Been married many years. I've lost hope and feel nothing....I just don't feel anything anymore.

My H had many suspicious OSF's, he's been cruel to me and been found to be a liar. I've tried to save the marriage, we did many MB's things...but failed in the end when I stopped insisting.

Tonight, he brought up all the complaints I have about him. Complaints that are based upon his behavior. Such as the use of porn, lying, involvement with other women. He acts (inexplicably) like it is somehow my fault that we have had to go through these horrors. He is outraged that a man who lies, is caught in porn, has numerous OSF's (which he conceals and lies about)drinks 4-5 nights a week, might have a wife who doesn't feel quite the same way about him that one she did.

Again, I just don't feel anything accept that I'm a sick to my stomach and wonder where my life went.

It's taken many years for him to destroy my love for him. I guess he's finally done. Weird how you don't know where the final line is going to be.

FYI, he has been agitated for 2 weeks or more; discontent, moody, irritable. It seems to me that something has brought his on. I don't know if I have another snooping stint in me.

Sound like an A to anybody else???


Thanks for your input,
SadMad

Have you posted here before?

Were either of you married when you met each other?

SadMad,
Your husband sounds like he could be my husband. I just want you to know that you have come to the perfect place for advice. Everyone here really wants to help those who need it. They will make you admit and own your own faults as well. It is hard at first, but it should get easier b/c you will want to correct your bad habits and behaviors that damage your relationship with others. You will also get the best advice in dealing with your WH. I am sorry that you are going through this difficult time. I can certainly identify. Our stories are eerily familiar. Hugs to you!!

Jedi, we were both single, 23 and 28 years old.

I'm guessing this has been a false recovery. It's been about 2 years since the last OSF. But the marriage has struggled and been pretty dead. My husband really resents the "box" he has to live in, which is how he characterizes a marriage with proper boundaries But that's not the only problem, it's just a small bit of what ails us. He has been angry for about 5 years about my interference with his life. He has always done as he pleased and the new marriage where I matter seems to grate on him, or something. He admits that he always did what he wanted and never considered me. He would say, I just never thought that you'd care about ___________ (name your poison). Now he hates running things by me. Like, should we buy the neighbors house? Why would I have an opinion about that? Hey, lets use your (the W's) retirement account to buy the house. Why, Why would I ever have an opinion about that!!!? Now I'm rambling....

Littlebit3,
Thank you for the sympathy and the encouragement. What happened in your marriage? Did it end as I'm thinking mine must?

SadMad

SadMad, the techniques here will show you how to clean up what you need to clean up and then set boundaries on how you will allow yourself to be treated.

Your H will either respond or not, and accordingly your next step will be more clear.

Having a plan will give you a purposeful goal and a light at the end of the tunnel. Things will either change or they won't. Either way, you will have a plan in place to get from under the situation you are in.

Lingering in a bad situation without a plan is a terrible thing to do to yourself.

Sunny,
I don't know which plan to choose. I don't know if I'm surviving an affair, divorcing, or what.

Nothing makes any sense to me anymore.

I don't know if I want to save the marriage. I think my Love Bank is closed. Don't know how to open it and if I did what would go inside. I can also say that I can't seem to love him or act loving. I'm not hostile I'm just not able to give anything. I'm frozen.

I really fought for the marriage in the past. My H sees no reason why that should be true, in other words, the marriage was fine by him as long as he did what he wanted. Anything that I experienced in the fallout of his lying, OSFs, neglect, doesn't move him in the least. He's just mad that the new way of life isn't fun anymore. He had a 20 year history of having friendships outside the marriage with other women where he got his EN met. I know that now but I didn't know it for most of the marriage. He told me many times that he didn't care what I thought or care how I felt. I tried to cope and adapt to a marriage that had some weird dynamics.....not knowing about these other women. We have battled ever since I found out and put a stop to it. He flatly refuses to call these friendships wrong. He agreed that it had to stop but resents it. I, on the other hand, must not have any male friends....not even casual conversation with my employers......he's very suspicious although there has never been any hint of impropriety on my part during the marriage. I always wondered why he was so explosive about other men, I suspect now that it was because he had no boundaries around women and assumed that I acted as he acted with the OS. Could be.

I have to say that having my H act so self-righteous and wrongly accused and badly treated is odd in the extreme. NO SENSE of how his conduct played into what our marriage is today.
Just baby-fits over his terrible life. Kinda sick of it.

Where do we fit on the MB's marriage-on-the-rocks timeline???

Any help is help appreciated. I'm lost and in danger of doing something rash-ish maybe .

Sadmad

Do you have children together? If so, then you would have a logical reason for trying to save your marriage. You are in withdrawal because your husband has committed many lovebusters and hasn't met your emotional needs. Furthermore, he doesn't follow the Policy of Joint Agreement, which is bound to create an unhappy marriage. Dr. Harley says that it actually takes very little to destroy romantic love - a few days of love busters is about all it takes.

I would snoop first to see if there is an A. It appears that he has a lifestyle of letting other women meet his ENs. So snoop quietly. Meanwhile, read up on love busters and make sure that you aren't doing any of them.

A great marriage takes both people adopting the marriage-building habits. Is it possible for you and your H to have a great marriage? Well, it IS possible, and you can start to prime the pump by reading all you can here and listening to the radio show. But your H will need to get on board, too.

Check out this article. Why Women Leave Men

You and your H should have Extraordinary Precautions in place to prevent an affair from happening. He should not have close friends who are women, because that's how most affairs begin.

But first, find out if he's having an affair. If he's having an affair, that's entirely its own strategy.

Have you read the When to Call It Quits article? Sometimes something rash-ish is the best hope your marriage has.

If I had kids together, I'd find out if there was an affair even if I didn't want him anymore, to bust it up so my kids didn't have to deal with him. Maybe even if I didn't have kids together I'd still bust it up so I don't have some woman I hardly know with a hand out looking for a piece of my retirement in my divorce nagging in his ear.

Wise words, I'm sure.

I have read most of Dr H's stuff and the web site all over and the radio show.

I'm guessing that I should plan A but I just don't seem able to muster the energy needed. I'll start the snooping. I think he has met someone at the gm. That's my gut.

Also he has a friend who dislikes me and this man was once a "counselor" to him at an old church. This man would believe NOTHING bad about my H and everything was my fault. I couldn't forgive well enough, I should forgive him and anytime he repeated an offense it should be to me as the first time...that would prove I was a good Christian. He believed my H when he said I was crazy. Yes, all the other women were just friends and I had to accept it. He agreed that some of the other women were not innocent (they were all single) but my H was just so darn fine that they couldn't help themselves...it wasn't his fault at all. Oh, he visits alone at their homes, calls them, is called by them, talks over the marriage with them (just for a female perspective, mind you), but again, it is not my H's fault at all. Sheesh. Also, if I were more secure in the relationship I wouldn't mind. I can tell you that was a rough time. I was even accused of having an affair with the M/C we were seeing. What was the evidence? Well, I told my H I wanted a separation at a counseling session and so I was signaling to the counselor that I would soon be available....yep, what else could it possible be?
This friend affirmed this idea since I was (in his words)a vulnerable woman. MY H was never a vulnerable man who put himself in many questionable situations...the only problem was how I handled it.
I won't have any contact with this man anymore and my H thinks I'm just out of line....he's a great man and loves us and me and the marriage. I don't know what to do with this disconnect. Untold damage was done to me and the marriage while my H was under this man's care. I once recorded my H in one of his rages....this man would not listen to it. He steadfastly maintained that my H just wasn't the screaming, lying, menacing kind...evidence be damned.

Then we were separated and I found MB's. I'm afraid many mistakes were made before.

Can you put spyware on him?

Brainhurts,

I have a keylogger. I have a spystick for his iphone. I don't find anything. I think he wouldn't use the same methods again.

I know he has had contact with his "counselor" friend and every time it seems to rile him up. They feed on one another and this man only ever hears what my H says and believes all. I haven't spoken to him in 3 years. I know his plan before was that they would fix me so my H could carry on. My H is a helper and just likes to help other women, again I had to learn to accept it.

I should also mention that this man was very disapproving of me working alone with other men. I work for 6 different companies and 4 of the owners are men. Sometimes....not very often at all....I will have to be in an office alone with an owner and this fact is very troubling to the men of the church. Never mind that I am and have been strictly professional, never a personal phone call, no chummy conversation, my stated rule that my H is always welcome in any office at any time. Nothing stops the suspicion. It's wholly unbelievable that I am guilty and he is innocent.

My H is very angry that I don't want anything to do with this man or his wife. I don't call them friends. It's another example of my unforgiving nature. I call it smart.

What about your concern with him meeting someone at the gym? Can you hire a PI?

Brainhurts,

My H's counselor friend is Ex-FBI and the only PI I know of in our smallish town.

Have you any experience in hiring a PI. What would I have them do?
Would he watch at the gym?

Could I trust a local PI knowing that that is probably a small world professionally??

Also,
I read all the When to call it quits and Why Women Leave over again. Interesting.

I plan on going home a rereading the ENQ and my H's answers. I will try the Plan A for a time. I don't know why the idea that it lasted for, say, a month and then it was over if your spouse doesn't come on board and start meeting your EN, was lost on me.
This sounds very difficult.

Is the idea that he will like the marriage if his needs are met and be motivated? I think one of his highest EN is admiration; namely the admiration of bunches of women, how can this be rectified? I'm really tired.

We have been separated 3 times in the last 5 years and that is not an option for me again. So, would I announce plan A after some time as a warning and if he moves not toward me I file for divorce?

I am foggy on the plan, but like, very much the idea of a plan.
Help.

You dont announce Plan A.
You just start doing it.

EDIT: PLan A and Plan B are specific plans designed for dealing with infidelity.
You need to snoop and find out if he is having an affair first.

Is he having an affair with the friend "counselor" who thinks he's so fine?

DQ,

Well, the counselor friend is also a male...not unheard of but I don't think so. (yikes)

Did get the PI. Found that he works out each morning and does spend quite a lot of time talking with one woman, the PI has not found that they meet outside he gym but they spend a good hour each morning in animated conversation. Sounds like a lovely way to start the day out right! It is my guess that they are developing a close friendship, which would fit the pattern. Also, it would put the marriage (again) in competition with this exciting new friendship. I just can't do this again....I don't even know what to do....

I can tell you what to do: Read SURVIVING AN AFFAIR.
One of the case examples used in the book is an emotional affair in the gym.

They can have no further contact and he can lo longer go to the gym unless you agree to go with him

Do you want to save your marriage?

I'm not sure what I want to do.

I do feel defeated and weary and foolish.

I have to take the weekend to pray and think.

I started a fund 2 years ago after reading MB's and it was suggested that planning your separation was wise. I am so grateful that I followed this advice. I can escape.

SadMad

I don't know what you were advised, but Dr. Harley recommends that wives separate from their husbands if the husband will not end the affair.
He does not recommend waiting 2 years. He typically recommends a 2-3 week wait time and then separation during an affair.

However, you need to expose this affair.

Jedi,
I haven't waited 2 years, it's been 2 years since the last "friendship", which was a EA (although he will not call it so). He has a string (8-10) of these improper relationships which involve lying about them, hiding them, telling other women about the marriage (just for their perspective, you understand).

I have saved money for 2 years since my H was not on-board with MB and so I suspected that one day he would be as the dog who returns to its vomit.

Also, is it an affair if he's talking to someone at the gym? I agree that it is leading to another dangerous friendship but I'd not call it an affair just yet.

We have been through so many of these OSF over the years that I think I have to accept that he will never stop. He loves women to love/admire him. He needs it like a drug and doesn't care what it does to me or the marriage, he also thinks that the only thing wrong with them is that I don't like them. So, if I would go back to the old way it was where I didn't know and he wasn't telling....well, things would be peachy.

I don't know of this is a good reason for a divorce but I just can't seem to want to "fight" for him or the marriage.

So, with that said, what should I expose?

SadMAd

Dr. Harley says if your spouse make can't feel safe in your marriage then that is a reason to separate.

When you've given Dr. Harley's EPs to him, what does he do?

The affair at the gym should be exposed as an affair.
Dr. Harley refers to it as an emotional affair and one of the cases in his book Surviving an Affair is about a gym affair.

My husband had a dojo/gym affair. It was a so-called friendship and also nothing to it, except he could no longer be present or treat me with thoughtfulness and care. So that says its an EA.

Like your husband, my husband clung to the 'its no big deal' since he was enjoying the good feeling he was getting from the associated perception of himself in the so-called mirror these OW hold up.

They get so self centered and our culture loves these guys for their charming ways. They give their best to everyone but you and create an uneven competitive playing field due to their lack of boundaries or precautions around other women.

Frankly, the "I give up" space you are in is a good thing. I got to his point and for me this was my awakening. A willingness to give up everything even the marriage as it had become. I knew we had to start over. Create a new marriage. A marriage of extraordinary care. A MB marriage.

A Bible passage kept popping into my head: Matt 7:6 Do not give what is holy to dogs, or throw your pearls before swine, lest they trample them underfoot, and turn and tear you to pieces.

A very graphic picture of what I was internally living out while my husband indulged himself!

I see plan A is a bit like 'showing off your pearls' in front of the swine. Its the 'renters' approach thrown back at 'em. But by all means you are not throwing your 'pearls' into your husband pig pen.

I recommend NOT joining this particular gym or even another gym to attend with your husband. I tried this and trust me this is throwing your pearls in to the pen. (Too many triggers for you) Put your best self on display in some other fashion that will not engage your husbands hyper-sensitivies.

And give yourself a timeline...

And as you know, go to plan B if the relationship remains unsafe for you as in--your husband and his friends tearing you to pieces.

Graceful,

I read your post and then couldn't get it out of my mind AND couldn't reread it either. It stunned me, awakened me, grieved me. I felt like you saw into me.

I have been thinking and praying for the last 2 weeks. I'm haunted by the gut feeling your post delivers.

I cannot do anything like plan A. I cannot. I cannot follow to the gym, I cannot make myself available, tender, complimentary,
I cannot save this marriage alone and haven't the energy to fight the impending death.

If I understand you, you think plan A is throwing pearls before swine. Do you mean that the trying again IS the pearl, after having tried so many times and having extinguished EA's before and having promises that they would not happen again? I feel somehow diminished by the thought of trying to entice my H into wanting a good marriage, or wanting to keep/honor his word, or wanting me.

I don't know what to do beside leave, nothing else seems dignified or respectful.

SadMad,

Dr. Harley would encourage you to expose the affair and enter Plan B.

SAdMad,
Did not mean to haunt you!

In my own thoughts /imagination regarding Matt 7:6 and plan A w/gym type EA---

Pearls= You
"Throw"= do a plan A where you in a sense are making yourself 'compete' w/OW in their playing field to draw your husband away. Plus begging him to stop.

Rather then throw yourself (too exhausting):
Do a plan A with your dignity in tact. Throwing yourself at your husband would be many things that are apparently unattractive to your husband. You know, begging him to stop the independent behavior. Pointing out his cruelty and disrespectful intentions toward you. All true of course. But why lower yourself and beg a swine?

Rather expect him to perform an upgrade to continue in the marriage. Be 'The Pearl.' Be kind. Thoughtful. Caring. Confident. Towards yourself and humanity in general including your husband.

And expose the affair because its the helpful thing to do.

You have to be a Renter in your own marriage now before you can resume/or enjoy being a Buyer.

Its going to take time. It may or may not work. I nearly gave up myself w/good reason. We're still rebuilding. But no more dojo and poor boundaries. My husband was stubborn and did not like to take in all the MB advice either. He used to say he was only in charge of his own happiness. Didn't perceive he had to worry about mine either. Entrenched in IB. It took a lot for him to understand how risky his little friendships and my triggers around dojo world were to everything we had together. For along time he liked this edgy stuff.