How many WS have married their OP? - Marriage Builders® Forums

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It is truly amazing (and tragically sad) how familiar all these stories are! I've lurked for a few weeks now, but this is my first new post.

I too got the "I love you but I'm not in love with you" proclamation from my H of 8 years (our son was just 13 months old at the time). He started a relationship with a woman at work, and three years later - one year after divorce is final - they are still together. He told me recently that he intends to propose to her soon; he wanted to give me a "heads up." Isn't he a hell of a guy for thinking of my feelings?!!!

I try to be a grown up about it all, but it makes me very sad still. I'm dealing with it, no major drama lately outside the pending nuptials. But it all still makes me very sad. I'm trying to stop loving him because he has clearly moved on. I didn't want the divorce at all, and it's been harder for me.

According to exH, there was always something missing from our relationship, even before we got married. From the beginning he says now that he felt more friendship than romance, more comfort than passion. He fooled me, I guess. I really believe we could have made it work, or at least he could have tried harder for us and for our son. Now he says he found true love. Whatever.

The worst of it for me now is the sense of betrayal; I feel literally cheated. He took all the passion, love and tenderness I wanted/missed/deserved all the years we were together - the things I was promised and entitled to as his wife - and he gave them all to someone else. I know I was far from perfect, but I loved him totally. I wanted all those things from him, and I wanted to return them. He never let me while we were married, and it bugged me but I thought he just wasn't comfortable showing his emotions or demonstrative with his feelings. We were in MC for months trying to fix this, among other minor problems, when he finally just blurted out he wasn't attracted to me at all, he thought of me as his sister, and that is why our sex life was never very fulfilling. He felt trapped, cornered, DEADENED in this relationship and had to get out.

Deadened. He actually told me he felt deadened inside, trapped and miserable married to me. I still tear up a little at that. It wasn't until later that I found out he wasn't just unhappy at home, he had traded up. The rejection was staggering.

I'm not sure why I'm going on about this tonight. The thought of him getting married again, I suppose. I don't hate him, he's a good man. He's a good father, and even the OW/future stepmother is good to my son and he adores her (that is a whole other kind of sad. He'll come home and talk about how she's so fun and "pretty like Snow White." Ugggg. I just smile and say that's nice). I'm glad they get along and that she's good to him - but it's tough when he asks me as I tuck him into bed when does he get to see "Miss Julia" again.

If I'm totally honest, I'd have to say that from what I can tell exH is happier now than I've ever seen him. Certainly less tense and withdrawn than when we were together. We've fallen into a business partner/co-parenting plan that seems to work for everyone. Everyone is happy, except me.

I will be, I'm sure. I've tentatively started to date again, but my heart isn't really in it yet. I keep busy with work, my son and other activities, too. I'll survive this too. Just for tonight though, divorce SUCKS.

As far as the something missing from your relationship claim and the more friendship than romance claim, attribute it to the "fog". They work so hard at re-writing history to justify their actions to alleviate their guilt. My XW did admit to truly loving me before, so statements to the contrary are pure fog.

As far as marrying the OP...

My WS mother married the OP who became my step-father. The greener grass soon was found to be growing on top of a sewer. It was a dead marriage for umpteen years after about the first year; a marriage of convenience. My mother was miserable. My dad never had a clue. He thought she was happy. They put on a good show when their X is around.

I guess that was lucky for me in the end, twisted though it may be. My WS XW married the OM. I knew exactly what to do. Getting custody of my daughter was number one. I have primary custody and work to keep things 50/50 with my XW. At least I haven't been robbed of that. During the few times I see my XW each year it looks like she's going out of her way to LOOK happy. I don't think she is. I also have some interesting information from the OM's XW. They never had sex during their entire 4 year marriage, not even on their wedding night. His XW says he's weird. I guess so. In the end, I don't think my XW is happy, but hey, she chose that course.

My brother's XW cheated on him too. The OM lasted about 3 months living with her before it fell apart. My brother recently bumped into him at a bar and they talked things out. The guy said he was sorry and that my brother was right about everything he told the guy about her. My brother bought him a beer. I'm happy that my brother has closure with that.

My heart was ripped out, but it has now scared over for the most part. I do get angry/emotional at times. I wouldn't wish this on my worst enemy.

The upside is that I've had more time to pursue a new career that I love and have had time to find out incredible things about myself. I do wish that finding a new mate will come sooner than later, but I guess that will take care of itself when I've got my act together.

So remember, the grass is greener on top of a sewer and a marriage built on quicksand will eventually crumble when weight is put on it. Fantasyland will soon close.

My ex WH married the OW five months after our divorce. My ex WH had told me prior to his big wedding day that their divorce attorney (they used the same one and I hope they got a package deal) had advised them to wait at least a year before getting married. I wonder why my ex went against the advise of his own attorney, but in the end it just proves to me that he is deep in the fog and has lost all common sense.

I put this on the infidelity forum almost 4 years ago for everyone. It was helpful to me. Hope this helps.

These are the exerpts from the book Private Lies by Frank Pittman.. Chapt. 13..
THE DEFECTS OF ROMANTIC 2ND MARRIAGES..
1) The intervention of Reality: Divorce in these marriages tends to take place very early in the marriage. During th affair, the infidel and perhaps the affairee are in a state of intensely stimulating unreality. The second marriage itself seems to be a swithc that throws the lights on and illuminates the mess that has accumulated. It is as if the romance had seemed real, while the divorce didnt. Only after the remarriage did the divorce become real enough for the lovers to see that it was all a horrible mistake. The affairs that become marriages typically were so intense they were never questioned at all. During the divorce, reality never set in sufficiently to let the romance be evaluated and questioned. The romance was so romantic on one ever got around to asking if it was sane.
2) Guilt.. People who have wrecked a family have inflicted much pain, and they have a lot they could feel guilty about. As reality sets in, they see many things they were overlooking. They may have felt no guilt during the affair and divorce, and the guilt they feel after the romantic marriage may come as a suprise to both of them. It is generally assumed that people who dont permit themselves to be happy must be feeling guilty about somethingm and are unhappy as a way of punishing themselves for their misdeeds. One aspect of guilt is the rluctance to enjoy ones ill-gotten gains. Another aspect of guilt is the urge to return to the scene of the crime and in some way make amends. As a romantic newlywed resists the joys of the ex-mate who was deserted so blitheyly, the new mate can feel disoriented and betrayed.

3) Disparity of sacrifice... Divorces are expensive luxuries. Whatever the financial cost, the emotional cost is far greater. Anyone after losing that much, will be drained, exhausted and depressed. It is particularly difficult when the exhausted survivor of a debilitating divorce marries the triumphant winner of the struggle. If the romantic partner is marrying for the first time, and especially if the courtship has been treacherous and insecure, the new mate will be ecstatic. A new couple may feel a disparity in what had to be sacrificed to bring them together. The partner who has never been divorced may have difficulty understanding the complexity of emotions toward the previous family.

4) Expectations.. Then there is the feeling that anything that cost this much emotionally had damn well better be worth it. The greater the sacrifices, the greater the expectations from the new marriage. Now that the promised land has been reached, it should flow with milk and honey. But instead, the new couple are just 2 tired warriors with no fight left in them. Whatever these people were expecting, the best they are likey to find now is the ordinariness of real life, the dubious peace between glorious battles. The more people enjoy the battles involved in wrecking and escaping marriages, the less they are likely to enjoy the business as usual of the new marriage that was the destination of it all.

5) General Distrust of Marriage.. Of course, anyone who has been unhappily married is likely to develop a strong distrust of the institution of marriage. People whose marriages fell apart during affairs are likey to end up distrusting marriages rather than distrusting affaris. People who distrust marriage have a vey hard time being in one.
6) Distrust of affairee..It might seem appropriate for someone to go out with them, or even to marry them, but not quite appropriate for someone to have an affair with them. Affairs are considered dishonerable acts, and peope who feel guilty for having affairs believe that they are dishonorable and their partner must be dishonorable too.
7) Divided Loyalties..During the affair tnd the divorce, the romantic couple isolate themselves. It is not only the betrayed spouses who are erased from awareness, but also the children, the families, friends, anyone who attempts to pull the romantic couple from the quicksand of their affair. But after the remarriage, there may be a longing to reestablish connections with families and friends and this may be more difficult than expected. Each close relationship and some that were amazingly casual may have to be renegotiated in view of the hurt caused to others.
8) The nature of infidels.... People who get themselves into affairs have some specific characteristics that must influence the course of their subsequent marriages. Each kind of infidel is different. Most of those who end up marrying an affair partner are romatics who drift hypnotically through this romantic high without taking much responsibility. Romantic remarriage seldom works, not only because of th unrealistic nature of romance, but also because of the reality-avoiding nature of romantics.
9)The nature of affairees.... Affairees want whatever they want from a relationship, jsut as everyone else does, but what makes them unusual is that they seek their goals among the married rather than the single. They choose partners who are not in position to marry them, and who are engaging in the relationship at great risk. People like this are clearly angry with marriage, and perhaps with the opposite sex. They believe marriage doesnt work, and they demonstrate that by breaking up another marriage as they find a partner for themselves.
10) Romance.. People who believe in the chemistry of romance dont bother to learn much about the physics of relationships. When the romance begins to fade, romantics know little about how to solve those problems that they have relied on romance to transcend. It is painful to watch a romantic relationship dissolve. It happens so suddenly, and so totally. These people have alredy demonstrated that they would rather get divorced than learn physics, so it is far easier for them to follow the same pattern.
11) Scapegoating of cuckolds... During the affair and divorce, the romantic couple conspired to convince each other that the defective marriage was the fault of the cuckold. To acknowledge otherwise, now that remarriage has taken place, seems a betrayal of the rescue fantasies that fed the romance.
12) Unshared history... Even if the new marriage survives all of these obstacles, there is one further characteristic of all second marriages: The absence of a shared history that brings familiarity torelationships that began earlier in life. If a romantic marriage has wrecked a previous marriage or two, the history of the relationship is painful to both partners, and possibly somewhat embarrasing to others. The new partners keep thinking about it and justifying it, but it is hard to talk about lightly, in the familiar, safe manner of people who can tell their old war stories without guilt. However intense their commitment, people who share a guilty past arent totally rpoud of their new marriage.

Ok.... i did it.. hope it helps everyone!!

I wanted to add a little more to the above post. In the book it talks about statistics of marriages that take place as the result of an affair. The book sites that less than 5 percent of these marriages work out. The above is all the reasons why they do not work out.

For anyone that remembered me from back in the day my old screen name was Mickey65. I was a regular poster when I went through my husbands first affair. The book surviving an affair was extremely valuable to me. It did help me save my marriage. If my husband would have quit having affairs after our first recovery we would still be staying married today.

Hi,
My ex married his the OW. I got the exact same thing from him. He never "really" loved me. Funny but I distinctly remember him chasing me down one night when I had had it with him telling me I was the best thing that had ever happened to him. That among about a millon other things, cards, letters declaring his love until he had to justify his actions. I had initially moved away after the divorce but then decided to move back home where "they" were. I missed my life. Soon after I returned I began hearing things about them. It seemed that whenever I went out someone made it a point to come up and tell me how he was so unfaithful to her and how she just puts up with it. Funny that he wasn't such a sleeze bag when we were together. As a matter of fact, he broke out in hives when he started cheating on me with her. I don't mean just one person telling me this. Anyone that I see that knows we use to be married makes it a point to tell me this. Even when they didn't know us together. She left her 6 year old son and husband to be with my ex. I think they stay together now because they feel that that is what they deserve. I don't know. Maybe they are ok with their arrangment. I was even the supervisor at work of their next-door-neighbor and she didn't know that I was his ex wife. She use to say things about them without ever knowing who I was. I never told her. If they are happy ... that's for them. But not for me. I know that I could/would never choose to live like that for any reason. I want more from love.

My x married her om 10 months after our divorce(on our son's birthday). They divorced 16 months later as he went back to his x who he had left for my w. They were together a little over 3 yrs.

My ex-H has not married the OW. They have been engaged since Feb 14, 2002, over 2 years now.

My secret hopes are that they will marry. I feel it's fitting and maybe a bit of poetic justice. Pre-separation and during the affair, my then H told me he felt like he was in jail. So I feel if they marry he will trade jail for prison, hopefully a life sentence.

She, the OW, started cheating on my ex-H, unbeknownst to him, the first year they moved in together. I was VERY surprised to learn this, because I really thought she loved him. <sigh>

Jo

[ February 27, 2004, 01:38 PM: Message edited by: Resilient ]

Very interesting topic...I could have completely expected these responses.

My divorce papers were signed by judge on Dec. 26 of last year and my xh eloped with OW2 (there were two OW)within 2 weeks.

I too got the "ILYBNILWY" speech. Justification after justification. One day I checked off in the book "Love Must Be Tough" by Dobson each "justification" my x gave me that Dobson cites as "classic excuses" in the book. I had almost been given all of them. I wish somebody could post them here..real eye openers.

Anyway...I think my xh would have played the field alot more. Originally he was sleeping with two OW...First one, the one he claims is his "soul mate", dumped him. She lived in my same hometown back in TN. We moved to GA and I guess he couldn't be faithful to either me or to OW1 so he started sleeping around with OW2...

Anyway, OW1 dumps him. We have separated by this time...damage was far done by then. He calls me crying and crying. I ask him how he feels. He says he's sorry for all he put me and his son through. But that he's done too much damage and that he can't take it back or fix things (fog and justifications to keep screwing around)...I say that it is his decisions and if he wants to make excuses then that's fine...

Hear within a week or so that OW2, Family Values, has moved in with him. What a lovely woman. Picking up the pieces for her lover. Dumped by his mistress and wife divorcing him. Isn't that an attractive kind of man? Well, Jethro isn't the kinda guy to really be faithful so he just shacked up with her and her 3yo outta wedlock son. Despite wording of agreement, they shacked up.

After about six months of shacking up, FV decides that it's time to up the ante...he was living with the cow and getting the milk for free...so to speak...so conveniently, she FOR THE SECOND TIME, gets pregnant and is unmarried...now he's really stuck...

I suspected the day ironically our papers were signed in the presence of our attorneys that she was preggers...he cried when the court reporter read the decree before us. Really cried. I knew it deep down. Asked him in about september and still more lies..They completely denied she was pregnant until the week the judge signed the papers...CAN WE SAY COMPLETE FOGGY LIARS? She was beginning her last trimester at this point.

So I guess they have some sort of fallout last fall as I get the "I am leaving Jethro" phone call I knew would come...she denied then being preggers or even living with him..called me at 11 pm that night at my home. Probably uped the ante then and said "either you make a somewhat honest woman of me or I am outta here".

Well anyhow...they eloped around New Years.

Had their "shotgun wedding dinner reception" last weekend and she's over eight mos. pregnant. THIRD wedding reception for Jethro. FIRST for FV, the pregnancy plotter.

As I read the information above it all struck home with me...his new wife may feel she has won something but he feels trapped as he didn't want to marry or to have another child...Last year, my xh jokingly said that all he really wanted was a "few years to fool around and get this stuff out of his system and he'd be back home again...that if even i didn't want him back, he wouldn't think of remarrying until after age 40." Ha.

Reality is the above stats are on the money.

I am recipient a few days ago of a forwarded email...In the about fifteen or so addresses the email is sent to are the following: my email address, Family Values the new wife, his parents, and OW1, monkeyho.

My xh has been remarried not even 2 whole months yet and he's again talking to his former lover and proported "soulmate" in TN.

It's really sad but I am glad I am outta this.

They either learn their lesson and change and admit to themselves what they did, how it was wrong, or they are doomed to keep repeating it over and over and over. Sounds like the xWS above haven't quite gotten that concept yet.

I'm feeling better about things today.

You know, part of me wants this new marriage to work for him. Maybe, although I love him alot, we just weren't a good fit for each other. While we were always good friends and enjoyed each other's company, he's right when he says the SF part of the relationship was always lacking for both of us. I was more than willing to make myself content with what we had (we had sex maybe once a month or less - he NEVER initiated unless he had a couple drinks). When he proposed, I assumed he was okay with the status quo too.

He went about ending things in a really destructive and painful way but I still want him to be happy, and OW seems to make him happy (I'm gritting my teeth as I write that part). I still believe we could have made things work, but if not than I really don't want my son exposed to an endless parade of new girlfriends. And maybe (hopefully soon) I'll find someone that is a better fit for me too.

Of course the other -immature- part of me hopes it crashes and burns (hee hee hee)...

Thanks for all the replies and advice. In a way I feel rejected all over again by exH marrying again so soon (separated 2.5 years ago, divorce final last year) but in another way it is also closes the chapter on the marriage. He is not ever coming back.

Hard to say if everyone is the same. I keep hearing about these affairs that become marriages that fail, but the only affair I know of that became a marriage, was between some friends of mine.

We'll call them Joe and Jill. They met about 20 years ago, while working on a project together. He was married, she was single. They realized they were falling for each other. She told him she wasn't going to sit around waiting for a married man to have time for her.

Joe got out of his marriage (it was pretty darned bad, all their friends could see it, and their son was not small anymore), and rang up Jill. They started dating, and when he took a job abroad, she followed him. They were married 14 years ago, and have been very happy, now retired with a farm.

I think he just made the mistake of being married to the wrong person to begin with. But of course, not all situations are the same.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I think he just made the mistake of being married to the wrong person to begin with.<hr /></blockquote>These words, as well as previous posts by this person, sound like the justifications of an OW.

My X announced his engagement to my kids last month on his birthday..It was like..

"Happy birthday to me..guess what?

he told the kids (my kids are older ages 16-23) as they had their coats on and were about to walk out the door.

Nice..just like a hit and run.

He said he wanted to set up a time when they can meet her. MIL said kids should as OW REALLY loves your dad..like I didnt.

Daughter (19) didnt say anything except to MIL that "OW loves my dad sooooooo much that she would break up his family and ruin all our lives. Then daughter left hysterically and hasnt spoke to her dad since. Goes out when she knows he is stopping by, doesnt answer her phone etc..

Other 3 say that they will not meet her, or go to any function where she is.

Only youngest son will see/talk to his dad and that is when she is not there. None of the 4 have ever seen her yet.

DDay was 10/00 and for 2 years X says that he broke things off when I discovered affair. He beat me, lied to me and tortured me with this affair, and in fact it was still going on. I knew this and he hated the fact that I knew every single time he lied to me.

when he left he told kids it was not for other woman, that it was my fault.

It was my fault that I would not let his abuse continue.

Within a couple of weeks he was living with OW full time, and now finally 1 year later he admits it to kids.

Last christmas (02) he called about something and I could tell he was drunk. I asked him where he was and he said out finishing up his Christmas shopping. I said "Great..Christmas shopping out drunk, and by yourself driving?"

so he says.. well, kids want nothing to do with me, you hate me, mom only tolerates me, and after what happened last night..OW and I are probably done for good

So already there is trouble in paradise, I know he is still alternating between drinking and oxycontins, so that is her problem now. I know their marriage wont last, it cant built on the foundation of every kind of sin there is. OW started this affair with my X when she had only been married for 6 months. But that is their problem.

Ow has a 6 year old daughter and I pray for her safety as my x likes to DUI. My children and I all escaped serious harm. I believe by God's hand of protection.

X has not announced date that I know of. I think he is waiting for kids to "come around" LOL. at that rate she will never get remarried.

BTW..I think reason to push to get married is for her families acceptance. She comes from strong Christian family. Her parents are youth group leaders, she went to Christian school, and now she is living with this man who is technically still married to a Christian woman for 26 years with 4 children. Gotta make something look good.

statistics still prove in is 5-10% of these affairs end in marriage, and their chances of survivng are less than the first marriage.

Somewhere I read that x and I have a better chance of re-marrying then his marriage to HER has. Don't think I want something used back!

X didn't even tell kids he was getting married. It came up in a phone call that he had married HER. Divorce final Nov 19, married Dec 9th as far as anyone can tell. Kids had never meet her. He did not bring HER with for christmas that year, did not bring her with when OD had heart surgery, didn't even call her after the surgery, OD got mad and wanted to meet this women and so her and siblings drove to dad's for Easter last year, did not bring HER with for OD graduation. Not proud of HER? Or was afraid of fallout?

YD went there for 30 days this summer, we meet for pickup, HER is with them x doesn't introduce us, I did not introduce myself, wasn't going to make it simple for him. X came to see kids for christmas this year again by himself, brings YD back and HER is with them, does not bring HER out to my house to drop daughter off, YD spent night at hotel with them, x brings YD home but no HER. However my phone did ring and someone (HER) say hi and hung up. Again afraid of what the fall out might be!!! X wanted out of marriage so badly signed papers quickly, was uncontested, I got what I asked for and am doing ok for myself and kids, Never had a house before and signed for one in October, bought myself a used truck for Christmas, so have two cars setting in driveway still. Am sure he didn't want her to see this, don't know if she knows amount of alimony or not, or child support, not my problem!!

OD off and eloped so didn't have to meet for the marriage thing, but will be grandparents in September.

They are coming to visit the third week of March, will not go out of my way to meet HER, have been seeing an old friend that x was best man for at his wedding, that would like to see x, am not sure if that would be good or not, could be interesting though as I really haven't had any one in my life since x. Don't know if I want to set that up or not!

Anyways, I guess I will always wonder if he thinks it was worth leaving a loving wife and family for HER. Don't really care though, just wonder, I know where it is I am at in life and I am ok, I tried to save my marriage and did the best that I could when I was married. Not sure that he can say that!

Dawn <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Nellie1:
<hr /></blockquote>These words, as well as previous posts by this person, sound like the justifications of an OW. [/QB][/QUOTE]

Nope, Nellie, just a different opinion. My husband was a tosser, but I think we spend too much time worrying about how his relationships will fail or succeed. Not enough time thinking about how to make our own lives beautiful. We have to let them go. My father cheated on my mother; she left him, remarried and is happy. My friends' relationship worked out.
Sometimes our preconceptions are wrong. Sometimes we have to ignore statistics and look at human hearts and intentions.
If I hear WS spouting what I feel is nonsense, I'll voice my contrary opinion to that, too! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

MY STBX's client who was married and a good deal older hired an assistant someone that my STBX went to high school with. 4 years after hiring her, client was providing her with a car, a condo, etc paid for by his corporation. I told STBX that there was something more going on there than typical corporate amenities, but he didn't believe there was. 2 years later, client announced that he was divorcing his wife of many years (his youngest child was 13, oldest out of college already) and marrying his young assistant. They have now been married about 18 yrs and have adopted children as well as children of their own. It was like a fairy tale situation for the young assistant that went to high school with my stbx as client's corporation provides them with a lavish home, vacations, nannies, and lifestyle.

That is the only situation that I am aware of when an affair turned into a marriage.

There are 2 couples that we know that have had affairs tear them apart that later reconciled successfully. Though in one case, the couple was older (over 50) and they reconciled due to the poor financial situation that they were in prior to the affair.

Stats show that a's and M's that happen after A's aren't very good at all.

I sure hope that exec's xw was taken care of.

And their kids as well.

What seems to be the factors that fuel M's after A's is the involvement of WS's family and income level as I have noticed.

Of the very very few that I am aware of, those are common and also were present in my sitch as well.

Doc I know well had A with his scrub tech. W found out and D'd him. He marries younger scrub tech. She spends, spends spends. His first d happened about 5-6 years ago. Has one child wit scrub tech. He becomes depressed and unhappy and begins drinking. Cheats on scrub tech. Scrub tech divorces him but after only a few years of marriage (maybe 2), she divorces him but KEEPS his name...Now he's getting remarried again to another younger woman.

His mom supported him in being "there" for her cheating, lying, drinking son. He had the disposable income to live the "double secret life".

When a foggy foggy person gets a thumbs-up from their parent, and has income to support the lies even further, I believe it's a recipe for disaster.

My college bf's dad cheated on his mom. Again, owned company, had income to dispose on both family and OW. His W left him, took my bf and his bro and sister and moved out of family home. She filed for D. Basically did an mid nineteen eighties plan B. H's secretary (much younger again) moved in with the dad into family home. Talk of marrying the secretary. But he dumps her and goes back to his W after 2 years away. Very very sticky and w was on depression meds for years after that.

Another factor is the ego of the WS. That seems to be the third factor here to consider. Alot of these people seem to validate themselves through the conquest of another person...albiet younger or attractive or both.

I married the OM six years ago. I was the OW. His ex and my ex are now both re-married. For us I could not imagine my being still married to my ex. It's been so many years now it's hard to even remember a lot of things. I think it's rare for it to happen and even more rare for it to be better the second time around but it does happen.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Bonnie Sept wrote:
I married the OM six years ago. I was the OW. His ex and my ex are now both re-married. For us I could not imagine my being still married to my ex. It's been so many years now it's hard to even remember a lot of things. I think it's rare for it to happen and even more rare for it to be better the second time around but it does happen.<hr /></blockquote>Can I ask a couple questions of you, Bonnie?

How long were you with your first husband? When you said it's hard for you to even remember a lot of things from your marriage to him, it struck a chord with me. Most of us BS are excerting so much energy trying to forget our ex's (WS). Seems ironic.

I wish I could just forget entirely. I keep telling myself those 21 years were meaningless, a sham. But of course, unwelcome memories from time to time find their way back.

Lv,
Jo

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by BonnieSept:
 I married the OM six years ago. I was the OW. His ex and my ex are now both re-married. For us I could not imagine my being still married to my ex. It's been so many years now it's hard to even remember a lot of things. I think it's rare for it to happen and even more rare for it to be better the second time around but it does happen. <hr /></blockquote>I was a BS first before I was the WS. Was with my ex-W for 10 years. Have been w/ OW for 3 years now - she had been married for 6 years. Neither of us had any children. I also have a hard time remembering lots of the details of life w/ my ex-w.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by daoren:
I was a BS first before I was the WS. Was with my ex-W for 10 years. Have been w/ OW for 3 years now - she had been married for 6 years. Neither of us had any children. I also have a hard time remembering lots of the details of life w/ my ex-w. <hr /></blockquote>Well this certainly sucks. Just another great aspect of being a BS - we fight to forget while the WS struggles with remembering anything. Ughhh ...

Please don't take personal offense Daoren. Just me trying to learn, although sometimes it does still hurt.

Jo

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Resilient:
Well this certainly sucks. Just another great aspect of being a BS - we fight to forget while the WS struggles with remembering anything. Ughhh ...

Please don't take personal offense Daoren. Just me trying to learn, although sometimes it does still hurt.

Jo [/QB]<hr /></blockquote>No offense taken. I've been on both sides of that fence and neither side is fun. I was pretty pissed off about being the BS because my ex-w would always say "It's always the guy that cheats." <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> After her A, we did just about everything wrong, and by the time I found myself in my A about 4 years later, I didn't give a hairy rat's behind. FWIW, I would have ended up getting a divorce even without the A.

I know what you mean about trying to forget - I can still remember all of the things my ex-W wrote to her OM in her emails... the things they wanted to do to each other, etc. blech. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

[ March 03, 2004, 02:06 PM: Message edited by: daoren ]

Hey Carlajo, I have a question for you...

In you r first post onthis topic, you hit on something very close to my heart at the moment. That is the other person being around your kids. My WW brings her boyfriend around my kids all the time, we are not even divorced yet. Last night I stopped into the local pizza joint, as I didn't feel like cooking for myself, and who do you suppose is there? Yeah, my WW and the OM...with MY KIDS!!! He has a 7 yo daughter that my kids really like, and they tell me how nice Tom is to them. He even bought them christmans presents that my WW had the total lack of class to bring to my house. How do you handle this? How can you NOT fly into a rage when you know that your kids are around this other person.

Any tips on dealing with this would help. Right now we share the kids 50/50, but we are in a custody battle for full custody. The courts and the law say it doesn;t matter that she is doing this... they trust her judgement. I hate this, I wouldn't mind divorcing her if it weren't for the kids... I hate what this is doing to them.

What can I do... both for them and for me to deal with the OM?

I,like Bonnie married the OM. We've been officially 'together" since my divorce in 2001 and married last July. Both his ex and my ex are remarried also.

I spent a good portion of my time in the beginning obsessing about the past....harboring regret and anger ...comparing the two relationships. I've finally learned to let go of the past and focus on having a healthy marriage, DESPITE it's unhealthy, immoral beginnings. From reading this forum, I know many out there don't believe that's possible, but in some cases affair marriages do work out. Neither my ex nor myself can imagine not being with our respective spouses now.

Bleeeech.

I am sorry but this is yuck.

"I've finally learned to let go of the past and focus on having a healthy marriage, DESPITE it's unhealthy, immoral beginnings. From reading this forum, I know many out there don't believe that's possible, but in some cases affair marriages do work out. Neither my ex nor myself can imagine not being with our respective spouses now."

Jeez. Rationalizations. I like the part about it being UNHEALTHY AND IMMORAL in the beginning...But Presto! FORGET ABOUT WHAT YOU DID AND NOW IT'S A HEALTHY MARRIAGE! I am sure your former spouses would say otherwise. I am wondering why you're here surfing on the d/d column if it's so darn happy .

Affair marriages can work out...but their LIFESPAN IS SHORT.

LIke today...my xh sent me some emails the other day about politics..I am officer in large area group with political ties. He sends email (a forward)and I send him an email back thanking him and with a nice quote from a well-known columnist. We don't have much contact...

Buttttt.

I get ironically at time when xh is out with my son, an email supposedly from him asking "why did you send this?"...then immediately five minutes later I get the same email forwarded to me from the email addy of his new OWW...Da Wistress.

If life's so wonderful and they're sooooo in looooove, then WHY IS SHE HIJACKING HIS EMAILS AND WRITING TO ME? Easy. You always look over your shoulders when you are a cheater. If they could do it to the person they promised Before GOD to love, honor, respect, and cherish, then they'd do it to the OP/new spouse.

Matter of time my dear. Matter of time. And if you do manage staying together, one day YOU WILL FACE YOUR CREATOR ABOUT THIS LITTLE MATTER.

Wish I could just pat you on the back and say "way to go adulterers"...BUT I CAN'T. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

From Peachy:

"Bleeeech.

I am sorry but this is yuck.

"I've finally learned to let go of the past and focus on having a healthy marriage, DESPITE it's unhealthy, immoral beginnings. From reading this forum, I know many out there don't believe that's possible, but in some cases affair marriages do work out. Neither my ex nor myself can imagine not being with our respective spouses now."

Jeez. Rationalizations. I like the part about it being UNHEALTHY AND IMMORAL in the beginning...But Presto! FORGET ABOUT WHAT YOU DID AND NOW IT'S A HEALTHY MARRIAGE! I am sure your former spouses would say otherwise. I am wondering why you're here surfing on the d/d column if it's so darn happy .

Affair marriages can work out...but their LIFESPAN IS SHORT."

Not at all surprised by Peachy's response as I follow her story from time to time. The fact is a person who winds up marrying their affair partner will likely always be scoffed at by a person who's been through betrayal. If I didn't acknowledge that an affair was immoral, I'd still be considered 'foggy', <or much worse> and if I do concede a marriage based on an affair had an immoral start but can still work, I'm guilty of rationalizing.

I've been an avid marriage builder follower for a couple years, <wished I'd found it earlier> and will probably continue to peruse it for years to come. As I said I'm focusing on having a healthy marriage and the principles here can be applied to ANY marriage ....even the "doomed second marriages" as seen by those severely burned like Peachy.

As for affair marriage lifespans being short....stats will probably confirm that. Stats for first time marriages are also pretty pathetic. Time will tell.

A direct quote:

"I'm NOT having an affair!! I'm in love with (OM)!!! WHAT PART OF THAT DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND???"

She married the non-OM 5 months after our divorce. To this day she still denies she had an affair. I guess, since infidelity wasn't involved, this marriage has a better chance, huh?

[ March 03, 2004, 07:15 PM: Message edited by: worthatry ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Who's Hurting Now:
I've been an avid marriage builder follower for a couple years, <wished I'd found it earlier> and will probably continue to peruse it for years to come.<hr /></blockquote>WHN: me too. I've applied many of the MB concepts to my current marriage in the hopes of not making the same mistakes I made with the first. Yeah. I screwed up with my first marriage. Hopefully I can learn someting from my past mistakes.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Who's Hurting Now wrote:
I've finally learned to let go of the past and focus on having a healthy marriage, DESPITE it's unhealthy, immoral beginnings. <hr /></blockquote>WHN,

Can you tell me how you're accomplishing the above. How are you reconciling the past and your part in the demise of your previous marriage, yet able to focus on building a healthy new marriage? Have you made mends with your ex? Have you two talked and do you feel any degree of remorse and expressed that remorse to your former spouse?

I'm basing these questions on what I would need to do in order to find some peace within myself if I were (in theory) in your shoes.

Jo

[ March 03, 2004, 07:23 PM: Message edited by: Resilient ]

Want My Wife Back:

I definitely feel your pain over seeing your W's new boyfriend with your kids. That sucks. And it sucks that you can't do anything to stop it. I insisted on a no overnight guest clause in our final settlement papers, OW and exH don't live together, but outside that you can't do much of anything legally to stop him being around your kids. I'm really sorry.

I was lucky(?) that my exH waited awhile before bringing her around our son. We were separated just a few months (well before I finally filed) when my son came home one Saturday from being with his dad talking about "daddy's friend." I blew up at that, and told then-H that it was too soon for son, and too painful for me to have this woman who destroyed my marriage introduced to my son. At that time I still had hope for the marriage, and him dating - especially her - felt like a punch in the stomach. I felt like they were all off playing family, going to the zoo and playing in the park, just as though I never even existed! Just as though it didn't matter that I was grieving and still trying everything possible to salvage my family.

Even though he didn't legally have to, exH had the decency to agree and I don't believe OW was included in any activities until just the last few months, well after divorce was final. (EA started 6/01, we separated 3/02, divorce final 5/03).

You asked how I handle it. Sometimes I handle it very well - remain supportive and enthusiastic when my 4 year old talks about doing things with her, or even when we read a story about Snow White and he tells me that "Miss Julia" is pretty like the Princess Snow White. Uggggg. I have to admit I get pissy with exH whenever her name is mentioned or the subject comes up, but never in front of son. I want very much for my son to have the adults in his life get along, and I want to spare him the tension of hostility among us as he grows up. As it looks like she's going to be around for awhile, I try to put aside my hurt and anger because I think it is easier for him.

But I still hate her. I'm glad she is good to my child, but I wish she didn't exist. As much as I didn't want the divorce, still love my exH (though I'm working on this), I think I'd handle a new girlfriend better than this woman who carried on at least an EA with H prior to our separation (he denies PA until he moved out). I blame exH far more, but she didn't help the situation at all. So far I have resisted the urge to confront her, cuss her out, or otherwise acknowledge her presence. If they really marry, I suppose I'll have to be in the same room with her at some point (something I've been spared up to this point), and then I'll be civil because that is the grown up thing to do and because of my son.

I'm grateful I've so far avoided the scene of exH, OW and son eating pizza like some Kodak commercial!!! I'm sooo sorry that happened to you. My ex getting married so soon just seems like a slap in the face to me, another very clear signal that the marriage didn't mean to him what it meant to me. Frankly, I don't need another reminder.

My H moved out of our house and immediately into the OW's. Supposedly he married her less than a year after the divorce was final, but interestingly his W-2 over a year later still listed his marital status as single.

My kids have said that he spends a lot of his time sitting in front of the computer, playing solitaire. The OW sends emails to me, pretending to be him, but does a really crummy job if she is trying to imitate his writing style. She limits the amount of time my H is allowed to spend with his children, and I have seen him purposely avoid calling her to say he would be late when he wanted to do something kid-related, so she couldn't complain in advance. She has managed to antagonize all of our younger kids, casting aspertions on my almost adult son's masculinity, stomping off in anger when my little, language-disabled child inadvertently says something that upsets her - it is interesting that she has managed to shoot herself in the foot with respect to my children by acting in ways that I could never have even predicted. Our two older children have nothing whatsoever to do with their father; one has not even spoken to him in 5 years.

If my H and the OW's relationship is a healthy one, I'd hate to see an unhealthy one.

Nelly1:

That is horrible! What a wretched awful woman. Your poor kids... I can't imagine being so insecure that I'd want to come between my husband and his children. I'm glad for your kids that they have at least one stable, mature parent. Shame on her for being so awful, and shame on your exH for allowing that sort of behavior.

My son (24) just told me tonite that, a few weeks ago when X told son he was engaged and wanted OW to meet all his children, that son would like her....

Son said "I dont ever want to meet her and dont ever ask again for me to meet her. If you want to continue having any kind of contact with me you will respect my wishes"

I had such mixed emotions about it. It is all still too sad. X just threw away a great family, 4 great kids, for what? I dont know, Im still too dumbfounded. Pizza on Sunday for 45 minutes isnt what our family was about. X cant be happy with this life. It is so against all he and I worked to instill in our children,but then that was all an illusion too. I was the classic enabler..hiding his drug use from them. Hiding all the abuse and he still shows absolutely no remorse for anything he ever did, all the abuse and lies.

Fortunately I am past that. My life from here on out is mine to make it the best it can be. And I have 4 great kids backing me up, cheering me through school, laughing with me at the dinner table, and, yes, even having good times with the new man in my life <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Smiles,
Dawn

Wow. I guess I am more surprised than I should be at how many WS completely disregard their children's feelings about divorce and a quick remarriage. Sunrise, I'm glad that you have moved on to a new relationship. You certainly deserve better than your ex.

And I am surprised at how many WS actually marry the OP. Whether the marriage survives or not, the number of affair marriages is higher than I expected.

Thanks for all the replies. I don't feel so alone, and actually feel a little relieved that my ex isn't the biggest butt-hole out there.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by worthatry:
A direct quote:

"I'm NOT having an affair!! I'm in love with (OM)!!! WHAT PART OF THAT DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND???"<hr /></blockquote>Please allow me to translate:

"I'm NOT having an affair!!" = "This is not FAKE!!"

"I'm in love with (OM)!!!" = "This is REAL!!!"

"WHAT PART OF THAT DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND???" = "PLEASE STOP MAKING ME JUSTIFY MYSELF AND MY WRONG DOING"

Dupe post. Sorry.

[ March 03, 2004, 11:08 PM: Message edited by: Resilient ]

Carlajo-

My kids are 4 and 2, my 2 yo doesn't really have a sense of whats going on... he is the one that tells me Tom is nice. My 4 yo cries every time he has to go to my WW's apartment, then when there... he cries and tells me he wants to come home with me everytime I call to say goodnight to him. It rips me apart to have this happening to them. I con't understand why my WW has to do this... why is she so blind to what this is doing to the kids?

She has been bringing them around this guy since day one, she lies to me about it when I confront her about it and simply doesn't acknowledge that this is at all bad for the kids. She gets combative whenever I ask her to stop doing this. I don't know what to do about it... my attorney says that until the heraring (which is scheduled for sometime in April) there isn't anything I can do. It really bothers me... like you said... that they go about playing "family" as if I didn't even exist.

I admit that I married the OW after divorcing my EX of 16 years of marriage. First off, I will say I wasn't happy with my EX. But in retrospect, I realize that what I did was very selfish and I didn't have the right to stray. I should have 1. tried to work things out. 2. If that didn't work then I could have divorced her.

One issue that continues to surface is that I realize that my new wife and I don't really trust each other. I had that with my EX and I will tell anyone, that is priceless. The new wife is very insecure. She says she just misses me so much when I'm at work, but I'm slowly realizing that she doesn't trust me when I'm away from her. We love each other, but I'm starting to get scared that I will resent her later on. About a year ago the OWtold me I could see my sons anytime I want (which I do). But now she starting to say things which indicate that she may be changing her mind.

The other is that although we divorced about a year and a half ago, I still have tremendous guilt about the divorce(mostly my relationship with my sons). I know it was very hard on them and I really don't think we'll ever be as close as we were. Both of them are cold with me, but my youngest does open up more when we get to spend time alone together. I think some of it has to do with the ex saying negative things about me and my wife. I try to overlook a lot of things when I knew that I put myself in this situation.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that affairs aren't fair to anyone and I'm not sure many relationships after the affair work out for the long term. I'm hoping mine does, but only time and some adjustments by each of us will tell.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Guilt Is My Name wrote:
One issue that continues to surface is that I realize that my new wife and I don't really trust each other. I had that with my EX and I will tell anyone, that is priceless. The new wife is very insecure. She says she just misses me so much when I'm at work, but I'm slowly realizing that she doesn't trust me when I'm away from her. We love each other, but I'm starting to get scared that I will resent her later on. About a year ago the OWtold me I could see my sons anytime I want (which I do). But now she starting to say things which indicate that she may be changing her mind.<hr /></blockquote>Hi GIMN,

I can imagine that most the BS here are feeling a small degree of vindication when reading what you wrote above. I'm sorry, but I can't say that I feel too much empathy for the situation you put yourself in.

I just don't understand why someone would marry an affair partner when clearly that person doesn't respect marriage.

I do thank you for your honesty though. It's not easy baring your soul here especially when you're a WS in a sea of BS.

Jo

Uh...

THE SEVERELY BURNED? Ah hem...

I am doing quite well. I think it's sad and tragic how some people justify breaking up a family...for what?

As for me, the severely supposed burned one is dating and doing darn well...feeling and getting on with life faster than I thought I would.

I am SO GLAD that I am blessed to be able to pick up my pieces with A CLEAN HEART. I have NO GUILT about anything I did and can say I would do everything over again. When I go to dinner with somebody, I don't have guilt. I don't wonder if "will somebody see us?" or "how will my child take it" or any of the horrible self depricating feelings that go along with being a cheater and adulterer.

I guess I am burned but HAVE ONLY BEEN BURNED ONE TIME AND IT DOES NOT DEFINE WHO I AM..Aside from posting here just learning (I think one post adulterer here called it "adjusting")how the lives of the divorced work, my life is getting better day by day.

I also find it amazing how some people here from the other side of the fence read of how us, the BS are getting on with things...that's wierd kind of actually.

And no, I don't believe most A marriages will work.

Picked up son after school yesterday and son exclaims "FV was crying last night and daddy was talking REALLY loud with her." Yea, this shotgun honeymoon ended months ago. I suppose it did right after she had enough cajones to actually call me up on the phone.

So why in the heck might I ask are the A marriage people here? I think one's marriage has trust issues...Wonder why...

And it's amazing to me also how these M out of A's the people are here learning MB techniques. We all know this is a site to support those who've gone through pain of A. Could it possibly be that more A's are entering these new post-affair marriages?

If you have a foundation made of quicksand, then how's your house gonna stand? I don't mean to sound harsh, but it is what it is.

As for me, I wake up each day and thank God for the shoes I am wearing vs. the shoes of my xh. I'm getting on with life and moving forward and if my family and close friends are right, I will probably not be a spinster in any way whatsoever. But I am not rushing into happiness. It begins with me. Not with somebody else.

So no, this BS is not sitting at home knitting or crying. Not at all.

I understand and really don't want anyone to feel sorry or empathy for my situation. I made the decisions I made with free will (although I didn't consider some of the consequences involved) I guess I'm just sharing so the next person may think twice about doing it. Have a good weekend
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Resilient:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr /> Guilt Is My Name wrote:
One issue that continues to surface is that I realize that my new wife and I don't really trust each other. I had that with my EX and I will tell anyone, that is priceless. The new wife is very insecure. She says she just misses me so much when I'm at work, but I'm slowly realizing that she doesn't trust me when I'm away from her. We love each other, but I'm starting to get scared that I will resent her later on. About a year ago the OWtold me I could see my sons anytime I want (which I do). But now she starting to say things which indicate that she may be changing her mind.<hr /></blockquote>Hi GIMN,

I can imagine that most the BS here are feeling a small degree of vindication when reading what you wrote above. I'm sorry, but I can't say that I feel too much empathy for the situation you put yourself in.

I just don't understand why someone would marry an affair partner when clearly that person doesn't respect marriage.

I do thank you for your honesty though. It's not easy baring your soul here especially when you're a WS in a sea of BS.

Jo <hr /></blockquote>

To all the BS's suffering from the pain of a new divorce/betrayal, I can testify that it will not last forever!!! When you decide to put the FOCUS on your life and stop fretting over your Ex being happy or not happy with his/her decisions, you'll have taken that huge step that is necessary to move on with your life despite the past. PAST is the key word. You can't change it. You can't change whether or not your Ex marries/stays married to the former OP or if they are happy or not. Let it go I say! It was the key for me. My Ex married his OW over 20 years ago. Certainly glad I didn't put my life on hold waiting for them to fail!! Oy! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Reality shows us that some marriages that start out as affairs do make it, some don't. I read an article that quoted the stats not long ago. It was an actual study, not one therapist quoting his numbers. The divorce rate according to this study for second marriages is only slightly higher than first marriages. If you agree with Frank Pittman (Private Lies) he says:

"In long-standing marriages, over 90 percent of the divorces involve infidelity." and "People don't often leave marriages without first being unfaithful".

Bottom line is that it is not in your control and will serve you no good purpose to pay your Ex and his new wife any attention beyond things concerning your children and coparenting matters.

That's great advice, TFS. And I agree with it. It just doesn't offer pratical advice as to how to do it tho.

Some of us need to work things out. And what I've learned here at MB on the D/D board is a good number of the BS that have "moved on" seem to only have done so once they replaced their ex or got involved with someone else post-divorce.

I would very much like to be completely happy on my own without having to rely on someone else for that happiness. I want to be whole and feel indifference towards my ex before I call myself relationship-ready.

I want to come here and say "Life is the best it can be, I'm really a better person in-spite of the betrayal and subsequent divorce, I've grown and learned some much about myself, and oh, BTW: I'm still on my own, my choice, and happy about that too"

Jo

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Resilient:
And what I've learned here at MB on the D/D board is a good number of the BS that have "moved on" seem to only have done so once they replaced their ex or got involved with someone else post-divorce.<hr /></blockquote>Jo - I hear ya, gal. Are you talking about me?

Will you allow me to give a slight twist to this? You know I have your best interests in mind.

I believe I "moved on" when I decided that I had no interest in EVER restoring a romantic relationship with my XW. Summer is a state of mind.

I confirmed my season when I finally began "prospecting" for a new relationship. What I learned here about relationships seemed to be almost "cheating" on the competition. I was WAY ahead of other guys in the dating pool. Relationship steroids, if you will. I had a confidence in knowing what I was doing that was empowering. I KNEW what I was doing and I KNEW what I was looking for. And I found a wonderful woman - after several false starts.

As you know, I'm now just about 18 months into that new relationship and each day I'm reminded how much better it is than my marriage ever was.

You have long been at the point, I believe, of a summer-potential state of mind. What you have learned about relationships here, and all the help you've provided others, is a testament to your potential in a new relationship of your own.

Put on your smile and your cut off shorts. Summer's coming.

Dave

Want My Wife Back:

I'm so sorry for you and your little ones. They (especially the 4 year old) must be so confused and scared; I understand what an impossible position this puts you in.

Your son probably sees you as the solid, secure figure in his life right now. Mommy went away, she comes to see him but then she goes away again. Your kids are about the same age as my boy, so I think about how insecure he felt over all the transition. Kids 3-4 years old don't deal with transition well anyway, and having a parent move out shakes up their whole world. They may be scared that, while they're visiting mommy, you'll leave them too.

My son has gotten SO MUCH BETTER about this now. He used to scream whenever exH came to pick him up, he cried for me while with exH, and cried for exH when with me. We tried lots of things to make it easier, including a 30 minute "transition phase" when exH would come into the house and play with son there (while I was in the house too) before taking him on an outing. I gave son plenty of notice about when he would see daddy, when he would be with me, etc. We made a calendar and put blue stickers on the days he's with daddy after pre-school, and yellow stickers on the days I picked him up. Anything like that I could think of to give him some sense of routine and predictability to his days. I don't know if those things necessarily made the difference, it could be that he's older now and more adjusted to the situation, but he's much much better and seems to transition between Mommy and Daddy fairly easily.

Helping them through this means that their well-being is, for now, more important than your hurt and anger. As tempting as it is for me to be less than enthusiastic about my son's visits with his dad (being apart from my son for sometimes days on end is not how I want to parent), around him I really try to talk it up. "You'll have lots of fun with Daddy, what do you think you'll do together, etc." He needs a good relationship with his dad, even though his dad hurt me so much and wanted out of our marriage. Sometimes I think that exH created this situation, why should I help make it better for him? If exH doesn't have a good relationship with his only child, it is the predictable consequence of bad decisions he made. He should clean it up himself.

But then, while exH may deserve the loss/damage of the relationship with son, my son doesn't deserve the loss/damage of the relationship with his dad. It is for my son's benefit that I swallow my pain over the divorce, exH's relationship with OW, the fact that she'll be part of son's life if they do in fact marry. That sounds like I'm a martyr - I'm not!! I'm simply trying to make the best of this crappy situation for my son, and I really believe that means putting aside my contrary feelings when dealing with exH about son. That doesn't mean that I always give in to exH, but as long as he's acting reasonably then I can act civilly. I recognize that he avoided bringing OW around for as long as he did because I asked him to. He didn't have to do that. I believe he's (most of the time) trying to do what's best for son as well.

Maybe your kids need your permission and reassurance that - if divorce is going to be the resolution of this situation - it is still going to be OK. That the chaos will take order and they'll be loved and cared for by both parents.
I think your kids will look to you for how to deal with this.

I'm trying to give you practical suggestions, but I realize that your situation is different from mine. You're not even divorced yet, your STBX isn't working with you to make the adjustment easier for the kids, she doesn't seem to be respectful of how difficult her relationship with OM is for you. But you can deal with this in a way that benefits your kids. And they will be OK if they can count on you to be calm and stable for them. You sound like a loving and caring parent. You'll do fine.

I guess I disagree with the "the affair began with sin and lies therefore the marriage is doomed to eternal misery and failure" theory. The prospect of them living happily ever after is hugely painful for me, but unless OW gets wildly neurotic like Nellie1's exH's new W and tries to interfere with exH and son spending time together, I don't know that they are destined to be miserable. But I also don't want to spend much time thinking about the status of their relationship.

Guiltismyname: Thanks for your honest thoughts on your current situation. I was only shocked by one part of your reply

____________

"About a year ago the OWtold me I could see my sons anytime I want (which I do). But now she starting to say things which indicate that she may be changing her mind."

___________

Why in the world would you tolerate ANYONE, let alone your new W who is supposed to love and support you, dictating how much time you spend with your children? She needs to deal with her insecurities, and the two of you together need to deal with your trust issues. But your kids need you regardless of how secure your W is feeling at that moment. Don't let anyone sabotage your relationship with them.

From what I have read, on this board and elsewhere, it is far more common than not for the OW to try to interfere in the relationship between the father and his children, and especially to try to limit their time together. It is obvious why the OW's are insecure of course, and when the children are present the OW's are constantly reminded of their mother. I am not at all sure that my H's OW is atypical - I have read accounts here of others that are even worse.

Nellie:

REally? I guess I'm pretty naive about stuff. So far that hasn't happened in my situation. I'll keep on the lookout for it.

Why any woman would want to do that is beyond me. I would think that loving and caring for your H would mean loving and caring for his kids. How short-sighted and cruel to try to limit the relationship he has with his children.

I just don't understand some people.

I ran into an old firend of ours today, hadn't seen him for awhile, I've lost close to 75 lbs since I last seen him , he didn't reconise me, kind of a neat feeling. We had talked then about what x had done and why sort of things. This guy use to work for xH, had a lot of respect for x as a boss and as a man, told me that 15 years ago!

And as we wrapped up our visit today, he said I am sorry, but I have no respect for x anymore with what he done! Yes I did feel a little vindicated.

It really shows how selfish WS's are and how un-caring they can be. It is really sad when they let the OP/NS (new spouse) dictate to them the time they kind spend with their own children, my thought is that the child was there first and it should stay that way. I think that comes from jealousy though of the former spouse and the history that is there, that is something that they the NS does not have. And I agree that there probably isn't much trust in the marriage with the A's NS, they were dictating before the marriage when it was the WS was going to see them so on and so forth why should it change now, doesn't that ring on the finger give it more weight?

I don't know just my 2 cents worth tonight, probably not worth 2 cents though!!!!

Dawn <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Lots of good stuff on this thread! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> Great dialogue and life sharing. While there will always be more than one way to look at life and situations, I believe that a person should, for their own growth, consider all peoples views on subjects that affect them. Especially from those who have gone through similar experiences and come out the other side, with a positive attitude.

Jo,
Your post says to me that you are going to be just fine! It shows your strength. It shows your kind heart. No doubt, some day you will be on this board posting your success story!!

This says it all!

"I would very much like to be completely happy on my own without having to rely on someone else for that happiness. I want to be whole and feel indifference towards my ex before I call myself relationship-ready." I felt the exact same way years ago.

Never do I wish to be married to my Ex again. Don't miss him, and haven't for years and years. I feel total indifference towards him. Can talk to his wife with no problems. (that took some time!!) But I didn't even begin to get to that point until I gave up wanting them to fail. Made myself stop obsessing and analyzing IF they were happy. Why it looked like they weren't. How I didn't think they possibly could be considering how they started out. A person can drive themselves crazy trying to figure out if their Ex is unhappy and ever going to regret divorcing them.

If you tell yourself that THEY WILL NEVER REGRET WHAT THEY DID, they are happy, and they will never look at your marriage the way in which you do (with great value) then I believe you have taken a huge step necessary to start to move on. It's called "acceptance" and it works miracles for the betrayed person.

Will write more in a bit. Have tons to say regarding some of the previous great posts. Just don't have time to do it now.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Originally posted by justpeachy:
So why in the heck might I ask are the A marriage people here? I think one's marriage has trust issues...Wonder why...

In my case, I have been coming here to learn how not to make the mistakes I made in my 1st marriage.

And it's amazing to me also how these M out of A's the people are here learning MB techniques. We all know this is a site to support those who've gone through pain of A. Could it possibly be that more A's are entering these new post-affair marriages?

If you have a foundation made of quicksand, then how's your house gonna stand? I don't mean to sound harsh, but it is what it is.

I'm not exactly sure what the "quicksand" you're referring to is. Living w/ my 2nd wife is much less stressful than living with my 1st wife ever was. MB has helped me to learn how to communicate better w/ my W - as a result, all of the other EN's get taken care of and/or dealt with because of the open communication.

I read something the other day that seems to fit in this thread:

"The man who marries his mistress creates a job opening."

Of course, that goes both ways, this is just what the saying I read said.

That's definitely the thing that amazes me more than anything else - my stbx's ow contacted me recently via e-mail, and though I probably should have ignored it, I did answer. The first thing I said was that she had no business corresponding with me!

Anyway, she was accusing me of being unable to let go - that she could "understand" why I might be bitter, but that I needed to move on with my life. She hadn't liked something I sent to him - I won't go into details, but I found evidence on a hard drive that he might be involved in something that.... well, that if it were true, he desperately needs to get help. And they both, of course, said that I was sick to think he could ever be involved in something like that. But what I saw on the hard drive - well, it could have gotten there accidentally, and I told him I understood that, but that I was concerned, and was asking him to get help if it wasn't a mistake.

So, she was going off on me about it, that I was bitter and couldn't let go. And I told her that no, on the contrary, I have moved on. That some of the things I have found out, whether she believes them or not, have made me realize that the divorce is a good thing for me.

And then I told her that I honestly hope she's right and I'm wrong about him, and that I hope she can be happy with him, and can make him happy. Because, of course, we all know now how he handles it when he ISN'T happy in a relationship.

Ok, maybe a little mean-spirited, but I mean really, how can these people really trust each other and have a good relationship? Oh, I forgot, because it's so different this time. So yeah, don't worry about it honey, so what if he pledged undying love to me, spent 10 years of his life telling me he loved me, and yet could be playing around on me for a good part of that ten years? He would NEVER do that to YOU! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Of course, I also know that after one of the many times she has kicked him out and then let him come back, he had moved back on a Thursday, and on the following Monday had a brand new personals ad, complete with picture, out on one of the boards. Oh well, I figure she's only getting what she deserves. And since she was also cheating to be with him, well.... I guess it IS a soulmate connection! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I have been watching this thread for a while now. This has been a pretty good with only limited back-biting.

Are they happy? The new marriage will most likely not have the same dynamics as the one with you, but that does not mean it is either happy or unhappy. Each marriage is unique and those involved figure out what works for them.

Did your ex forget you and your marriage? Nope. They didn't and never will. They probably deny it and certainly view it in a less than positive light. Unfortunately people put a past marraige down to feel better about the new one. Human nature.

Will the new marriage succeed? Probably not. Marriage is hard enough to make a go of without a questionable start. I don't mean to argue the merits of a marriage with a clean start versus a marriage from adultery. Everytime you meet someone new and they ask how you met and fell in-love a lie will be told and a little nick is taken out of the marriage.

BTW, succeed and last are two different things.

I'm coming up on 2 years out from divorce and I engage to someone I met a little over a year after my D. My XW is living with the OM. I don't think they will get married. They have something that works for them. It is not the kind of R I would like, but it is not mine to live either.

They have paid a high price for their R whether they realize it or not. I want more for myself.

For the BS's out there I wouldn't worry about it. The WS has a much tougher road to travel. Given the choice I would much rather be the BS.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Scrum:
Given the choice I would much rather be the BS. <hr /></blockquote>Wow Scrum - this hit me in the face like a big wet kiss - sloppy, unexpected, but welcome after it was over.

I wish I had said it first - I've been trying to think of a way to convey this thought for some time.

Thanks,

Have to add to Scrum's post and POV.

While no one is saying that they will forget the Ex or the marriage, per se. I think some are saying that specifics are d*mn hard to remember. I agree with this as I know I can't remember any specifics about my previous marriage. I haven't been able to for a very long time.

Also, don't forget that MOST people rewrite history after a divorce. Men seem to be worse about it than woman. A very futile thing to do is wait for the Ex WS to "see" what they did wrong. Most times they never will acknowledge it to the previous partner.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Written by TFS:
While there will always be more than one way to look at life and situations, I believe that a person should, for their own growth, consider all peoples views on subjects that affect them. Especially from those who have gone through similar experiences and come out the other side, with a positive attitude.<hr /></blockquote>I try to do this and I try to learn and be respectful of everyone, regardless of their title. Sometimes the hurt takes over though and the selfishness and uncaring of the betrayal stories, my own included, makes me so angry.

I think maybe this process of healing is taking me so long because I don't have a family to fall back on. I'm not whining about it, but I do think my ex-husband was most of my life because of the lack of family. So now I'm paying that price.

I never want to rely on someone for everything like that again. That may sound hard and callous, but it now comes as instinctual to me.

When I say "rely on someone for *everything*" for me it means the intangibles: love, needs, intimacy, connection, sharing all of myself. Beyond that I am a self sufficient independent female.

Being so untrusting can be a prison within itself. But at least I'm safe.

Jo

Playing safe sucks.

Live life, don't just survive it.

What else sucks is getting cervial cancer from your promiscious spouse caused by 1 of the several STDs he shared with you, and going thru 2 OCs from 2 OWs, and having those women threaten you and your life.

I dunno, hard to say what you would risk until you've walked in those very shoes.

Jo

((((Resilient))) Big cyber hugs to you!!

Resilient, I feel for you not having a family to fall back on. My family was a Godsend during and after my divorce. They made me realize that I am a good person with lots of great qualities, whether my Ex could see them or not! Have you read the book "Coming Apart"? If not, I highly recommend it. The writer is very down to earth about relationships and the "whys" of them. She has a way of making you realize that you are OKAY, even if you divorced and regardless of the circumstances.

H or T,.
I agree with what you wrote, but sometimes people are in a very dark place and they can't live life until they are sure they're still alive.

Jo,
I just read your post! Are you okay now? Did I read this correctly, your H had two OW that produced two children?? Tell me I have this wrong.

Nope, you didn't read wrong, 2 OW, 2 OC. Hence my nic. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I'm really okay, and I don't want to hijack this thread or make it about me. I expect my time to heal will be somewhat long, I went thru a lot of crap.

And so you see, when I read that the WS's don't remember their former marriage or any circumstances, it just seems so unfair. But hey, that's the past, right?

Lv,
Jo

I understand the pain of going to gyno and asking my doc, who was a very good friend of mine to "test me for every std known to man". Very embarassing but he said to "divorce the scumbag"...

Incidentally, knew my doc three years before my xh...so he knew my character before, during and now.

About the quicksand...You REALLY need to have me explain that concept? Your foundation of your M is one fat huge honking lie...Lie. Say it with me now and slowly so it sinks into the foggy brains here...A LIE.

And sure, you'll tell lies to your new friends, to those who don't know...but those who do know will have their opinions and probably do as my xh's business partner and wife do...Smile to your face but shake their heads as soon as you turn your back.

I would assume you're here...so you can AFFAIRPROOF an Affair Spawned Marriage?

I think it would have been much much nicer to expend such energy on your previous marriage and family before jumping into something else. That's just smart.

I am not insulting anybody here, just saying the real truth of what it is...adultery isn't pretty and is a SIN. Yea, I said it. It used to be unlawful as well.

Also agreement with the previous posters who said it's best to be in the shoes of the BS...Less crapola to deal with..

I just LOVED this afternoon. Got off work early, went to have a jog, went to pick up son still 2 hours earlier than usual. At son's school, his principal lives in same subdivision with xh and wistress...She along with one of the other prek teachers see me and say "wow.,..you sure are getting in great shape..you look good"...I feel good too. Yep. The whole Plan A for myself has worked. I feel better, look better and am a better and stronger person..is my xh? Far from it.

Idon't think that it is the WS that forgets some of the M dynamics that occurred. I did as well. I had forgotten alot of the abuse and crud I endured...think the remarriage of my xh to her made me remember mine or something over these last few weeks...but today I heard song on radio that made me remember why I filed in the first place..."Never Again" by Nickelback.

I am finding as time goes on, I forget more and more about him b/c he just did "too much". Too much and worked too damn hard to earn the divorce.

If the remarried WS' here who married the OP put 1/2 the energy of going to counseling or MB principles or actually TRIED instead of throwing all their energies into the OP, then I seriously doubt they'd be here lurking around the d/d forum reading the thoughts of the recently divorced...primarily the recently divorced due to the tragedy and selfishness that IS THE HALLMARK OF ADULTERY.

And TheFeminineSide,

Thank you for your kind words. And, I'll look up that book "Coming Apart". Reading helps me a lot.

Very Best,
Jo

Jo,
Can't tell you how much I admire you! Of course it's going to take you a lot more time to put all this crap into perspective. I only went through an affair. Sure, my then H married the OW only months after we were divorced, but that is NOTHING compared to what you have gone through!! You know I remember thinking I'd never, ever, get over my Ex. Well never was very short lived! When you come out of this, you'll look back and wonder what you ever saw in the guy!! He sounds like a piece of work. Wouldn't wish him on my worst enemy.

JP,
If I had had and internet board when I was a BS, I'd probably sound a lot like you. Unfortunately, all that anger you lash out is only hurting you dear. It took me a L-O-N-G time to acknowledge that some marriages that begin as affairs DO WORK OUT. Some are even very happy together. I have not one, but several marriages in my own family (very large family) that began as affairs. Also know three couples (long time now) who have not hidden the fact they started out as an affair. Told then H and I very casually during relationship discussions. The one couple seems shakey to me and not very trustful. The other two look to be perfect matches. The ONLY reason I am sharing this with you is to highlight that they do exist. You will be better off accepting the fact that your Ex might stay with his now W forever. You don't know what is going to happen with them. Further, you have to stop obsessing about it and analyzing it to death. Make yourself stop thinking about him and it (their marriage) whenever it creeps into you head. Get a rubberband and put on your wrist and snap it when you think about them. It works! Made me stop obsessing!

Everyone have a fantastic weekend. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I actually use the rubber band and it's worked pretty darn good.

I don't really focus on it..but...the M isn't going to last b/c other OW is back on scene and they're hot and heavy again.

There's another gal here who's been virtually on same plane as me for last three years and our timetables are almost exact...

Jacky? Oh Jacky?

Her x waited a few days longer than mine to remarry and thank heavens...he has not yet decided to procreate with CC...

She has some interesting insight on the marriages after A's...her xh asked her to reconcile and immediatley after she shut the door, he married OW..

I just don't believe affair marriages will work for the most part. Sure, there are always statistical dark horses you can't factor into the equation...A few will last. But at what cost? I bet that even in the ones that survive they will forever be sneaking or looking over their shoulders or harboring guilt and self resentment for their actions. I just don't find it a way to begin a truly "healthy" relationship.

If you want to end something first then do so. Don't end something because the grass is a little greener across the street. If it were me, and i were truly unhappy being M'd, then I'd go to counseling, work the MB program, and then if all failed, then I would end. But not after trying. And if i did end it, it would only be to one day have a brighter future.

If my x had done this, we probably could be on speaking terms now and I would probably go to have coffee with the w now. Funny, but I am good friends with all my x bf's from college...Even went out with the last one I had recently btw. Guess I learned early that you treat others as you wish to be treated. Simple as that.

People have to be honest. I mean, who in the world would want a friendship with somebody who lied, cheated, and stole their marriages, time with their kids, and probably hard earned assets? Nobody would. And so many x's think we should erase our short term memories and just embrace their selfishness and "move on". Sure, we'll move on...but without any interaction with the x except for the ones who are co parents like myself who have to bite their tongue and deal with that for their kids' sake... That's the real truth. We can be all P.C. about things and say what somebody "should" do and what is "healthy" to do and how we should interact well as co parents but I swear...everytime I hear my xh's voice or see him, my stomach lurches and I feel sick. I really do. It's a complete aversion reaction and it's not going away.

Resilient I am sorry it's taken me so long to respond. I don't get on here much. You asked how long I was married to my first husband. It was 10 years so I've been seperated/divorced from him almost just as long. That is true...there is a lot I don't really remember about my life then. I guess it's because I'm a much happier person then I was 10-20 years ago. And it's not all to do with whom I'm married to etc..it's everything. I'm older and at a more established time in my life. My kids are both teens now. Obviously because of that I have more free time then I did during my first marriage. I also enjoy the kids more older then I did when they were real little. I guess I don't have a ton of fond memories during my first marriage so there isn't a lot to remember. What I do know is that from day one I put more effort into my second marriage then I ever did my first. Some of that was due to being older and not wanting to ever go through another failed marriage. Some of it had to do with the type of man my second husband was/is compared to my ex. As for comments regarding step mom's....specifically some of Nellie's comments...believe it or not there are more step mom's like she deals with then you'd ever imagine. My ex's wife is a total nut. So much so that my kids can hardly stand going over there and rarely do now. She did and does things that would make your hair stand up. At first I thought she acted like that out of fear of the ex and I talking but after years she isn't any better. I guess as a step parent I don't understand how you can really love your husband and yet treat his children poorly. Do they remind you of the ex? Oh I don't know about that. If they do, so what? My step daughter looks exactly like her mother. Isn't that to be expected considering she IS her mother?? Now I'm starting to babble.....

I think my x's new W/OW can't help but see me when looking at my son. He looks exactly like me and not much like my x. My xh has dark hair and son has blonde hair, blue eyes, and my face exactly. He looks like the odd ball out when with that group...All dark hair (hers streaky and dark). Plus son is confused by her presence and probably isn't the nicest to her...he wishes she'd just "go away" as he said to me time and again and wants her son to "go back to his own home".

She emailed me from xh's address and thought I didn't or wouldn't notice if she immediately thereafter sent another email from her address...both of which are AOL accounts. She's lookin' over that shoulder of hers and rightly so. He's got himself another OW...who knows where this will end but I believe end is in sight for FV..I think x married her to give the baby a proper last name.