Hmmmm, very interesting - opinions needed quickly

Marriage Builders

Ever since the divorce, my X has been asking to have the kids on my vacation week during the school year, i accomodated one afternoon the first year.

The second year i did not, and so now, i just got a phone call from a counselor's office with D in the office. D is asking me with a counselor if she can have sleep overs at her mom's house during my vacation week.

Now this is the only time she has supported sending the child to a counseling session. So now, i am getting put into a real bind here.

The counselor is supposed to call me tomorrow, the mom did not even tell me about the counseling sessons, of course.

Also, on X's weekends, the BF and his three girls all come over to X's house, So is the daughter really unable to ask me about sleeping overs with friends or unable to ask the mom about having her friends sleep over instead of mom's BF and kids?

interesting new tactic. . . .

wiftty

[ April 17, 2003, 03:50 PM: Message edited by: WhenIfindthetime ]

I must be missing something...

It's YOUR vacation week. This week has been planned and been YOURS for years now. Both your XW and D knew this week was to be WITH YOU.

I see no reason why you should even consider allowing your D to have a "friends' sleepover" at your XW's on your vacation week. None. If you are going somewhere with your kids during your vacation week, you will be out of town. If you are NOT going out of town, either your D has the "friends' sleepover" at your house that week -or- if she is adamant that it be at "mom's" house, then it is the week AFTER your week.

At this point, both your XW and D are manipulating you to the highest degree. I doubt if your D is doing it consciously, but she is following along with what your XW has demonstrated. So when you talk to the counselor, I suggest you just be factual. Don't get into your XW's numerous problems, just say that this week is yours, it has been yours for years, they KNEW it was coming, she is welcome to have the sleepover at your house, you are not keeping her from either her friends or her other parent, and that in your opinion this behavior is, succinctly, parental alienation.

Wiffty, you are a calm, mature, reasonable, healthy individual. Just BE that way with the counselor. There's no reason to pressure you into less time with your child...PERIOD.

CJ

Wift,

Sounds like munipulation could be involved, however, I'd wait to see what the counselor says.

Also, have you expressed to your daughter that you have no problems with sleep overs if you are in town, and to tell her that this is part of watching her grow up, spreading her wings and you want to share in this part as well...

ANNA

Sooooo What happened? Yea, yea, post...then just leave us in suspense. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

ANNA

Spoke with the counselor myself. He only has heard one side of the story, i told him the pattern of her actions. Of course, he did not know all that.

He did say that daughter said that we have a good time at my house, and she is afraid to ask me because because i might get hurt or angry. Well i always get angry when people are disrespectful of agreements, and not cooperate with our personal agreements. The only point the counselor made was the asked me to be flexible. I did not ask him his definition of flexible. Nor did anyone offer to me to make a change.

So i emailed X at 11:47 AM with what i proposed, and of course, just happened to be a school surprise holiday, and so at 8:30 PM i talk with her, and she said that she came back from email and did not receive any from me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

So i read the email over the phone, and then when i said that i propose to pick her up at 8:30 on Sunday, she went silent, and then asked how did the conversation with D go? and i said that I understood D's position, and counselor understood my position. And she then said that she has made plans with daughter, ( assuming that because it was said in front of a counselor, that everything was OK.) i accept that my mistake for being obsessed with a job hunt i did not make arrangements earlier. I have to beg to my parents to let me live with them until i can get a job at the level that the courts deem my background and education expect. unemployed for over a year with occassional part time jobs that don't make enough(and right now, i am getting rejected for $30/hour temp jobs as overqualified.) $12/hour constant work is child support requirement, rent is $9/hour, car is $2/hour for maintenance and insurance and gas to get to work.

Then she said, the agreement says that the vacation is a week, and asked if i was planning on bringing her back at the regular time as next weekend is my regular weekend, and i said yes. And she replied with "That is more than 24x7 hours for a week." I told her fine, Monday morning at 8:30 and she still went off the deep end, she was yelling on the phone, and i forgot to click it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

so i have yet to talk with daughter myself, however, since she is in an established pattern of alienation, i am probably going to go with the ruthless lawyer instead of the pansy lawyer, and file contempt charges, and then have to rewrite the agreement for specific dates, and ask the court to order a family psych evaluation.

Of course, the reason for all this is that d and i have some minor disagreements, X said that i returned d crying (and that never happened) x tells her to avoid me (no conflict resolution was ever done in our marriage unless she won), daughter comes back and we work it out. and then we have some fun together again.

daughter learned to IM me and talk with me over the computer, then X said can't IM anymore, ties up the phone. She was using OM's family account as guest, and so i got her her own name with no cost, independent of OM, and her own email here.

Also, X is coach of soccer team, does not go to clinics to learn to coach, and coaches from very old material, like 20 year old material. D went from being on winning higher level travel team a year ago with good coaches to an all losing lower level team with X as coach. Daughter is starting to lose interest in soccer. X mentioned to me that she wants to talk to me about d with soccer, and i agreed, but X has never brought it up again.
I can tell that D is losing interest, but will also never be a quality player anyway, so i am not pushing it.

D got lots of support from me for flute, and was very good at it, but got discouraged when friends quit, and of course, X would not tell me, and had to drag it out of d.

2 years ago, daughter asked for horse backriding lessons, d said that X would find them for her, after one year, X did nothing, d and I went horseback riding last summer, d loved it, i waited for an appropriate time, which was after flute quit, and daughter loves it, and i take her, and i just watch, but again, who knows how long it will last. So X did not support the HB riding lessons, but relented. now d again loves to do stuff with dad, and X is getting frustrated again.

its all about competition for the child, and wanting to be the sole "BEST" parent, IMO.

so i have yet to talk with daughter, but consulted with GSN for several hours last night. Do not know the answer, but know that Xis doing the alienation game for sure, and knows that i am in a difficult spot financially, which is always when she tries to make power plays. always has.

yeah, i am very upset, mostly because i can't provide for my kids in the way i had been, and was told the reason why X wanted a divorce was that i was too rich and independent. So i get hammered by her which ever way she can use, doesn't matter that the current reason contradicts the past reasons. . . ..

wiftty

Hey Wifty,

All about control and parental alienation.....good friend/parent, bad parent/enemy.

Counsellor said be flexible, not possible in terms of changing visitation, but you can work out any arrangement with your d when she is with you to have sleep overs etc...., sorry. This situation is not good for d, not good for you, but is good for X as it keeps you in conflict/emeshed with her and this is what she is all about (I think....)

X will push your buttons and try constantly to make you out to be the bad guy in this sorry mess. I admire your struggle to remain involved in your children's lives even though X is trying her very best to destroy your relationship with the kids by making it impossible. Many non-custodial parents would have walked long ago justifying that "it is better for the kids with no conflict" Dang, it would have been easier for me to walk out of my kids lives and leave them to their father and OW (now fiancee and soon to be wife...!!!) but that I could not do as father a very toxic parent and OW even worse....simply made it impossible for me to parent, and my kids lost out big time, but I did what I could and can and it has not been easy, but only 1 at home and she is doing very well...after struggling for 3 and a half years emulating father's behaviour and now not!

Kids will either get it or they will not, but you will know for you, that you stayed and did your best.

I think that an e-mail to X reminding her that all written agreements re visitation are not flexible and remain in effect. Not negatiable PERIOD. Do not explain, do not justify, simple facts.

Tell your kids this as well. Put the year's calendar in writing. ...times of pick up, times and dates of drop off, things you must be notified about. The children are old enough to know when they will be with you. You then take the control away from X and give it to the kids. So if they are not able to be where they are supposed to, or do not want to, then they take ownership and have to negotiate this with you, not X and her allies...

Good luck
I hope I read this all correctly.

thanks willbok,

our agreement was written as "vacations by agreement" because I was being cooperative with her at the time, and so was she. Now i am having difficulty finding a new job, and asking for temporary relief, and she is getting pissed. like i made too much money first, and now not enough money, and I am getting rejected as overqualified, and i could anticipate that 2 years ago??

I went to pick up daughter earlier in week, and they could not find the specific clothes, so X comes out and asks me since she can't find the clothes, so i have any other suggestions? i shake my head no, and she got pissed. I really don't. . .

Something is going on , and I don't know what it is, but its something big. because the only time X goes to counselors is to get backup for her own way.

I just can't believe my life is taking this turn now, its like a bad cartoon, on infinite looping.

As far as son, he and i get along pretty well, as best i can tell. We have some great conversations when he does talk to me. I still go to all of his games, and he gets hammered for not cooperating, but at 14 at a boarding school, he is learning fast, and well. He is doing better than expected academically for him, although we have identified his weaknesses and he is working on them, which is good.

wiftty

Its something about either X's boyfriend or parents in the vicinity that cause her to get very uncooperative, very disrespectful and manipulative.

Other times, when she is alone, is very sweet and charming. . . its just when those others that she has to impress as tough, she uses me.

the other night, i email her and she called back and was all sweet, helpful, charming, etc. because she felt she was needed or wanted. . .

if she doesn't feel needed, she doesn't feel loved. kinda weird.

X refuses to discuss schedules with me,

has daughter do all the talking. . .

I can't decide how to handle this,

i suspect that the best way is to get a legal order for entire family counseling.

wiftty

Wifty......You are talking about parenting time...right?
This can be mediated....and a written agreement in place with no flexibility.

Have your parent time and schedule worked out, your X should do the same and then see where the commonalities are etc and work through this.

You might find this a cathartic experience in letting your frustrations and feelings out re this mess with kids visitation and also hear X's issues.

As the children get older they will decide what is good for them somewhat....but your X will continue to pull them in...after all it is all about her, not about the kids needs and especially not about your role as the father of your children......and this is not good for the children.

I am sorry that you are not able to find steady work and support your family as you would like to, but this should never ever be used against you in terms of visitation....apples and oranges, but your X will try to muddy the waters with this as well.

Good luck and let me know.....unless you do things differently, you will always dance to her tune.

Wifty,

You said,
<blockquote>quote:<hr />$12/hour constant work is child support requirement<hr /></blockquote>Could you explain what that means? We live in the same state. My H was unemployed for two years, and preferred to not work rather than take just any job. He finally accepted a job paying about a third of what he used to earn, and he only has to work about 2/3 of full-time, and that is fine with the judge. The court refused to make him look for additional hours or to continue to look for a better-paying job.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />our agreement was written as "vacations by agreement" because I was being cooperative with her at the time, and so was she. Now i am having difficulty finding a new job, and asking for temporary relief, and she is getting pissed.<hr /></blockquote>Am I missing something? Do these two sentences have something to do with each other?

I don't understand about the sleepovers. Is you daughter asking to have sleepovers with her friends at her mother's house rather than yours? As a mother of daughters, I don't think I would allow my kids to spend the night with their friends when the only adult present was male - it is just too risky. I can understand why she would want to have the sleepover at her mother's house, and between soccer and softball and all the other things kids are signed up for, it is difficult to find time for a sleepover except during vacation.

Here's the problem, in a nutshell:

the lessons being taught and learned at X's house are:

1) Agreements are meaningless because we can disregard them whenever we want, because if WE can plan something better, or think up an excuse, then we can just change the agreement.

But only change the agreement if it suits us, not the other way around.

Basically, my X planned some activities for d, which she knew she couldn't because it was my week, and she couldn't do it on her weekend with the BF, and used the counselors to validate the reason and to put pressure on me.

Her family has been making up excuses to do whatever they want forever, and we used to laugh at her dad for buying a new car because he had a flat.

Well crap on me for not seeing it as a red flag that she would fall back into when needed.

wiftty

[ April 20, 2003, 06:18 PM: Message edited by: WhenIfindthetime ]

Wifty,
Truly I not only understand what you are talking about, I have walked in your shoes and still do a little bit.
That is why I believe a mediated agreement, with a provision for penalties (can be extra time etc...first choice re a holiday time or something creative...NOT monetary) if agreement broken. You have nothing to lose by trying this route...unless you want to be on the same roller coaster for many more years. X will not change, so it is all up to you......you can either retain the status quo, walk away from kids or try to make it work for kids and you ...and X as well.

The difference is (for the most part) I HAVE taught my children that there is respect for people and there is disrespect....changing agreed plans if a better one comes along is disrespectful.

What I did was tough love with my young adults sons ...they changed agreed plans on me (e.g. X insisted that they have dinner with him only when they had existing plans with me) and I then would not change my existing plans for another time to accomodate them....my sons finally are "getting it."... but your children are too young (as is my daughter) and would see this as abandonment, that is why I suggest mediation for you.
You have nothing to lose.
You might also want to ask the mediator to talk to the children to see what they want.

Wiffty,

I am heading for bed, but since you posted on what is going on after I asked, I thought I'd better post...

I'm exhausted though because I've been at the beach for the last two days...

Anyway...

You are so smart, I have been on here long enough to know that. Therefore, you will find a job, so don't give up on that.

Your ex pushes your buttons more than anyone in your life. I think she must of hurt you pretty badly. I know you are over her, but you still seem to hold a lot of resentments.

You had mentioned she agreed to co-parent, and now doesn't seem to do that. My ex and I co-parent, however, we often don't have the same values or beliefs and he does his thing and I have to do mine. For instance, I don't agree to listening to music with really bad words in it, ex however, lets my son listen as long as the lyrics are fine with him, regardless of the words. So, Who wins? Neither of us, I just instill in him what I think is right and when ex with him he has his own rules on this...

Same with your ex, perhaps on somethings it's a matter of neither one of you will ever agree...Like the birthday thing. Maybe your ex thinks it's the children's responsibility to get presents, whereas you think it's the parents responsibility to make sure the children get them for the parents. Both of you just think different.

Don't get me wrong in thinkin' I am siding with her on this...By no means am I siding with her on it. I think you are right, your daughter needs to be with you on the days you have her and if she wants sleep overs she needs to do these at your house as well.

Regarding the counselor, perhaps the counselor was saying "be flexible" to come up with a compromise, like if your ex gets more time during your week, you agree she comes up with more time to give you the next few weeks.

What the counselor doesn't realize is your ex breaks these agreements. So therefore, you no longer feel safe to make them anymore.

If I were you, I would keep my conversations short with your ex. You can not convince her of anything. Just tell her your time with your daughter is your time and although you understand she loves being with the children, you do too and you need your time. Then let it go with that....

If she gets mad, let her get mad, but set your boundaries.

Perhaps try this as well. Tell her you lost faith in her being flexible with you and tell her when she can start being more flexible with you and allowing you to see the children on your off days, you will start doing the same.

Regarding your daugher. You told the counselor you get angry when someone disrespects agreement or not cooperate with other agreements...your daughter needs to feel safe talking to you about anything. I think you need to reconsider your actions towards her and this is where I would also think the counselor is trying to say...be more flexible, especially with your daughter. Sometimes agreements can be compromised and amended, your daughter knowing your flexible and "spontaneous" hehe...like me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> is important. (had to throw that one in!)

C'ya,

ANNA

<blockquote>quote:<hr />X refuses to discuss schedules with me,

has daughter do all the talking. . .

I can't decide how to handle this,

i suspect that the best way is to get a legal order for entire family counseling. <hr /></blockquote>You need to talk to Counselor or your new counselor if you were able to find one... This is blatant abuse of the child by putting them in the middle!!! They are not her Gopher...... and if she is not woman enough to handle her own issues and ability to discuss parenting issues... then she needs to take a PARENTING CLASS to find out what a parent should do!!!!!

Mary played this game also for a long time.... I could see the affects on the kids and I decided I would not play the game nor allow the kids to be put in the middle......

You need to start playing hardball!!!!

I know. . . i am waiting for a call back from a lawyer friend who knows the name of a killer lawyer, but he is away for the weekend, and my lawyer is thinking about it <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> Its the only state in the union where today is a holiday.

and d just missed her horseback riding lesson test. i had a choice, going to see son play in a lacrosse game, which there will be another one on wednesday, or go to d's test to move up.

Well, X forgot about the test, or has some other excuse, etc. i haven't cried for awhile, but this time, this really sucks. When they ask where she is, i just say that her mom went crazy, and i have no idea, which is just about the truth.

wiftty

i just say that her mom went crazy, and i have no idea, which is just about the truth.

Oops..... dont play her games.... no names.... you will hang yourself.....

I would inform the counselor of two things.
Your time with your D is your time. Unless she is scheduled for lessons, school, etc. you will talk to her yourself about what she wants to do with you on your time. Your X cannot dictate to you what D does on your time.
Secondly, schedule a session or two with this counselor so you and your D can make some rules for communication. This will show the counselor you are more than willing to be a great daddy.
Your D will learn consistancy by having rules.
She will be able to rely on these rules and rely on you no matter what her mother tells her.
Put them in writing and laminate them. Put them on your wall. She will know you mean what you say.
One more thing. Plan B the X.
God bless you.

Aly

Wiffty,

When it's your time with your daughter, call her in advance and make plans with her--get her a calender to write down her activities on..

that way she knows, this week I am with Dad, so don't make plans w/ mom..or with friends until after I've first discussed it with dad to see if it's okay with him..

My niece called once and asked if my daughter could stay the night with her, it was a weekend she was supposed to be w/ her dad, I told my daughter..I'm sorry but, I can't give permission to do that, as that was her weekend w/ her dad,
but she could call her dad and ask HIM if it was okay..knowing it would cause him to lose spending that time w/ her..

So now, when they are making plans to do things
they find out when dad is going to be in town and make plans around that..mostly for weekends he isn't here..and if something is going on they want to do and it's his weekend w/ them, they call and discuss it with him BEFORE they make the plans..

If they want someone to spend the night and it's his weekend, they call him and ask if they can stay the night at his house w/ them..

This forces them to build their relationship w/ their dad..and takes me out of their relationship

talk to your daughter, and let her know, that if she knows it's your week or weekend to be with her that she can call you and discuss any plans before hand..and if she'd like to have someone stay the night, to call you and discuss it with you..because it concerns your relationship w/ her
not her relationship w/ her mom..

And if X gets mad because she's not in the loop
to darn bad...it doesn't concern her..as she is no longer your wife...

Well,

i had a long discussion with ms teacher and ms people person that tells me to listen, but is stone deaf, to the daughter.

She wants to stay at mom's house because she can't have sleep overs at her mom's house on mom's weekend, with the BF and his kids there. Typical blended family stuff, and then trying to manipulate me, and blame me

After talking to the daughter, I called back to the X, told her to listen and i just told her my story, and told her what i heard, and told her how i handled the same incident i had last summer, with my GF and her family, We solved our problem by agreeing to split up to get family time together, and so both families spent the day apart, and this did wonders for all involved.

The X is now starting to hear how forcing blended families together is not so easy, and causes alot of internal problems. Lets hope she can learn from it, and not blame others, or not try to manipulate everyone some more.

I haven't forced myself, and am working this slowly, probably too slowly, but am not giving up.

wiftty

than you for the good suggestions, but just remember, dealing with a parent that does not parenting, and wants the kids to sooth her, and sees the kids as something to spoil to be in competition with me.

never could she admit or believe that she, the all knowing, can be manipulated by daughter.

Have you asked your ex if your schedules can be altered where you can the same amount of days per year but some are better for your daughter where she can have sleepovers?

I know you say she's unreasonable, but if she would, then there'd be your compromise.

If ex won't, I would just tell daughter ex won't compromise on the days, don't make yourself out to be the bad guy. Tell her the truth.

ANNA

This is how conversations go.

4:30 PM Dad: “When can I have A for my weekend?”
X: “I am unsure”
Dad:”What does that mean?”
X: ”I am unsure”

no progress there, i talk with daughter, A:

Dad: “Have I ever said that you can’t have sleep overs at my house?”
A: “No.”
Dad: “Have you ever asked me if you can have sleep overs?”
A: “No, but Dad, I can’t have sleep overs at my house here where I live most of the time, except on your weekends or in the summer.”
Dad:” A, that’s between you and your Mom”
A: silence.
Dad:” A, that’s between you and your Mom”
I let her have some silence, and time and then said good bye, but would call back.

5:30 PM I called X, and asked her to listen to how I handled a blended family type problem over the summer where in my case A&A were not getting enough attention because of the other family’s behavior. We split up and had family time activities of our own, separate, and A&A were much better. X says she is talking with A about it right now.

6:45 PM I called again, asking “When can I have A?”
X:”I am working on it! I will call you back later.”
Dad: “Okay, that’s fine.”
X:” Do you have soccer on Friday night because if you do I can take A because she does not want to go.”
Dad:” Would you let A talk to me about this?”
X:”I suppose I am wrong again. But why does everything have to go through you, the Grand PooPah?”
Dad:” It doesn’t, but people have to talk to me directly, not through other people. A needs to talk to me about this”
X: “Why does everyone get in trouble when I tell A to tell you where to take her?”
Dad: “Because you need to talk to me as a parent.”

End of example

X does not like this, never has, always avoids it like the plague. Talking directly to me means she doesn't get her way just because she opens her mouth.

My first issue of poor communication:
No one over there talks directly, everyone uses everyone else, and I get irritated when people talk for other people. I want the person with the concern talk to me, directly so that I can discuss the situation with them directly, and find out what bothers them directly. Only that person can have an intelligent discussion.

Example, X for A: X will talk for A about schedules at my house, not allowing A and I to talk it out and work through the problem. The issue being discussed is how my time and A's time is spent at my house, and that is between A and me, X speaking for A is not allowing A and I to solve our problem.

Example. A for X: X tells A to tell me, in my presence, what to do with A. Parents make the schedules and the arrangements, and talk as the responsible parties, not the kids. If there is a change, the parent making the change needs to talk to the other parent, not put the kids in the middle.
The result is everyone learns conflict avoidance, and does not learn how to speak for themselves, or solve problems themselves.

My Second issue X does not need to put me down when A can hear on the phone, that is very disrespectful of the other parent. Making fun of me wanting respect in communications only serves to undermine me when I am trying to get people to communicate directly.

Some people just don't get it, no matter what. You still explain it to them, time after time, doesn't matter.

Plan B? i love it. I wish i had never met that person ever in my life.

She loves to hear one sided stories, and only believe her kids. Complains that i am difficult to talk to. I agree, because i want the respect of not having snide comments and remarks made to me because C isn't getting what she wants. I am difficult because i don't just give her whatever she wants, and can defend my point of view, and can neutralize hers. mostly MB stuff anyway, nothing deep.

i just wish i could collect on some life insurance . . . . . any accident will do. .. .

wiftty

[ April 24, 2003, 10:23 PM: Message edited by: WhenIfindthetime ]

Wiffty,

Since my question wasn't really answered and you didn't address your last post to anyone, I am not sure if that was in answer to my post or someone else's...

I wouldn't say, "When am I getting A?" I would say "I will get A such and such date unless today you come up with a better date, if you don't, I will be at your door steps at this date." AND then I would do just that.

When they want to change schedules, I would say, "I will change this night with you, if you agree to let me have them on this date. Be specific. Add if I end up not getting daughter on the replaced date, don't ask for changes again.

Your ex is wrong to make fun of you, but are you listening to what she is saying by making fun of how you talk to her. You may not be able to change this by just saying, "Don't do this." but you can ask... Why is she making fun of you? There could possibly be changes your could make in your approach that would minimize her making fun.

My ex use to say in highschool, kids made fun of him and he had to learn to talk on an average level. He used words and terms that people just didn't use and to stop the teasing, he had to stop.

I see him reverting back to his highschool years and using those terms again and it is annoying, although I don't make fun of him, I just ignore it and stick with the issues.

I don't know if you are doing this or something else that is getting under her skin, but it is worth investigating...Change you...

Perhaps appealing to your daughters logical side is a good approach to use with your daughter, my sons respond better when I use logic...for instance say, "Mom gets you 70% (add in correct %) of the time, I get to see you 30% of the time. The percentage is so low on my side, I hate giving up my time with you by giving up days...

About your last comment of collecting life insurance and any accident will do...IMHO That's just not funny wiffty.

Take care,

ANNA

Anna

doesn't matter what approach i use, if its direct with her, She will revert to what A wants. I tried that, and she responded with "You can't just tell me when you will get A." "I tried using the agreement, and she says, "I have to go check with my L or with A."

I have to treat her as a child who has learned to get her way and attention by just sitting down and doing nothing until she gets it. And one who never has to take responsibility for herself, but will love to take responsibility for others.

Unless I can get the contempt of court on her, so that she learns to respect the agreement. She was very agreeable in the beginning, our agreement is "by agreement"

X says right out, "I will support the kids in whatever they want" even if it is bad behavior, breaking the rules, etc. I have seen this behavior, time and time again. She will only believe what she wants to, by concocting reasons that really don't have any logic, but to her they serve her purpose.

Would you like to read about her behavior to an almost absolute per fect descripton?

http://www.halcyon.com/jmashmun/npd/traits.html

the only one that doesn't fit is "lack of sense of humor." she has a good one as long as it is putting someone down.

File the contempt.
Make sure your visitation is iron clad.
I'm finding your input to be very insitful to my situation. I thank you for this.
I don't want to behave this way. I can see how my children are trying to manipulate the visitation and am being direct with them about their honesty to me and their father.
I know they want to please both of us and don't have the ability to understand this because of their ages.
I delt with this just yesterday. I made my child come clean with me and do the right thing by her father.
The hard part is knowing when they are being honest. My H has been very manipulative and abusive to all of us.
I'm finding that I can effectivly stand up for myself with him without overeacting. Petty fights are avoided by Plan B and only speaking to him about the children through email. This way I don't fall into trap of manipulation. It just doesn't work. Also, this shows the court that I am having contact with him. The dates and times are on the email. I even know if he's opened it.
It's too easy for them to get under our skin and react. Defence mode, then we get upset, blah, blah, blah.
Try what I do. Send her and email. Keep it direct and factual. No emotion unless it is light and funny. If she's gonna blow,she's gonna blow. Save it all. If she doesn't all the better. She will learn to communicate with you by your example.
God Bless.

Aly

Aly,

My parenting time is not iron clad,
that is what has to change, its just that at the same time, i am about to move where i won't be able to fulfill the current visitation schedule without a job, either.

My X is very needy, and manipulative. She will say anything to get what she wants, logic is not part of her thinking. Her need to feel wanted or important far outweighs any other EN on the list. She will take any opportunity to save someone from the punishment of self responsibility, including some of her students.

I would like to file a contempt charge, and have asked my attorney to figure out how, but since i am not paying his bills either, unless i get a job, which i have for about 2-3 weeks at the moment, just came in. . . .

will only get me caught up on his bill. I asked for a CS reduction because i was running into a problem in September, filed in October, now, i am getting heard. . . doesn't help when you are paying out at a rate equal to the rent, and i live in one of the most expensive regions of the country. . . and i haven't worked more than 5 weeks in the last year, and unemployment has run out.

so put no job stresses with a child that does n't want to see me because of her mother, and its a tad bit stressful.

wiftty

Wiffty,

Why not try this..let ex talk for A when A is at her home, when you pick up A, ask her if there is something else she would like to do...and talk directly to her..

Just let her know when she is with you..her opinion counts..and what she wants matters to you..

Is what I mean is...go ahead and say Okay we can do that..and then when you get A, ask her if that is REALLY what she wants to do...if not..make other plans based on what the two of you want to do..and later if her mom asks her how whatever went she can say, "oh we changed our minds and decided to XYZ instead"

And take the time to talk to A, and let her know that your relationship with her is between the two of you..and she can tell her mother that..she can say something like..

"Mom, I love you, but my relationship with dad is just that, MY RELATIONSHIP with dad, the only time you have anything to say about what dad and I do with "our" time together, is when it concerns you directly like when he's picking me up, or bringing me home"

And also let A know that when her mom starts bad mouthing you in front of her, she can ask her mom to stop--say something like

"He is MY dad, and I don't have to listen to you bad mouth him, let me make up my own decision about dad based on MY relationship with him--

TR,

good suggestions. . .

thanks

Thornrose,
I like your suggestions. They are great. I think the problem is, this woman is so unreasonable. It's always about her. Her dramma.
It's hard to believe that someone could be this way but believe you me I know this behavior first hand. The more you try, the more you add to the dramma.
The other thing is, you never want to put children up to anything. They need to stay out of as much as possible. This is the job of the counselor to intervien. She should be going at least once every two weeks. The counselor works for the court. It's the counselors job to advise her on what she can do and to teach her how to deal with the problems. The counselor will also inform the court of any problems if he/she needs to. This is the best protection for the child, for now and in the future.
Dude,
You know this. You've got to get a job. Do you think you are in need of meds? This doesn't sound like who you really are. You sound like you are well educated and have been well employed in the past. What's going on with you? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />
Are you all right? I know I'm setting myself up for a vent, that's O.K. have at it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Aly

Wifft,

I hope you take her back to court soon and I hope you get this all straightened out. I don't know what it would feel like to have someone have that much power over me regarding my children. I wish the one who gets the majority of custody would put themselves in the other persons shoes. It's just wrong!

ANNA

Not a quick opinion, and really an opinion from the other other side. I'm thinking back to when my parents split. I was lucky enough (?) to be old enough to arrange my own schedule.

Your daughter isn't. So, let's think about long-term goals here. 1) You don't give a bleep what your X thinks of you. And from what you say, her bad opinion is a compliment. 2) You do want to come out of the next 5 years with a strong relationship with your daughter. 3) You want to raise a healthy, well balanced young woman. I'm making a lot of assumptions here, but I think I'm on safe ground.

So, I remember being horribly afraid of hurting my father adn being put on guilt trip. If I didn't see him enough, if I didn't return his calls quickly enough. Now, from other posts, you know his behavior was out of line. But, I think your A. needs to know that even though she disappoints you in wanting to spend time with friends, etc, you understand.

I think too being confident in your children's love for you actually stregnthens the bond.

(Oh, dear. I find myself always wondering if I'm being rough around the edges, or not communicating well.)

Anyway, get a court order. Be flexible with A., but a ridgid rock with your x. So, basically if A askes X days in advance, maybe you could consider trading days.

I hear an underlying concern that your X will be such a bad influence on A that A will be ruined. Don't put any money on that one. You set the example you know you can, and she'll follow. Kids have a super-sensitive BS detector. X is unable to escape it.

One other note: I know you hate people being disrespectful. But you got a 10 year old girl with hormones jsut starting to get out of wack, and a 13 year old boy. You want respect, you've got to earn it every step of the way. And you've got to give it. I believe from about 12-17 disrespect is the default mode.

And keep your sense of humor. If your wife is nasty to you in your daughter's hearing, guess who goes down in D's estimation? She does.

All this is from the point of view of someone who's been close to your daughter's position. And naturally, I could be way off base.

thanks

I just picked up my son, and i have been very hard on him, not taking any DJ, BS, and he has made a huge turn around after getting into one of the top schools in the country. He is much calmer after working very hard, and being well respected.

He is doing exceedingly well, beyond my wildest dreams, and he is using the learning techniques that i showed him very successfully. . .

In other words, if he didn't follow the communication agreements we made, he lost his saturday night sleep over privileges. I told him about how i had the same problem, its just a learning experience. Although he screws up every once in a while, now its mostly a matter of last minute unavoidable changes, mostly beyond his control. I understand on that issue.

He has become more responsible and we have great conversations. i just give him attitude adjustment talks every once in awhile to help him keep perspective, and he is great.

The problem is that my X is a gender warrior, so the daughter is her prize. I told X the other day about my values being posted, expectations etc, and she groaned with frustration, because she thinks i am being controlling and rigid. they are mostly MB values, so i laugh, and the counselor agrees with them so far.

But GG, thank you for that insight. D came home and said that at school they had the talk about becoming a woman. So i asked her what she learned, and she was shy. so i kept gently asking, and she finally got a slightly bit embarrassed, so i said, "You learned about nipples, boobs, and your crotch!" she laughed, and i told her that its OK to talk that way in the family, just not in public. I also showed her the pads i have had for a year, waiting for the moment and any accidents. that was helpful for her, i don't think she expected any of that, especially the pads already.

yes, i must remember about the hormones. Although i don't always think i do very well against the X. i think she is a very disgusting coach when she plays huggy kissy face with daughter during soccer games, like while coaching. I have yet to see one other coach like that.

Daughter is here and i have not talked with her, although she gets emails from me regularly, and we will go back to IM ing after i explain to her how upset and hurt i was. Remember, she gets everything she wants at her mom's house, and not as much here. . . so i am not sure how well i get heard. . . because X is very seductive and manipulative, and comes from a long line of competitive spouses and manipulators, we will see.

yes, i get frustrated with her, she drives me bat sschit crazy, and truthfully, she doesn't get it, really honestly, has no clue.

wiftty

Aly,

Actually, those suggestions came from MY childrens counselor, and mine..it's to help the kids learn how to speak up for themselves..and help the kids learn how to set boundaries..within their seperate families..yet still be respectful
to the other parent..

it helps you learn to step out of the other parents relationship with the child--and let them learn how to build their own relationship..one that works best for them--

And as the parent..this is something HE can and should help his children learn to do..as it will also help them later in life..in other relationships--

It will help them learn that others can't choose their friends for them, and that it's okay to like someone even if others don't..(including your parents)

it will also help them learn to be confident in their own decisions--

Wiffty,

That is great that you talked to your daughter about those things and let her know that you have
personal items for her at your home as well..

Something I would suggest though..is for you to learn how to talk about those personal issues less crudely..use proper terms..like breasts--
teach her that these are private areas of her body and that men should talk to her respectfully

Girls her age..look to how their fathers talk about such things..more so than how their mothers talk about such things..because their fathers are the MALE figure in their life..in whom all other Men they meet and date are judged..

So something to ask yourself..is how do "I" as her father want the men my daughter dates and the man, she one day marries to talk to and treat her??

Do I want her to accept men talking crudely and abusively to her? or do I want her to "EXPECT" them to treat her with honor and respect?

And yes, it's something she should "expect" because if she doesn't 'expect' to be treated w/
honor and respect, she will accept any type of treatment from a man..even abuse..

good point. . . .

thanks

Wifty,

Your welcome <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

--- i think she is a very disgusting coach when she plays huggy kissy face with daughter during soccer games, like while coaching. I have yet to see one other coach like that.

TR- Okay, now, Your ex-wife isn't other coaches, she's her--and she's also NOT YOU!! If she want's to play kissy face w/ daughter at the games then that's just her..just let your daughter know that if 'SHE' IS uncomfortable with it..then she can ask her mom not to do that at the games..

Just because it's disgusting to you..and you feel it's not appropraite..doesn't mean your daughter minds her mom showing her affection like that..again that's one of those relationship things--her relationship is different than your relationship w/ your daughter..just learn to accept it, and maybe even learn to look at it differently...like maybe mom wants A to know that even if she isn't playing the best she can, she's out still out their giving it a shot and having fun..

--Remember, she gets everything she wants at her mom's house, and not as much here. . . so i am not sure how well i get heard. . . because X is very seductive and manipulative, and comes from a long line of competitive spouses and manipulators, we will see.

TR- Don't worry about the 'things' she gets at her mom's..only concern yourself with what you can provide her..like your time..

things are fleeting and can be lost in an instant..but the memories built through giving your time..last forever..

My ex buy's our kids all sorts of 'things' when they are with him..but he doesn't spend 'time' with them..like for instance he'll take them to the bowling alley to bowl, and he sits in the bar and drinks with his brother..while the kids bowl..
then they come home and complain that he didn't spend any time with them..I say, yeah, but he took you to do this or that..and they just say yeah..but he wasn't there..he was off doing his own thing..and we didn't spend any "time" with him..he was always off with his brother..

So try not to look at all the 'things' she gives them...it's the 'time' and 'attention' they really like..

--yes, i get frustrated with her, she drives me bat sschit crazy, and truthfully, she doesn't get it, really honestly, has no clue.--

TR- And you know what, it's not your place to teach her that..she'll have to learn that on her own..and yes, one day she will--and you will one day be able to look back and see how many memories you and your kids have spending time together..playing games, listening to music, watching movies, and just talking and sharing in each others lives..

have you ever put on some music and danced around the living room w/ your kids? teaching your daughter how to slow dance? or watching them dance with each other?

have you ever sat down and built a card house together? that is funny..but it can be used to teach how relationships work --

Let them build one alone..and see how high they can build it..and then work together on one and see how high it can get..see which one is better..

Play a game of war, or spades, play board games together..and build those memories..those are the things that are priceless..

Set up a game night when you have the kids, or make a date night..rent a movie and pop popcorn
and sit down together many times on the floor, we get some blankets and pillows and just enjoy laughing and or crying together about the movie..

Something else I do, is sit down and watch tv with my kids, and ask them questions about the shows they enjoy..my daughters love The Gilmore Girls, my son likes cartoons, so I curl up on the couch next to them and we watch it together..

I realize you don't pray and believe in God, but something else we do, is at dinner, we hold hands and pray together..it's not something we have always done, but it's something we've started..
and they make sure to say something if someone starts to eat before we've prayed..and the person who took the first bite..is the one who prays that night..

but it's those little things like that..that create the memories which last a life time..

TR -

She might drive me crazy, but i don't say anything to her or criticize her to my daughter. . . but i do say, these are the rules in my house. . . and i have them listed out. . .

But here is an example of how she won't take a leadership role over children. She is an EMT, they are big into safety. At today's soccer game, she is the coach, U12 girls, and I am a long time referee but not the game referee. She asks me my opinion if a kid can play with hair beads. I say no, and explain that if the bead whips around, it can hit someone else in the eye, so absolutely not. I use my authoritative referee tone which tells coaches that its not their decision by law, and i don't bend on player safety. She gets pissy at me, and then asks the referee of the game. The 11 yo player would not put the hair beads into a ponytail to at least keep the beads from whipping around, because it would wreck the braids.

So what do you think she does? nothing, ignores safety advice, and just does whatever the child wants, which, in my opinion, even puts the eyes of our own child at risk. But i do not say anything. AFterwards, i told her why i use my authoritative voice, to keep uncooperative coaches from trying to negotiate special exemptions under the rules, basically, coaches that dont' want to accept the rules, but want to play by their rules. .. see what i mean. . .

yes, i do at least 50% of your suggestions anyway. . . I just have more structure and required manners and discipline here, that the kids don't like as well, and they will not grow up to be selfish people, like my X. remember, my X eats with her hands half the time, serves meat with her hands, etc. . . and scoffs at me for wanting manners. . . . she can do whatever she wants, but at minimum ACTIVELY support the agreement. . .

wiftty

Geez, this person that used to be my wife is just i don't know what. . .

I play Hi - Lo with my kids at dinner time, what was your High experience for the week and the lowest experience for the week. So the kids ask me, and i was honest, my low was i was waiting for my daughter to show up at riding lessons since she was at my X's house, X knows about the lessons, and all kinds of crap was screwed up. . .

so i drop her off this morning at X's house as usual, and i get a phone call from X. X said daughter said that my lowest low of my LIFE was that i was waiting for her to show up at lessons. X said that she finds that offensive. huh? X says that there was no plan. huh? did she call me? i told her i was waiting on advice from my lawyer on legal issue after what daughter told me. Which i am sure X suggested to daughter to say.

Supid me, i explained what we were doing, and then again, i told her that we need to be consistent and make agreements, stick to them, and follow the agreement. Then she had to go. . .

I am upset, my daughter is turning down a party that she clearly wanted to go to as of Thursday, and then decided she didn't want to go because she was afraid that i wouldn't return her to X's house because it was my week, and she didn't want to go. So then she doesn't show up to riding lessons, i am upset, and X finds that offensive??

WhoTF does she think she is to tell me what she finds offensive in my conversations with my daughter???

i don't even recognize this person anymore.. . .

wiftty

TR,
I just caught up. I totally agree with the concept of what you are saying. The child needs to learn to understand what she wants and learn how to set her boundries.
My only concern is if the mother hears these words coming from her child she will know the father told her to, or how to, say this. This will just add to the drama for the mother.
I would suggest he take her to the counselor and speak to the counselor about this problem. Take the opportunity to say these kinds of things in front of the counselor so he has a wittness. This way if the mother asks why she is telling her this and where she heard this from, she can say her father told her when they were at the counselor's office. She can also tell her the counselor's opinion on the matter. This will help her stand up to the mother more effectively.
If the mother has a problem she can take it up with the counselor and leave dad out.
Does that make sense?
This will also show the counselor what kind of father he is. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Aly