Poll: Those that are divorced, does the betrayer every realize what they have lost?

Just wondering if there are any ex-spouses out there that want to come back. I guess this is possible, but it doesn't seem to happen very often.

I was talking to a few casual friends about this who are divorced. All of their H wanted to come back. Two of them said forget it, one remarried someone else after she told her xH to forget it and another 2 are thinking about getting back together with their xh.I don't know if this is the norm or not. But I wanted to ask them their opinion and how they felt about taking back their H or moving on with out them.

Well, my D hasn't even been final for 2 months yet. I don't talk to my X except once a month (when the loan payments are late). I have only seen him once, to exchange some stuff, and he wouldn't even look me in the eye. Honestly, I don't think he will ever realize what he has lost.... and right now, even if he did and he said he wanted to come back, I'd say no.B------------------ There are deep sorrows and killing cares in life, but the encouragement and love of friends were given us to make all difficulties bearable. -- John Oliver HolmesThe opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference. -- Elie Wiesel

Hi I know someone who left his wife and family for the Ow. Within 12 months he realised he had made a huge mistake but by that time his wife had met someone else and it was too late.I think this happens quite a bit actually.

While my situation has been going on a year, we decided to divorce within the last 3 months. To tell you the truth, I seriously doubt he will ever want to come back to me. He seems pretty determined that I am all wrong for him. And I don't know that I disagree. If I make him this unhappy, we probably aren't right for each other. There is also his massive ego to consider. He has a very hard time admitting when he makes a mistake. I'll let you know if he ever decides he wants to come back, but I wouldn't hold my breath.------------------ Blessed be. **************** KeridwenKeridwen_7@yahoo.com

Hi, Well, my one set of neighbors, the H left the W for OW and was gone one year. They got back together, and are seeming to be OK. Another set of friends, split up one year, got back together and two years later split again, they are now seeing other people and in the middle of divorce.My other friend who is female left for OM. She has no intentions of going back and I would bet money they'll never reconcile.My H left me and I see no signs this time of him coming back, but last time this happened, a year later, he did come back.This time, its not a matter of him coming back, I've been down this road before. Its a never ending cycle. Look at Lor and Guard. Its hard to be on the same page at the same time. I think almost all men go back to their wife, or at least try a year or two down the road. I think a lot of women who leave, never actually go back. I have seen this in books, and in real life.There are no guarantees, and we all have our doubts. I like to think that what is meant to be, is meant to be. Thats why I gave up plan a, and started living life for me. I don't care if my STBX hates me, it hurts a little, but I don't want him back. I do want to see him fail miserably at this relationship, just because I have suffered because of him. Is it wrong, yes, but I'll admit to it.The betrayer, usually wants the betrayed back AFTER the betrayed gives up and finds someone new. Or is interested in other people. Have seen it time and time again, even on this board as well.Dana

I think it depends, but since you sent your question out mentioning betrayers; I take it you are talking an affair. I think if your H is in love with the OP then chances are slim he'll want to come back. If things don't work out between the betrayer and the OP and he comes back, I'd be cautious there too. I know for me, it would be very hard to trust his motives then. There are other variables to consider too, but if your spouse doesn't love you I think it's safe to do your best and move on.

Everything I have read indicates that upwards of 85% of MEN regret having left their wives. Even if an OP is involved - especially, actually... my feeling is that for men most times, an OP is involved if they leave. On the other hand, women tend to leave after they've exhausted all efforts and have nothing left to give to the relationship. They don't come back.Just what I've read and seen here and on other forums. ------------------ terri I can see clearly now, the rain is gone ...

I am probably one of the odd female betrayers, as I would jump back in a minute. My daughters want us back together (they are 4 and 5), and we are both great parents, just lousy together as lovers. I would want to try again and see if we can get a spark back. I regret leaving him.

I would love to know the answer to this. From what I have read it seems to take approx. 2 years for the ex to regret their decision. My question is what happens in that amount of time that changes their minds. My H left me and baby for OW. I tried to tell him, he is experincing a great passion, but that it would probaly not last & then he would wish he could have his family back, but then it would be to late. So anyone out there with experience, what do you think finally makes then regret it. (if they do regret it)

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>On the other hand, women tend to leave after they've exhausted all efforts and have nothing left to give to the relationship. They don't come back.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>My wife claims she has exhausted all efforts, but her efforts were short casual conversations on the way to going to work, never sitting down and saying that she was hurting, but always telling me I was doing something wrong. Even now if I say something about her LBing, she might apologize, or just disagree and walk away, ive seen both.The last serious conversation she sat me down for was the way I dressed for my parents, and I didn't interpret it as discussing our relationship, should I have?My wife has an EA with someone for a while, until I got her into individual counseling, than the EA appeared to stop, but no progress towards reconciliation. She said whe wanted a divorce and then waited for something to happen. Undoubtably for me to do something, as I have always done as much as I could for her, but in these situations, do most of the departing women really believe that, or are they using it as justification?just curious. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

[Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Tulip,Just some observations of my wife's family: her mother left the family for an affair when she was 40 years old. The affair didn't last long, it was an abusive and unhappy relationship. She spent the next 30 years, right up to her death, regretting it. She craved to be part of the family, missing Christmasses, birthdays, etc. She spun a hundred lies about why the marriage ended, never admitting the truth.My mother-in-law never forgave herself, my father-inlaw never got over it, and her children never forgave her either.Yes, sometimes they regret it bitterly.

I actually think that if a betrayer is going to change their mind and want to go back it happens a lot sooner then 2 years later. I would think it's more likely to happen in the first year or so. I think that the more time that goes by the lesser the chance. For instance, I am one that married the other man. The first year is the hardest (just like any marriage). Not only do you adjust to each other, but we had to adjust to the roles of being step parents and having ex spouses. The first year he also knew that if he wanted to go back his ex would welcome him, no questions asked. She called him frequently and I guess you could say she "applied the plan A". Now, 3 years later our lives have settled down and we are closer now then we have ever been. So, I think the more time that goes by the less chance that they'll come back.

Somewhat differently, my wife had an EA and wants a D because of it. However, she claims, and right now she does not have an OM, but stills wants a D because of the type of people she works with.This is what I find confusing is that she will be working during the day, and usually 3-5 nights per week also, and wants a D. So how will she spend any quality time with the kids? as well as being obsessive compulsive about exercise, 1-3 hours per day needed, I must think there is an OM involved somehow?One reason she uses for not needing an H is that she has a 10 bedroom house given to her as a condition of employment, with utilities provided, as well as food when needed. So why struggle with an outsider to her community when she has everything she thinks she needs?Sometimes, I just don't get it.

BonnieSept,If everything is going so well for you, then why are you here and on the infidelity board? To convince the betrayed spouses that they should give up, as many suggested you intended by what you posted many months ago on the infidelity board? (something about why would anyone want to take the betrayer back, if I remember correctly). I noticed that after the brouhaha that that post produced, you disappeared from the infidelity board for quite awhile.

Oh I didn't disappear, I just post more on the emotional or divorced boards. I also stated many times that I do not encourage people to toss in the towel and I have never encouraged that. In fact, I have told many who have marriages in trouble to come over to marriage builders because of the people over here that I think could help them. I didn't tell this poster to file either, I simply answer the question. I talk to a few of the posters who have posted under the infidelity boards via e-mail. There is definately a time when the marriage is "over" and some of the posters who want out of their marriage are afraid to post it because they feel like under no circumstances should they ever end their marriage ( is the opinion of some) and they'd be blasted in asking for support with their decision. I've also posted over and over how affairs are wrong and how it hurts many involved. I've stressed that you should get out of your marriage because there problems, not because of another person. When I divorce my first husband I was NOT involved with the OM. I had broken it off so that he could work on his marriage. My decision to divorce was based strictly on what my marriage had been like for years, how I felt about my ex and the insane way that he reacted upon my telling him of my affair. He had an affair days after I told him of my affair and because of his actions he is now living a miserable life. I do come on these boards really trying to warn people of what can happen.

Hopefully, you have stressed insurmountable problems? and that is open to interpretation of the individual. With certain communication barriers, simple problems become insurmountable, yet, the real problem lies with the communication, which for the most part is fixable. I am being asked for a D because the communication is poor mostly from the W's side who is wanting the D.

All problems are insurmountable if there is an OP involved - and it doesn't much matter if the affair is active or not - until withdrawal is over, the OP is still there in the mind of the betrayer, affecting ever decision that is made.BonnieSept,I find it a bit inconsistent that you say that you do not advise people to throw in the towel, and that your decision to divorce had nothing to do with the OM when your post last summer said: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I chose to walk from my marriage for a few reasons. One was the obvious fact that I loved the om and not my husband. Another reason was the tremendous work it would take in getting my husband to forgive me, if he ever could or would. Lastly, it was obvious to me that there was something wrong in my marriage for me to have an affair anyways and I had been unhappy for some time, so I felt I needed to go at it on my own. Once this decision was made for me a tremendous burden was lifted off of my shoulders and I started to live for the first time in a long time. I know I could never have worked it out with my ex husband after my affair. His hate and anger was so strong that he started to make me feel the same way toward him and I didn't want that. Two hating each other does the children no good.What I mean by my babbling is that I wonder if some of you would be happier in the long run and your spouse happier in the long run if you threw in the towel.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>[This message has been edited by Nellie1 (edited April 19, 2000).]

Nellie,You said to BonnieSept....."I find it a bit inconsistent that you say that you do not advise people to throw in the towel, and that your decision to divorce had nothing to do with the OM when your post last summer said:" quote: (from BonnieSept) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I chose to walk from my marriage for a few reasons. One was the obvious fact that I loved the om and not my husband. Another reason was the tremendous work it would take in getting my husband to forgive me, if he ever could or would. Lastly, it was obvious to me that there was something wrong in my marriage for me to have an affair anyways and I had been unhappy for some time, so I felt I needed to go at it on my own. Once this decision was made for me a tremendous burden was lifted off of my shoulders and I started to live for the first time in a long time. ---------- She is saying that she had been unhappy for a long time and needed to go at it on her own. She told her OM to see if he could make it work with his W. She didn't give him any ultimatims or encourage him to leave. BonnieSept feels better knowing she didn't make her decision to divorce her husband because of OM.I followed BonnieSept's posts for several months before I asked her if I could correspond with her through email. My reason was because she sees the total picture. She experienced an affair. She experienced ending it. She experienced being away from her Husband and took the time to know her feelings. Before OM ever came into the picture she wasn't happy with her marriage. She stayed with him alot longer than she wanted to.Yet, she never once encouraged me to forget my husband and be with my OM. I've told her how unhappy I'd been my entire marriage. I told her how nice my husband was to me and was a terrific father to our children. She knows all about my relationship with my OM (we are both divorced now). She tells me to not make any decisions right now. Her advice always looks at the total picture. She values marriage as well as values people's personal happiness and peace. BonnieSept is right. I am hesitant to post sometimes because of getting attacked by all the betrayed. They ask questions wanting answers they want to hear. They are in too much pain to handle possible negative opinions about staying in a marriage. As important as marriage vows are, it doesn't mean you should stay married if two people don't love each other. It doesn't mean you should ever cheat just because you aren't happy in your marriage either. Nothing can justify cheating on your spouse.Sorry, I see I'm getting off in a different direction than originally intended. Just wanted to give BonnieSept credit for helping me with some of my questions and I've enjoyed her open mind and honesty.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>As important as marriage vows are, it doesn't mean you should stay married if two people don't love each other.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>First of all, YES IT DOES. Nowhere in my vows did my H or I say anything about "until one of us decides he/she doesn't love the other one anymore."Second, If you love someone (not just "in love", you do not stop loving them. EVER. Third, the whole point of Harley's philosophy is that the feelings of love that appear to be missing can be restored. BonnieSept came right out and said that one of the reasons she left her H was because she loved the OM - how can she or anyone else therefore claim that the OM had nothing to do with her leaving her marriage? And your saying that she stayed a lot longer than she wanted to is hardly additional justification.

I'm gonna get back to the original intention of this thread [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

. I just posted kind of a blistering response to momof2. This bleeds into it. I still like my XW, but with time away and some perspective, I see things much differently than a year and a half ago. IMHO, staying in "Plan A" too long is dangerous, dillusional. I know some folks make mistakes, but after a fair amount of time it becomes apparent that maybe it's not so much a mistake as it is a character flaw. My XW and I "needed" too much. If you have these kinds of issues, the other person will always disapoint you. I have followed the rule of not getting involved with another woman during this transition, it's paid huge dividends. I have moments where I go back ad touch the hurt, but for the most part I think it would be a bad idea to get back together just to soothe them. Ther has to be real change, not just need..Eric

I know a guy I play basketball with, whose w left him and lived with her boss. They ended up divorcing. She later returned home and is living with her xh, but they have not remarried. I don't know what the time frame is. They have been living together at least a year.BonnieSept & decisiontimeYou both are saying what my x has said. That she was unhappy in our marriage for at least 10 yrs. Funny thing is, she never mentioned it to me or any of her girl friends. However when om showed up, everything became clear to her that she had to get out of the marriage.My counselor called this an exit affair. My x wanted out of the marriage and didn't know how. Then the affair happened, and I'm not saying she had it intentionally, but this gave her the reason to get out. Now I think she is afraid to be alone so she is stuck with the guy. I also think her pride is too strong to attempt to come back as she made two feeble attempts before, one lasted about 5 hrs and the other a week.

Hilly,My H left me to live with OW. He would still tell me that he loved me and knew the right thing to do would be to come home, but he felt that he was "stuck". He felt that he was obligated to her now even though he wasn't sure if he loved her. Every time I asked about a divorce, he wouldn't answer. Finally, I gave him an ultimatum. Told him that if he didn't leave her now, that I was going the next day to file for separation. What really got him motivated though was that I told him that I was lonely and needed someone. That I would get second looks from other guys and felt like doing something about it. He said that he couldn't take it if I was with someone else, so he left her! He finally realized that I wouldn't wait for him anymore, so he took the steps he needed to work things out with me.

Justme, what happened between you and your husband is very common if there is still loving feelings in the betrayers heart. You said your husband told you he still loved you but felt stuck. The choice you made to tell him you were not going to just sit around and wait for him to change his mind was a very wise one in your situation. I have two girlfriends who had husbands cheating on them. One didn't move out but stayed in the basement while still going out and seeing the ow. The other moved into his own apartment so he could see the ow when ever he wanted. Both told their wives that they still loved them but they needed to resolve their feelings for the ow. Both of these women told their husband's the same thing that you did and when faced with the reality of divorce they both came home with their tails between their legs. Good luck to you!

BonnieSept: The bottom line is that you don't KNOW if you and your husband could have reconciled after your affair. You made assumptions that are not provable either way, and are presenting them here as fact.Statistical evidence collected by professional marriage therapists and others very explicitly indicates that the feelings of regret for ending a marriage due to infidelity can take as much as 5 years to really surface, although the average is between 6 months and 2 years.You are using only yourself as an example - while some may say you are doing so as justification for your own actions, it doesn't really matter. You are only ONE example - countless others have been counted and they are the vast majority.This is not intended as a slam in any way - just trying to put this into perspective.------------------ terri I can see clearly now, the rain is gone ...

I have to agree with RWD.It took OM's coaching to make my W realise she'd been unhappy"for years".Funny,she never asked me if I was happy.I suppose I could of had an affair,too,based on that thinking.It isn't your spouse's job to make you happy.I've had some unhappiness over the years,but I didn't blame it all on my W. I think she had an exit affair,too.I'm sure OM convinced her if she cheated on me,I'd kick her out of the house.Only after she had an affair,were our differences insurmountable.The marriage counseler couldn't even find any major problems except W being in love with BoyToy.I just got"traded in"for a newer model.Now I'm just an old Chevy in the boneyard that nobody wants! --Murph

My stbx wrote me a letter about a week before moving out. In it he still claims to love me and that he will take care of me for the rest of my life.Then down the line he says that he had not loved me in about 2 years.....then farther down the line...he has not loved me in 7 years......at the Custody evaluators......he had not loved me in a long time. Our marriage was empty.....Of course like a few others on this post....I was never aware of his unhappiness....not until I found out about OW.In 4 months is our final divorce hearing/custody hearing. He hates me.....will never come back....nor am I sure I want him to come back.I hate all of thisIt all boils down to the fact:Affairs suck They hurt innocent people They ruin families They are one of the most horrible things someone can do to a person who loves them Children sufferWhat I have learned is that most wayward spouses have not a clue how unhappy they are in their marriages until someone tells them, shows them and continues to persuade them that they can find happiness with them.PERIODNancy

Nancy: BINGO! Very Well Said! Sad but true!Missy2

ah yes, indifference. There is something wrong with these non-feelers. a searing of conscious or as the scripture says given over to a reprobate mind. hopefully there will be repentance and sorrow but many have worked so hard to achieve just these ends.

We have to face it many are receiving what they have worked overtime to achieve. they wanted out and they have done whatever necessary to achieve dissolution. maybe some regret but do they regret enough to take the time and steps to affect a cure. Indifference is the nail in the coffin.

ah yes, indifference. There is something wrong with these non-feelers. a searing of conscious or as the scripture says given over to a reprobate mind. hopefully there will be repentance and sorrow but many have worked so hard to achieve just these ends.

Why is it that the betrayers find it so difficult to leave OP - when apparently they had no such difficulty leaving their spouses?!?!? Why is it so easy to leave someone you took vows with, and spent a good portion of your life with, maybe even had children with, but so difficult to leave someone with whom you are having a relationship that is based on lies and cheating? I guess I will never understand!!!

HI All, My two cents: Nancy said:"What I have learned is that most wayward spouses have not a clue how unhappy they are in their marriages until someone tells them, shows them and continues to persuade them that they can find happiness with them." I really feel this is true in MOST cases too! In mine we never had a "perfect" marriage, but neither one of us ARE perfect! I was busy working AND trying to start a business that would allow us a MUCH better life AND more time together. My W felt Lonely, Depressed and alone. I see this much clearer now. She tried a lot of different things to "get my attention" One of them being getting her nails done. She waited for me to notice. I didn't. She cried on OM shoulder. He'd tell her how Beautiful her nails looked and how beautiful she was and how she wasn't getting old (he's 61!!) and all that crap! ALL HE HAD TO DO WAS WAIT FOR ME TO MAKE A MISTAKE and BANG!!! He'd JUMP all over it. Let's face it. The OP in our wayward spouses lives HAD a HUGE advantage (I said HAD, I'll get to that) over us because they didn't have to GUESS what our S's needs were!! They just had to LISTEN to what they complained about and DO THE OPPOSITE!!!! HOW EASY IS THAT!! Making HUGE Love Deposits all the way down the line!! With NO REAL LIFE OBSTACLES EITHER!! What a CAKE WALK!!! We, on the other hand were expected to KNOW what they wanted by some sort of SOUL MATE connection!! OK, if we listened as well as OP we would have known BUT, WE WERE DEALING WITH KIDS, JOBS, MONEY ISSUES, LEAKY ROOFS, FLAT TIRES, COLDS, FAMILY ISSUES ETC.... ALL they had to do (OP) was sit back listen for the hour or two they SNUCK in together and tell our spouses WHAT THEY WANTED TO HEAR!!! As a result, in the fog, our S's think they have found the person who UNDERSTANDS THEM BETTER THAN ANYONE!! Their "best friend" their "soul mate"!! All the while the OP just PLAYS THE PART. SMOKE AND MIRRORS, THAT'S AN AFFAIR. Now I said I'd get back to "HAD" the advantage. This "charade" can't last forever. OP starts to "slip up" make mistakes, become HUMAN for God's sake!! For those who have hardly any contact with S, this may be good because NOW OP has to "wing" it with NO NEGATIVE BLUEPRINT to PLAY against!! PLUS, they let down their defenses because they THINK they've WON the WAR!! BIG MISTAKE for those OP that have a spouse here that "USES THE PRINCIPALS" of MB They are now dealing with a NEW and IMPROVED (hopefully) Spouse that KNOWS how to deposit Love into their S's bank and (hopefully) NOT make any (real) WITHDRAWALS. One that provides a "safe" alliterative and slowly becomes LESS to blame for the EA/PA. As time goes on and OP shows who they REALLY are, a POOR SUBSTITUTE for the H or W left behind (at least MOST OP seem to be a "DOWNGRADE" from the S from what I've read from betrayers here) They just "ARTIFICIALLY" and with tricks and a phony front, made the wayward spouse "Feel Good" OR fall in love with them. IF the wayward spouse hasn't made too many "Withdrawals" Or the betrayed hasn't done the same with too many LBs, there can be reconciliation. I KNOW, there has to be LOVE right. Well, when all the smoke and mirrors are taken down as long as there is a TINY spark, Love can grow out of; Relief that the wayward spouse came back for the betrayed and the relief of anger for the betrayer for the betrayed after realizing that we "stuck it out inspite" and we are HUMAN and never meant to hurt them to begin with. AND one more thing, the AFFAIR made a DEEP DEEP line in the sand in the Marriage and THAT was when the REAL breakdown came about!! WHEW!! I'm sorry for the LONG post!! GOOD LUCK & PRAYERS FRANK ------------------ desperate "If yesterday didn't stop today, Why should TODAY stop tomorrow??" "Wisdom is why!!"

Please Help,But there are fewer sources of stress with the OP. The betrayer doesn't have to worry much about his kids, and she takes care of hers. And if his kids are a problem, well, she just tells him to see less of them. And he doesn't really have to worry much about home repair, etc., since it isn't his house, and anyway, she's got plenty of money to hire someone to take care of any problems. All he has to worry about most days is going to work. He doesn't have to worry about taking care of the kids on a day-to-day basis; he can just take them fun places. He can come home and relax - no one asking him to read them a story, no young kids making noise. Of course the OW has an advantage - the betrayer is on perpetual vacation with few financial worries. How can anyone compete with that?

Nellie, You are so right....and my d told me ow told her "well your dad and mom fight" Yes we did voice our differences, and not always agree about child rearing. Of course when ow entered the picture, H found fault with everything at home...me, kids, friends, what we did...so there was nothing to please him....and ow just fed into this and the more she "adored him and put him on a pedestal because of how much he made financially" the more he wanted the same adoration from me, which could not be as it is so warped and twisted as to what our relationship was UNTIL ow entered the picture.So...I do not think my H will ever regret what he lost and will still lose as he wants and has his TROPHY...something I never was, did not do not and will not be for anyone, most of all myself.

I think some betrayers might get divorced anyway and some affairs are exit affairs. Also my therapist told me that there is already something very wrong in a marriage (at least with one of the partners anyway) for one person to fall deeply in love with someone else, not just in lust or short term but deeply in love. Of course the problem is that the unhappy spouse doesn't communicate it to the other spouse and then makes the totally wrong choice of having an affair rather than communicating. But also my therapist told me that the poor communication is usually there in the marriage for a long time prior to the affair and that both marriage partners have had a part in that problem. I do agree with what one other poster said which is that no one can force someone to be controlled. Nellie the OW may be behind some suggestions and probably is but it is your H who goes along with it and he doesn't have to. At a certain point either the fantasy ends or it isn't a fantasy anymore. What it may be is less stressful and a copout on responsibilities but its definitely not a fantasy. Everyone knows about it and it's real. So I think that Wilbok and Nellie, your H's fall in the cop-out and abandoning responsibilities catagory now. What do you think? Now in my case, he will never go back but I think he did do the real work he had to do. I think while their is no excuse for the affair many who post here would be glad if their spouses did what he and I did. Which was express true remorse for our behavior and to end the affair with no contact. Then he worked on the marriage and he had no idea I would still be available. In fact I made sure he understood that I would be getting on with my life. Now here is what I think did happen. I think the affair exposed a lot of issues and problems that really couldn't be solved even with effort and therapy. Before the affair they were all swept under the rug. They had very bad communication. This was both their faults. I don't think he will ever regret making the decision to divorce but I know he will always regret the affair as will I.Del

What started as "a reward" for H, took over his life. The affair was only part of his problems....the cop out and lack of financial reality and responsibility, the lack of wanting to be a parent for the "daily-grind", etc etc is all part of HIS MLC....not his "fantasy," but very real indeed to him and our children and myself.Ow simply exasberated the problems by clinging to him and is his trophy and when the divorce eventually occurs will be the trophy wife...and who knows for how long. . He has what I believe must be FOR HIM the "perfect life" and he is angry that I have put some legal challenges his way so that the divorce and settlement is not turning out financially the way he believed it would as well as needed it to be for the lifestyle he desires to be workable.This is such a mess. H is a sugar daddy to ow, uncle dad to his 4 kids and a pathetic excuse as a REAL dad, when push comes to shove. One can cop out of the "former life" but the results cannot be controlled by the person who does this. Real life does get in the way of these people's fantasy, ..but I do not think he will ever revert to the flawed, but "sane" person I loved.

Delphi,I find it really hard to believe that problems can be simultaneously ignored for decades yet so severe that no amount of effort can overcome them. At the very least, if that were the case, families, and especially children, WOULD be better off if their parents ignored their problems.Some authors assert that lack of communication is just an excuse. People don't communicate when they don't want to communicate - often because they want to hide either their actions or their feelings. If people really want to communicate, they can. Lack of communication is not necessarily the fault of both marriage partners - I was somehow supposed to know that the times I asked my H what was wrong when he seemed irritable or whatever, and he denied that anything was wrong, I should have been able to tell that he was lying? I should have somehow known when his input to decisions consisted of "I don't know what we should do" that he did in fact have an opinion, and I should have been able to guess what it was? I should have known that he wanted me to go back to work, when he said on several occasions that he didn't like the idea of having the kids in daycare? I should have known that he never got over being angry about anything, and would hold everything I ever did that he didn't like against me for the rest of my life? You can't effectively communicate with someone who goes out of his way to NOT be open. Either that, or these problems were not really major problems until the OW came into the picture and he rewrote the history of our marriage. And there is not necessarily something wrong with the marriage - often their is something wrong with the betrayer - whether it be self-esteem issues, depression or whatever. And if the depressed person exhibits depression in the form of constant irritability and disrespect for their partner, it is unlikely that the partner will constantly respond with unfailing understanding. Often if one person doesn't feel good about himself, no one can change that over the long term.

I think Nellie is right. It is about the betrayer having low self-esteem. Nothing you can say or do will help. They have to figure it out for themselves. Some people do choose to look at their lives and take responsibility. Others prefer to hide their head in the sand and blame their spouse for everything. That is what my H seems to want to do. He tells me OW says he is perfect and loves everything about him. Its fantasy talk. We all can see that but, he doesnt want to see the truth. Nothing in our marriage was so terrible that it couldnt have been worked out until OW came on the scene. It is just easier for him to believe her fantasy than face reality. I think he will eventually take a very big fall. A lot of these betrayers will. When I describe what he wants to people they can all see the folly in it. But, to the two in the affair it all makes sense. Will they ever regret. Probably. But, I think for some it will just be too hard for them to admit they screwed up. They will either go on unhappy with OW or move on to their next big mistake. Unless they deal with the baggage they carry around and accept responsibility for it then they will continue to try and find people that will make them feel good; for as long as it will last. It is a very sad way to live your life. As lonely and hard as it seems right now, I think it is better to be mentally healthy and alone than in a unhealthy relationship with one of these desperate people. I hope and pray that my H will choose to face reality and see that I am here to love and support him (for real) than choose his fantasy. I pray that all our spouses wake up before it is too late. Lisa

I did say that my therapist said that something is wrong with the marriage or with one of the partners, maybe not both the partners. But if you look at it that something is wrong with one of the partners, like they are imature or will not communicate, then something is wrong with the marriage because this person is in the marriage and you are married to him! I do think that not all problems can be worked out. I do think that sometimes people ignore problems and live life on the surface without ever dealing with the real underneath problems and why they are unhappy. I think sometimes a crisis like an affair or even an accident, a death of a loved one, or many other things can sometimes force issues to the surface. Now maybe this is just me because I never had anyone really tell me this as a professional, but I don't think people really change. I think that they are who they are and that maybe sometimes the traits we don't like become more apparant as time goes on. But those traits were always there. They just weren't dominent. What does everyone else thing of this?Del

Lack of communication, I am an expert on listening to that.W came home and said "Will you take s & d to school Friday, and pick them up?" I said, "Yes, so what's going on?" W said, "My aunt passed away and I am going to the service Friday, 3 hour drive." Aunt was seen twice at most in 15 years.W came back from service visibly upset and angry that I should have driven her. Now where do you understand that in the above communication? Not only that, why was the aunt's passing not the first topic of the conversation? Is everything a guess test?Its been like that over 15 years. I was at home busy working on a behind project from work, 3 months behind, and W said, "I am going to get gas." W comes back visibly upset that I let her go and didn't get it for her. Did I miss the question? Did I not trust her ability to put gas in the tank? Did I know ther were going to be creepy people at that particular time?am I to blame for ALL wife's unforeseen unhappiness?oh please, understudies of marriage builders, am I missing something? Is complying with direct requests failing the test?thl

I think Delphi is right about the traits always being there.My W was always overly outgoing,sometimes outspoken,impulsive,and irresponsible.When we were younger,these traits showed up from time to time,but most of the time they weren't there. As she got older,these traits became more dominant and sometimes overbearing.As I look back on our marriage,it seems so clear this is what happened.The last few years,she became more independent,outspoken,and had a nonchalant indifference towards me,as if she were somehow"better than me". It makes me wonder,why some people stay the same,and some people tend to change,or get worse as they get older?In my W's case,it now seems that she really didn't change,just that her bad traits became more dominant.I almost feel sorry for her next husband.Almost. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

--Murph

Delphi: My H and I used to communicate to let our feelings etc be known...maybe not in the best way, but we certainly never skirted any issue and there was conflict which we did resolve (kids, lifestyle etc.) UNTIL OW entered the picture. At that point things started to fall apart and H's personality was no longer tempered by "common sense and responsibility to family" within the context of his and my personalities.In fact I kept on asking him "what was wrong" as nothing I or the kids did was acceptable and H was very short tempered (usually my domain!). He wanted no part of our life...wanted to live a "bachelor and/or child free existance" which he now has with ow." Something that he was VERY scornful and judgemental of before when he heard of others who had gone this route.What made him change, not his basic personality, but the priorities in his life....no doubt OW and the "famtasy" from responsibility she has provided.The joke is that this "prince", who refused to help in the home with childrens' appointments, homework or any real stuff with kids is now cleaning, cooking etc is now doing it all...cooking, cleaning up etc for the 2 of them, while ow sits and drinks wine as she is too tired etc !!!(she, at 28 years old, barely works and has her child (12 years old) visit every other weekend!)In the mean time H THINKS he has it all, but while it is not a fantasy for anyone in my family, I may have the harder job in terms of the kids, but I do have the real relationship with them which I do be;lieve that he does not, and that is what is important to me....his fantasy is that his relationship with the kids has not changed...............only time will tell, but they all know who was there for them!

Communication is both spouses responsibility and what can you do if one person is a very poor communicator or won't at all? Sometimes nothing, I guess. I mean if a person is a brick wall, what can you do? Wilbok, it does seem pretty strange for your H to go from being responsible to not responsible. Is there anything else going on like addictions or depression?

Delphi: Just the whole classic case of MLC.. He did not deal with his parents death 16 and 13 years ago and is approaching the age when they became ill, he is on a power trip and believes he is entitled to all rewards of his business success including financial sucess for himself, forgetting that he did not make it using his own money, he felt that all in his position had ow (a reward for success!), he did not deal with older 2 sons having girlfriends and the knowledge that they would go away to school (2 years ago)..and he did not like the idea that he was still having to pay for kids education (with my money) with no "reward". He had to "compete with their adolescent life"Basically a very juvenile and adolescent behaviour to all the above where he wanted to do what suited him and to heck with the rest.Of course he ALWAYS has a smile on his face...conflict avoider in terms of dealing with this mess he has created.Oh...I forgot he also has a G-d complex where he is right about EVERYTHING and all others or obviously wrong.Is he happy, I do not know if he will even admit to himself that he got what he wanted, but is this what he wanted? He will have to convince himself that this is so, because to admit he has made a mistake would devestate him. (He has never apologised in his life. He always has to be the "good guy and winner" and the facde of his persona displays this to the outside world.