What's wrong with an OC and Father relationship?

I know I am extremely naive and new to all of this- I am the OW and got pregnant during an affair. The affair really is completely over and I sincerely hope things work out for his family and children. I've read all the mean things people say about the OW and on the OW's site what they say about the BW. I don't understand the pure hate on either side. The father is currently paying child support, he is trying to work things out in his marriage and I am doing everything possible that the wife wants to make sure they are solid and I don't make things worse. But there is an innocent child and I don't understand why the father can't have a relationship with his child if I am not involved and he doesn't have to see or hear from me.

[ December 03, 2003, 05:45 PM: Message edited by: pointofview ]

Originally posted by pointofview:

I know I am extremely naive and new to all of this- I am the OW and got pregnant during an affair.

That's why you shouldn't date married men. It causes problems.

The affair really is completely over and I sincerely hope things work out for his family and children.

Well, your compassion for his family would have been more impressive if you realized where you did not belong before you started an affair.

I've read all the mean things people say about the OW and on the OW's site what they say about the BW. I don't understand the pure hate on either side.

Seems like *pure hate* is overstating it a bit.

The father is currently paying child support, he is trying to work things out in his marriage and I am doing everything possible that the wife wants to make sure they are solid and I don't make things worse.

Good for you. Better late than never.

But there is an innocent child and I don't understand why the father can't have a relationship with his child if I am not involved and he doesn't have to see or hear from me.

Whatever their reasons are, it is none of your business. Their family decisions, and whatever goes on between them is none of your business.

If they decide NC is what works best for them, then that's the way it is. Whether or not you understand is not the issue.

The issue is, they make their decision and they accept the consequences of their decision.

Just as you made a decision to have a baby with an unavailable man .... you must accept the consequences.

That's the way life is.

Take care of your little one.

Pep

There IS nothing wrong with a father having a R with the OC. But unfortunately, what most posters will say is right. If the family feels NC is what works best for them then that has to be respected. I was OW many yrs ago and felt I was no threat to their marriage but they insisted on NC. At the time and up until very recently (ten years later - talk about dense!) it was nearly impossible for me to understand this until I was in the BW shoes.

You would think that if there is no chance of you wanting to be with MM still it only makes sense to "us" that MM should be in your child's life and I know it hurts like hell that he's not. Believe me I know! But in time the pain will fade and as long as you shower your little one with all your love, I do believe he'll grow up just fine w/o bio dad. Mine did and is.

Not to encourage you to hold out hope but maybe the family needs more time. Perhaps you could just let them know what you would like to happen, assure wife that you are no threat and let them know if they change their minds, they can contact you and leave it at that. Trust me - even if they never hear from you again, they will NEVER forget about you and the baby.

Good luck to you!

I don't understand the pure hate on either side.

Well, think of it this way: you just had your heart violenlty ripped out by 2 people, 1 who is a stranger with no respect for "marriage" the other is 1 who you trusted w/ all your heart and SAID they LOVED you hmmmm....and now the complete stranger wants you to put all your feelings aside and "think of them" and their own family..hmmmmm... Where do you think it comes from? Think of it as your worst enemy calling you up and asking you to baby sit!!!!!!!!!

And because many BS have taken the "high road" and allowed C w/ OC only to be shot down, manipulated, insulted and further injured by OW.....that's where the "pure hate" is coming from. But I haven't seen "pure hate" here, just plain disgust and annoyance w/ whiny, selfish, OW.

The father is currently paying child support, he is trying to work things out in his marriage and I am doing everything possible that the wife wants to make sure they are solid and I don't make things worse.

Have you come straight out and APOLOGIZED to BS and said--point blank--that you were WRONG for what you did? With out any "buts..." just those 2 short sentences would go extremely far to promote good will toward you and your child...if you really are sincere, this should be easy.

And if you don't want to make things worse...then just leave them alone. Why do you want your child to spend only 1/2 thier time w/ each parent, divided between 2 homes, sharing every other holiday and birthday? Sorry for your child but it is a consequence of the situation you and MM made.

But their is an innocent child and I don't understand why the father can't have a relationship with his child if I am not involved and he doesn't have to see or hear from me.

Because we ALL know that you will be involved. Face the fact; BS will have to look @ you, see you when you p/u OC, she will have to see your home when they p/u OC, will have to hear OC talk about you, will have to share OC teacher w/ you,share OC doctor w/ you, will have to talk w/ you to exchange information about OC, will have to share OC friends with you......You don't get it because if you did you would have never put yourself in this situation to begin with. IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO HAVE C W/ OC AND NOT HAVE C W/ OW!!!

I think you know that. Yes, your child IS innocent but so is this BS.

Why are you even here if you are an OW? Are you married, because this is a sight for people who are married and working on their marriage. If you really want to read about "why not?..." then just lurk on some of the other threads and you will find your answer.....OR just violently rip your heart out and then while you try to put it back in with one hand keep slicing it up and pulling it out with the other, that might help you understand a little.

Why don't you give this web site to the BS so we can all support her and her husband in their marriage during this difficult time.

pointofview

Im just curious, what happened that the A is over,are you single or married, In my case I don't hate the Ow,I have never said a bad thing to or about her. It is someone I know and she is also very young ,will be 19 in 2 weeks,just found out she is pregnant. I am commited to my M, would be willing to accept contact with OC,but will not accept private C between my H and her. She does not want anything to do with me it seems as she tells him she knows he probably wont leave his family, but she continues to call him.Ultimately it is up to my H to stop this,but he is not. Just wanted to hear your opinion, maybe to see if I can see your point of view,I often want to talk to her but don't know if it will make a difference.

What they decide is non of your concern. If they have children, they need to take care of them and secure the foundation of the marriage so their family can heal from this.

You speak of the innocent child, assuming s/he is the only innocent one. That is where the logic fails you. The BW and the children from the marriage are innocent victims also. The MM already has a commitment to them and that needs to be addressed first.

As a couple, if they decide that contact with the oc is to much, then the decision is made. In my case, we decided early on that no contact would be our choice. We learned from others in the same situation all did better with no contact. Those who had contact had nothing but drama, and constant upheval. Their children were mortified at having to explain the OC to their friends. So we choose nc. It is what was best for our family.

Had you wished for your child to grow up with a father in his/her life, you should have made damm sure he was available to do so. Now that you have your child, you can hardly expect your victims to set aside their hurt and anger to accomodate your wishes.

I ask, where was your concern for his children while you were having your affair with him? Were you at all concerned about their welfare?

The thought and concern you showed them during the affair is the exact same you will get for your child from them.

Sorry Pointofview, they are all correct.

OC and Father can have contact if that is what HIS FAMILY wants. Many people give children up for adoption for a million different reasons. This is about the same.

Written by LynnG <blockquote>quote:<hr /> You speak of the innocent child, assuming s/he is the only innocent one. That is where the logic fails you. The BW and the children from the marriage are innocent victims also <hr /></blockquote>So true. When you decided to have this child, did you think about how it would affect his children and the burden they would have to carry. What is may do to their opinion of their F?

Take ktbunch's advice and apologize if you truly mean it. If you want the child to know it's father tell them and ask if that is possible. If they still decide that is not a good idea, accept it and move on. You and your child. It's the bed you made for youself.

Wow! I have gotten some really great perspective!

I now understand a lot better what the BS is going through and how difficult it would be to have to see the OC not as a child but as an everyday reminder of the pain the situation has caused.

In my case I have appologized to the wife and I am not after the husband.

The reason I'm visiting this site instead of the one dedicated to the OW's is I really didn't like the OW's site or the justifications on the site. When all is said and done it doesn't matter what the MM told me, I made a very bad choice and I am responsible for it. The wife and I are on good terms and she knows I'm not after her husband so I guess we are lucky. She is just trying to heal and put her family back together and I'm picking up the pieces of my life.

I do have one more question and I know I am looking at it from an OW perspective and I want very much to understand the other side. The pregency was really an accident and neither of us believed in abortion. So knowing that his family is truely the first priority, how do I find the balance between letting his family rebuild and him making me completely responsible for the pregnancy and the baby. My family has strong beliefs that you should not give up your own child either through abortion or adoption so being responsible for the baby was the only choice.

I guess what I am asking is I know that I am 100% responsible for my choice in agreeing to an affair and with that choice comes consequences that I am also completely responsible. I do take resonsibility for saying yes but I am confused why he gets let off the hook of having ANY responsibility. I also know the wife is completely innocent and shouldn't have to suffer any consequences because of a child she never asked for or had anything to do with -That's where I'm so confused. It feels like the husband is off the hook and for the rest of my life I am the only one who has to shoulder the responsibility of the child including all of the emotional development.

Ironically, It was actually the wife's idea to pay child support because I didn't want to burden their family, he wanted to just disappear and I probably would have let him. I haven't actually taken any of the money yet because I am torn between the wife suffering consequences of her husband and my actions but what part the husband should genuinely play. So I'm ready to hear the other side even if it's brutal at least I will understand. Thanks for letting me visit, if my perspective is completely selfish please let me know. I really want to understand.

Originally posted by pointofview:
So knowing that his family is truely the first priority, how do I find the balance between letting his family rebuild and him making me completely responsible for the pregnancy and the baby.

How about this:

You surrender full physical custody to the baby's father .... the baby doesn't have to be shuffled between two homes.

You can have visitation.

Pep

POV

I to have apologized to the W (actually XW) She took it as me having an hidden motive to try and get Xmm back.

I do not and will not get things oing with Xmm again. I am not after him.

As for child support. I did not go after XMM for $$. His W would blow her top if she actually knew that he does give money to help out the expenses of the kids. He does this on his own free will. She knows of him buying a few thigs, but not the full extent of it. She wants him to forget the kids even exsist and put his full attention on her. Funny thing is, there relationship started out as an affair. She was in a bi-racail marriage when he met her 25 yrs ago. They have no children together, but she had 3 with her first H who Xmm took in.

Dear cmdp21463:

I am single and was told the whole typical story that he was leaving his wife, didn't love her...etc etc. When I found out that wasn't really the case the affair ended. But no matter what he said I KNEW he was married and still said yes. So I have no excuse. As an OW I can tell you if she is still calling him, she probably still wants him. The wife and I were in complete agreement that I should not have ANY contact with the husband. The child is a different story and we haven't figured that one out yet. If your OW is young and pregnant she might also be going through some serious abandonment issues, regardless of how wrong the affair was she can probably only see trying to get past the heartache at any cost, even continuing the affair. It might not even be about your husband but she sees it as the solution to stopping the pain. She might need counseling to help her through it and to understand you are a real person with real feelings not just a name. The problem with us OW's is we are so focused on the man we see in front of us, the BS is only a name that we feel guilty about but somehow isn't real until we meet her, then the truth of what we have been part of comes crashing down. The look of hurt, pain and anger in the BS eyes is something I will never forget. In my case, I care very much for the BS, she is a good woman and did not deserve what was done to her. Your OW may not want anything to do with you because she would have to get to know you and then trying to get your husband back would not be so easy. Im a genuine case where the OW just wants an emotional bond between the father and child there is NO need for there to be any contact with the OW. The OC contact can be through a third party like a pregnancy counseler. If she wants to be there then SHE wants to see him and your marriage is in danger again. Hope that helps.

[ December 04, 2003, 03:25 PM: Message edited by: pointofview ]

He is not getting off scott free. He has hurt the woman he loves and that is a price that is very high. He has children that are born of that love and he has to look into those eyes each day and realize how close he came to blowing his whole world apart. If his wife is willing to work on the marriage, he is lucky, but he still has a lot to do. Love is easy. The trust and faith is the hard part. The price he is paying is high.

Now, for your child. You say your family does not believe in abortion/adoption, etc. But they are cool with a child from an affair? Really think this out. Do you really want to keep this baby or are you doing it cause others are telling you too? Adoption is a loving and kind way to prove love to your child. You can pick out the home,etc. It is not tossing your child aside. However, if you keep it, your price for the affair will more then likely be raising the baby on your own, with no contact from the father. To you, it seems unfair. To others it is part and parcel of the situation that you and he created.

All actions have consequences. You now see what yours are. It may seem unfair, but the whole situation is unfair to others. The BW, BC, and OC are all treated unfairly here. But this is what your actions have brought. It will never be even, or fair. Is it fair that your family view on abortion saddles him with a child he doesn't want?

LynnG-

Your points are all very well made. Thank you for taking the time to explain.

I do love the baby and I also believe in taking responsibility for the life that was created, adoption just feels like abandoning a child because of a mistake that I made and I can't see making a child suffer or feel unwanted because of something I did wrong. Although you always hope your child would go to a good home, adoption is not all roses either but you are right I also have to be responsible for the impact this has had on the BS and her family.

[ December 04, 2003, 05:17 PM: Message edited by: pointofview ]

Pointofview,

You said something that I think bares consideration. You said you were and probably are focused on the MM. Certainly even now you with respect to HIS role in your child's life. But, you are forgetting somethings.

1. As their marriage heals and your child gets older, both the BW and WH, may decide to become more physically connected to your child. While the W has no biological connection she may learn to love your child and want the child in their home 50% of the time. Are you prepared to deal with that?? You will be sharing your child with another woman who will be helping to raise that child. Sounds easy, sounds great, it often is NOT that cool.

2. Your life may take a different turn. You may want to leave the state you are in. If you do want to do this and MM becomes involved with the child he can sue to have you remain in the state so that he can be close to HIS child. He can have you PAY to send the child to him for prolonged periods to visit. Are you prepared for that?

3. Your life may change in another way. You may find a great man and marry him. He may well become the father your child needs. It is possible that MM would be willing to let him adopt the child IF MM has not established a close and deep relationship with the child. My best friend and best man in my wedding married a woman who had a child from a previous marriage. The little boy wanted a father in the worst way, and actually he had a big say in the woman and my friend marrying. My friend adopted that little boy (who is now well into his 30's). They are closer than the boy and his mother are.

In your focus on your new child you are forgetting that you may get what you wished for and it may not be best for you or your child. And you are forgetting that men do love children and they will marry a woman with children and love those children as if they were their own. It is far more common than the stories in the papers, on TV, and the rags of men that abuse children.

So as you consider your future and that of your child have patience, things change and they may make things much better for your child.

God Bless,

JL

PS: He is NOT getting off free. If you think so read my post on the other long thread going right now.

pointofview,
thanks for answering my questions. I do know this girl she was an employee of ours so I saw her all the time. She was friends with my daughters(16&15)also best friends with our friends daughter,thats how she came to work for us.I have spoken with her back in May ,right before my H moved out for 5 weeks. So she does know me and like I said, I never said a bad word to her. I was civil when I spoke with her ,I wanted her to know what this was doing to me and my kids. I know she wants him, she believes there is no one else for her. I even defended her when I spoke with her mother,her mom couldn't understand where her conscience was and was disgusted with her ,but I told her it was still her daughter and she needs her parents. My H tells me he always told her he loves me and we didn't have any problems. He feels he just loves both of us now and that just can't work. I am not saying he doesn't care for her but i see this for what it is ,something that made him feel good in a bad time we were going thru ,losing a buisness.If he could only see thru the fog! I could and would be willing to help her if I knew she was no longer a threat. I don't know how my kids are going to react to all of this,they already are sick by the thoughts of their father with someone that young. My d said it was like being a pedifile. They also said that he would never walk them down the isle at their wedding, or they would never associate with him if he did leave to be with her.They don't know about the pregnancy yet. She is excited about having a baby, she feels she has a part of him always now. But she is going to miss out on many things, like college, and doing things kids her age should be doing, meeting someone who she can marry and share her life with, these things can happen but it will be harder.And on the other hand my Children and I will have to feel the effects of paying child support,we are already in a horrible situaion finacually .

Dear cmdp21463,

It is obvious why your husband (and I'm sure everyone else in your life) loves you so much and you have an incredible heart but I have to agree with the people on your message board it is time to take care of you. You were the one betrayed and your husband has to have no contact. With everything you said She IS still a serious threat to your marriage. I am so sorry for being part of a group of women who partipated in this kind of behavior. If we as women stuck up for each other this would never have happened. You deserve to be happy and I am not sure what your message board says about this but I would think they would make him decide on if he was committed to the marriage or this other girl. You are trying to take care of everyone else at your own detriment and I am sure there is a way to be compassionate but firm so you can take care of you and your family. You deserve to be in a loving marriage. I really hope things work out.

"The problem with us OW's is we are so focused on the man we see in front of us, the BS is only a name that we feel guilty about but somehow isn't real until we meet her, then the truth of what we have been part of comes crashing down.

If only that were the case for my FOW. She was my best friend. She knew me better than almost anyone, and she STILL did this horrible thing to me by having two A's with my H and having OC and then keeping it a secret for 10 years. I was pregnant at the same time, and I have pictures of the two of us pregnant together, standing belly-to-belly. Our D are three months apart and are best friends.
I have know OC her whole life, but was never told she was my H child. I love OC but I am having a hard time even looking at,or speaking to FOW. When I finally confronted her and told her I knew all about the A's and OC she didn't even say she was sorry. About 15 minutes into our conversation I had to ASK HER if she was sorry.
There is so much pain involved that I am not sure what to do. I want my H to have contact with his OC, but all of these horrible emotions overcome me. I do not want my H to have contact with FOW, so it is up to me to talk to her and make all the visiting arrangements and it is killing me.
It almost seems to me that N/C would be so much easier. I feel like I will never heal from this massive betrayal if I continue to see FOW. I truly am stuck between a rock and a hard place.

HIT: We've had C w/ OC (6yo next month)for about 18 months now and I met/saw OW for the 1st time @ the CS hearing. My H introduced us (I was 8 mo. preg.) and she said, "Nice to meet you." I wanted to throw up right there. But my point is....it has brought back/up a lot of negative "stuff" (being "involved") but it has gotten better everyday. I still can't stand to see OW or look at OW but it has gotten better over time. I can actally have conversations w/ OW when I need to but I can't even amintain eye contact w/ her. I'm embarrassed FOR her I guess.

Although I can't imagine the ultimate betrayal of a friend & H, I can relate to not knowing (a little bit). My H never told me of A, or when it ended (because OW got pregnant) but waited until he was put in a position to be forced too. That hurt even more. All that time living a lie!! It all makes sense in retrospect though, his wierd behaviors, even after it was "over" his "distance" from me was now explainable. It wasn't because of me but rather because he was hiding this major "thing". As painful and embarrassing as it was for everyone, I think my H was at least relieved to have it out in the open.

I'm sorry you are going through this but you are not alone and it CAN get better and easier (believe it or not). It will take time for everyone to heal from this betrayal. Take care of yourself and your BC.

I do not want my H to have contact with FOW, so it is up to me to talk to her and make all the visiting arrangements and it is killing me.

Then DO NOT do this until you are ready. It is not good for your M to be forced into this.

Does OC know who his bio father is? If she doesn't know, and has a daddy she has bonded with .... then what's the point?

Pep

[ December 05, 2003, 07:02 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]

Does OC know who his bio father is? If she doesn't know, and has a daddy she has bonded with .... then what's the point?

Yes OC does know that my H is her Father.
The same day I went over to FOW's house to confront her she told OC that my H is her Father. OC has bonded with FOWH and he is her Dad so nothing much has changed in that regard.
But my D and OC are best friends,they have know eachother all of their lives and now know they are sisters. They want to see eachother.
It is for the children's sake that I put up with seeing FOW even though I want to punch her in the head and worse!I think she is the most evil person that I have ever met. (Don't worry I would not act on my anger or seek revenge. I am too good for that.)
I have told my H that I want to move away from this small community, that I cannot handle seeing FOW and that there are so many awful memories here. He agrees and we are planning to move. My D is a wonderful little girl and I know she will miss her bestfriend/newly found sister but she will make new friends.
I think moving away is the only thing that will keep me sane!
I am still - Hangin' In There

In my opinion there is somewhat of a double standard here regarding OC. The standard advice for a WH with an OC is no contact, but yet I have not yet seen anyone recommend no contact to a WW with an OC. Why is that?

It's probably a double standard, but so what? Women bond in utero with their child and that is something nearly impossible to break. Men aren't usually in touch with the child let alone the idea of the child until it is born and it is real to him. Sadly, kids need their Moms somewhat more than they need Dads...not that Dads are dispensible, because they are not.

I guess it is just the way it is.

Of course there's a double standard!

The mother who carries, gives birth and possibly nurses said child obviously has a special relationship with that child that can not and should not be ignored. Why pretent otherwise?

SOME on this board recommend no-contact, but other don't. If you look around, there ARE some fathers(and their wives) w/contact also on this board (even raising the OC!) and that's fine too.

The board is for all who are rebuilding post-affair--the focus is saving the marriage! , and often that means avoiding the XOW and OC. In the other case, saving the marriage often means the husband of a ww must accept the OC, because few women give up their biological child.

J
in recovery 5y; no more contact w/OC due to her crazy mother
(catnip--didn't see your reply first)

[ December 06, 2003, 06:10 PM: Message edited by: Jenny ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by catnip:
 It's probably a double standard, but so what? Women bond in utero with their child and that is something nearly impossible to break. Men aren't usually in touch with the child let alone the idea of the child until it is born and it is real to him. Sadly, kids need their Moms somewhat more than they need Dads...not that Dads are dispensible, because they are not.

I guess it is just the way it is. <hr /></blockquote>As a father I take offense to what you said. Sorry, but I have met my share of mothers who have no business raising a child. Giving birth to a baby no more entitles you to a special bond with a child than when a man simply is a sperm donor (as many here have referred to the OM).

There is an incredible double standard. It's not fair to ask a man to forgo his child any more than it is to ask a woman to forgo hers. But, if it's fair for a W to insist on NC with an OC and OW, then it's perfectly fair for an H to insist on NC with an OC and OM.
Michael

[ December 06, 2003, 07:09 PM: Message edited by: MichaelinDallas ]

Dallas, I think your opinion is unrealistic.

We all know some crummy parents, biology is no "guarentee" of a bond, nor are the bioparents always the best parents! However I'm going to bet that 80+% of the time, a woman pushed to chose between her newborn and a man will chose the baby! The husband of a wanderingwife is faced w/that, but can usually raise the child w/out seeing the XOM.

If a wMM must chose between OC and his marriage, he often loses closeness with the children of the marriage as well as his wife, respect, money, etc.... and he STILL may not see much of the OC because he ISN'T the custodial parent! If the XOW/mother is unreasonable and poisons the relationship (between OC and father or between husband and wife), it often isn't worth trying for the father. AND contact w/OC means MORE contact w/XOW.

You're comparing apples and oranges.

[ December 06, 2003, 09:58 PM: Message edited by: Jenny ]

This is my point of view.

My H chose contact with his OC without my agreeement. He secretly visited the child and when I found out, he still did it, lying through his teeth all the time. He claimed he was over OW and just wanted to be a father to the child.

Impossible. He continued to talk with OW, see OW, and meet with OW. She was only too happy to accomodate him. And why not?For I viewed what he was doing as turning away from his marriage, his obligation to me and our family, and our children.THE OW, on the other hand, had everything to gain-a person who economically helped support OC and a man she still loves who she has helped leave his marriage and is all too willing to be available under any circumstances for herself and OC. Despite him staying with me for years after A was allegedly over, she still loves him and who knows how he feels about her.

As for me, My H doesn't love me because I set limits on his behavior.Because his and OW';s choices have ruined my kids
lives.Have destroyed our family. He is a very part time dad to our kids, where once he was a full time one, and still an even more part time dad to OC.And this is good?

I am sorry. I don't see how this helps anyone but alleviates guild for my H's A and guilt for creating a child out of wedlock while married to someone else. My children, who too are innocent, are suffering, and do you think OW cares? hardly.She just sees me as a witch who is trying to manipulate my H.And that is so true.When who better manipulates the WS than the OW?>

It just doesnt' work, this contact with OC but no contact with OW, because as life goes on there will always be a connection to the oW.And that is why I am headed for divorce. it is a rotten circumstance for all, but I think the BS and BS;s children get a raw deal.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />

Originally posted by XRay:
In my opinion there is somewhat of a double standard here regarding OC. The standard advice for a WH with an OC is no contact, but yet I have not yet seen anyone recommend no contact to a WW with an OC. Why is that?

<hr /></blockquote>Dear "junior member".

There is NO "standard advice" about contact. You are mis-informed.

Have you read what Harley says about this OC contact situation? Go back to the main page and read the concepts.

This is Marriage Builders .... and C or NC is reached by MUTUAL AGREEMENT by the married couple.

However, sometimes C is maintained despite the married couple's desire for NC. If WW is the one to give birth to the OC and she stays in her M, sometimes the courts force visitation on the WW and her BH, because the OM went for CS and visitation.

I think NC is better for everyone when the OC already has 2 loving parents to raise him/her.

Are you a follower of MB concepts? Or, are you simply stating a random false observation without knowing the facts?

Pep

Ok, standard advice was a poor choice of words. But, the typical advice I read here on the forum, from forum members, is for the WH to have no contact with the OC, while I have not yet read anyone say the WW should have no contact with the OC.

By the way, giving up the OC is a deal breaker for me. But, I agree that whatever solution a couple comes up with, it should be by mutual agreement.

[ December 07, 2003, 10:01 AM: Message edited by: XRay ]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by XRay:
Ok, standard advice was a poor choice of words. But, the typical advice I read here on the forum, from forum members, is for the WH to have no contact with the OC,

Typical advice is that until the marriage is stabilized, NC is too painful and disruptive, and will likely lead to deterioriation of the marriage.

Marriage rebuilding first.

Then ***mutual agreement*** about NC or no NC.

Again, you are mis-informed. What works for the individual marriage varies.

Both spouses must be in agreement.

Pep

XRay,

I fully agree with you that contact or no contact must be by mutual agreement. What each person on this board is supposed to be portraying is their personal point of view. However, it sometimes comes off as some type of mandate rather than a personal opinion.

From time to time, I keep trying to remind newbies that contact does work in some circumstances just like it will not work in other. They should be guided by the feelings of each other (husband and wife) when making their decision -- not the experiences of individuals on this board.

Would you elaborate on what you meant by you consider no contact with OC a deal breaker? I did not understand what you meant.

Thanks,
heavenly

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by heavenlybody26:
 XRay,

Would you elaborate on what you meant by you consider no contact with OC a deal breaker? I did not understand what you meant.

<hr /></blockquote>Actually, I said "giving up" the OC is a deal breaker. My W is pregnant by her OM. I am willing to try and make our M work, but I will not raise another mans child and I will not support her during the pregnancy. She can get an abortion, or go away til the baby is born and she can give it up for adoption. Either way, she has to choose, me or the baby. But, I cannot agree to raise that child. So, we cannot have mutual agreement on keeping the baby.

[ December 07, 2003, 11:17 AM: Message edited by: XRay ]

When I was pregnant with Xmm child, H gave me that ultimatium. Either him or the child. Told me to abort. I showed him where the door is. My H isn't that great of a person in the first place. I made a mistake and had an affair. I lowered my moral values and wasn't about to go further by haveing an abortion.

Today, almost 3yrs after I found out about the pregnancy, H treats the oc like his own son and loves him like the rest of the children.

All in all, I would have left H and would have raised all my children without H around and without Xmm around.

[ December 07, 2003, 12:00 PM: Message edited by: Crazymum ]

I'm a long time lurker I don't post. I remember reading about a BS who H had visitation with OC then comes OC #2. I searched high and low for this post. I do understand NC. I'm a BS no OC. My heart goes out to the BS who have been devastated by these unwanted circumstances.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When I was pregnant with Xmm child, H gave me that ultimatium. Either him or the child. Told me to abort. I showed him where the door is. My H isn't that great of a person in the first place. I made a mistake and had an affair. I lowered my moral values and wasn't about to go further by haveing an abortion. <hr /></blockquote>

Crazymum: were you using MB principals POV?

Xray:I feel if a UH has to choose NC, I believe WW
also should choose NC if BH doesn't want to raise OM child. I believe BH should have the same options as BW.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=35;t=003062#000000

[ December 07, 2003, 02:22 PM: Message edited by: Lurker007 ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Jenny:
 We all know some crummy parents, biology is no "guarentee" of a bond, nor are the bioparents always the best parents! However I'm going to bet that 80+% of the time, a woman pushed to chose between her newborn and a man will chose the baby! <hr /></blockquote>Jenny, I would agree. Probably 80% of WW would choose her child over her H. With men, it is probably just the opposite, only 20% would choose their child over their W. However, you discount the fact that there are men out there who could no more abandon their child than an average woman.

I think the double standard exists because MB certainly appears to make accomodations for the fact that most women could not give up their child, while not appearing to make accommodations for the fact that there are indeed men who cannot abandon their child.

I have to agree on one thing, it would probably be too much to ask for a WW to give up her child to make the M work. I just happen to think it is also too much to ask for a WH to give up his child. I understand the NC issues, but again, in cases where the OM knows about the OC, it is very common for the BH to have to put up with some minimal contact with OM as part of keeping the M together. It is far less common for a BW to put up with minimal contact with OW as part of keeping the M together.

The double standard exists because of the vastly different emotional makeup of men vs women, with your average man being perfectly willing to give up their OC. But it is still a double standard.

For the record, I am a man who would never, ever, give up contact with my child, no matter how he or she came into this world. All I am saying is, if you accept that a woman could not give up contact with her child, you have to accept if a man wants contact with his child.

Michael

[ December 07, 2003, 05:06 PM: Message edited by: MichaelinDallas ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by MichaelinDallas:
Probably 80% of WW would choose her child over her H. With men, it is probably just the opposite, only 20% would choose their child over their W. However, you discount the fact that there are men out there who could no more abandon their child than an average woman.

I think the double standard exists because MB certainly appears to make accomodations for the fact that most women could not give up their child, while not appearing to make accommodations for the fact that there are indeed men who cannot abandon their child.

I have to agree on one thing, it would probably be too much to ask for a WW to give up her child to make the M work. I just happen to think it is also too much to ask for a WH to give up his child. I understand the NC issues, but again, in cases where the OM knows about the OC, it is very common for the BH to have to put up with some minimal contact with OM as part of keeping the M together. It is far less common for a BW to put up with minimal contact with OW as part of keeping the M together.

The double standard exists because of the vastly different emotional makeup of men vs women, with your average man being perfectly willing to give up their OC. But it is still a double standard.

For the record, I am a man who would never, ever, give up contact with my child, no matter how he or she came into this world. All I am saying is, if you accept that a woman could not give up contact with her child, you have to accept if a man wants contact with his child.

Michael [/QB]<hr /></blockquote>I think it is a double standard because that is how "society" has allowed "society" to view men in regards to being a parent...DISPOSABLE. If you happen to get involved in a messy situation like this, the first thing that happens, as a man, is that you are responsible for CS, "first and foremost". You go to court and you are getting sued for CS, not sued to be a father! They want your money first and you are forced to pay but spending time w/ OC (or any child for that matter) is OPTIONAL but paying CS is NOT. There is a double standard because males have no choice in supporting a child that is produced from their sperm. Women on the other hand, can choose, completely on her own, whether to abort or not, whether to financially suppport her child or not. This has been addressed in another thread already.

And if you are the mother of OC and were the WS, it is different because OC will automatically (excluding a female who has been determined to be an unfit parent) live w/ you and female will automatically get "custody", while the father of OC, married or not, will only get "visitation" and has to fight for "custody".

It is VERY common for BS to allow C w/ OC born from their H sperm. Read some more around here and you will find many BS who have gone out of their way to promote and encourage H relationship w/ OC, many at the expense of thier own feelings and BC feelings. Some don't advocate this (like me)because of all the heartache and pain it has (or know it can/will cause) caused their marriage and families plus the complication of an uncooperative OW. (we have generous C w/ OC and I advise others to go NC)

Yes, at the time (my H says) it was an EASY decision to make....OW & OC or wife & kid???....He said when faced w/ the choice (by OW not me, when she found out she was pg.) he knew in a "split second" what he wanted and his first thought was that he didn't want to give up what he KNEW for something or someone he really didn't even know, much less for a child he didn't even know. I know it sounds cruel but that's the reality of marriage vs. A.

And it is very easy to say what you would or would not do ..... until .... you are actually forced to make a decision in that situation.

well, the relevant part is zero contact with the former affair partner. It seems to be more frequent that the WW brings the OC into an intact marriage with their BH and maintains NC with the male affair partner than the WH brings the OC into an intact marriage with the BW and maintains no contact with the female affair partner.

Either was is of course pretty darn hard on the betrayed spouse.

Originally Posted by ivy45

well, the relevant part is zero contact with the former affair partner. It seems to be more frequent that the WW brings the OC into an intact marriage with their BH and maintains NC with the male affair partner than the WH brings the OC into an intact marriage with the BW and maintains no contact with the female affair partner.

Either was is of course pretty darn hard on the betrayed spouse.

Agree. And it makes it impossible to recover the marriage, which makes it more likely there will be a divorce. A divorce hurts everyone, the children of the marriage and the OC. A marriage that is harmed in such a devastating way can't endure continued contact with the affair partner. It is even more important in situations where there is an OC to observe strict no contact.

FYI ....

this thread is from 2003

LOL!
I wondered if anyone was going to notice that

Thanks Pep!