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If it's okay to "date" while married because your spouse left and there is nothing left of the marriage except the paper, then why get married at all?

My "argument" is that until a divorce is final, then don't date.

If a spouse feels a marriage is over and goes out and "dates", why is it wrong?
If the bs then goes out and dates, it's okay?

If you want to date, then get a divorce.

What's wrong with doing this?

If the paper of marriage is the only thing holding the marriage together, then why get married? You answered your own question silly.

(tongue in cheek) Everyone is going to see marriage differently Chris. You know this and I know you know this from your posts. The marriage contract is a piece of paper worth lots and lots in child support and alimony cases... but in a functioning marriage is an invisible thing utterly masked by love, respect, and commitment. When the love and commitment are gone and all hope of recapturing it has fled, the only thing that remains is this document that says, "You are married."

I looked at it and said, "I will not date, but I will try and make friends." That didn't stop me from having crushes and even romantic thoughts but I avoided (probably accidentally) romantic entanglements till the dv decree came through. Others will look at it through eyes of hurt, pain, anger, impatience, even unrequited love...

I do know that the time I was looking at that paper and respecting it, bought me valuable time to sort myself out. In hindsight, I could have used more of it. Wiser people say to wait. I am now one of those people who will say that, but it's very hard to argue marital contract, on either side, when apathetic noncompliance is being flaunted in one's face by the other. That flaunting is what pushes most of us out of Plan B into dv action! In the end, impatience to move on with life is, what I think, what drives most of on into our respective futures...

Chris I agree with what lyxa said......but would like to add this......

You waited on your EX for a good while correct?.........what if by chance, by waiting on her all that time, you missed the opportunity to meet someone perfect for you? In my case, I wasnt willing to risk losing a marvelous woman whom meets all of my needs for a piece of paper that wasnt worth the ink printed on it.........at that time when my EX gave completely up and no longer wanted me. Basically all she was WAITING on was for the divorce to be final. As I have said, when its over, its over.......and sometimes people have to face the facts.

One more thing Chris..........sometimes people make a mistake in getting married. Yes, god hates divorce and wants couples to stay married......but since we have our own free will, alot of time we make mistakes. I for one, made a mistake in marrying my EX........I grew to love her, but we had problems from the start. We argued on our wedding night. NOT a good sign.....with my current wife, I dont think we have argued but once in a whole years time.....and definately NOT since we have been married. Its like we are perfect for each other. If I would have past her up due to a few weeks of waiting for my papers to go through.....I WOULD BE KICKIN MYSELF TO THIS DAY. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Chris,

You look at a M differently than what some others may see it.

Many people see it as a piece of paper; a legal document that can be used manipulated and even disgarded if they "feel" like it.

It is entered into without much thought or consideration (their first mistake). Therefore, it can be tossed to the wayside (their second mistake).

You, on the other hand understand that it to be an unbreakable committment in front of God and the spouse, not to be entered into lightly.

With people coming from those two perspectives, no one will ever see eye to eye. And only God has the ability to give them the same understanding.

I understand your frustration with people not getting it. But don't stop. Obedience is what we are called for not results.

Bless you.

S&C

what if by chance, by waiting on her all that time, you missed the opportunity to meet someone perfect for you?
Then I didn’t lose anything, did I? If I were to “what if” everything, I’d go insane, as would most people.

In my case, I wasnt willing to risk losing a marvelous woman whom meets all of my needs for a piece of paper that wasnt worth the ink printed on it.........at that time when my EX gave completely up and no longer wanted me.
So she (new wife) was meeting all your needs and you knew she was perfect as soon as your (now ex) wife told you she no longer wanted you?

or

And you knew this immediately upon meeting her? After all, you were dating prior to your divorce which was only ~3 months from d-day to final decree, correct? So there wasn’t a whole lot of time to know she was “someone perfect“.

As I have said, when its over, its over.......and sometimes
I guess we differ on “when it’s over.”
So why did you get married again? Why only a piece of paper? Could have saved $20 (marriage license (expensive piece of paper)) plus wedding costs.

If I would have past her up due to a few weeks of waiting for my papers to go through.....I WOULD BE KICKIN MYSELF TO THIS DAY.
But you would NOT have known how great she is and you would not have been in love with her and you would not miss her.

So why don’t you kick yourself today because you didn’t win the lotto? You COULD have picked the right numbers.

Or what if you had waited 30 seconds longer before saying hello to your new wife. If you had waited, she would have found the winning lotto ticket on the ground and then met you. You could have had both..

So sorry for ya’ dude. That would have been so good... Bummer.

[ September 09, 2003, 07:14 PM: Message edited by: Chris -CA123 ]

(from the other thread)

Jill,
we have the ability to think and reason and choose our own way of interpeting what the bible says.
Where in the bible (specifically or generically) did you interpret that it was okay to date while married?

Chris and Steadfast,

I was married by a minister in church. I gave my heart and soul to my ex husband. I was a good wife and mother for 17 years. It was my husband who chose to end the trust by having 2 ow. When I chose to divorce it was the hardest thing in the world for me but I knew that our union was gone. Even my minister told me that I had done all I could and it was time to let go. It was after that, that I felt divorced, when I felt that sadness of losing something I never thought I would lose. When I stood alone in front of the judge that day I felt nothing I was already divorced in my mind and that signature by that man meant nothing.

Someday you may meet a wonderful person, a person who may fulfill your life more than you ever thought possible and it may go through your mind if I had stayed married I would have never met this person.

I always say everything happens for a reason. It just takes some people longer to realize what the reason is. My Fiancee is a wonderful man, I am happier now than I have been my whole life. I used to live in fear, now I live in happiness. I believe God was watching out for me and decided maybe I needed a little happiness.

I hope someday you can find happiness also.

Jill

Chris,

Just how did they divorce in those days?? Do you know?? Was it a long time consuming thing back then or was it a quick one day affair??

I'm sure they did divorce so how was it done. At the time the bible was written I'm sure it was a simple matter. The woman was probably cast out of her house to fend for herself. That seems to be how women were treated then(but that is a whole different debate).

Whoa Chris.......... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> I was actually friends with my wife before we started dating, so I did get to know her very well. Anyhow, lets leave her out of this........we are talking about our differences in opinion.

Whats funny is........my EX was/is still in the church.....she is extremely active in the choir, womans ministry and several other things. She was/is having an affair with a married guy at the same church.

Funny how those who are supposed to be saved, still fall quite short. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

My EX turned our marriage into a piece of paper when she chose the other route. YES, that is what I think it is.....a piece of paper. As I have said.....Im very happy now, and do not regret a thing.

God Bless and have a good day. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Jill,
we have the ability to think and reason and choose our own way of interpeting what the bible says.
Where in the bible (specifically or generically) did you interpret that it was okay to date while married?

Just how did they divorce in those days?? Do you know?? Was it a long time consuming thing back then or was it a quick one day affair??
Does this mean the bible doesn't "apply" now and it should be "adapted" to our "new" customs/laws?
And if it took only a few days for divorce, that we CAN change the way we interpret the bible because it now takes longer for a divorce? We make the bible fit our lives instead of vice-versa?

SO,
Anyhow, lets leave her out of this........
You brought her up. Time & time again.
I absolutely mean nothing against you or her and wish you nothing but the best.

we are talking about our differences in opinion
Sort of.
You were talking about, "I wasnt willing to risk losing a marvelous woman whom meets all of my needs for a piece of paper that wasnt worth the ink printed on it".

My EX turned our marriage into a piece of paper when she chose the other route. YES, that is what I think it is.....a piece of paper. As I have said.....
Answer the question? Why did you get married again? It's only "a piece of paper."

and from the other thread.
Jim's first post.
My new girlfriend thinks I should file for divorce, and I guess I think so to, afterall, I don't really want her back anymore.
He was dating BEFORE he even decided to divorce.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Chris -CA123:
Answer the question? Why did you get married again? It's only "a piece of paper."<hr /></blockquote>Cmon Chris, I answered that already...........It became a piece of paper after the EX waywards broken vows of adultery.

We will have to agree to disagree.......have a good one.

[ September 10, 2003, 10:08 AM: Message edited by: StartinOver ]

So it's up to your spouse, not you, to define what marriage means to you?

[ September 10, 2003, 10:37 AM: Message edited by: Chris -CA123 ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Chris -CA123:
So it's up to your spouse, not you, to define what marriage means to you?<hr /></blockquote>If the spouse strays.....I think they just dictated what marriage is to that couple.

So why not reply to what I wrote instead of making up new stuff?
I italicized you because I was not looking for what marriage is to the couple, but you as an individual. And you let her dictate what your definition of marriage is.

[ September 10, 2003, 11:19 AM: Message edited by: Chris -CA123 ]

Why do you always answer a question with a question?

Ahh, now I understand. You are here simply to troll and cause a "ruckus" and are not really concerned with what any of these discussions actually are.

Why do you always answer a question with a question?
I don't understand this. Where do I "always" do this?

Usually I don't ask a question to answer your question. I ask a question of your (non-question) reply to get a clarification.
Such as a previous post in this topic
"what if by chance, by waiting on her all that time, you missed the opportunity to meet someone perfect for you?
Then I didn’t lose anything, did I?"

This is the only reply to you where my answer is a question. And my reply is not really a question, more of a statement.

Hahahahaha...........Have a good one. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Chris,
Going back to your original question, yes the way you put it perhaps it is a double standard. I for one didn't date for almost 1 year after the divorce because I wanted to heal before I even thought about getting into another relationship.

The difference is that the WS cheated while still living in the home and sharing their life with the BS. They do it by sneaking around and hurting everyone involved.

The BS who dates before the divorce is final is not doing any of those things. They are right or wrong just trying to rebuild their lives the best way they can.

I myself feel that it depends on the circumstances of the divorce. the length of time it has taken to obtain the divorce, children ect. I can't see where one can generalize this topic.

Jill

Jill,

[safe discussion mode on] <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I myself feel that it depends on the circumstances of the divorce. the length of time it has taken to obtain the divorce, children ect.
So, in your view, when would it be “acceptable” to date while still married? Under what circumstances (such as what you listed above)

I can't see where one can generalize this topic.
Because?

[ September 10, 2003, 11:50 PM: Message edited by: Chris -CA123 ]

I might regret posting... it's a little volitile in here. Personally, the only comment I want to really make is what was said about a woman who meets "ALL" your needs and about someone "PERFECT" for you. Personally, I don't believe anyone can meet "all" your needs but God and that is a VERY high expectation to put on anyone that can only last so long. Secondly, no one is "perfect" and many marriages fail because people expect both perfection and someone to meet all their needs. We need to be realistic about people, relationships, and marriage. I, for one, haven't even considered dating and it's been almost a year since my divorce. I am NOWHERE close to even wanting to date! I don't have a single fear though about "missing" someone. I fully trust the Lord that He won't let me "miss" someone if there is another "someone" for me, which personally I would like to be content without a someone. I don't want to hinge my happiness on another person.

Chris, as to your question, I already shared my beliefs on the other thread, but no, I do not think it is okay in the eyes of God to date before you are divorced.

Like I said before, I think alot of people jump immediately into new relationships to help them get over the pain of the divorce. They believe they've found their "soulmate" and the "perfect" person, but for how long?? People need to deal with whatever it was in their first marriage that caused problems. It rarely ever is just one person's "fault." Also, I think that during and after a divorce, people are VERY emotionally vulnerable and "blinded" in a way. They are not strong in many ways. It is very risky to go immediately into a new relationship. It is like riding a bike, crashing and having a broken leg, and then riding a new bike right away even though the leg has not healed. It takes time to heal and grow, etc.

Well, I've said more than I care to say.

But even if a spouse cheats, that does not justify your "cheating." It is just like a child who steals something because someone else stole something. The act is still wrong regardless of the pain you are in or regardless of it the whole entire world was doing it. Didn't God wipe out the whole world except Noah because ALL of them were sinning? Obeying God's Word is not popular... never has been... people don't want to believe and satan deceives them into thinking that God doesn't really "mean it." Just like Eve. He said, "Oh, Eve, God didn't really mean you couldn't eat the fruit." And he showed her how "it won't hurt," etc.

Whether people believe or not, whether they obey or not, God's Word stands and it is truth and it cannot be nullified by the justifications of people. God tells us to obey the law. That piece of "paper" is the law that says you are STILL married. If the law says you are married, then you are married, no "ifs," "ands," or "buts."

Think of it this way. Let's say you marry your girlfriend before your divorce is final. What will the law call you? A polygamist!!

I think I just started a psuedo simalar thread--oops. My point will go well in here, too I think:
*pulls up soap box and hops on in attempt to make peace in hostile atmosphere--ducks tomatos*

We are all in differant stages of life and differant stages of healing. You cannot expect people in completely differant places to think the same way. We are all dealing with our situations the best way we know how--and for most of us, we've never been here before so it's new grounds. People at difft. ages have COMPLETLY differant perspectives on life, and completly differant things that are important to them- it is all part of life, and it doesn't mean older people are right about everything-it only means they are at a place the rest of us haven't been to yet, while they have been where we are. Like it or not, no one is going to adopt anyone else's opinion on this matter just because you argue enough. Everyone has an opinion based on their own, personal life experiences and their own personal beliefs about what God does and does not accept (if they believe in God at all). Each person is going to get to tomorrow based on their opinions--nobody else's--and they will survive whether you do or not. We should accept simple truths like that and try to learn what we can from other people's experiences and interpretations--not just tell them they are wrong because we don't agree. Until we die and our maker explains it all to us, you really can't be 100% certain at any rate.

*hops off soap box*

As for dating before divorce decree is final--
I have to say, unless you just run out while still w/ your spouse or day/weeks after seperating.. if you 1.give the spouse ample time to come back or talk or something and all you get is divorce papers 2.realize that you were disrespected and unloved in the relationship and there is no chance for reconciliation based on the years of compounded lies and betrayals anbd find you are happier alone (but have sense to know when you cannot afford to be legally done with them yet)3.know they have moved on or could care less about you -- then there is no reason for you not to go our for some casual dating (though I think it should be after at least 6mths and after papers have been filed...and I also don't think it should be sexual).

[ September 11, 2003, 12:41 AM: Message edited by: Epiph0ny ]

Thankyou EpiphOny,
You just said what I was going to say. I guess I never thought about the sexual aspect and going back and rereading threads here nobody said anything about having a sexual relationship with the girlfrend-boyfriend. Perhaps to many here are just jumping to conclusions!!

LoveMyEx........."meeting all the needs" and "perfect" was a bit of an exxageration, what I really meant is that she is more suited to me. We get along great and fill each others needs more than our prior relationship. Our personalities compliment each other and do not clash. Absolutely NOONE in my family, or my friends were upset, or suprised my 1st marriage would not last. My EX had a horrible attitude and treated my entire family like dirt. That being said.......I STILL TRIED TO KEEP THE MARRIAGE TOGETHER.......because I know god hates divorce as do I. After my remarriage, I realize my divorce was for the best, my prior household was volatile and there is no telling what may have happened if we would not have parted. Then people wonder why there is domestic violence and spouses end up killing each other. Oil and Water do not mix.

[ September 11, 2003, 08:15 AM: Message edited by: StartinOver ]

As for dating before divorce decree is final--
I have to say, unless you just run out while still w/ your spouse or day/weeks after seperating.. if you 1.give the spouse ample time to come back or talk or something and all you get is divorce papers 2.realize that you were disrespected and unloved in the relationship and there is no chance for reconciliation based on the years of compounded lies and betrayals anbd find you are happier alone (but have sense to know when you cannot afford to be legally done with them yet)3.know they have moved on or could care less about you -- then there is no reason for you not to go our for some casual dating
There are many ws that feel this way prior to an affair. They have tried for years to get their spouse to be a "partner" in the marriage. Why is it wrong for them to "date".

As far as #2 above, it's okay to stay married for money?

This thread you said,
My EX turned our marriage into a piece of paper when she chose the other route. YES, that is what I think it is.....a piece of paper.

from the other thread,
If a person leaves thier spouse, lives with them, has multiple partners, doenst want to reconcile with thier spouse.....there is NO MARRIAGE. How can it be a marriage?
Because, according to you, a piece of paper is a marriage and the paper is still there.

[ September 11, 2003, 09:59 AM: Message edited by: Chris -CA123 ]

Everyone have a great weekend! Im off to eat lunch with my wife. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Chrisca123,
You have posted on this before and while I wholeheartedly agree with you, i think you are beating a dead horse. Some people just are not going to get it. StartinOver is one of them. See he is confused. I don't understand why a BS would ever think they could date before the divorce was final in light of all that happened, but I guess I just don't ever want to be thought of as a WS. I started dealing with my situation with integrity, and I wanted to finish it with integrity.
Again I appreciate your efforts but I just don't think it is getting through sometimes and I think you are frustrating yourself.

adgirl48...............Im confused???? I did what I did......I married whom I fell in love with.....look at your signature and YOU tell me who is confused. Look at your storyline and you tell me who is confused. Hahahahahaha......Im out. Going to lunch with my wife.

You can disagree without being rude. (or most can <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> )

My point of this thread was to not "threadjack" someone elses.

[ September 11, 2003, 11:12 AM: Message edited by: Chris -CA123 ]

Why do you ask this chris? Academic curiosity, or application in your own life?

It appears at first blush you have asked an eye of beholder question (what is beauty, what is pornograhy, when does life begin...etc.). And it can me answered in that sense, it is okay to "date" when one says it is (for themself), afterall they are the one who will experience the consequences...true? In that case "discussion" only serves to help one uncover their own emotional state so they can act in congruence with who they are (thereby reducing the debilitation of anxiety/stress/angst)....and their will be no definitive universal answer. For the most part that is as far as one will get with this question....however, I do think there is a definitive answer underlying the personal choice (just as their is an underlying truth re beauty that applies to all human beings...but that is another discussion, ditto porn, abortion, and ALL issues).

So I will try to convey what I percieve to be the underlying principles you seek, you may concur or not. I will also address the semantic confusion endemic to such questions.

c...If it's okay to "date" while married because your spouse left and there is nothing left of the marriage except the paper, then why get married at all?

sufdb..

1. Define ok. Spiritually, medically, psychologically, culturally, legally...what do you mean by ok, what are the assumptions and consequences? Depending on how you define ok, your answer will follow, and sometimes it will be yes, sometimes no....if we view this situationally, and by outcome (which is what "okay" implies). Because of this you will have much contention as people are essentially debateing their own definition of ok.

2. You also need to define married. It is either a legal contract (ie a piece of paper)....or it is a psychological condition of mutual choice to live in a particular manner. It cannot be both. I think most of us would agree marriage is #2, with #1 simply the legal establishment of the condition within the social order. Are you ok with this?

3. I assume date means any interaction with the opposite gender that does not exclude the potential for a mating relationship? As opposed to "dating" just to get out of the house and interact with folks.

c...My "argument" is that until a divorce is final, then don't date.

sufdb...That is not an argument (which requires supporting proof), it is a statement, a rule. As such it cannot be refuted...But it does not have to be followed either.

c...If a spouse feels a marriage is over and goes out and "dates", why is it wrong?
If the bs then goes out and dates, it's okay?

sufdb...Unclear, are you refering to affairs? If so the wrong can be demonstrated in terms of consequences, most rights and wrongs are determined by consequences actually...and one can make essentially an air-tight case why affairs are "wrong" strategies. I am not sure what you meant by bs dating...

chris...If you want to date, then get a divorce.

sufdb...I agree, isn't that what we are discussing, when are you actually divorced (in terms of free to date)?

There are people who do date and have no intention of divorceing. IMO that is wrong, by any standard one cares to apply. You seem to be asking more about when is one free to date, which requires a through understanding and agreement about when is one married or divorced.

I am not going to write a treatsie here, so will just state the barest outline of my position on this issue.

1. Marriage is not determined by a piece of paper (neither is divorce for that matter).

2. The condition of intimacy/synergy (in a monagmous, heterosexual paradigm) we seek and refer to by the term marriage requires certain conditions be met....that means many people who think they are married are in fact....not....and less common, but some folks who think they are divorced...are not also.

3. Marriage is a completely voluntary, freewill choice, it cannot be maintained or instigated by external constraints (shotgun weddings, arranged weddings, external coercion/manipulations..ie goldiggers, and so forth). It requires proper and informed intent, coupled with absolutely no coercion of any kind (either imposed, or self-impopsed). This intent must be in place all the time, the marriage ends immediately upon cessation of this intent.

4. Marriage is two tier, the actual marriage is an emotional/psychological condition referred to in #3...but it also has a socio/econimic component which is manifested by the "piece of paper". The rightness or wrongness of dating is in the realm of #3, and has nothing to do with #4. It is IMO the lack of understanding re this dual nature of marriage that leads to arguments like the ones in this thread. For those who disagree consider this..... if you were the only two people present (say shipwrecked on a desert island for a lifetime), would #3 or #4 define marriage? Clearly #4 is not required, hence it has nothing to do with marriage, and is therefore irrelevant to dating. In the primal sense you are married when you choose to be, and not married (divorced) when you choose not to be. So the answer chris, is it is okay to date when you ACCURATELY" assess your intent re the individual you are attemting marriage with....folks in affairs, or when seperated (or even divorvced) are often quite confused about this, and therefore it is not "okay" for them to date.

Many folks find introspection, self-analysis, and the courage of their convictions difficult to apply, so they default to external rules, that feels "safer"....ie it is not ok to date until the judge says so. Personally I am not one to give over self-determination to someone else, I think that is the point starting over was trying to make (but he did a terrible job of making it, and let his nose get out of joint as well...).

One can spend a fair amount of time fleshing out all the whys and wherefores of my position, perhaps you can read between the lines, but if you want clarification ask a specific question. I have purposefully left out the spiritual arguments (just leads to a whole nother area of conflict starting with whether God even exists, but suffice to say I feel comfortable the principles apply spiritually as well).

Chris- in my post (pg2) I ment for ALL those conditions to be in place, and that included a divorce petition. Therefore I don't think I am condoning affairs.
As for staying married for money...I worded it wrong, I suppose. I was trying to say that if the only reason divorce papers are not final is because in the process of settlement and/or mediation, you come to an agreement with your x to remain legally married for a specified period of time-though seperated- for some financial reason (ie: health, car insurance) until the spouse is able to afford their own way (making this a legal seperation agreement with a definate condition of divorce)--then that, compiled with my other conditions, makes non-sexual (ok to kiss) dating perfectly acceptable in my opinion.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by StartinOver:
adgirl48...............Im confused???? I did what I did......I married whom I fell in love with.....look at your signature and YOU tell me who is confused. Look at your storyline and you tell me who is confused. Hahahahahaha......Im out. Going to lunch with my wife.<hr /></blockquote>Startinover I just wondered, do you read what you write? Do you also read the graemlins and what they mean? Chris wrote a post to you and you simply wrote back :
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />
This is the graemlin for confused. Sweetie, I have read my life, I know how ugly it is, I am simply doing the best I can right now to move forward, and I feel pretty confident I can do that with myself, God and someday a man who truly loves me.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Chris -CA123:
You can disagree without being rude. (or most can <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> )

My point of this thread was to not "threadjack" someone elses.<hr /></blockquote>Oh certainly, I hope you don't think I was rude. I was just trying to say that I understand your frustrations.

I have answered Chris's question as best I could, but I will try to simplify it even further.

I feel it is OK to date, once the marriage vows have been broken and both parties feel a divorce is imminant WITHOUT any reconciliation.

That is just how I feel. IMHO.. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Oh certainly, I hope you don't think I was rude. I was just trying to say that I understand your frustrations.
No, SO was being rude.

[ September 11, 2003, 01:06 PM: Message edited by: Chris -CA123 ]

Why do you ask this chris? Academic curiosity, or application in your own life?
I wasn’t asking for ME but to get others viewpoints on why they seem to think it’s okay.
I don’t think it’s “okay”. A few people in these forums not only say it’s “okay” but that it should be done. Somehow “dating” is synonymous with “moving on” and one cannot “move on” unless one dates.

Also, it goes back to what one believes in marriage and why they choose to get married. If marriage is only a piece of paper, why spend $20 on it and then a couple grand on a wedding? Just say “I love you, let’s live together” and spend the money on a trip to the Bahamas instead of a wedding.

1. Define ok. Spiritually, medically, psychologically, culturally, legally...what do you mean by ok,
I mean acceptable to someone for any reason.
- Most (mainstream) religions do not accept it.
- Medically?
- Psychologically is probably a big one. If one has not dealt with the previous relationship, then it’s time for Jung, Frued and Maslow (and others) to roll over and have a ball proving their theories and studies.
- Culturally it is frowned upon by society but very much accepted by individuals as a whole. (Get my meaning here?)
- Legally it is discouraged but not much is ever done about it.

2. You also need to define married. It is either a legal contract (ie a piece of paper)....or it is a psychological condition of mutual choice to live in a particular manner. It cannot be both. I think most of us would agree marriage is #2, with #1 simply the legal establishment of the condition within the social order. Are you ok with this?
Very much so. But if you read my previous posts here, you see why I ask the question.

3. I assume date means any interaction with the opposite gender that does not exclude the potential for a mating relationship?
How about that it specifically includes a potential for a “mating relationship”?

As opposed to "dating" just to get out of the house and interact with folks.
Then I personally would not call it dating. I would call it going out with some friends.

c...My "argument" is that until a divorce is final, then don't date..
sufdb...That is not an argument (which requires supporting proof), it is a statement, a rule. As such it cannot be refuted...But it does not have to be followed either.
Semantics, shemantics... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> But you are correct, it’s not an “argument

[b]c...If a spouse feels a marriage is over and goes out and "dates", why is it wrong?
If the bs then goes out and dates, it's okay?

sufdb...Unclear, are you refering to affairs?
Yes. A (ws) spouse feels the marriage is over and has worked many years trying to get the other involved and they don’t get involved”. The end up in a relationship and it’s called an affair.
But, once this is done, then the other spouse (bs) can do the exact same and it’s NOT an affair.

It’s as if ones own rules are changed depending on who they are applied to. ???

I am not sure what you meant by bs dating...
See above.

chris...If you want to date, then get a divorce.

sufdb...I agree, isn't that what we are discussing, when are you actually divorced (in terms of free to date)?
Exactly. If you have a belief of what marriage is, you should have some belief of what divorce is. Can the two overlap? I think not.

Personally I am not one to give over self-determination to someone else, I think that is the point starting over was trying to make (but he did a terrible job of making it, and let his nose get out of joint as well...).
I too, think that is his point but he is trying to make it using very poor logic. (no, I’m not Mr. Spock)

I have purposefully left out the spiritual arguments
But as you have probably seen, some try to use whatever they can to “justify” “dating” and when their “argument” (for lack of a better term) is not clear or valid, rather than simply saying, “I want to do it”, they try to back it with nonsensical or unclear examples.

Sometimes people do things they know are wrong. Sometimes people are not sure if it’s right or wrong and still do them. Other times people know it’s wrong and don’t do it. But for one’s own sake, they should try to understand why they make/made certain decisions.

Ok I have been reading this post from the beginning and at one point I wanted to jump in and say - Ding - Ding - Round #2 has begun... The simple fact is that everyone is entitled to their own opinion - everyone is different that is what makes the world go around... I mean I actually didn't start dating until my divorce was over - and final but still - I don't even think I was ready for that because I ended up in a relationship that right now I believe is just turning to plain friendship - which is ok - at least I am aware of this - But sometimes I think divorces drag on and on - and sometimes it is of no fault of the BS - so in a case like that - I don't think that it is fair to say that person cannot date because he or she will be cheating... -- I mean there are alot of reasons why divorces are prolonged and some of them maybe out of the BS's control - so why should they put their life on hold.. Most people in a situation where they have been betrayed by a spouse really don't want the divorce in the first place - so before the divorce starts I am sure there has been a lot of soul searching.... So if that case - I don't think that any one person has the right to tell them they are wrong or not... In Startin over's case - he met someone and fell in love and he is happy - so good for him - Isn't that what we all want - We don't want that WS to win - we don't want to end up bitter and resentful for the rest of our lives - so I think if you find someone you like - then to each their own -- Everyone knows what is best for them - and they can make their decisions....

c...Sometimes people do things they know are wrong. Sometimes people are not sure if it’s right or wrong and still do them. Other times people know it’s wrong and don’t do it.

But for one’s own sake, they should try to understand why they make/made certain decisions.

sufdb....Amen brother, and pass the ammo.

[ September 11, 2003, 01:25 PM: Message edited by: sufdb ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by maw64:
In Startin over's case - he met someone and fell in love and he is happy - so good for him - Isn't that what we all want - We don't want that WS to win - we don't want to end up bitter and resentful for the rest of our lives - so I think if you find someone you like - then to each their own -- Everyone knows what is best for them - and they can make their decisions....<hr /></blockquote>Thank you very much for the support, I didnt mean to get pissy.....but I was the one being attacked for voicing an opinion. Then Chris brought my dating before my divorce wasnt final......which I never denied, but he tried to put me down for it. Im not upset with anyone here, but please let us have our own opinions without being hammered.

[ September 11, 2003, 01:31 PM: Message edited by: StartinOver ]

Startin Over - You are very welcome - I just don't think that everyone has to do everything the same way - What is good for one person might not be good for another - !!! I mean like I said I waited until after I was divorced - but I am thinking instead of just getting out there dating - I ended up in a serious relationship and it just isn't what I need right now - but I had to make that choice on my own - my own decision... People learn by their mistakes - sorry to say but no one is perfect... And for the record I don't think you sounded pissy at all - but you guys can bicker back and forth about this forever and there is never going to be one right answer or one wrong answer - there will be plenty of opinions for sure - but it all comes down to - you are the one that has to live with your decisions - So you are entitled to make your own... And I for one am happy to know that after all of this crap I have been through that maybe just maybe there might be someone out their perfect for me like your wife is for you Startin Over...!!! You give me hope.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Just for the record maw64......my wife was a friend of a friend whom I met at Chuck e Cheese with our kids. We never went out or anything.....just talked when we would run into each other. Later I found out she was divorced from a serial cheater.....so we had alot to talk about and alot in common. We never intended on getting together at all.......as a matter of fact, I had told her I was gonna be a single guy forever. Well, things didnt turn out as expected......we fell in love and ended up married. What in the world was so wrong with that?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

I mean there are alot of reasons why divorces are prolonged and some of them maybe out of the BS's control
Yes. but one reason this specific thread was started was niceguyjim said, "My new girlfriend thinks I should file for divorce, and I guess I think so to, afterall, I don't really want her back anymore."

If he has not even decided to file for divorce, why does he have a girlfriend? Does this mean that he thinks it's okay to date while married and not even seeking a divorce?

girlfriend said it has been a year and - so why should they put their life on hold.
And as I have expressed numerous times, why does not dating mean they are putting their life on hold? The ONLY way they can "move on" is to date?

From where I am sitting - I am thinking nothing - <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I hope that I only get so lucky...

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Chris -CA123:
[QBgirlfriend said it has been a year and - so why should they put their life on hold.
And as I have expressed numerous times, why does not dating mean they are putting their life on hold? The ONLY way they can "move on" is to date?[/QB]<hr /></blockquote>Chris..........dating is ONE WAY to move on.....not the only. Everyone is different and dating and entering new relationships is a way of moving on. I happen to like the company of a woman.......hence I dated and ended up in a relationship. Even though I said I was gonna stay single......Im obviously not built to be by myself. I love companionship. I love a partner.....is something wrong with me???

Chris - I think the question becomes - what does it matter to you that niceguyjim has a girlfriend??? I mean yes we have our opinions but you are somewhat preaching - that what is right for you and what you believe in should be right for everyone - and unfortunately that is not the case - In a perfect world maybe - then maybe there wouldn't be so many affairs - but in reality - this is not the case... Sure some people can say you are not better than that WS because you are dating someone before you are divorced - or someone can say - listen he/she has been dating while you were married go out there and have some fun considering all of the pain and anguish you have been through !! Now who is wrong and who is right ??? There really is not right or wrong answer.... There are people who never will ever get divorced because they don't believe in it - (regardless of what the spouse did) or sometimes people just cannot afford it - so there really is no cut and dry answer... Niceguyjim and Startin over did what was right for them just as you are doing what is right for you... And you know what - in my eyes you are all right because it is your life to live how you want to....

Then Chris brought my dating before my divorce wasnt final......which I never denied, but he tried to put me down for it.
Uh, I never tried to put you down for it. I simply said you did it (dated before divorce).

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by StartinOver:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Chris -CA123:
[QBgirlfriend said it has been a year and - so why should they put their life on hold.
And as I have expressed numerous times, why does not dating mean they are putting their life on hold? The ONLY way they can "move on" is to date?<hr /></blockquote>Chris..........dating is ONE WAY to move on.....not the only.[QB]<hr /></blockquote>But if someone is considering dating, you say, "Good for you do. Do it. You need to/should move on" as if it's the only way to move on.

what does it matter to you that niceguyjim has a girlfriend???
I was not concerned specifically with jim's dating situation (as I have not been concerned with SO's dating situation)

I was steering clear of that specific issue of HIS, which is why I brought it over to this thread. Again, not specifically about his dating but the topic as a whole.

Sure some people can say you are not better than that WS because you are dating someone before you are divorced
That's not what I am trying to do (put down people by saying they are doing the same as the ws) but using that as an example is pretty easy.
Some people date immediately upon separation, find someone and get married and are happy. But this is the exception and not the norm. Also, they ALMOST always, did not have a chance to deal with the end of their previous relationship which will usually come around & bite them in the [censored] later.

This is not my opinion but a majority of "realtionship" experts and studies.

[ September 11, 2003, 02:27 PM: Message edited by: Chris -CA123 ]

Ok !!! Got ya !!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

maw..I think the question becomes - what does it matter to you (chris) that niceguyjim has a girlfriend???

sufdb...These things "matter" to chris, (and me, and others of our ilk), cause we seek a predictable enviroment to live in. We want to be able to "trust" others will act in ways we understand, as well as be confident our actions are predictable and do not create conflict. This assures all of us greater ability to have productive lives (meaning not wasting time and resources on resolving needless conflicts or recovering from unexpected injury). Hence folks with such concerns seek public discussion and social pressure to promote such outcomes. Clearly human beings will do what they want, it is the nature of our species, just as clearly that leads to very poor social outcomes unless individual needs are balanced against the benefits of a predictable social order. So advocacy such as this is of value, and certainly expectations re the "rules" of interpersonal relationships have a profound affect on a society.

maw...I mean yes we have our opinions but you are somewhat preaching - that what is right for you and what you believe in should be right for everyone -

sufdb...Yep. And that is ok, it is what we all do if we feel strongly enough about the issue, I bet you do too. The preaching complaint (if true, and I don't see any preaching going on myself), would not invalidate the process, it just would be a wakeuo call to chris he is losing his audience and needs to fine tune his persuasion tools...or it can mean the complaintant (you) is using an unjustified charge to further their agenda, which is (judgeing by what you wrote) to have maximum freedom (in an acceptable social sense) to date.

maw...Sure some people can say you are not better than that WS because you are dating someone before you are divorced - or someone can say - listen he/she has been dating while you were married go out there and have some fun considering all of the pain and anguish you have been through !! Now who is wrong and who is right ???

sufdb...I didn't hear chris say that, I did hear him draw a logical inference and ask for discussion about it. If a bs "dates" while married, and used the argument the ws was wrong solely on that basis, then they in fact are no different. But as you point out, it is not that simple usually. And also IMO there is a far greater expectation that the marriage is in fact over before a bs dates and the ws is aware of that. So that brings us back to my position, that all of this depends on what marriage is, and when is it over. I support the concept a married person should not date under any circumstances. But I also support the understanding marriage is not determined by a piece of paper.

maw...There really is not right or wrong answer....

sufdb...I disagree, I think there are very clear right and wrong answers once one understands and applies the relevant underlying principles, that apply to everyone...assuming we all seek a stable society.

maw...There are people who never will ever get divorced because they don't believe in it -

sufdb...There is no way one person can force marriage, so one who says they are not divorced just cause they don't believe it, has revealed themselves to be mentally ill ie. unable to understand reality. They may choose themself not to seek divorce (being extremely rule motivated), but they cannot prevent someone from divorcing them, which is the same thing, the marriage ends, and they are divorced.

maw...so there really is no cut and dry answer...

sufdb...I agree, any answer requires a significant discussion of the actual circumstances to arrive at a conclusion as to ones actual marital status, which determines the freedom to date.

maw...Niceguyjim and Startin over did what was right for them just as you are doing what is right for you... And you know what - in my eyes you are all right because it is your life to live how you want to....

sufdb...maybe, maybe not, maybe they made a mistake....but anyways if they did not understand the principles, and apply them, it was a roll of the dice, luck, that they made the right choice. And IMO people who make decisions without understanding why are less safe than those who do, even if those who do make an error. But I agree we all have the fundamental right to live our life how we want too....just don't cry about the consequences if you do it shooting from the hip.

If someone IS dating I usually tread very lightly concerning their specific situation.

But talking about the subject in general, I'm just a little shy <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> .

Chris,
If you have the time, I posted to you on GQII.
You have been heavy on my heart the last two days

thanks
tsc

BTW-- Not everyone agrees with my take on when it is acceptable to date after/during divorce or seperation. (I can see that now!)
In my take on what the bible says, If I were to divorce my husband because he cheated....I could divorce him (in three months in my state.).and date AFTER it was final,WHEN I was ready. God would honor and bless this.

In my take on what the Bible says about divorce for [i]other [/i] reasons than adultry( breaking the covenant)...........IF you end up divorced for another reason.......you should never marry again.
I'm not saying what is "right" or "wrong". Not really wanting to judge what anyone has done or is doing. Just what I believe God is saying to me.

tsc

[ September 11, 2003, 09:06 PM: Message edited by: tsc ]

TSC, Hi! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I am going to check out your story because I saw that you "renewed" your vows?! How wonderful! I think I hear exactly where you are coming from and also totally understand your discretion in sharing it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I have studied divorce/marriage/remarriage all year, with much prayer, from the Bible and from reading other pastors. My situation was so "unique" in some ways. And, there was no adultery. And both Christians. My husband actually sounds alot like Starting Over, but I am sure they aren't the same person because details aren't the same. And I don't really want to share why they sound alike 'cause I don't want to share about my marriage/divorce here. But... I do hear where you are coming from. I know what God's Word says about divorce/remarriage and that is why I remain single. I will remain single until my husband remarries. I like what adgirl said about integrity because I feel the same way. Actually, this is one of the first times in my life I have not been dating or married, or had a longing too. And it is good. It is good to be simply seeking the Lord, and not a man, to meet my needs. It has even been good to "suffer" and hurt in the ways I have. I know that sounds strange to some, but it is refining me and causing me to grow and other things. Anyways...when my husband remarries, according to the Bible I will no longer be bound, and I think you would know why that is. I still hope and pray that he doesn't remarry because I love him, and I certainly won't have a party when he does or even think "yay, I'm free now to remarry." Actually, I don't know if I ever will want to remarry. I am still young though, but it would be wrong to marry someone when I still love him and it will take time for me to get to a place where I would be willing to love someone else. Right now, the idea of loving another man almost repulses me.

Well, I still said again more than I wanted. I don't feel up for this bru-ha-ha in here... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

OUT OF CURIOSITY... I was wondering and have wondered before, and this is no offense to anyone... but since this is a divorced thread and many here are remarried and say they are happily remarried, why are they in here? Again, I am not asking sarcastically but honestly curious. I came here several months ago seeking prayer and advice on reconciliation. I only came in here a few days though. Then, I recently came back in but it was to find out about something someone said about a restored marriage from advice given here, and I thought maybe it was me who gave that advice and how wonderful that would be that I was used to help restore a marriage. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Silly, I know. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> But then I had a desire to encourage others who were seeking reconciliation because that is where my heart is... helping others reconcile their marriages. But, anyways... I was just wondering why happily remarried spouses come to a divorced forum? Maybe you have been here for awhile? I'm not sure, but I have wondered about it?

God bless.

lovemyex-
hello! Nice to hear from you. Actually, I've never been here before. First time. I had posted to Chris-CA for another reason over in GQII, and another poster told me he was spending a lot of time over here. I just came looking for him to send him over to my question on GQII.
His thread was so long, so I started reading. Then I couldn't resist putting my oppinion out there. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
I honestly do not know what I would have done if my husband and I had gotten DV. Still don't. if we divorced for another reason, I don't know for sure what I'd do. I only know what I think God's instructions are. And I would hope I would be able to follow them.

Good luck to you. Don't know what your circumstanses are, but by your name......who knows; sometimes people get remarried. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
I am usually (always, really) over on the Recovery board. I will be there for a very long time.......

God Bless
tsc

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Chris -CA123:
Oh certainly, I hope you don't think I was rude. I was just trying to say that I understand your frustrations.
No, SO was being rude.<hr /></blockquote>Yeh he was. Just because I said he was confused because he said he was confused (the <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> graemlin) he threw my "storyline" in my face. That isn't playing nice is it? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" />

Uhh...and saying IM CONFUSED is not rude adgirl48? You do not even really know me. You based your comment about my confusion on a few threads. Im not confused at all......I wanted to keep my first marriage together, my EX wanted to divorce to be with OM........I met someone I fell in love with and remarried.....Where is the confusion???? The fact that Im remarried to someone I love and is much better for me as a spouse? Where is the confusion?

sufdb- OK I read your response to my response - Whatever - I mean I am not going to get into a big huge disagreement - all I was doing was trying to say that everyone has their own opinions - I guess I was trying to stick up for Startin Over again - because I felt that he was getting preached to - My mistake !!! Ok - I am not going to debate this issue - OK -

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by maw64:
Ok - I am not going to debate this issue - OK -<hr /></blockquote>Neither am I.......Have a good day! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

??¬
?\riginally posted by StartinOver:
Uhh...and saying IM CONFUSED is not rude adgirl48? You do not even really know me. You based your comment about my confusion on a few threads. Im not confused at all......I wanted to keep my first marriage together, my EX wanted to divorce to be with OM........I met someone I fell in love with and remarried.....Where is the confusion???? The fact that Im remarried to someone I love and is much better for me as a spouse? Where is the confusion?[/QUOTE]

Startin Over. DO YOU READ WHAT YOU WRITE?????? I said you were confused because YOU said you were confused. About what Chris was saying. You did the confused graemlin. SO no, it is not rude to repeat what you yourself said.

Oh.....adgirl48 Im very sorry.....My apology to you......God Bless..... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Haven't read nearly all this thread. Just too long!LOL

Chris,
Excuse me for being blunt, but I am curious. You have come off pretty judgemental and mean-spirited, between the "God" lines. (why is it that some of the worst people on boards are the ones touting that they are Christians?) Just pondering that one. Are you married, divored, separated? Has a woman hurt you badly by cheating on you?

Only trying to figure out why you are attacking those who choose to date before their divorce is final.

Chris,
You have come off pretty judgemental and mean-spirited,
How do you classify "mean spirited"?

between the "God" lines
My "God lines" are only in response to others "God lines" meaning I don't bring up God unless they do first.

why is it that some of the worst people on boards are the ones touting that they are Christians?)
That would mean that some of the worst ones are people not touting to be Christians. What's your point?

Are you married, divored, separated? Has a woman hurt you badly by cheating on you?
I'm divorced. My (now ex) wife wife took off after 19 years, leaing me & 2 daughters (8 & 2 then). Sure I was hurt. But marriage is an important part of society. This discussion is based on people who seem to have double standards.

Only trying to figure out why you are attacking those who choose to date before their divorce is final.
Who did I attack? Where did I write attacking an individual for dating prior to divorce?

[ September 12, 2003, 11:54 AM: Message edited by: Chris -CA123 ]

Thanks for your response Chris. Didn't have much time to hang out on here and didn't know if you were on.

Your situation with your EXW explains a lot. My EXH left me also with two children and it's not easy raising children by yourself.

By the pondering over "worst people", I DID/DO mean the they ARE the worst people you encounter. Have never figured out why that is? Also, at work, the people who have voicemails that end with "Have a Blessed Day" are always the nastiest to deal with. It doesn't make sense to me. Another tidbit is, told to me by a waiter, that the very worst tippers are the church crowd. Makes me wonder why. We are supposed to be better at understanding and not judging and generally treating others as we would like to be treated.

My opinion only is that if you are divorced in your heart and separated and filed, you can date. Don't ask me to list the reasons. It would be too long to type.

Chris, whether you realize it or not, you are pretty mean in some posts and generally your attitude comes across very negative and picky. Just an observation. Take it or leave it. I'm sure other's read you the same way.

Femine Side, I don't agree that Christians are the "worst." Sure, there are hypocrites and of course, none of us, including Christians, are perfect, but the WORST? First of all, since I am a Christian, your comment is somewhat offensive. Secondly, I don't consider people like Billy Graham or Mother Teresa or JESUS himself as being the "worse." Now people like Osama bin Laden or Sadam Husain or Hitler or others... I'd consider them the "worst." There are also many people who call themselves "Christian" but who really do not know or serve the Lord; thus, they give Chrisitanity a "bad name" (for the record, I do not think Chris is one of those people and don't agree with your assessment of him as "mean," etc).

It sounds actually as if you are prejudice towards Christian by making stereotypical comments about them? The "nastiest" people I know are people who don't know the Lord and don't care about others as a result.

BTW, there is NO SUCH THING as being divorced "in your heart." Try telling the judge and court that. No, she and I are divorced... in my heart, that is. The judge and court would say, "Sorry, you are MARRIED until you have filed and it has been legally decreed that you are divorced." Try claiming it on your income taxes. "Divorced"... well, not on paper, but "in my heart."

I suppose alot of men would like to believe they are divorced "in heart." Heck, that way, they don't have to pay alimony or do anything required by a law that a legal divorce might require them to do. Is that the reasoning behind being "divorced in heart?" That way, you can justify seeing someone and other things. I mean, seriously... you can have a girlfriend and say, "Well, we're divorced in heart." You can decide not to support her and you can kick her out of the house and withold money from her and say, "We're divorced, in heart." You can do many things with that type of reasoning, and many people do. I can't help but wonder what has ever happened to integrity and faithfulness and at least waiting until the divorce is final to date!

[ September 13, 2003, 12:38 AM: Message edited by: LoveMyEx ]

Hi TSC,

Nice to read your reply. I hear ya about "God's instructions. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I truly believe God will bless you for honoring your marriage vows despite everything and for forgiving your husband. I did read the first link you posted but didn't find your "story." I still have to read the second link and hope to find it! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Divorce is brutal. Forgiveness, reconciliation... wow... so hard, but so, so good for our characters, our futures, our hearts. Even for just the one person seeking it. It's been the hardest thing I've ever done but yet also the best because of how it is changing me and making me a better person. I have learned that it is better to suffer but have strong character and maturity (as a result) than to have an "easy" or "happy" life and yet shallow character and immaturity. So while there has been much pain and suffering as a result of seeking reconciliation, I am glad for how God is shaping me as a result of it. I am sure you also have been/are being shaped as a result. I look forward to reading your story!

I hope and pray that God heals all the pains and brokenness in you and your marriage and that He continues to do a good work FAR BEYOND what you can even imagine!! God bless you!

Wow!!!

What a thread. There has been alot of angst within the posts from all sides. I sense strong opinions resounding against other opinions tinged with defiance and perhaps a little justification. Just my take.

I personally think that people should not date until the divorce is final. I think that we live in a society in which laws and customs are flaunted to such a degree that we no longer care about what they represent, it is just what makes us feel good for the moment.

My reasoning is several fold...

First, marriage is an institution in which both parties freely enter, it was NOT real and in effect until the 'piece of paper' was signed. No matter how long you 'lived together or acted as if you were married' in some cases. You WEREN'T married until the paper was signed. So saying that the paper is meaningless does not seem to fit the situation. NOW the MOST important part of marriage is absolutely the combined effect of respect for the marriage. NOT the piece of paper. But, you can't REMARRY until that piece of paper is signed, so to say it is meaningless is ridiculous in my opinion. Even if you are only stating that for the fact that you live in our country.

Secondly, God's rules supercede 'man's law' but that doesn't mean that man's law is nothing. We are to live by it until it deviates from what God wants from us. Man's law says you are married until the paper is signed saying you are not. You can 'ACT' any way you should choose, our WSs have shown that ability in spades. But that doesn't alleviate the REALITY, that you are married still. It just depends on whether it means anything to you. And that is a choice the person must make on his/her own and reap the consequences that are brought about.

Third, perhaps the best reason in my opinion in a general sense, is Just how HEALTHY do you think you are going to be if you are dating before the divorce is even final? How well do you think your choices are going to be made when you are doing something as important as 'choosing another partner' while you still are legally bound to your 'old partner'. In my opinion, people who date while still married are setting themselves up for future heartache or turmoil, Not because of law, God's wrath, etc. But because I really think it is rare (personally nonexistent) that a person can be healed and stable while they are going through a divorce.

And THAT MEANS those 3 or 4 year separations. There is a reason that the person has allowed the separation to linger that long, and in my opinion, that simple fact is what should keep them from dating. Perhaps they are slowly healing... then sever the ties and move on. But the MARRIAGE is a tie that must be cut to be truly healthy in another relationship. I feel that a person who has yet to divorce WILL ABSOLUTELY have issues that will come up later in relationships. And WHY would you want to risk being hurt or HURTING someone else for the fact of a few months? Push it through and heal... date after the divorce is final, when things have been laid to something resembling 'rest'.

Just my opinion... I am not RIGHT... just what I have seen in too many relationships lately. The re-divorce rate is high because hurt parties reenter relationships that are not healthy. They do it with all the right thoughts and desires, but it is the person involved in the relationship that has the hardest time seeing the relationship.

By the pondering over "worst people", I DID/DO mean the they ARE the worst people you encounter. Have never figured out why that is? Also, at work, the people who have voicemails that end with "Have a Blessed Day" are always the nastiest to deal with. It doesn't make sense to me. Another tidbit is, told to me by a waiter, that the very worst tippers are the church crowd.
That is such a broad statement it would have to be false. It may be an opinion but definitely not fact.
Just as a statement such as, “blondes are absolutely the dumbest people” is false.

Now there may be some very bad tippers in the church crowd. There may be some very nasty people who say, “have a blessed day” and there may be some real dumb blondes out there.
Does that mean they are always the worst/dumbest? No.