I'm new to the site, and a little unfamiliar with the acronyms, but I'm in desperate need of help. I cheated on my H last year and got pregnant with the OM. This is my only child and she's 4 months old. My H and I have reconciled and are actually doing really good, but I can't stop thinking about the OM. I feel terrible about hurting him. I also feel terrible about hurting my H. I feel terrible, period. I can't stop agonizing about it. The worst part is that I led the OM to believe that we would be together, and he wants to be a part of the child's life, but my H insists NC. I want to forget about the OM and move on, but how do I forget? How do I stop caring about his feelings, his wanting to know his child? How do I know I'm doing the right thing by my baby to keep her from the OM? Any advice is welcome!

Good grief. Look no disrespect intended but you have a real man in your H. OM is an imposter, interloper, thief whatever term you can think of. He stole what was not his. Your H is willing to forgive you and raise YOUR and OM's child as his own. That my dear is REAL LOVE. What you had with the imposter was FANTASTY.

Get yourself together. Get on the phone and make an appointment to counsel with the Harley's. Get the MB on-line program. GET WORKING on falling madly in love with the real thing...your husband.

A few questions...

How long have you been married? Does your H have any children or is this OC his only child as well? How old are both of you? How long did the affair last? How did you meet OM? Are you in complete NC now? That includes even being able to spy on him on facebook etc.

Then read posts by a writer1. She came here feeling guilty about OM not being in her OC's life. Read posts by pops, he is the man who raised his WW's OC while having C with the xOM. If pops could go back he would rather NOT have had to make OC go back and forth between them and OM. Mostly because of the effect it had on his FWW.

You are so right that my H is amazing. The most forgiving man I have ever met. The most loyal, too. I don't deserve him. But we've been married 8 yrs, and this is our first child. I met the OM several years ago, and we had feelings back then but went our sep ways. But the affair began this last year and lasted a year total. I'm trying to be in NC, but it's hard. He is begging to see his child. My H is not aware of any C. But my H basically said he can't have the OM in our lives. And he's right. It's not fair to him to have to deal with that forever. I want to stop caring what OM wants...I will definitely read writer1's posts. I need to get through this. Your words are helping already!

Hi wanthealing. I don't have much time tonight, but I will say that it gets easier with time. I felt very guilty about depriving the OM of the right to know his child in the beginning as well. It was hardest in the months right after the baby was born.

My OC is now 2. I have been completely NC with the OM for over a year. He has never seen our OC and has now decided that he doesn't want to be a part of her life (he did in the beginning). I really don't even think about the OM anymore. This little girl belongs to my H now in every way other than the DNA. He truly is an amazing father and he loves her as his own child. I am very lucky and so are you. Not many men are willing to accept an OC into their lives.

It is hard in the beginning, especially with all the fluctuating hormones.

I have a few questions. How long have you been NC with the OM?

Does the OM live near you?

Has the OM ever seen the baby?

Is your H listed as the father on the birth certificate?

Thank you for your support! I was just reading your story, writer1, and am so inspired. I have just now est NC...so it's only been days. My H doesn't know about the C, tho. The OM lives about 20 min from me, but I've not seen him since the OC was days old. The OM has only seen her twice when she was a week old. Not since. And my H is listed on the bc and has taken every role of daddyhood--even helping me with every contraction during labor. I'm glad to know I'll one day forget about the OM. But he filed for rights in the courts and it got dismissed but he's threatened to appeal it. I am both scared that he'll get partial custody and yet a secret part wants him in my life for some reason (insanity)...but I know it's not best for anyone, esp if my M is to survive. No one knows about the A but my H.

You may want to check with an attorney, since the OM in your case seems to be more insistent on pursuing his rights than the OM in my case was. In many states, the H is considered the legal father to any child born during the M, and the OM would have few if any rights. But an attorney in your state would be able to inform you about the laws where you live. The fact that he already filed a case and it was dismissed seems like a good sign that he probably wouldn't have any rights.

Is the OM married? I know you said that no one else knows about the A, but it might help to expose to the OM's family, especially if he is married. The OM in my case definitely didn't want anyone in his family, including his teenaged children and ex-wife, to know about the OC, so that worked in our favor in getting him to agree to NC.

I also wanted the OM in our child's life for a long time. But now that we have been NC for so long, I realize that it is in our OC's best interest to be raised in an intact family. The OM in my case lives 3000 miles away, and any sort of shared custody would have been a nightmare. I know in Pops case, he went after the OM for child support and the OM does have visitation. 2 years later, I am very happy that my H and I are raising our OC with no involvement or interference from the OM.

My H and I got an attorney and are doing everything we can to keep the OM away. We are at the mercy of the OM's appeal right now. But my H is considered the legal father, which is good. But I'm afraid my emotions will thwart our efforts to stay intact.

The OM is divorced, no kids (other than my OC), and his whole family knows about the A. They luckily have not tried to C me or my OC. But the OM is very determined, and he has a lot of hatred for me right now because of what I've done to him. And I actually care what he thinks and feels! Why? My H and I want to have more children together and continue building a life together. I know we can be happy once I get over my guilt.

After reading several threads I'm starting to see the light about how my emotions can cause more harm. I love my H. I truly do. And he loves me...more than I can imagine. I thank God for him daily. My feelings for the OM are only a fantasy, but his grip on me is tight right now and I must break free. He knows my buttons to push. I don't want to repeat my poor choices again and again. And I want to protect my OC. It's just so hard not dwelling on it, trying to make everything work out for everyone without having to go to court again... Thinking about this is like a second full-time job while being a stay-at-home mom. Honestly, since finding this website it's been the first time in months where I feel like I'm making emotional progress. Just having a listening ear, and some much-needed advice, has lifted such a weight.

Is there something I can do to get closure from the OM? Or is that wishful thinking?

Btw, I truly believe in Dr. Harley's concept of mutual agreement, where my H and I must agree enthusiastically about any decision we make. But it's hard to apply that to my desire for closure with the OM, since my H doesn't understand my desire for that.

I don't know if there is any such thing as closure in a situation such as this. I think what helped me overcome some of my guilt was the realization that the OM was not a "victim" in this situation. He knew full well what he was doing when he chose to have sex with another man's wife. He chose his actions, and he got the consequences of those actions. As my counselor said to me many times, you don't owe the OM anything. There are no guarantees when you choose to have an A. The OM has to accept the fact that a logical consequence of his having an A with a married woman and conceiving an OC is that he may have a child whose life he does not get to take part in. He made his bed, now you need to leave him to lie in it.

Right now, your focus needs to be on recovering your marriage and creating a stable, loving relationship with your H. That is in your best interests and in the best interests of your child.

Your H is doing a very difficult thing. It takes an exceptional man to do what he is doing. So focus on that. Focus on spending time with your H rebuilding your M. I don't know how familiar you are with Dr. Harley's concepts, but one thing he believes in is 15+ hours a week of UA (Undivided Attention) time each week. You and your H need to make an effort to spend time alone together (I know, it's hard with a baby, but it's important to do this). You need to use this time to reconnect and learn how to start meeting each other's needs. The more you focus on your relationship with your H and on creating a loving, stable home environment in which to raise your child (and future children) the less you will think about the OM.

How old are you and your BH?

OM breaking NC and fighting for his parental rights are reasons to move at least 20 hours by car away from the OM once this custody appeal is over.

As writer1 said there are no guarantees for any one when you have affairs.

We are both 30 and fully committed to working through this, no matter what it takes--even if a move is necessary. Do the courts typically allow a family to take a child away if there is shared custody? While I was a terrible wife (working on making it up to my BH for the rest of our lives together), I honestly am a good mom and would be devestated at having to share my child with the OM.

I now see and agree that I can't worry about closure with or making the OM happy. I'm sure it will be a daily struggle to forget about him. It doesn't make me stop caring about the OM (I had a long history with him, and on some level I loved him), but I want to redirect my focus from the OM to my BH. I've taken some practical steps to help myself, like flirt texting with my BH, calling him throughout the day to tell him I love him, and really working on that 15 hours of quality time a week together. We communicate well together, so he's made it easy to rekindle what was lost. But being at home alone all the time with the baby gives me too much "thinking" time, and I live in a rural area where it's hard to find friends.

Forgive me if I've missed this somewhere in the thread, but do you have DNA that proves OC is OM's?

I agree that if you can move, DO SO. We are moving 1500 miles away from OW/OC.

Dr. Harley recommends NC between OM/OC until the child is 18. Forget OM. You have an amazing H right in front you.

The OM got an at-home DNA test done, which showed him as the biological father. It's not legally recognized, which is the only way we are able to keep our family intact... for the time being. But OM is currently appealing the courts for a legal paternity test to be done, at which point he'll proceed with fighting for custody. Why doesn't OM realize that a broken home is not good for OC? I came from a broken home and it messed me up! My H came from a unified home and it made him a strong, good man. If the OM cared anything for the OC, wouldn't he want OC to have a healthy single home environment without all the tension that is inevitable if we share custody?

I commend you, migsamac, for your choice to protect your marriage relationship despite what's happened. It's people like you who use terrible situations to help others get through rough times. Why do bad things happen to good people? So that they can help people like me!

We did an at home test also. If OW ever tries to come after us (currently she is leaving us alone), we will make her pursue a legal test. What I wouldn't give for the at-home test to prove faulty? Not likely........,

Many mistakes have been made past the PA. You allowed the OM to know that the kid could be his. You allowed a DNA home kit DNA test to be done. You allowed the OM to have contact with the OC.

Being the OM has moved and filed right away to get paternal rights he has improved his chances to get them. Laws are changing all the time and vary state by state. If the OM wins in court you will most likely not get to move away because he will be denied his rights as a dad.

How did your BH first find out about the PA and that the OC was not his?

On the MB site Dr Harley has stated that there are situations when the WW and BH have no other children and are young and have been married a short time and as a result of the affair there is an OC, it�s best for the BH to divorce and move on and start over when the WW will not end the affair. That the OC deserves to be raised by both bio parents in a family unit. But you want your BH now.

Then Dr H goes on to say that if the marriage is recovered the child should be told who here real dad is as soon as she is old enough to understand, though the WW and BH can hide the truth if they desire so. If she finds out the truth later in life there will be major trust issues between the OC WW and BH.

However in my mind how can a sneak and cheater be considered a good role model for a dad? Though he can claim he has learnt the errors of his ways and seen the light. Just the way you are now. Claiming and being are two different things.

I hope this OM is only putting up a fuss to keep his options alive at getting you back. That once he is denied paternal rights he will go away. Best thing is to not let OM have any contact with you. You must stay completely dark/NC so the message sinks in that it�s over.

Its one thing to ignore/forget/pretend/get over an affair happened. No one can ignore an OC.
You had a PA. You still can be a good mom, wife to your BH. Your BH can not just accept but actually love the OC.

Though you can not control what the courts do. Then even if you decide to keep the bio dad a secret your OC may find out. What if the OC finds out after you�ve gone? BH gone? Finds out after OM gone and never gets to meet her bio dad.

This is why I suggest that you counsel with the Harley�s. There are too many problems to be encountered here without professional help.

Could we have a basic timeline?

Affair start end date
D day
Realize you were pregnant from the OM
NC date

PA started 9/2009 and ended 6/2010 once OC born. OM only met OC twice. I got pregnant right away, but I thought the OC was my BH's until after the OC's birth. To be honest, I strung both along the whole pregnancy, unable to let go of either. I was so wrong to do that, but I was selfish. Dday was a week after OC's birth (6/2010) when DNA test was done. I told my H everything right away once those results came back. NC date is only a couple days ago, although our communication was very sparse. A secret email here or there of his and my back-and-forth pleading.

How hard is it to have OM in our lives if he ends up w partial custody? My BH wants to stay together no matter what; he loves OC like his own and wants no life without her or me. But I'm worried that it will be too much for him--and me--if OM must be in our lives. My BH has gone through enough! Though we both agreed to tell OC about bio father when she's old enough to understand. We don't want surprises down the road. Then she can make her own decision to get to know OM later on, when it won't threaten to devestate our marriage. At least that's where our minds are at right now with it. It's deep water to wade through right now...

Dear migsamac:

I noticed your sig said you were trying for 6 yrs to have COM. Just as a side note, we too tried for a long while. We were actually starting to look into adoption when everything happened. But my prayers are with you if you still want COM. I honestly don't think biology matters much, as we still plan to adopt someday and embrace all our future children as ours--whether we conceive them together or not. I hope your dreams come true, whatever they may be.

WH

Though we both agreed to tell OC about bio father when she's old enough to understand. We don't want surprises down the road.

Good choice, I was an OC and my adoptive parents lied to me about my circumstances.

I did have some limited contact with my bio-father as a child and I was glad to have memories about him when I went to speak to him as an adult. I feel that biology is a good deal of who we are and the child should have some contact, I wished I had known earlier.

At some time in the future your child may wish to change her last name, I wished I had done so some time ago, I feel like I have perpetuated the fraud into another generation.

God Bless
Gamma

Gamma, your experience is exactly what I'm concerned about. I want to be honest, but I'm unsure if it's in the OC's best interest to know OM, because that will certainly result in a broken home. I don't want the OC bouncing from home to home. I want OC to have a stable, consistent home life. How can that be achieved in this type of situation if OM is part of OC's life? I want to avoid anymore mistakes that could harm my marriage or my OC. And how does that account for the NC?

WH,

I want to be honest, but I'm unsure if it's in the OC's best interest to know OM,

No outcome in these cases is entirely happy, but being completely open mean no lies to maintain.

The wild card in here is your childs future personality which you do not know.

Also not only is OM her family, but his family is her family too, this is part of her identity. Does your H family know?

I would guess you feel it is too late to adopt out the OC to another family.

God Bless
Gamma

WH,
Yes, we have no COM and that's another story in of itself. That is one the reasons my sitch is so painful. Some skank HO gave my beloved his firstborn when I could not.

You will get many opinions on this thread, but I strongly recommend that you follow the Harley's recommendation of NC between OM/OC until the OC is grown. You already realize the potential toxicities, so go with your gut. Let your wonderful H raise OC. Repair your marriage. Don't do any further damage.

There are no easy answers and EVERYONE will be hurt by your choices, but "choose the path of least nuclear fallout"....in the words of our own, De-Lean De.

wanthealing: Dr. Harley does advise people in our situation to have NC with the OM and he believes very much that it is in the OC's best interest to not have the OM be a part of his/her life. Either way, it is imperative that YOU have NC with the OM for life. Even if he does win custody/visitation rights, you will have to find an intermediary to handle exchanges for visitation. If you want to save your M, you cannot have contact with the OM.

Gamma's opinion seems to be in the minority around here. I also am an OC. I had very limited contact with my bio father until I was 14 and I have not spoken to him or seen him in over 25 years. I have never met anyone in his family other than his oldest daughter, who was 17 when I was born. Most of his family do not even know of my existence. Do I ever feel as though there was something missing in my life? Yes, sometimes. But, under the circumstances, I cannot really imagine that I would have felt very accepted by my father's family even if there had been more extensive contact. My father chose to stay and work on his M and I think that was the right choice for him and it would have been difficult at best for me to be a part of that. I do have a family. I have a mother, grandparents, aunts, cousins. I don't really think of my father's family as my "family" because they are not the people who raised me.

It is impossible to project into the future and know everything that might happen. Right now, the best thing you can do for your OC is concentrate on recovering your marriage and creating a stable, loving home life for your child.

Well said, writer1.

My H and I didn't even start recovering until he stopped contact with OW. That was about 6 months after D-day. And then it took him a long time to get past his feelings for her, even though he was committed to making the marriage work.

Before he went NC, he was different towards me everytime he had talked to her. I could tell and it tore me apart more everytime. He thought he could balance between the two of us and have some contact with OW, but he finally (after I found his last secret phone) realized he couldn't. And I couldn't.

It was very hard for me to watch my H yearn for another woman while he was deciding what to do and after he went (after false starts) NC. Excrutiating. I'm not sure how long I could have done it if there hadn't finally been progress that I could see and feel. Even if your H doesn't say anything, I'd bet he could tell when you were in contact with OM.


I know you are only a few days past NC and it is hard. Each little contact sends you back to nearly the beginning of your progress away from OM. But it does get better and easier the longer you stay away from OM.

We are 6-1/2 years past d-day and very happy. The relationship is better than before, but it took both parties being committed and lots of time and effort. It was worth it.

Joint custody is a rocky, rocky road that few couples in this situation negotiate very well. Try to avoid it, if you can.

I think what the majority consensus is saying feels right for us--NC 100%. My H and I will fight for full custody as hard as we can, and we have to leave the rest up to God. But I feel much more confident that with my H and I raising our OC together, she will lack nothing. My H's love for our OC is boundless, and he shows it every moment he's with her. Even after what I did to him, he shows incredible love to me every day. If anything, this situation has made our love stronger. When we feel our OC is ready to handle the truth, we'll tell her about my A and explain why we chose to keep OM away. Hopefully our OC can forgive us.

The support in this forum is amazing. I must thank each one of you personally. I get tempted to turn on my IM (how my OM and I used to communicate) and instead I jump into this forum and find the strength to resist. Thank you thank you thank you!

So your BH never suspected anything until you told him?

If the OM gets shared custody you must still maintain NC. Pick ups and drop offs can be done at neutral places without you there and the same for BH. Most likely best if you mom could do it.

If the OM needs to communicate it can be done through a 3rd party such as your mom.

My BH never had any idea until I fessed up. None of our family or friends know; just my BH and pastor. Only my BH's family lives near us (my fam is far away). Is this something I should tell the whole fam? My BH is afraid that if his fam finds out they will want nothing to do with OC or me, which will be heartbreaking because right now they adore OC and spend tons of time with us.

WH,

When I said that no outcome in these cases is entirely happy, I was also referring to the implicit lies your H family are being told now since they are deceived that the child they are supporting is their blood.

Since you do need to tell the child of her heritage at some time in the futurek please tell everyone now as you cannot ask your child to maintain this lie. I went through my early life keeping a secret of my family background as I felt a certain shame in it. I now tell everyone I am the illegitimate child of Mrs X and the very religious Dr Y.

There is also a reasonable possibility that OM will inform H's family or the court proceedings will become known.

God Bless
Gamma

No need to tell friends, now and most likely never.

However I think BH's parents and your parents should be told. Then your and BH's siblings need to know.

What to do with SIL's and BIL's? And, with previously mentioned family memebers that can't keep their mouths shut?

Call the Harley's on this one.

Ask W1 who in her family knows?

What does your pastor say onn this?

Gamma: Why do you feel the need to tell everyone you meet about the circumstances of your bio parents? I know a lot of adopted people, and while most of them are open about their adoption status (at least with friends and family) none of them feel moved to provide an account of the marital status (or any other info for that matter) about the parents who chose to place them up for adoption.

To answer The Road's question, everyone in my family knows about the OC. Our older kids, grandparents, aunts/uncles all know. In our case, we really didn't have much of a choice, since my H had a vasectomy 12 years ago, and everyone knew that. We told everyone the truth from the very beginning. I wouldn't say there haven't been a few acceptance issues, but overall, everyone has been very accepting of our OC. It probably took my H's parents the longest to come around, but they do love her and treat her as they do any of the other grandchildren now.

WH, FWIW, in my sitch only our parents and 3 close friends know. As far as I'm concerned, that's the way it will be forever. I feel strongly that there is no need to inflict pain on the rest of our friends and family. Pls keep that in mind as you are considering this.

In retrospect, we now say that we wouldn't have told our parents. However, immediately after D-Day, I was fairly certain that I was leaving H, therefore the need to give our parents a reason. I am still here to date and wish so badly we hadn't told anyone. When sitch happened, we were 5 states away from any friends and family so the chances of them finding out were slim to none.

Hmmm...this def gives me a lot of think about and we'll probably need to be counseled through this decision by the Dr. Harley. But I would like to hear if anyone has any personal experience or thoughts on this. There are so many possible outcomes, and I know I can't control them all, but here's the dilemmas:

1. We def plan to tell OC about OM, no matter what the court outcome is. When, we're not sure yet. OC's only 4 mos old right now, but I don't know if popping it on her in her teen years is a good idea. I'm thinking the earlier the better, but how do you explain an PA to a child? What's too young, what's too old to tell OC?

2. When we tell the OC, we would probably need to tell the fam that she has relationships with (my parents, my BH's parents). My parents will likely accept it and move on. H's, well, they tend to hold grudges for a very very long time and have strong feelings against A--so strong that it's almost scary. And my MIL tends to be a gossip and spread fam stuff fast and far. But they (my H's fam) live 10 mins from us. So if OC knows, certainly it will come up to them, and who knows the havoc that will result. Will it be better if the A was a long-gone thing if we wait to tell them several years from now? Or will they be more angry we didn't tell them sooner? Sooner? Later? When's better for the OC and the fam to find out?

Our pastor has counseled us some, and he feels our close fam should all know (and hopefully keep it to themselves), but even he concedes that this is an issue that may not have one easy answer. Either way, he says I may be painted the big red WW by some and I'll just have to not care what they think or say and instead focus on my H and God's grace to get through it. That will be the hard part--dealing with the judgment.

I've just decided not to worry about telling my OC right now. She's only 2, so we are a long way from having to deal with that. I'm hoping we'll know when the time is right.

As far as telling yours and your BH's parents, I think you should do that now if you plan on telling them eventually. If you wait, they will feel deceived and will probably have a much harder time accepting the situation.

Of course, in your situation, not telling anyone at all (including the OC) is an option. I believe there's another poster on here (Autumn Day?) who chose this route. I think her OC is about 8 or 9 now, and no one other than her and her BH know. That only works though if the OM decides not to pursue custody/visitation.

What stops the OM from contacting your family or your husbands family and telling them? Or mutual friends etc?

W1,

Gamma: Why do you feel the need to tell everyone you meet about the circumstances of your bio parents?

Lots of compelling reasons, I guess I opt for a

1) Because it avoids rumors if the truth is known
2) Because it is the truth
3) I don't have to explain away any inconsistent details.
4) This isn't the mob, I never took a vow to lie for anyone.
5) It helps with my personal acceptance of my origins.

God Bless
Gamma

I was wondering why you don't just tell people you are adopted and leave it at that?

I sense that you have a great deal of anger towards your adoptive parents, and I'm not sure I understand that. What did they do wrong? They adopted you out of less-than-ideal circumstances and then accepted you as their own, raised you, loved you. Why the anger towards them? I can't see that they did anything wrong. Most adopted children do not come from great home environments and it seems as though your adoptive parents wanted to offer you a better life than your bio parents were able to. I think they should be commended for that.

W1,

The story I tell people hardly involves my adoptive parents at all, yes they were good people, but that is not the full story, and, at least in my case, I am very much like my bio-family who I've met.

I suppose you are speaking of the implicit slight in that mentioning my bio-family somehow diminishes my adoptive parents role in and contribution to my life and well-being?

God Bless
Gamma

Gamma, no I was referring to your comments about how your adoptive parents lied to you about your bio parents and the circumstances surrounding your birth, but I don't know the full story.

I just wanted to give an update that it's been over a week of NC with my OM, and I've hardly given it a thought, thanks to all of you who have shown support and given advice!

We are still undecided about who to tell and when, but we're thinking about waiting until the court case is complete so that we know all the facts before we tell. We're pretty sure OM won't contact our families because it could hurt his court case if he "harrassed" us.

Now counseling and doing the MB program are on the horizon, which should hopefully help restore the relationship, since right now I have significant work to do to rebuild trust! Any tips on some steps to take? I've given my BH all access to my phone, e-mail, and he calls me to check in. Plus I don't go anywhere without him right now. My concern is that eventually this will turn into me being a "captive" and him controlling me, which is not healthy either.

Should I repost this inquiry on another forum heading?

"We are still undecided about who to tell and when, but we're thinking about waiting until the court case is complete so that we know all the facts before we tell. We're pretty sure OM won't contact our families because it could hurt his court case if he "harrassed" us."

Wise decision.

It sounds like you're doing good! You could repost on the Surviving an Affair board, since it gets more traffic and you may get more responses. Many of the recovery issues will be the same as those without an OC, though an OC does complicate things somewhat.

Keep up the good work and make sure that you and your H are spending 15-20 hours a week of UA time together. This is something that has been missing in my M lately, and it does take a toll. I know it's hard with a baby but it is so very important.

WH,

There is a thread here that address the OM as interloper in the M and the courts in KY ruled that he must stay out of the M and therefore out of the OC's life. If you search for it you can probably locate it. I think Mr. Wondering posted it originally. You will get opinions on both sides here. Here is mine. My FWH is 100% NC with OW and OC. He is required to pay CS and does. Having been divorced and having a child split between 2 homes on my side, we had already experienced what you fear for your OC. Fight for your M and your self-respect. Stay NC with OM. Raise your OC as your COM and teach her the values that you forgot. When she is old enough (and every person is different) you can inform her. But you will need to be honest and forthcoming in your information, what it did to you and to BH. That the least harm and best conditions for all was the goal of the adults.
Stop all C with OM. Change your email your cellphone. Everything. We relocated over 2,000 miles away. It makes it much more difficult for C from OW this way
Closure is C and it is 100% selfish. There is no reason in the world for your H to agree to you making C with OM to "say goodbye". POJA is very important, and it requires the consideration of the other parties feelings. You know that having to go say goodbye to your lover would hurt your BH. This is really a no-brainer. YOU have to shut it down. Do it for yourself, your BH, your M, and most importantly the OC that you created and brought into the world so that she can grow up with two parents, M'ed and in love with each other!

Well said FTS!

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2066526&page=1

There was a link to the bio's dad blog on page four but it has 99% of the earlier posted material on the bio dads blog is gone.

I couldn't get past the first page and medc's constant references to women's boobs. Like those are the only thing that differentiate a woman from a man. Whatever a judge takes into consideration regarding who should or should not have custody of a child, I seriously doubt it has anything to do with boobs.

Still, an interesting argument. Is there anything on the thread that gives the eventual outcome of the case?

Whats wrong with boob's?
If you get mad at your BH will you still hold them ah I meant hold it against him?

wh,,, when i 1st started reading this thread i saw you as still burning your candle at both ends and felt your h deserved a better deal then that. you are still fighting the fog and that is where your problems lie.

i am hoping that finding this site and being able to come here for advice and support will give you the strength to continue to do the right thing and be Honest with your h.

i wouldn't fear disclosure to yours or h's family's. your family will most likely be shocked but the oc is still in their bloodline and they will love her regardless.

your h's family will also be shocked but i'm betting they will do the same thing my family did and follow your h's lead and support him in his decisions.

we are raising our oc and om has visitation and pays cs. she will be 9 in december.

originally i pushed for the cs and if om felt obligated he could have his visits.

there were many reasons for that decision. my health, finances (for my fww, com and oc) should something happen to me, age, size of our family, my past experience with my older son (split home), and the fact that i like to keep my enemies where i can see them.

that view changed when i saw how hard it was for my w dealing with oc going back and forth.

now i am on the fence but it is too late for us to change. i offered the om the chance to get out and go his merry way a couple of years back but he declined. so we are making the best of our situation

here is another ftr. originally i was the go between. handled all drop offs and pick ups and all communication.

that has changed. now and for the past 2 years or so all communication is handled by my w. i believe that she is completely open and honest with me about everything and it is done thru text messages mostly and kept to business only.

"here is another ftr. originally i was the go between. handled all drop offs and pick ups and all communication.

that has changed. now and for the past 2 years or so all communication is handled by my w. i believe that she is completely open and honest with me about everything and it is done thru text messages mostly and kept to business only."

A big Harley No No. There must be NC for life. You mister need to get unlazy and man up an enforce NC today, NOW, 7:07 AM EST not a second later.

Your actions have taught your OC that time heals all, that WW and OM actions were not that bad because my SD allows contact between OM and my mom after they have sex and cuckold my SD.

First bad decision going for CS which has kept OM in your marriage.

Another bad decision allowing NC to be broken.

Pops, I agree with The Road. I can't even imagine the toll it would take on the health of my M if I had to have ongoing C with the OM 9 years after the A. Even if your W is being honest with you and the communication is all business, that simply isn't healthy for your M. There is no way to heal and move on with continued contact. Why on earth would you want your W to continue having C with the OM after all these years? If you don't want to be the mediator anymore, you and your W could get a 3rd party to do that.

A cautionary tale for you. My H's A started literally within days of our wedding. He finally confessed a year later and we immediately set forth a plan of NC (without knowing anything about MB). Several years later, the OW weaseled her way back into our lives and we all became "friends" (brilliant of me, I know). My H swore up and down that he didn't have feelings for her anymore. Fast forward several years, when I got a bombshell dropped on me yet again and was informed late one night by my very tearful and remorseful H that the "friendship" with OW had been quite a bit more than just friendly for some time. I thought he was being O&H with me too. He was always where he said he would be (I checked). He never saw the OW unless me or the kids were with him. Come to find out, they were sneaking off upstairs for little "sessions" when he would take the kids over to her house to play (sometimes even while her H or I was in the house). Where there's a will (and an opportunity) there is a way. Giving your W that opportunity is an EXTREMELY bad idea, no matter how honest she seems.

while i agree that our choice is a "big harley no no" i disagree that with contact there can ever be "nc for life"

i will state right here, right now that the harley's are much wiser, have dealt with far far more cases similar to ours, done much more research on the topic and have had more information then i to form there opinions and priciples..

do i agree with their principles? yes. do i agree with all their opinions? no.

i listened to their radio segment on one of our own loving members (FF) and quite put off by the myopic position that was so professionally expressed. i thought it shallow and nothing more then negative

BUT

i will say that i (as has anyone else who has dealt with this) has had more "real" life experience with our situation then the harleys

i also disagree with what you say the oc has been taught. at 8 yrs 11 months i think she doesn't even or can't even begin to understand the emotional ramifications of what her mother and bio did to my marriage

BUT

she can understand that her daddy isn't trying to beat her bio to death every time i see him or talk negatively about him ever. does that mean that time dheals all (which it does, more on that later)

she understands that her mother and bio can be civil even tho they are not living under the same roof

she understands forgiveness

she understands civality

now i am in no way suggesting that anyone else follow the same path as i did just simply saying what is working for us

now for the time heals all.. how do you think that 2 men who tried killing each other 30 , 40 , 50 years ago in battle can sit down aface to face and celebrate their servival if "time" did not work its healing magic

enough said on that?

would go on longer but the work day is calling me

�i disagree that with contact there can ever be "nc for life"�

I�ve seen breaking NC years later cause to many affairs to re start.

�i will state right here, right now that the harley's are much wiser, have dealt with far far more cases similar to ours, done much more research on the topic and have had more information then i to form there opinions and priciples..�

What is the point of this baloney?

�do i agree with their principles? yes. do i agree with all their opinions? no.�

�i will say that i (as has anyone else who has dealt with this) has had more "real" life experience with our situation then the Harleys�

One does not have to be shot with a gun to know gun�s will kill after seeing people shot a lot of times

�i also disagree with what you say the oc has been taught. at 8 yrs 11 months i think she doesn't even or can't even begin to understand the emotional ramifications of what her mother and bio did to my marriage�

Have you not read here how WS�s exposed to parents affairs even at younger ages wound up being wayward themselves as adults.

This points to you being so fogged up that you are not realizing how you are teaching your acceptance of the OM impregnating your WW by not banishing the OM from your families life for ever.

Your example is a BH that refuses to protect his family from an interloper. This is your lesson.

�she can understand that her daddy isn't trying to beat her bio to death every time i see him or talk negatively about him ever. does that mean that time dheals all (which it does, more on that later)�

She understands that what the OM and her mom did must not be that bad because you allowed contact for WW and contact for DD with the OM. A child�s logic is simple and direct. She see�s your approval of OM being in your family after the affair.

�she understands that her mother and bio can be civil even tho they are not living under the same roof�

She understands that continue contact between affair partners is ok because you allow it.

�she understands forgiveness�

DD has been taught to forgive things that should not be.

�she understands civility�

DD is being taught to have acceptance of breaking NC.

�now i am in no way suggesting that anyone else follow the same path as i did just simply saying what is working for us�

Because you know that for you to tell others to follow your steps would be wrong.

�now for the time heals all.. how do you think that 2 men who tried killing each other 30 , 40 , 50 years ago in battle can sit down aface to face and celebrate their servival if "time" did not work its healing magic�

Veterans from opposing army�s to meet 50 years after a WWII is not the same as OM and cuckold meeting up.

War is nation against nation, impersonal.

Affair is man against man, personal.

You sound as a man that has been beaten down post affair because your decision to go for CS has kept OM in your life with continued contact with your WW and now are to tired to work for NC.

�i will state right here, right now that the harley's are much wiser, have dealt with far far more cases similar to ours, done much more research on the topic and have had more information then i to form there opinions and priciples..�

The point is to keep people such as yourself from wasting space and time trying to berate me for my opinions if they differ somewhat from teh harley's.

"What is the point of this baloney?"

this is the only baloney line i have read

"One does not have to be shot with a gun to know gun�s will kill after seeing people shot a lot of times"

and a male pediatrician may know the ins and outs of child birth but doesn't have a clue to the "real" life feelings of that incredible event. where does that apply to our situation

"Have you not read here how WS�s exposed to parents affairs even at younger ages wound up being wayward themselves as adults"

Not only have i read it i have lived it. My w's grandfather was a wh and her mother was a ww.

that doesn't mean that my children will be wayward's. they have the free will that God gave us to make better choices. they can follow their mother or they can follow my example.

"She understands that what the OM and her mom did must not be that bad because you allowed contact for WW and contact for DD with the OM. A child�s logic is simple and direct. She see�s your approval of OM being in your family after the affair."

nice try to twist this. but sorry. what she understands is that her bio is being responsible for his dumba$$ choices. She understands that her daddy had the choice to except her or not. and i have. she understands that her daddy does not fear her bio

she understands that her mom fights for her and loves her. she understands that when she is having trouble going for a visitation her mom is there for her. she understands that her mom tells om when he can and csn not have her when there is a conflict.

ftr her communication is strictly business. oc is sick and doesn't want to go this weekend. she has to be at soccer at this time. no you can't take her today b/c whatever.

where is all the truth and honesty i hear you talking about all the time? here we are being honest about our oc's heritage from the outset so we won't have to deal with the when and how of telling her later in life or any negative ramifications of her feeling lied to for 15, 18, or 22 years and you're still griping.


"Because you know that for you to tell others to follow your steps would be wrong."

no,, b/c i know that each situation has its own perticular circumstances and individuals who all deal with things differently. what works for one may not work for another

"War is nation against nation, impersonal"

wrong again my good man, while nations may engage in war don't be fooled into thinking that battle is not between individuals. very very personal

"I�ve seen breaking NC years later cause to many affairs to re start.'

this may be true but what you don't know is that for Me if this ever entered my life again with this woman i would be gone in a blink of an eye. i would have no feelings of being inadaqucate or self doubt. i understand that the problem would lie in my w not me.

you see there road i refuse to live in fear that my w will start up again with om. if she wants him she knows she can have him. i don't even concern myself with those thoughts. trust me there is no fog in my head. i am very clear about where i am and where i stand with my w

"You sound as a man that has been beaten down post affair because your decision to go for CS has kept OM in your life with continued contact with your WW and now are to tired to work for NC"

actually i walk very tall in my 5"9" frame. om is in our life b/c that's where i wanted him. like i said before right where i can see him. i never insisted on complete nc.

having been thru a split home raising my oldest i know quite clearly what types of contact are acceptable or not.

what i see is that you are a man that is uneasy with anyone that has been able to make life work throuugh one of these tramatic situations.

from my perspective life for a bh who wants to work thro his marriage with his w is much different and brings a different set of challenges then with a wh. a bh has to see the oc every day so the "reminder" of teh om is always in his face.

he greats it everday with a hug and a kiss. he puts her to bed every night with a hug and a kiss and a prayer. he holds her when she is ill and affraid of teh thunder. he is there for her 1st day of school, back to school night, he coachs her soccer team even tho om has to bring her to every other game, and he does it without fear standing tall. he will be there when she graduates hs, when she gets married and when she has her own children God willing.

he will teach her compassion, forgiveness, class, character and to be a lady

I would love to continue this debate but maybe on a separate thread.

my purpose here is to show that there are more then one path to walk but that each path brings with it its own separate potholes

Pops and Road,

I'm a newbie here, but I am also a spiritual person, and I believe what we're dealing with isn't flesh versus flesh but darker forces that want to destroy one of the most blessed covenants--the cov of M. When the family is broken, we become easy targets for Satan. Thus for me I have to be extra wary of any opportunity where Satan could attack my M. I used to feel bad for the OM, want "closure"--until I realized it was Satan's influence at work. I think that's ultimately the most impt thing we should be on guard against. Don't act out of fear but out of faith.

I def agree that each sit. is unique, but as long as we're prayerful and open to wise counsel I feel that God will give us the truth. That's how I found MB and how I was able to find strength to confess A to my BH. And I will STILL be reliant on God thru this sit. 20 years from now, I'm sure. For me, I know that NC with OM is only option--too many feelings involved to risk C.

On a side note, yesterday I heard a message about "fighting for M." Fighting costs us, hurts us, and changes us. But I admire those who find a WS worth fighting for, for we all need someone who loves us even when we become unlovely.

Pops, I'm wondering if seeing the OC everyday remains a constant reminder of the OM and the A more in your situation simply because OM is still a part of your lives. The reason why I bring this up is because my H doesn't seem to feel this way about our OC. We've had this discussion many times, and he honestly says that our OC doesn't remind him of the OM at all. When he looks at her, all he sees is HIS little girl, because that's what she is. He is the only daddy she's ever known or ever will know. Since we have had no interference from the OM, he has not had to share that role with anyone else, so he feels as though she really is his daughter in every way but the DNA, and having been adopted himself by his stepfather, and having himself raised by three older children from previous relationships, DNA has never been that important to him.

I'm not arguing with your choices here. I think there is no one right answer to the situation. It is tough, and yes, my H and I will have to deal with the issue of trying to explain this situation to our daughter someday. I'm not looking forward to that. But in our situation, with the OM living 3000 miles away, there simply isn't much of a way for her to grow up knowing about all of this.

I think you honestly did what you felt was best for everyone involved. The only aspect of your decision that I question is your W continuing to have C with the OM. I'm sorry, but I think NC is essential for every A in order to truly protect the M and allow healing and recovery to occur. I don't know any exceptions to this particular rule, and almost every A recovery program I've ever seen (including the Harley's) incorporates the rule of NC for life. For me, I know that NC was essential.

writer i believe you are refering to this statement


""""""""""""""" a bh has to see the oc every day so the "reminder" of teh om is always in his face.""""""""""""

Please don't take that statement literally.

your discription of your h is exactly how i feel when i look at grace. i don't "see" om. all i see is my beautiful little girl.

while i may not be the only father she has ever known i AM the only daddy she has and will ever know.

i have said it many times before. she is my child in every sense. i was there teh day she was born, her 1st tooth, words, steps, birthdays, day of school, all her soccer games, Christmas and Easter mornings, halloween, when she is sick, afraid, or just needs a cuddle. and i will be for the rest of my life.

i also would never argue anyones choices on how they deal with this sit. while there are many common symptoms there are also a plethora of choices on how to deal with them

i don't think you should fret telling your oc. i am sure when that time comes you and your h will handle it quite well.

the problem i had was that long before i ran into this snag in my marriage and discovered marriage builders. i had come to the conclusion that it is best for a child to know all his bio parents. this was from talkig with my pastor and also from listening to several child phsycologists on the topic. the reason i was interested is b/c i was dealing with raising a child in a split home. his mom was the queen of b!t(h and it seemed easier for me to walk away. glad i didn't

so i still believe that now. the only thing that should change that is abuse.

do i object to nc. not at all. as i said there are so many different choices and each of us deals with it the best way we can. what is good for you may not work for me and vice versa

wh,,,, you are right. trust in your faith in God and He will lead you thru this. He will guide you to what works best for you and your h.

For me, as an MB forum member without an OC, there is only ONE right choice.



That's it!

WH~ Don't beat yourself up about om still being on your mind. The withdrawal is all a part of the ugly process. My A was a month shorter than yours and it took nearly 2 years of absolutely NC before he stopped entering my mind on a daily basis. All of a sudden one day I realized I hadn't thought about him for 3 or 4 days in a row. Then I'd go weeks, and finally months at a time. I haven't gone a whole year yet. I think having an OC makes it more difficult to completely forget. My, om, and OC's birthdays are all within 2 weeks, which doesn't help.

Hugs....

That's a major encouragement, AD! I'm an emotional gal to begin with, and OM knew exactly how to get to that part of me, but I can only take it day by day. I just want to forget...it's so hard...but your words are a light at the end of the tunnel.

I have been away from MB for a very long time..

May I ask respectfully, TheRoad, do you have an OC in your life?

I do. Not mine, his. Child will be 6 when the flowers start to bloom again in this four season state of mine.

And dear, DEAR Pops.. you remain the epitomy of decency. You are at the top of my list in life-savers that I have met through this ordeal. Your words are examples of experience, not theory.

Experience in these "messes" is the single most valuable resource anyone can ask for.

Original poster...please read the wise words of people who have studied this, and then consider the importance of true life experience. For me, it seems that the answer always comes from a little of both.

Eibrab

AD, you are truly a blessing to so many people!

Minor t/j...hi Eibrab!

No.

And don't have to have one to know that there needs to be NC with the OP.

"""""""""""""And don't have to have one to know that there needs to be NC with the OP."""""""""""""

road that's the type of myopic arrogance that does no one any good.

nothing in this mess is black and white and there is no single answer/set of rules that fits across the board

If NC is good enough for the Harley's even when there is an OC then it's good enough for me. I have yet to see a Harley recommend continued contact when there is an OC.

Also I have to agree with the Harley's when the married couple have been married a short timey and there are no COM and the OC is on the way it's best for the BS to back out and let the OP and WS raise the child as a family.

Otherwise it's the WS and BS to decide whether to recover with an OC. If there is to be recovery then their must be NC.

I have yet to see where a Harley has said so. They have never stated any exceptions unless there is a life and death decision with the OC. Not practicle for 3rd party use then.

Even pops has stated before thst NC after the fact would of been better for him and his WW.

Sometimes C is the option that has to be taken. The reasons are many. It is not right for all..it is not easy.

What do you say to a child who wants to know why mommy cannot ever even say hi to daddy..or stands on the opposite sides of the room at a school play?

NC for affair partners is truly the only option that seems logical. But when you've screwed up and brought a kid into the measure..how do you think this effects that child? Seems to me that this is how personality disorders are developed. At some point, the resulting child has to be considered, event hough I place no more importance on the child than those affected.

Reading a book does not make you an expert.

What's wrong with the truth?

That WW/WH had an affair with OM/OW while married to the BH/BW.

That married people don't have BF/GF when married. They don't go on dates with OM/OW.

That if an affair happens there must be NC after the affair forever so that the affair never restarts again.

That they do not want to cause their BS furhter pain from having continued contact with the OP.

Continued contact only causes more pain.

The reason is that you are an OC.

The reason is that birth control must be used. ( I think AP's don't use protection because the OP going bareback let's them brag on the next higher level look at me look at what I'm doing to the BS spouse, the WS look how much I want to prove that I don't respect my BS I'm doing the OP bareback )People have to act responsible when having SF.

An OC and the consequences of an affair, means that the OC is loved and wanted but because the adults did not act mature this is the way things have to be done now to protect the adults.

Once the OC is an adult they can decide who they want to do as relationships with the WS, BS, OP.

Simple.

No blaming, no justifiying, no WW was a hoe, no WH was a dog, no OP was a theif, sneak, no the AP's were banging their brains out.

And the best part:

No lying.

When kids are given the truth they will be able to handle difficult situations correctly and will grow up with acceptance and be well balanced.

Can't beat the truth with a stick.

Well, if people were acting responsibly, there wouldn't have been an Affair in the first place. It's never responsible to cheat on your spouse, whether you use protection or not. A's are not about responsibility. They are about selfishness and generally require a whole lot of reckless abandonment, which IMO, is why birth control is generally not a consideration.

Then why when do husbands and wives take care to to use protection?

Don't they worry about that it's not the right time to have a kid?

What about the OW/OM that is never going to leave their BS, what goes through their mind?

Does the OM never care that he will never be part of OC life?

Does the WW never care that she commits paternity fraud on her BH, and how does she live with this secret?

See, you're putting way more thought into this than the waywards are likely to at the time. That's my point. When you're caught up in an A, you just don't think about all this stuff.

I can't answer for anyone else, but in my case, I just wasn't thinking at all. I was living completely in the moment. Affair's generally require what is, in fiction, termed as a willing suspension of disbelief, meaning that I simply wasn't thinking about the consequences of my action because I was living in a fictional reality that I had accepted as concrete and real, even though it was neither of those things. In this reality, my actions had no consequences, or if they did, they were only good ones. In my mind, it didn't matter if I got pregnant, since the OM and I were going to be together and we would just raise the child together like a happy family. I really believed that's how it was going to happen, so I just didn't worry about it.

As far as the OM goes, I think he was pretty much thinking the same thing. I don't think it really occurred to him, until much later, that he had conceived a child whose life he would not be a part of.

And I never deceived my H about the paternity of our OC, so I can't answer to that. My H knew from the very beginning that our OC couldn't possibly be his biologically.

W1

"I was living in a fictional reality that I had accepted as concrete and real, even though it was neither of those things. In this reality, my actions had no consequences, or if they did, they were only good ones. In my mind, it didn't matter if I got pregnant, since the OM and I were going to be together and we would just raise the child together like a happy family."

Not to make this personal. But don't spouses feel this way?

If so then why do they take pains to avoid unwanted pregnancies?

Don't AP's worry about timing, finishing school, pursuing a career, money to raise an child?

I don't understand what you mean by "don't spouses feel this way?"

W1

"I was living in a fictional reality that I had accepted as concrete and real, even though it was neither of those things. In this reality, my actions had no consequences, or if they did, they were only good ones. In my mind, it didn't matter if I got pregnant, since the OM and I were going to be together and we would just raise the child together like a happy family."

To add this what did you expect your COM to do when you left your BH to be with the OM?

Oh, well, OM and I had this terrific fantasy that my H would move out of the marital home and he would move in (well, that was OM's fantasy at least. I was rather horrified by it) and then we would all be one happy family.

At the time, my COM were all teenagers (13-18). I'm sure moving dad out and moving substitute dad, POSOM, in would have went over real swell.

I told you I wasn't thinking very clearly.

If AP's are going to live happily ever after so the don't care about a pregnancey then
When spouses ( no affair ) are feeling the same why don't they not care about unplaned a pregnancey, after all their in love as well.

Not laughing at you now or back then but I find it funny that a WW can rationalize that her teenage COM would accept the OM.

W1, thanks for the exchange.

I think the difference is that a marriage occurs in the realm of reality. You are dealing with finances and day-to-day life and such. An affair occurs in la-la-land, where none of the realities of daily life exist.

writer1..you put it into words that are understandable. It may not make sense to someone not involved in it, but it does make the mindset of someone in an A a bit more apparent.

TheRoad, you seem to be very interested in the dynamics here..again, I say that respectfully. It is, indeed, one of the hardest things anyone could ever go through.

Your post where you suggest the truth is correct in a perfect world. But it isn't reality. It is a rare person who is going to admit to their child the things you want OC's parents to. If you tell them how wrong their conception was, but how much they are wanted..well, that doesn't work in a child's mind.

More often, the child ends up blaming the betrayed spouse for his/her parents not being together. Sure, the bio-parents could prevent this, but more often than not, there is some bitterness on one side or the other.

C is really a hard situation..and like I said, people do it for many reasons.

Honestly, I am not an OW with an OC..as I said, it was my H's A that brought me here.. but if I was in the original poster's shoes, I'd not allow the presumed parternity of child to be her husband's to be challenged. If I am not mistaken, some states won't allow an OM to challenge this in a marriage. Is this right? Maybe not..but it is far less confusing to the child.

"Your post where you suggest the truth is correct in a perfect world. But it isn't reality."

No the reality is that there is nothing better then the truth, and especially in a world with all it's blemishes.

"It is a rare person who is going to admit to their child the things you want OC's parents to."

If they cared about doing right then they should of not had an affair. If they cared about their OC they would tell her the truth and use the opportunity to use the affair as a lesson about right and wrong. Life, choices, consequences, the way life has to be now because of the past. Tell the OC that they are not to be blamed. The Blame is to be placed on the adults. How the OM was wrong to have a relationship with a married woman that was not free to start a family with him. How the WW was wrong for her part.

"If you tell them how wrong their conception was,"

Not tell them they were wrong. The affair was wrong however some times good comes out of the wrong, in this case them the OC.

"but how much they are wanted..well, that doesn't work in a child's mind."

Yes it does it explains how they came to be, that they are good not eveil, and that to protect the family the OP must be bannished from the family hence NC.

"More often, the child ends up blaming the betrayed spouse for his/her parents not being together."

Have not seen stats on that. But the lesson taught is that sex should not happen outside of a marriage. That when things are done wrong there will be consequences that have to be faced. That consequences extend past the quilty people but to the innocent family members as well. That's why the OC is taught NC is for WW, BH for life but as an adult the OC can have any relationship that they chose to have with the OM.

"Sure, the bio-parents could prevent this, but more often than not, there is some bitterness on one side or the other."

So what. Affair's are forgiven not forgotten. An affair can never be undone an OC never unborn a WS and a BS be unmarried.

What has been done, has been done.

Your position is to ignore sound advice about NC and to sweep the dirt under the rug instead of cleaning out the house. This is why parents that were WS tend to have kids that were WS because instead of teaching that the WS was wrong, every thing is swept under the rug with no outward consequences.

Break the cycle with the truth. Or condem the next generation to be repeat offenders.

'nuff said.

Sorry to t/j your thread, original poster.

I wish you well in this ordeal.

Eibrab

Folks,

Been reading along. Pops said This is so true. Harley states that he often recommends that the WW leave her H and marry the OM if the child is the first/only child. Yet he is in the marriage building business. He also counsels folks in that situation to try and save the marriage.

Doesn't sound very black or white to me. Pops and his W have contact with OM for some very good and important reasons and all would say that many times it would have been better with NC, but not to accomplish what Pops needed to accomplish back in the day.

However, for most people that want to try and save the marriage NC is THE WAY to do it and probably the most painless way (if I could use such a term in this situtation.)

Of all of the situations, ones involving an OC are by far the hardest to deal with, adjust to, and figure out to do.

By the way listen to AD she is a special woman and does understand this situation very well having lived through the OC issue herself as Writer1 has done but is not as far down the road.

God Bless You All.

JL

"""That when things are done wrong there will be consequences that have to be faced. That consequences extend past the quilty people but to the innocent family members as well. That's why the OC is taught NC is for WW, BH for life but as an adult the OC can have any relationship that they chose to have with the OM."""

The problem here is that the real lesson taught is that the innocent has been punished for the actions of 2 quilty people

Road,, with your philosophy of truth and honesty then NC seems to go against your own beliefs.

wouldn't truth mean that you take the facts:

1 - oc has 2 bio parents
2 - children should know their parents

so if a wayward wants to stay in his marriage then contact would be a given

aren't those the facts?

yes there was a time when i said that nc may have been the better path. but that was not for me it was because i had empathy and compassion for what my w was going thru.

to lessen the stress in "her" life, "oc's" life and thus "my" life i even offered to allow the om to walk away and never look back in our direction. always against what i believe to be the right thing for us

i still believe that truth, therfore contact, is the true best way in the long run for me

that does not mean that i disagree with those who choose nc. if that is best for them then i support it whole heartedly

pops

What is wrong with teaching a child the actions of one or a few can ruin things for many/ every one else?

I never said that the OC should never know the bio OD (other dad). I said that she has to wait until she is 18.

I remember you stating that you went after the OM for CS as your main reason. Then you wishing you never had because you don't want to deal with OM any more.

Is this why you backed away from dealing with the OM on OC drop offs and the such. Dumping this on your WW?

You demanded CS and were willing to handle contact with the OM so your WW could have NC.

No wonder why you have stated in the past that your WW has regretted letting you go after the OM for CS. It has forced her hand to break NC with the OM because you have dumped your part of the agreement to handle contact with the OM and left dealing with the OC and OM your WW job now.

This is from post #244783 made today under Surviving An Affair..

TheRoad..how many times have you been a BS with an OC?

How many times have you been a WS with an OC?

Eibrab

Sometimes threads go off topic, called a thread jack.

If you want to dicuss something I said on another thread keep it there. This is way past thread jacking.

I have apologized for the thread-jacking previously. This past post, however, has validity for the content of this thread.

I have asked two valid questions that the original poster should know. I would appreciate a respectful answer, as the questions are asked respectfully.

Eibrab

wanthealing, I am catching up on your thread, but wanted to add that Dr Harley absolutely does not advocate mutual agreement to continue an affair!! There should be no contact FOR LIFE with your OM. That is not negotiable. Your "desire for closure" is bullcrap and should be heeded. Only complete and total no contact for life will suffice.

Every contact with the OM will put you back to day 1 of recovery and will devastate your husband. Your affair was the cruelest act you could have ever committed against him. EVery contact is another knife in your H's back. Don't do that to him. You are lucky he will even tolerate you, so don't push it.

Maybe someone else posted this, but in case you haven't seen this, here is what Dr Harley advises:

Ya know, I see alot of very dangerous advice being given on a thread where a newcomer came to get advice for her marriage. Dr Harley is VERY CLEAR that no contact with the OP is absolutely essential for recovery of the marriage. That is very, very black and white throughout his writings and has been for YEARS.

If anyone wants to push their own personal philosophies on the Marriage Builders forum, I would advise them to read the announcement forum and Dr Harley's comments in the mission statement at the top of each page and remind them that the purpose of this forum is MARRIAGE BUILDERS:

here

and from the mission statement:

A reminder to posters to stick to Marriage Builders concepts or refrain from posting. The purpose of this forum is to help others with Marriage Builders and we ask that you don't interfere with that goal.

I don't want to see this thread disrupted any more with personal agendas.

Thank you.

Dear Melody, that info gives me a lot to think about. Thanks for finding that. I just wish I could guarantee that OM will stay away. I agree that closure is selfish and not possible; I've been staying rigid with the POJA so that I never hurt my BH again. I can't bear to lose him. If any good can come from my A it's that our love truly has been rekindled in a fresh way. It's been years since we were "in love," but we've found it amidst the mess I made.

Does anyone know if most OCs forgive WW for keeping OC from OM? I'm just worried my OC will one day hate me for fighting so hard to keep OM out...

I would be more concerned about ruining her life with the collapse of your marriage caused by the presence of the OM. It is in her best interest to maintain a happy marriage with your husband for her security and well being. She is more likely to hate you if she has to endure a broken home. Divorce devastates children.

There are a couple of adult OC's that post her from time to time who typically have nothing but love for their [bh] "fathers" and either friendship with their Bio-dad's or disdain for their bio-dad's.

Kaylandy comes to mind.

Mr. Wondering

p.s. - Writer asked awhile back what eventually happened in that KY paternity case that was discussed a few years ago here. The OM lost just as I predicted. After losing at the Supreme Court level in a split decision he then undertook a campaign to have the law changed in KY. There was a bill that was introduced regarding father's rights in KY that initially had support until a Pro-family organization got on the bandwagon and had the bill killed before it even got out of committee. OM is stuck waiting until his bio-child turns 18 before he can contact him. Last I saw...his website is still up "exposing" his shameful behavior for the world to see.

That was a good thread. A lot of issues got aired. A good opportunity to think through the issues.

Here's a couple quotes from our friend KaylaAndy (from the ky paternity case thread):

Good to know. I don't think the OM in my case would try to cause problems, but it is a comfort to know that the law would likely be on our side if he did. I think that's especially true in my case, since the OM hasn't been in the picture at all for the first 2 years of her life and my H has. My H is the only father she has ever known.

Dr Harley talks about telling the OC in this article:

here

Wanthealing,

Does anyone know if most OCs forgive WW for keeping OC from OM? I'm just worried my OC will one day hate me for fighting so hard to keep OM out...

Can't speak for others, but I am an OC, and yes I wished I knew the truth earlier in my life. It would have been nice to see my bio-Mother instead of her grave stone, and to have seen my bio-Father a few more times than I did.

I do resent that my adoptive parents were offered a settlement from bio-Father and turned it down. To cover OC, should you end up in poverty or divorced, when OC wants to go to college get something for OC from OM NOW!

Also get a collection of photos and other information about OM for OC, so that OC will have an identity and a heritage.

God Bless
Gamma

WantHealing,
If you are on this site to save your marriage, then follow Dr. H's principles and DO NOT contact OM for any reason.

Gamma

How old were you when you found out?

At what age do you think you should of been told you were a OC?

How did you find out?

I don't know your story, but was it possible your parents feared losing you. Especially if you were their only child. And it is said there's more people wanting to adopt then babies available.

Moderator's edit: personal attack.

Please contact a moderator for clarification.

I'm disappointed in this moderation. My post was general and was not directed at anyone specifically by name or insinuation. That being said, maybe it wasn't the best way to communicate so I'm sorry if I came across the wrong way. I'd like to try again:

Imagine the following situation- a MM has a one night stand with a single woman resulting in a pregnancy. He confesses to his wife who graciously agrees to forgive him. Together they decide they'd like to raise OC. The woman delivers the baby 9 months later. Prior to checking out of the hospital, the woman falls asleep. While the woman is sleeping, MM checks the baby out of the hospital himself and brings him/her home with him.
After discovering what's happened, the woman contacts the police. The police tell her that because the legal standard is 'what's best for the child', there is nothing they can do as the mother of the baby is MMs W in the eyes of the law. Furthermore, the police admonish her that if she is caught trying to contact the child, she can expect to be arrested.
Finallly, MM comes to this forum admitting that he feels guilty for stealing the baby away from his/her mother.

Can anyone honestly say that they would give the same advice prevelant on this thread?

Here is the difference, as I see it. The MM's wife probably had no contact with the OW throughout the pregnancy. If he's serious about saving his marriage, neither did the MM. They did not take part in this pregnancy at all and had no connection (other than MM's DNA) with the unborn child. Then, they just suddenly show up at the hospital and take off with the child. In the scenario, I don't even see where a DNA test was performed to prove MM WAS the father of the child, and usually one wouldn't be done until after the child was born. Since the OW may not have even put his name on the BC, and MM wasn't married to HER, he has no legal rights whatsoever to this child at the time that he removes it from the hospital, so his actions would be considered kidnapping.

In my case, my H was very involved throughout my entire pregnancy. He went to my ultrasounds. We picked out names together. He was there when the baby was born. OM did none of those things. My H became a father to our OC by being there for her throughout the pregnancy. Did the MM or his BW in your scenario do that?

Give me a break! It is not the same thing no matter how you rework the scenario.

I hope it didn't come across like I was agreeing with her, because I most certainly was not.

Of course it's not the same.

A woman's H is considered the legal father of any child born into the marriage. The only way to change that is if the OM challenges paternity, and in order to do that, he would have to go to court.

In faithcontender's scenario, the MM has no legal rights to the child whatsoever. DNA has not been established. When a single woman gives birth, she is the only one who has legal rights to her child until she puts a name down on the BC or signs legal documents naming the father of the child or a paternity test is done to establish the identity of the bio father. The MM wouldn't be allowed to remove the child from the hospital in the first place, because nothing has been done to establish his paternity.

Please contact a moderator if you have queries about an editing decision. Do not start an argument or a discussion about possible situations on the thread of someone seeking urgent help.

Sorry writer, I was referring to the poster faithcontender, not you!

**************EDIT***************

I am reposting my previous reminder for those who missed it.

********EDIT***********


STOP!!

faithcontender,,,,,,i understand the question you are asking as the moral issue of:

"isn't what's good for the goose, good for the gander?"

the simple answer to the morality of the question is, yes.

BUT

the problem faced by those here is not simply a moral issue it is how to save a marriage after the stinky stuff has hit the fan

the morality was thrown out the window with the act of adultery. then complicated by marriages, COM and the conception of a child

those additiional factors throw a whole ton of people and scenerios into the pot

this forum is to help those struggling with this issue rebuild and save their marriage. that is where the advice and principles referred to here come into play.

Awesome post, pops!!!

I didn't see the edited material earlier in the thread, but I'm the newbie FWW who originally posted this thread. And so far I've been doing everything Dr. Harley suggests: repentance, exposure to my BH (but not to anyone else yet, at my BH's request), NC, and now working on 15 hours of quality time...but because there's an OC, I'm still stuck in this dilemma of the OM. We're dealing with court now re his rights vs my BH's rights re OC, and it's hard on our M. We're so worried about being forced to share custody, which will not work for my BH. He's not willing to share OC. So...then what? How can we stop that from happening? I'm desperate to protect my BH from a life dealing with results of my sin.

I just re-read your thread. OM performed his own DNA test, but when he petitioned the court for paternity, his claim was denied.

It sounds as if there has been no court-ordered DNA test. Is that right?

Does your lawyer think that OM has grounds for the appeal to succeed? You cannot just win an appeal because you don't like the result. If the lower court said (in effect) that an outsider has no right to force a DNA test on a married couple, and that the married man is the legal father of the child, then the higher court would have to have a legal reason to change this decision. Ask your lawyer what that legal reason would have to be. Would there be a higher court to which you could appeal, if you lost?

Either the law that says that a married man is the father of the COM must be upheld, or that law must be changed. I don't see how judge can change the law in his courtroom.

But I'm British. I know nothing about laws in your states, but your lawyer should be able to reassure you.

You do not know what "shared custody" would mean in practice. it might mean the typical every-other-weekend plus one night a week that bio fathers get, or it might mean less because your child is so young. Respectfully, don't think your H can know what he would do until he receives a court order. I imagine that he would find it very hard to walk away from a child that he has grown to love, so please don't panic.

This is an awful situation for you to be in, but I think you can only take legal advice now and wait for a decision. You shouldn't believe that the worst-case scenario has already come about.

Keep being the best wife you can be for your H, and of course, maintain NC with OM.

Thanks for your encouragement, SC!

I shouldn't be focused on worst-case, since I never imagined my BH would forgive me and he did!

Also, you are correct--no court-ordered test yet, thus the OM has no legal rights to OC yet. The presumption is that my BH is the father since we're married, but OM can contest it due to the PA. My atty says this whole scenario is unprecedented, so my atty can't give me answers one way or the other. So I'll take your advice and just focus on the good and on my BH and have faith that it will all work out.

You need a new lawyer this is not an unprecedented case. Cases like this have happened across the US already. As to our limey friend our law is based on English common law so the advice that they gave was correct.

Another reason to fire your lawyer. A person from another country can give better answers then him.

want,

As TheRoad says, this is not unprecedented in your country. There was a case discussed at length here on this forum. It caused huge dissent, because some people, of course, believe that a bio father has the same rights over his child as a bio mother. They felt that the FWW did not have the moral right to keep the child from its father, OM, using the marriage as a barrier.

It is an argument that you might want to read about, but it should not be interjected on your thread by someone who thinks you are doing something immoral.

The judge is a previous case disallowed an access claim from OM, saying that in a marriage, the H is the father. Only the legal H could context paternity. OM technically did not exist.

Your lawyer needs to know about that case. I know your laws vary from state to state, but that judgement must have been based on a common legal principle, I should think. Depending on how far it went, it might even have established and clarified the existing law, meaning that your judge is bound to follow it.

I will search for the thread and bump it, later. I take it, meanwhile, that you have read the thread "First and Foremost", recently bumped on this forum?

What state are we talking about here???


It may very well be "unprecedented" in her state (which is better than the majority of states where the common law "paternity presumption" has been altered in favor of OM's by the Legislatures and Courts of that state). As I recall, about 33 states give bio-fathers a few or many rights whereas only 9 still maintain the "presumption" and protect marriage/families. The remaining others, as I recall, haven't addressed the issue at all in the Supreme Court of that state nor in their legislature.

In general, (meaning MOST of the time but now all the time)....OM's eventually give up and somewhat gladly walk away from their bio children without a fight. They may push at the beginning to make appearances and you certainly must carefully plan to protect your legal interests but stand firm and MOST OM's will back down.

Later...if he doesn't, you MAY offer up some kind of settlement that works for him AND you all (the OC included). Neither you nor him likely wants an all out push for a protracted and EXPENSIVE legal battle. The family in the Kentucky case that was discussed here at length had a unique situation....an unrelenting and abusive OM versus a family of lawyers. The BH and the grandfather were both experienced litigators. The grandfather practical fought the whole case...because of this they had the ability to stand firm on opposing the OM in all instances and at whatever cost.

You aren't likely in that position and if OM presses it and successfully jumps many hurdles (not giving up and walking away) you will likely have to settle (this also depends on the laws in your state). At that point you MAY have to make some accommodations regarding visitation. At least you'll get some child support out of the matter and perhaps reach an agreement whereupon bio-dad gets visitation for 2-4 weeks every summer after the child reaches the age of 5 or some other manageable settlement insuring very limited contact btwn him and you (and your family). You can start VERY SMALL and negotiate up from there. It's not like bio-dad/sperm donors in these situations are ever going to get every other weekend and Wednesday evenings.

Mr. Wondering

an update on the Kentucky case...

It appears the OM has FINALLY taken all the blogs and websites down and is no longer harassing his ALLEGED bio-son's family.

Mr. W

""""""""""""""""It's not like bio-dad/sperm donors in these situations are ever going to get every other weekend and Wednesday evenings.""""""""""""

that is what om got in our case along with alternating certain holidays

Please remind us, pops,

Was her age a factor in this arrangement? Was you daughter still a baby when this went to court?

want,

I said I would bump the thread, but I've just looked at it as it is a messy argument. I don't think that the arguments on the thread will necessarily be useful to you.

From what I can see, this was a case decided in Kentucky in around April 2008. The judge threw out a call by OM to have a DNA test.

Your lawyer should be able to look up the case and see whether its outcome would be useful to your case.

Pops, in your case you were okay with joint custody though, right?

My BH's question is: Does a BH have no rights? He is the victim, so how can any court order a paternity test against the BH's wishes? Or does he have no rights, and only the OM has rights? If that's the case, it seems like any Joe Shmoe could contest paternity and potentially ruin a family just because he feels like it...

This went the way it did for pops beause pops didn't just open the door for the the OM, pops torn down the whole wall and gave the OM access to the OC and to intrude in his families life.

Because pops placed more importance on money then NC.

The law of presumption, based on that the BH is the dad because no one could prove paternity. The courts logic was that what is best for the family as a whole guided their decision.

That the parents were better off to stay together with the COM and OC as one family unit.

Now science has made proving paternity possible it has forced the law makers and courts to change how things are being done.

Basically the BH has two years to question paternity an disown the OC and not be stuck for CS.
I don't know the time frame OM have to contest paternity, but I would think it be no more then what a BH has.

Yes the BH is a "victim" he didn't do anything. But half the blame has to go to the WW. And the OM can try to blame everything on the WW and paint himself as the victim as well.

OM can claim the WW was the agressor.
OM can claim WW said she was infertile,
had her tubes tied,
she said she was on the pill,
had an IUD.
OM can claim WW said she was separated and filed for a D.
OM can claim WW was going to marry OM and wanted a family with him soon as divorce was final.
OM can claim WW said she wasn't married.
OM can claim as many things as he is smart enough to claim.

Now depending on a bunch of individual circumstances along with proof the OM is the bio dad courts can start protecting bio dad rights. Say when an unmarried couple dating split and she's pregnant she can't deny access to the bio dad.

This single girl can't claim she never had sex with her boyfriend, well she can but DNA will prove she's lying.

Just as with a WW can't claim there was no affair, no sex with the OM when DNA says different.

I agree & thought the same thing after refreshing myself on that thread.

Want, I have no idea what the presumption of paternity is in your state but your H has a good argument in my opinion. I think your lawyer really needs to take a look at what went on & what the arguments were in that Kentucky case. It could give him some ideas on argument. Sounds like he needs it if he thinks this situation is unprecedented. It's becoming more & more common as the days & years go by. Our society has become so....brazen.

Google Julie N. Ricketts vs. James Rhoades or Kentucky Supreme Court Ricketts vs. Rhoades. You'll find YouTubes of all parts of the oral arguments.

Here's a link to the Times article on it (I think this is it as I didn't have time to read it all): Time article

This may take you & your H doing your homework too. Good luck.

4eva

Thanks for the info, 4eva! We're definitely doing our homework, but it doesn't seem like enough...

http://letmeseemyson.blogspot.com/

If I remember there were lots of pictures and some videos of OM, WW, and OC together in motel room and park. Along with a lot of text.

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2057955&page=1

There are at least 29 pages of posts. I not going to read them now but if I remember the OM had a DNA test done on his own before WW decided to end the affair and go NC with the OM for her and the OC.

Being her BH and FIL were lawyers, has always made me feel if this pushed her to recover instead of divorce. Two lawyers working overtime, to hound her for CS, no visitation, loss of marital home, loss of an affluent life style married to an attorney, total financial ruin. The damage to her COM because their family fell apart.

the baby was just that a baby, about 8 months or so when the court stuff started. by the time the court order was finalized om had his 1st visit just before she turned 2.

yes i am ok with our custody order

in Ca there are 2 clasifications when it comes to custody. one is legal and the other is custodial

we have primary custodial and joint legal.

custodial means the oc lives with us and om can have court appointed visitations

legal means he can have the b-cert changed and add his name if he wants. right now there is no one listed and he hasn't changed it in 7 years

also in Ca your h has no say in the court procedings. only what fh and discussed and decided together with her attorney. not sure what your state laws are.

when fh went to the court mediator it was the mediator her and om only

i would not recommend my choices to anyone. it was a long bumpy road and not for the faint of heart.

in your situation i would recommend that you stay the MB course if at all possible.

keep in close contact with your attorney. if he isn't giving you the answers you want interview others. and force om to press the legal issue

no matter what some may think there was much much more than money that went into the choices we made. if they were here 10 years ago they would know that

Thanks for you reply, pops. I think OP will find this helpful.

I don't like the way you have been accused of putting money first. I don't think financial gain was the motive. I've read and understood (I think) your concerns for your daughter's future. Also, I don't think that parents who have not read Harley would know how do do this - any more than I knew about exposure, Plan A, Plan B, changing jobs and NC letters when I first faced my H's affair.

I think, though, you are right to caution about following your path. Your right to CS gave OM his right to access, and this has affected the whole family.

New posters need to consider the positives and negatives of CS. It comes at a price.

I agree. Pops did the best HE knew how at the time. Thank you for posting that you would not recommend your solution. It IS a rough road and I know you and FH have struggled over it. You are a good guy, pops.

When I told OM I was P and wanted to stay with my BH, I said point blank, "You come after the child for any parental rights and/or visitation, I will come after you for CS." He was such a cheapskate, and probably didn't want family and friends to know of the A, (though he was single), that was enough to scare him away, as it seems to be with most OMs. People in affairs, are usually just in it for a 'free good time', not to be strapped with a kid. I'm sure he moved on to the next married woman, and never looked back.

I sometimes feel badly I said that to him in that way... like blackmail or whatever, but IF he really WANTED to know the OC, nothing I said would've stopped him.

This worked for me too. The OM in my case definitely didn't want his ex-wife or his two teenage daughters to know about the OC, so I had a lot of leverage.

When you dumped the OM did BH know you had a PA and were pregnant?

In my case OM is relentless. Nothing seems to deter him. I'm at my wits' end!

Have you change cell and email.

Block OM on FB, better yet get rid of FB.

Restraining order?

Don't remember do you still work or live near OM?

I think you're talking about his court case, aren't you? Your'e saying that you cannot get him to drop this.

You're not saying that he keeps phoning or trying to contact you?

Your thread is becoming muddled because so many separate discussions have spun off from it. We should try to stick to advising you about your situation here, and not discussing other people's.

Right, the NC is working. We only "talk" through lawyers right now, which my BH handles. OM is only relentless about pursuing rights to the OC. My BH and I are terrified that he'll get joint custody. I only wish that the threat of CS would work to keep him away.

The one good thing is that my M has somehow gotten better after all of this. My BH and I are getting through this fire stronger than ever. Praise God something good could come out of all of the pain!

Have you any idea when the next hearing will be?

Have you mentioned the Kentucky case to your lawyer?

I'm glad to hear that your marriage is recovering. Don't despair about custody. OM has already lost one court case so he is not in a strong position. He feels strongly about his rights, but he needs good legal grounds to win.

Why did the first judge reject his case? Did he say that an outsider has no right to demand a DNA test?

Yes have you cited the cases mentioned here to your lawyer?

Also OM may not want anything to do with custody. Using fighting for custody to break NC, and to keep driving a wedge into your marriage so your BH gives up and throws in the towel is the OM's plan.

How good is the OM's income and job stability?

Depending on how well he can or can't afford to pay CS may just chase the OM away.

Also factor in the OM's cheapness level as well.

wanthealing, is this you on the radio last Tuesday?

here

The other man wants joint custody.
Tuesday, December 07, 2010
FIRST: Jenny says she has been married for 8 years with no children. Recently she had an affair with an old love and became pregnant as a result. The child is now 5 months old. The other man wants joint custody. Jenny says her husband is controlling, and she fears the contrast effect may have hurt any chance of fixing her marriage.

Wow! The Harleys sure dealt with her with kid gloves. She sounds unremorseful and complaining about his controlling before the A and the Harleys just went right along with it saying he should be her number 1 fan! Only 5 months after she perpetrated the most horrific treachery a woman could ever inflict on a man!

I thought they advised that if the the marriage is short, no kids, and the spouses are young to run like hell! The woman on the broadcast sounds entitled and unremorseful. She is going to create a lifetime of pain for her poor husband.

Melody what was your take on this? Same as chipep?

I thought her H was only "controlling" because he probably sensed that wanthealing had sloppy boundaries. And he was proven right! As far as the H choosing your friends, a spouse should have a say in the friends we choose because they are also friends of the marriage. I don't have friends my H doesn't like and vice versa.

Dr Harley then says the reason he is controlling is because Jenny doesn't make the best choices. She chooses bad friends and makes bad decisions. Her H's "controlling" could keep her out of trouble. He sort of laughs when Joyce says H is "controlling" and he then infers that of course he is, Jenny doesn't have good judgement.

This can work if a neutral party does exchanges. Can't attend school functions if OM is there. It can work out if you follow the rules.

Dr Harley tries to give ideas so they can restore the love in the marriage: Situation causes H to have AO's. In order for this to work, H is going to have stop being controlling, ie: demands, dj's, and AO's. Part of his problem is that he has been engaged in lovebusters.

First step in overcoming angry outbursts is the recognition that angry outbursts are never caused by others.

I don't think wanthealing is unremorseful from reading her thread. It might not have come through in the call, but it comes through in her thread.

The advice he gave was designed to help her fall in love with her husband. I am guessing that is what her H wants.

Based on the hard stance taken here against cheaters, I was expecting not 2x4's but HEAT rounds fired at this woman. They definitely mollycoddled her. Maybe it's the medium radio vs. website.

But she is on this forum and has not recieved heat rounds. From everything I have read of hers, she is remorseful and very much wants to do the right thing. Dr Harley and Mrs Harley are very perceptive and before Jenny was on the air, they probably exchanged enough emails to convey her sincerity.

Also, Dr Harley rarely gives 2x4's. He DOES, but he does them with an velvet covered fist and you do get the point.

As far as 2x4's, I think BS's get many more on the forum.

MelodyLane a mollycoddler......

She's got more lumber then Abe Lincolns log cabin.

That was me on the radio, though I should explain a couple things. First of all, my e-mail was not read in its entirety. The Harleys focused only on one part of it--the "justification" I had made for falling out of love with my BH in the first place, which was rooted in his controlling behavior. However, certainly there is no excuse...but at the time of my A I felt justified (I selfishly deluded myself).

I wasn't looking for understanding from the Harleys, rather help with how to make sure my BH never has to go through this again. And guidance in how to keep the OM away. The answer the Harleys gave me in protecting my M was simple: to love one another. Show it by eliminating love busters.

Btw, I offered my BH an "out" and I'd let him have everything, but he wanted to stay with me. So we made a commitment that if we chose to stay together through this we would have to start loving each other better. The Harleys re-emphasized how we can do this. Both of us have things we need to work on, but because I sinned greater against my BH, I was trying to make up for my sin by exerting a lot more into loving my BH without reciprocation. But one-sided love leads to a loveless marriage, and we can all see the writing on the wall if that were to continue. That's what the Harleys wanted to nip in the bud.

My repentance was expressed in my original e-mail, though that part wasn't read aloud. I don't think the Harleys had any doubt about my guilt and desire to be a better W. But in case anyone doubts the state of my conscience, I'm not faking sincerity about the grief over my sin against my BH. If I didn't feel bad I wouldn't be on this website doing everything in my power to make sure I am a better W until death do us part. And I make daily effort to show BH love, and he has no regrets for staying with me. Ultimately we're both 100% guilty of our own sins against each other and we need to make daily effort not to hurt one another anymore. MB has guided us through that.

As for 2x4s from the Harleys, I think most adulterers seeking help from MB have already had plenty of 2x4s from BS and others. I don't think a 2x4 answers the problem of how do I make sure I protect my BS from anymore pain...practical changes are what we need guidance on. I've gotten that, my BH has gotten that, and our M is more honest and open and...strangely...better than ever! But we've still got the issue of protecting the unity of our family (re: our OC) and that's the hurdle we are fumbling over right now.

Sorry for being longwinded, but I wanted to make sure I answered the concerns.

Thanks for clarifying, wanthealing, this was my takeaway exactly. I have always felt you were sincere and had no doubt the Harleys perceived the same thing I did.

Am so glad you are getting the book Lovebusters! Would it help if your H came to the forum.

And I have to say I chuckled at the notion of Melodylane the "mollycoddler!"

You would be surprised. WE have many adulterers who show up here, not for help, but for validation in pursuit of their affair or help in keeping it secret from their spouse. Needless to say, they usually end up with a much needed foot up the behind.

I've tried convincing my BH to go on this forum, but he follows mine and sometimes asks me to post questions for him. I'm just glad we're sharing in this learning and growth process. The thing that surprised me most was that he was more upset about sharing OC than about my A. Quite frankly, I didn't get enough 2x4s from him, but I made up for it against myself. I was consumed with guilt for a long time after my BH forgave me, but I had to keep reminding myself that all I can do now is guard against it ever happening again. But I don't want to forget...ever. I hope that every WS never forgets the hurt they've caused their BS. I'll never forget his face the day I fessed up. I've burned that look in my mind and will keep it there forever.

Why don't you sign up BH as Mrwanthealing? Then when he has a question you can post it there. Then he can watch for a reponse. Some MBer's maybe able to draw him out.

wanthealing, I also heard Dr Harley tell you that your H should email him if he has any questions. That is an invaluable resource. The man is brilliant, IMO!

That's a good idea. Thanks!

want, you really need to encourage your h to post here.

from what i heard on the radio segment was that dr harley didn't give your marriage much chance if your h doesn't stop his lb'ing controling attitude completely and soon.

this would be a great place for him to vent/rant and get support when he feels like slipping into that controling state

No, he did not. I told the OM I was P, and ending the A, before I told my BH anything. (Sorry, it took me so long to get back to you, btw, I haven't been back here since I posted that.)

How are you doing wanthealing? I've been thinking of you. That's what brought me here tonight.

Hi, Autumn Day. I truly appreciate your thoughts. Things actually aren't going too well at the moment. I've actually wanted to post about this to get some feedback, since it's been bad at home lately, but I didn't have the heart. But I need to get this out there. Here's the issue:

I've maintained NC with OM. Things with him are only dealt with through lawyers. So no news there. However, my BH seems to HATE me. I don't use that word lightly. Pretty much all of our conversation is about how much I've screwed up his life and how much his parents will hate me once they find out about everything. I think he's depressed, but he refuses to get help. Keep in mind that we have a baby who demands a lot of my time, but I've done everything I can think of to demonstrate love and affection to him and put his needs right up there with the baby's needs. It's a juggling act that I simpy can't handle anymore. I'm barely sleeping so that BH doesn't have to lift a finger around the house, and I'm also working another job so that the lawyer fees don't dip into our savings. We're still in the middle of the court battle, and who knows when it will end. But no matter how much I'm investing in the love bank, my BH has nothing but anger, cuss words, and insults toward me. I know I deserve his anger and lack of trust, but this can't possibly be healthy to raise a child in this environment. And the temptation to go back to OM keeps increasing with each angry outburst (which is daily, even hourly on some days). I will never do that or hurt my BH again even if it kills me, but it's tough to want to stay in a M where you feel despised by your spouse. My BH has never been the emotional type to show affection or say "I love you," but this is just getting borderline abusive. We are all miserable, and for what? But he absolutely does not want me to leave. So...is there any hope for us?

How much longer will this last? Will he ever be able to love me again?

Have you asked your BH to read MB articles or materials?

What has been going on with the legal issues?

17 pages is too much to read so I'm sorry to have to ask again.
Maybe you can use a post script as others do here.

What was the time line of your BH finding out you had an affair, the day NC started, when you were pregnant with OM child, to now?

Why not leave the computer on at MB. This way your BH curiosity may get the best of him and he can fine some Harley articles?

Or as you read an article say to BH there's this story here that is what were going through.

Well - I know for me seeing the child everyday would set me off. Yes I would probably love the child as it is an innocent, but probably hate you because it was not mine. I would probably get over the hate at some point but it would be a long time.

He needs to go to counseling at some point or at least talk with a mentor or something.

Another thing that would annoy me is you running around doing everything in the house. Set some boundaries of your own. Not in a mean way but if you keep going like this all exhausted that's not good either.

Are you guys spending the required UA time? Get someone to watch the baby though. It's important to have that time to communicate and get that connection back.

I agree with the prevoious poster- summarize your story in your tag.

Hello to all,
New to this. Not sure what all the abbreviations mean. My wife and I have been married for 2.5 years. About eight months ago we had a miscarriage, about 3 months ago I found out she was seeing another guy. She met him at work. I was blindsided, I never thought she would do this to me. I'm struggling not to blame myself. Neither one of us handled the miscarriage well. I thought we were trying to move on and trying to get preganant again. And we did try but it didn't happen. I had no reason to believe anything was wrong! Now this thing is so broken I don't know if we will ever get back to where we were. I love this woman so much desptie what she has done. But she still says that she's not in love with me. We can be really passionate one minute and really distant the next. The whole thing is just really exhausting. Trying to convince myself not to throw in the towel. We are trying to work things out. We have only been to counseling once. At first, my wife seemed to be very humbled and wanted forgiveness. Now just a couple of months later, that humbleness is gone. I'm really struggling with this....just trying to hold on.

Hi turnthepage. Please ask the moderators to move your message to the Surviving An Affair forum, or better still - start your own thread there.

This forum is for folks who have children resulting from an affair. I don't think you're THAT far gone, yet.

As for the abbreviations, there is a post in the Notable Posts forum here.

I'm sorry you've had to find your way here. This is the club that nobody wants to join.

But you'll find some incredibly helpful people here. Read all you can from the articles on this site, post your story and get set for the hardest struggle of your life. You CAN do it -- with the help of the folks here.

Good luck, and God bless.

Because this really isn't about the OC anymore, rather it's about surviving the A, I've moved this discussion to the Infidelity/Surviving an Affair thread. I don't know how to put the link to that thread in here--sorry. :}

want, does your H help with the baby?

when we brought oc home i wanted nothing to do with her. felt it was FH's responsibility not mine.

then one day i held her to stop her from crying while FH was taking a shower and i was wrapped around her littl efinger.

once i made th ebond with the oc it helped bring me back to FH. after all the baby was part of her

That's interesting pops. I would be interested to hear how want's BH is with the baby as well.

It was totally different for my BH. He went to my ultrasounds with me when I was pregnant and cut the umbilical cord in the delivery room when she was born. She was definitely HIS little girl before she was even born. He has always done so much with her. He took off 2 weeks after she was born and got up with her at night so that I could sleep and heal from a very physically traumatic birth. He bathed her, changed her diapers, fed her (still does in fact).

But I know everyone handles these situations differently.

I believe that want's BH didn't actually find out about the A and the OM until after the baby was born, but I'm not sure on that one.

You are correct that BH found out afterwards, but even after finding out his feelings never changed. He's been active with her since day 1. BH and OC have a special bond even this early on. She may be cranky all day, then he comes home and she's all smiles. Her face lights up when she sees him. She is 100% daddy's girl. That's why the angry outbursts result--he's scared for that to change.

Want,

How long has it been since your BH found out about your A and that his child is not really his?
It typically takes about 6 months for BS's once they find out about the A to feel safe enough that the WS isn't leaving to be able to feel the emotions, and anger that they need to go through. This doesn't give the BS a right to abuse the WS, however, it is something that they go through. The suggests for your BS reading the MB materials and helping himself heal are very important.

As a BS, whose WH created an OC. Trust me, the pain does not go away in the tiny little amount of time you have given him so far. It is a long process, and far longer with OC than without. REmaining NC and only allowing your attorney to interact with the OM are great steps on your side for helping your BH heal. But he will need more from you for as long as HE needs it. The average A recovery time, to rebuild trust and be successful (if it is going to happen) is two years. With OC, especially one living in the house, you can expect real recovery to be about five years. There are improvements all along the way, but that is how long it takes to be able to look back and not start to cry and feel the pain of the betrayal for most BS's in this situation.

The depth of damage and pain caused by an A cannot even be imagined until it is lived.
Very happily 5 !/2 years into recovery!
Fled

Thanks, Fled. We're about 7 months post-D-day. I've been putting into practice all of the advice Dr. Harley and the wonderful MB advocates on this forum have offered. I've made a lot of changes and my BH has made a lot of changes, and the AO have pretty much ended.

BH says he feels he's healing and I can tell that he's not so stressed about all of the court stuff--he's actually laughing and smiling and enjoying life again. I couldn't believe how effective the advice is; it really helps!

Do you have a relationship with your OC? How is that going? My BH says he's fine with whatever we have to deal with (we're still in court over the paternity--it's not 100% been established yet), but he really wants to know how people with OCs deal with OM in custody arrangements. My BH does not want to have a mediator transport OC and arrange for visits, and BH would like to get along with OM for the OC's sake (I of course would never speak to or see OM again--my BH would have to deal with him), but is that realistic? He just wanted to know what other people have done and what is realistic in a situation like this, since BH cares a lot about OC having a healthy environment--whether with or without OM.

A mediator would be an excellent choice.

POJA this with your H.

BH is VERY protective of OC and doesn't trust a mediator to drive OC around, and BH even may insist on supervising any visits until he can trust OM with OC. But that just seems like it'd be very hard on my BH to have to deal personally with OM like that, knowing what OM did. I know pops dealt with OM regarding his OC, but I don't know what other options we have to make this easier on BH if he doesn't want a mediator.

I know we're jumping the gun on this, since right now we haven't even gotten the official paternity test ordered from the court, but my BH wants to start planning ahead for how we'll deal with this in the best interest of OC.

I do most of the interactions with xOW now. FWH still does most of the p/u's and d/o's but I talk to OW about OC issues and scheduling. It never gets easier for me. Maybe it will for your BH but I pray you are successful in fighting this interloper even having the CHANCE to be in your OC's life.

We do not have C with OC or OW. There are some BH's with OC around maybe they can speak to this. Writer is also a WW with OC, they do not have C either. Emotionally for your BH's sake I would recommend a mediator or maybe another family member that he is comfortable with that could be a go between if it is necessary. The best scenario in my view, is NC between OC and OM, that your OC grow up with you and your BH as the parents without the conflict of the OM if possible.

Fled

When there is no chance of denying the OM his paternity test in your state, have you thought about relocating? (at least officially) As many WS have to leave their job and relocate in order not to see the OP again, might that not be an option? The court in your new state of residence would be responsible then. If you pick a state where the OM has no rights...