lynn & others,,,,,,, let me start by saying that i don't mean this to be disrespectful in any way and i am not trying to berate or say that the choices you and your h made were wrong in any way. i respect the fact that the 2 of you were able to keep your family intact and repair your marriage in the best way possible for yourselves.
my question is how old were your c's when your h had his A and resulting oc?
the reason i am asking is that you made a comment on the xray thread about your c's being humiliated by the fact that there was an oc.
i don't understand why they would carry your h's humiliation of his A. in our situation here there are 10 c's involved from the 2 families (7 ours and 3 om's). now i can only speak from experience for my kids but as far as i can see they show no signs of humiliation when interacting or when people ask them how many siblings they have. in fact when someone asks me how many children i have or how old is my youngest in the presence of one of my bio kids and i reply 8. they will correct me immediately and say grace is almost 2. so i have learned to include her in my conversations as if she were just part of our personal school disrict.
and as far as i can tell about om's kids they can't wait to get grace on their visitations. they show no signs of feeling humiliated or embarrassment about their fathers A and resulting oc.
from what i see with these 10 kids they all love grace and are proud to call her their sister. if they have any humiliation about their parents A they don't show it in what i see.
I have to agree with you Pops on that. Our oldest was 6 when the first two OC were born. Withmy OC, I gues it came as natural for them. But even know when one of there friends ask why the kids call Xmm papa they tell them the truth, he's there bio dad. As for H oc, they barley see him, but when someone ask how many is in the family, my oldest will proudly say she has three brothers, just that the one doesn't live with us.
And to make things clear, my kids do know that what dad and mom was wrong. They know that mom has suffered from her mistake also. But they love their siblings. They know its not there fault.
The only thing I can answer is this---
OC and my h's and my first daughter are literally two weeks apart. They are not twins.
I was married to him long, way long before OC popped up into our lives.
If we've recovered and moved on with the affair and had Mr."T" chosen contact, I'd forever be doing one of two things---
1. explaining where OC came from
2. explaining that I'm not the reason that I busted up OC's "mom and dad's marriage" as some people would assume.
My 8 year old daughter knows about it in an age appropriate way. She does not blame the OC, but she said that she sure didn't want OC around. I asked her why? She said that OC doesn't belong to us, she belonged to her mother. I never said a word to her about it. I told her people make different choices and some are bad ones.
She was angry more at Daddy for a while. I can't wait to tell Mini-me, Bubba and Lee-Lee about their half-sib...if I get this reaction from someone who isn't even related to the OC...Lord knows, I'll need to tell them in a counseling session.
I can just imagine people asking why Mini-me and OC are two weeks apart and have the same last name....it just gets old...and "Mind your own business" doesn't always work. So I can see how down the road, it can get old for the children of my marriage...and I'm just speaking from my perspective. There are many other reasons why we have chosen NC and now we are moving because of one of them...the crazy ex-ow.
Twiisty
twisty,,,,,, i only have a second or the way i type 30 minutes. i will respond more to your post later when i have several hours to hunt and peck on this keyboard.
i just wanted to say to you and anyone else that cares to respond to this thread that it is not in any way intended to be a battle over contact vs nc. i have no problem with which ever path a couple chooses to go on that issue. whatever works best for them.
For us pops, our son was a few weeks shy of turning 18. His humilation stemmed from what his Dad had done to Mom and I guess oc just represented that.
Then when ow tried to use our sur-name it caused further anger and future humiliation to our son. At that time we all belonged to the same parish and church school. Where as some of my son's former teachers or friends may not have known, using our name would let them know! Ow uses her married name though for oc.
I think when you have oc in the home it may or may not cause embarrassment, as most strangers won't question if oc is yours and wifes, you know?
Heck, we are old enough to be oc's grandparents <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" />
Also my son did not want to share a Dad with oc. He honestly doesn't dislike oc he doesn't even know oc! To this day he dislikes ow though as she was a former friend and still with the help of my H had this incredible humiliating situation happen. See? He forgave Dad but ow was nothing to him so he harbors anger toward her for what happened to us both, you know what I mean?
Pops he was hospitalized over all of this and we both were put on anti depressants!
All of his close friends "knew"... he was horrified to say the least.
Hope you understand that oc didn't do this, oc's existance and how it came to be did.
That's where the humiliation comes in.
love
Debi
I think kids respond the way they are taught to respond. Good or bad. Right or wrong.
They come into this world with a blank slate whether they are born into a (confused xOW) single parent home without a name, or into an intact, happily married, two-parent, loving home with no affairs at all.
Children learn what they live. Parents' beliefs and values are programmed into their kids. Good or bad. Right or wrong. They are little sponges soaking up everything around them--all the mindsets, attitudes, and belief-systems of the adults who are making deposits into their lives.
We even teach them whether they are to be afraid or to be courageous! Just my take on it...
<small>[ December 19, 2003, 04:25 PM: Message edited by: BINthereDUNthat ]</small>
BTDT you are so right about the values thing. Probably why my son was so shocked as to what happened. We taught him a different set of values than what his dad did! Not to mention son knew before me as H told him first and his reaction, on his own ,was a downward spiral.
Because of the values we showed him I guess. He was probably wondering about that "practice what you preach" thing where his Dad was concerned.
Maybe young children do ok, but most adult children who can think on their own, harbor ill feelings about oc and view it as embarassing.
I still say if oc lives in your home things seem to be different.
love
Debi
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">originally posted by BTDT: Just my take on it...
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...and a very good take on it, if I may say so.
I agree.
A lot of children even have the same political beliefs as their parents, mine sure do. Of course, we are news and political junkies, so our little sponges couldn't help but get soaked up w/ it! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
Seriously though, I really do think children take our lead, and are watching and listening more than we sometimes realize. Naturally, the older they get, the more independant they get, and the more they are able to form their own opinions. Still, a lot of their decision making processes, I can't help but think are influenced greatly by the way they were brought up. What did they learn from the way mom & dad handled certain situations?
Also, I agree with the notion that it's much easier for a sibling to handle growing up w/ an OC who is part of his/her daily life.
Sometimes kids also want to do whatever they think will please mom & dad too.
Boy, I don't think I was much help.
Good thread, pops!!
Take good care.
~autumnday
<small>[ December 19, 2003, 05:15 PM: Message edited by: autumnday ]</small>
well i was going to start at the top and work down
but when i read btdt's reply (They are little sponges soaking up everything around them--) it hit the nail on the head of where i as going with this thread.
btdt you must be psychic.
twisty,,,,, your 8 yo stateing that oc belongs to ow makes sense to me. but i want to ask you if it is at all possible that she/he heard you and h talking and one of you made reference to oc in that light? therefore instilling the attitude she/he exhibits now.
i agree that it gets old. just last night for the umteenth time i ran across an old friend whie at my 12 yo d's soccer practice. he asked if she was my youngest to which i replied no there is an almost 2 yo in the house. well he naturally assumed grace was mine and started on with the "man are you brave and "haven't you figured out what causes that crap" stuff. i just smiled and let it go. saying he doen't even have a clue.
gem,,,,, i understand your son being upset as in my house it was our older ones that were upset with fh's infidelity. i can't say whether grace being in the house made that big of a difference but it certainly ddn't hurt. it most likely made it much easier on our little ones as they were here with fh thru her entire preg. as opposed to having a living, breathing oc all of a sudden appear out of the blue. even our 5 yo d understood that baby's come out of moms tummy.
i even understand him being mad at the ow. after all she is a person that came between his mom and dad. kids get upset when parents remarry and all of a sudden there is a stepparent that comes between them and their mom or dad. but if he harbors resentment toward any person that had no say in the reason for the resentment he needs to try and find some peace with that somehow.
i also see your point about his being able to forgive his father and not ow. i would bet a dollar to a donut that your h asked your son for forgiveness and ow never even considered it.
i do see your point but will disagree with you on one thing. i don't agree that oc mear existance should is a valid reason to dislike he/she. but the way in which oc was concieved is definately valid.
crazy,,,, that is the point i was trying to get at. as btdt said i feel that especially with younger siblings in these circumstances their attitudes come mainly from how the adults around them react. even if the adults don't talk directly to the young ones but allow themselves to be overheard while discussing it or even argueing with their ws about it.
Heyyy,
Sorry I can't keep up on the board as much as I used to and as much as I would like. I just wanted to add another thing, I believe the kids pick up on our moods and attitudes even when we least expect it. It's amazing to watch my kids act out in unfavorable ways and turns out they are immitating ME! (yikes)
I can remember asking myself one time, 'gosh, am I really that negative?' because of my oldest's responses to a certain topic...
It's hard to face the truth that we can tell our kids how they should act, but they will behave exactly like we ARE.
This is wierd, this topic wasn't even showing up on my screen until today.....
But anyway, I can see, pops where you might be going with this and might be suspecting that BC will be fine and accepting of OC if parents "act" that way.
Our oldest has taken "news" of OC the worst. He will be 11 next month and we waited until the last possible moment to tell him about OC, when we were sure we would be going for C. AT THE TIME BC was 9 1/2 yo and OC was 4 1/2 yo.
That made the biggest differance right there, they did not know of each other's existance from the beginning.
BC went into a depression. We told him that daddy was wrong blah blah blah and never said anything neg. about OC. (trying to reinforce familial relations, we always referred to every one as brother and sister, daddy, ect.) He acted real sweet and like a loving older brother to OC at first but was suffering from visible symptoms of depression @ the same time. He was able to see first hand OW attitude and I think chose from then to have a "negative attitude/feeling" towards OW. He will say he is fine w/ everything but then is suffering from depression symptoms?
Now most of depression symptoms are gone and he is not as sweet to OC, more like indifferent. It is hard, he is embarrassed trying to explain.(he knows what his dad did was wrong so how could he explain that?) One week he only had a little brother and then the next he had a 4 yo sister!??! Of course all his friends were puzzled and asked questions. He would just tell them to come talk to me.
He seems to not like OC but after talking to other parents, they have reassured me that many of their bio kids act the same way towards each other and it may be more normal then I thought. I have mentioned on another thread/post that BC has said to me, which i think sums it up, "I know it's not OC fault but I still just wish she was never around and in our lives."
We have talked a lot w/ him, gone over responsibility, our religious convictions, emphasizing why these things are wrong and how much it affects so many other people when we act selfishly.
3yo has problems mostly due to OC being in and out of our lives because of "visitation". This pains me, it is not normal and I am sad about it. It is disruptive. I think when OC is from the woman the child "lives" w/ you but if OC is from the H, the child only "visits" and we all have that feeling.
There are a lot of variables that determine how BC and families will react with and towards OC if C is chosen.
As of today, right now, H & I think C was a mistake for our family but we are willing to stick it out longer and try to make it better and see if it does.
Our children were toddlers were told nothing at all at the time. However, I spoke with a woman who had an oc, tried contact and it was a disaster. She explained to me about all the upset and upheaval. So we choose at that time no contact. As our children grew and the OW and her whine for contact and all was obvious, they were horrified. As they entered Jr. High they understood clearly what oc was and what it stood for. They found the whole scenario seedy. And why not? It is seedy.
I think you are going to say (correct me if I'm wrong) that children learn their beliefs and thoughts from their parents. Our children think of the oc with embarrasment. They do not want to share their father with anyone. They think the whole thingis to Jerry Springer and want nothing to do with oc. I agree.
As for contact when my kids were basically babies, sorry. What would be the point? That child may have my husbands DNA, but is not a part of this family. Is not, and never will be considered or treated as a sibling. My children had a right to grow up free of the shame and embarrassment of having to explain to their friends who that boy is. They also didn't have to share their father with a strangers baby. I was told by a few women who had an oc how angry and upset their children were, how it humiliated them when oc was around. How hard and embarrassing it was for them when their friends would ask about the child at their house. She said her children were mortified and she was strongly against that. She said her children suffered and she will never forgive herself for putting them through that.
I believe the children of the marriage come first. I was not and will not ever expect my children to have to suffer any kind of embarrassment because of what their father did. They know of oc, and are sickend by the whole thing.
Are you going to try and tell me that since my children were so young that we could have had visitation and they could have been happy siblings? Doubt it. Just how were they supposed to explain this child to their friends when he is younger then my oldest and about the same age as my 2nd child? Do you think it would have been fair to my children to have their dad off some saturday and missing their soccer games to be with oc? What about it that child was at the game? How do they explain that? Why should they be subject to all that? I would never put my children in that position.
Look, your wifes OC was born to her, in the house. I would bet the majority of people expect that child is yours. So your children don't have to explain to much, as their friends probably assume you are the father anyway.
As for children accepting. Maybe they do, maybe they don't. You said the older ones were mad, but now accept. Can I ask, while they were mad, were their feelings taken into consideration or was it just a give that mom was bringing this baby into the house no matter what or how anyone felt?
But getting back to the topic at hand, I don't believe in contact. I feel that it is asking to much of the spouse and children to have to accept the embarrassing gossip just to make others feel better.
Pops - I understand your reasoning, but I must say I agree with LynnG on this. Her last post could have come straight from my own mouth. My H is seemingly trying to push contact on me. While the OC & my DD are 5 months apart, I know I would secretly seethe in public if someone asked if they were twins. I so admire Staci for being able to accept LilBit, but I suppose maybe I have some downfall as a Christian that I can't get past this.
My bio-father has children and I don't even know their names. I guess I just never felt the urge to know who they are. My H thinks this is wrong of me, but I never had any real contact my my bio, so I guess I just don't care.
As to how my DD would act towards the OC - I don't know. At 14 months, what does she know of any of this. My H thinks it's all so very simple - daddy made a mistake and that fixes it. Well - it doesn't. If *I* am so very humiliated by the OC then, how would my DD react? Tonite my MIL asked me if we were bringing both babies to visit for Christmas. The chill on the phone was so heavy her ear should have fallen off from frostbite. Obviously, my H was making plans w/o consulting me. A big no-no. Ok - I've digressed with a rant, but I do second Lynn. The dynamics are s very different on how people feel with these situations.
Vee
Our situation was a little different. It was a second marriage for both. Shared no children together. Each had two children from previous marriage. We ended up divorcing then worked on reconciliation for a while. For the record, I was willing to accept the OC into my life. I had met him, spent time with him, started to love him. During that time my 16 year old stpdaughter wrote me a letter re: the OC and what had happened. In our case the OC has Down Syndrome. My stpdaughter said "I am sorry for what you have had to go through. You are twice the woman the OW will ever be. But, I do love my baby brother, and am not sorry that he is in my life. The way he came into the world wasn't right, but it wasn't his fault. I know that he has special needs, but I love him and will always be there for him." My 21 year old stepson, her brother, has not been so accepting. For one thing, the OW is only one year older than my stp.son. Stp.son told his father, "I love you but have lost all respect for you." Would have nothing to do with the baby up until a few months ago when my exWS was in a terrible motorcycle accident and almost lost his life. Stp.son is helping provide care for his dad. This forces him to be around OC since dad and OW live together. He is starting to warm up to his half-sib. Sure it wounds the ego a little, even though I've given up on reconciliation. (exWS still has the illusion that someday we'll be back together). I am glad that my stp.son is warming to his half brother. The "children" are all totally innocent in this. But I'm sure that people in public assume the OC (18 months old) is either my stp.son's or stp.daughter's baby! My exWS is 48 years old! "Gramps" is in a household full of "kids". There are moments of sweet revenge in this world!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
lynn,vee, & lily,,,,,, thank you all for replies and i will reply back on friday or saturday depending on time.
I wish we had known people like LynnG had known, to warn us of all the mayhem that choosing C would cause and we would have known to make a different choice. We regret choosing C!
It was a surprise to me when I learned who had this problem in their lives. My doctor had his nurse talk with me. She and her H had an oc, we became friends. Soon we had a little group of us. Most had oc older then mine at the time. As the years rolled on, we sorta found each other. I am now one of the women with an older oc and have meet some wonderful young women going through the devastation this causes. We sorta have a little support group. All started by the nurse at the doctors office.
Today some of these women are my dearest and most cherished friends. We feel we have gone through the fire and have been forged with strength. We enjoy helping others. We babysit for long weekends, or for a night. I have had some young women and their children stay at my home for a few days to help them out. Give mom a chance to lick her wounds while she catches up to her own life that has spun out of control.
You are new to this. Someday, years down the road you are going to look into the eyes of a younger woman and see exactly where you were. You are going to want to help her. Hug her. Her story will not be a trigger at all. You are going to see the lies with such a clarity, that she can't see at that time. When people start clammoring for contact with the oc, your wisdom and experience are going to be information she needs to hear. This is not a Norman Rockwell painting afterall. When others are telling her that she has to do what is right for the child, you will be the experienced voice of reason asking her what about her children? What about what she wants and needs? You are going to be the one with the strength to listen to her story over and over and over. That is the best we can do for each other. Listen.
The women you wish you had met, it will be you!! The best thing that came out of all of this oc business for me is my wonderful group of friends. I love them dearly and we really have fun. We have much more in common then just an oc.
The most important thing I learned is to live you life and be happy. Enjoy your family. Enjoy your life. Don't let others make decisions about your life that work out best for them. As so many want us to do.
well first i hope everyone had a happy holiday and will have a happy and prosperpous new year.
lynn,,,, let me say 1st that i am in no way trying to condem or chastise you on your decision of nc. and i am not trying to tell you that had you had contact your kids and oc would have led a life of peace and harmony. there is no way of telling how the past may have changed the present. if at all.
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I think you are going to say (correct me if I'm wrong) that children learn their beliefs and thoughts from their parents
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that's exactly what i am going to say.
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Our children were toddlers were told nothing at all at the time
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i assume that by toddlers you mean under the age of 4. how does a child under the age of 4 who is introduced to another infant feel embarrassment over oc being introduced to them. hell they have no concept of the reproduction method and so have no concept of any form of deciept. for all they know at that age the oc could have crawled out from under a cabbage leaf.
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That child may have my husbands DNA, but is not a part of this family. Is not, and never will be considered or treated as a sibling. My children had a right to grow up free of the shame and embarrassment
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the oc is not part of your family because you and h have choosen that road. and by doing so took your children along for the ride. if that works for you and yours, fine. again what i am saying is that your children, as babies had no shame of oc. that was a gift from you. it was your shame and embarrassment of your h's A and resulting oc that was handed down to them.
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Are you going to try and tell me that since my children were so young that we could have had visitation and they could have been happy siblings? Doubt it. Just how were they supposed to explain this child to their friends when he is younger then my oldest and about the same age as my 2nd child?
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now i will say the answer is don't know for sure. but it may have been possible had it been presented to them in a positive light instead of a negative one of shame. example "lynn, kids here is your new brother.
kids, where did he come from?
lynn, people make mistakes and your dad made one. as a result of his mistake your 1/2 brother was created.
in which case your kids explanation would simply be he my brother.
so the answer is maybe. now i understand that you were obviously in a tremendous amount of pain at that time and that's why i don't say ypou were wrong for your choice. you did what was best for you at that time with the resources you had to work with.
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Do you think it would have been fair to my children to have their dad off some saturday and missing their soccer games to be with oc? What about it that child was at the game?
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their dad didn't have to be off visiting oc. he could have picked up oc and brought him to the game.
in our case grace and her bio dad don't miss any of his son's soccer games. he picks her up and they go as a family.
which is my point. had oc been incorporated into the family from the start all those around you, be it family and/or friends, who care about you would have followed your lead and excepted the facts.
this is exactly what has happened with our family.
grandma is grandma, grandpa is grandpa, cousins, aunts and uncles are cousins, aunts and uncles. we live in a small town for southern calif (about 20000). i have been very active in the community for a long time with all the kids sports and school functions. there is never a negative word said about grace or our kids. when i am out in public (always) people always ask how the kids are and remark how beautiful (parental bragging right) they are and they are always including grace. she is considered one of mine.
people wil take from your attitude and respond accordingly.
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Look, your wifes OC was born to her, in the house. I would bet the majority of people expect that child is yours. So your children don't have to explain to much, as their friends probably assume you are the father anyway.
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there is no mistaking that grace is not my child as her bio dad is latino. yes some people we don't know just assume she is mine when at the store. but i think that is because of the way i interact with grace. it as natural and the same as i did with all my kids. point here being that people respond to what they see in kind. and you are right i guess as none of my kids have ever come to saying that so-in-so asked where grace came from.
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You said the older ones were mad, but now accept. Can I ask, while they were mad, were their feelings taken into consideration or was it just a give that mom was bringing this baby into the house no matter what or how anyone felt?
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yes the older 2 were very upset. the oldest is my son from before i met fh. he was extremely upset as his bio mom had lived a life of one guy after another and bar hopping. he veiwed fh as a stable mom who lived with morals. his disappointment with her was always coupled with he would support whatever dicision i made as far as staying in the marriage or divorcing fh. once i made the dicision to stay it was actually him that said to me "then all the resentment has to be put behind you and you need to move forward. if i couldn't do that then i would have made the wrong choice."
incredible wisdom for a man at the age of 26. (sorry more bragging)
as for my oldest d (19 at the time) she too was upset but her reasons were hagain her disappointment with her mother. she had just moved back in the house and given birth to a d of her own. her and fh were always close and she was stricken aback at the fact of fh's affair and resulting pregnancy because fh had spent the last year telling her to use protection against not only preg. but std's also and not to just jump in the sack with the first john that comes down the lane. then she saw her mom leave birth control behind and lay down with the first guy that paid attention to her outside of her marriage. she was disappointed in her mom's two facedness (is that a word or did i just make it up?). also she wanted fh to abort the baby as she had just done the same because she became preg very shortly after giving birth to my grandaughter "buttercup"
and aborted the baby. fh and i supporte her on her dicision and she felt her mom should be strong enough to follow suit. now she is graces baysitter and has fully accepted her.
yes their feelings were taken into consideration as were the fellings of all those involved. all were talked out. but yes they did have to make a choice of whether to accept fh and grace or not.
another point i want to make here is that you mention the shame and embarrassment you suffer from your h's A. i find that strange as i don't feel any of that as far as fh's A. she has those feelings i know but not me. what would i be ashamed or embarassed of. the fact that i stayed married to someone that cheated on me. i feel that staying is an asset to my character instead of a humiliation. as it should be for you and anyone else that goes through this and rebuilds their marriage. you should feel no shame what-so-ever in this and be proud that you were strong enough to not only survive it but keep your family intact also. let's face it if it were left to ws's most marriages would end after discovery before their fog lifted. it is the bs's determination to hold the family together that enables them time to screw their heads on straight and get to work on the marriage.
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But getting back to the topic at hand, I don't believe in contact
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wrong the topic at hand is not contact vs nc. the topic at hand is who c's learn from and if we are projecting the right attitudes to them.
will reply to more later i can't believe how slow i type. my keyboard skills stink.
<small>[ December 28, 2003, 01:53 AM: Message edited by: pops ]</small>
kt,,,,, i understand what you are saying about the difficulty of bringing a c of 4yo into the family in these cases. i am sure it was alot easier on us as grace was here from the start and my kids actually saw fh during her entire preg. to them it probably seemed just like any one of the others.
and the same goes for ow. if they present the situation to their oc as an abandoning father then oc will assume the same.
this is what happened to my oldest son although he was not an oc. his mother told him his whole life that i abandoned him. so when he was older the anger surfaced. that is when i simply handed him the journal that i had kept and let him read for himself what happened from my viewpoint.
vee,,,,,, as i posted to lynn i don't understand your humiliation. i have never felt shame or humiliation as a result of fh's A. all the other emotions sure pain, hurt, anger, rejection, low self esteem, etc. but not shame and humiliation.
in fact the feeling of looking outside of my own personal hurt and doing what i thought best for my kids was a big part of rebuilding my own self esteem. even if it was a self centered pride at the time, it sure helped.
and i don't think you have any down spots of being a Christain in the way you are handleing this. there are a billion different and extremely complicated emotions envolved with this nightmare.
i think the Bible gives you an option of which road to follow. Abraham cast his son and his sons mother out into the desert knowing God would
protect them. (nc) while gomers husband waited for years and forgave her for her infidelities. (forgiveness of an A)
i will disagree with you on the daddy made a mistake part. as far as your kids are concerned it should most definately be enough. if not you would be projecting your hurts onto them. don't you want to teach your c's about forgiveness and compassion? or should they learn that a lifetime of torment should be lived for each mistake we make thru life. this is in no way an attempt to trivialize A w/ oc. men who were looked in deadly combat during many of our wars have been able to forgive men who were trying to kill them years before. why can't your h make a mistake and find forgiveness for it?
lily,,,,, that is what i am talking about. i am sure that this was presented in a positive light to your sd. and it sounds like the continual presentation as a positive is why your ss is warming to oc. he is not placing blame on oc for his dad's mistake.
it sounds like your h is still with ow. i am curious as to how your 2 kids reacted to oc.
I'm thinking the "humiliation" thing may be the difference between male and female. I don't know, I felt VERY DUMB upon the discovery/confession of the A. I felt like a complete idiot.
And we also told our oldest BC that daddy was wrong but I also try to turn every "opportunity" we have to talk about it positive and by pointing out the "positives", at least for my son's sake. I tell him about forgiveness and how OC is a testament to our (my) forgiveness and dad's hard work to take responsibility and make things right (regardless of how I feel at the moment, but I believe it most of the time) and the grace of GOD to give us the strength to forgive each other as he always forgives us ect., how blessed we are to have an intact family because many marriages/families do not survive these situations, ect. There are many things that I say and I try to make daddy look very good always. A child won't know if they have the worst dad in the world (H is a great dad) if you treat them as the best. (and I'm not reffering to abusers and losers here, but normal, everyday dads/parents who aren't perfect, not excusing unexcusable behaviour) And I always remind our children of how much mommy loves daddy. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
But they have been hurt that is undeniable. It is a betrayal to them too. I just try to help them sort out their real feelings (hard to do with the 3 yo ???? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> )
I would rather not have had to see them go through this pain. I feel like there is enough pain and evil outside in the world and I failed to protect them from the pain in their own home. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> That is just how I feel.
Pops, I love your faith in your children!!!! Lucky kids!!
I still believe that by allowing oc into the family, it is basically saying that no matter how you screw up, others will clean up the mess for you.
My children were toddlers, under 4. Of course they didn't know about reproduction. However, they would certainly have been effected had he had contact with oc. That would have been time away from them. I believe it is to weird and to strange for these kids to suddenly have some strange child plopped into their lives on a part time basis. They grow quickly and I did not want my chidrens lives upset by all the drama of oc, visits, etc.
Today, they think of the whole affair, oc as disgusting....since it is. They were deeply ashamed of their father and were angry when they learned about all that had transpired. They have a strong sense of right from wrong and see oc as a result of wrong behavior. They would be humiliated if their friends knew. They are teen today and can totally understand the reproductive aspects of this.
I am also friends with women who did contact. They all, 100% regret it. Also, none of them, today have any contact with oc. Their own children were angry, upset, etc. They were so embarrassed having to answer who that child was. One family's children used to say their parents were babysitting, never awknowledging the child. The father would get mad at them for this. They in turn told their father it was oc or them, make a choice, etc. The family fights were on going until finally, he had to stop contact as his wife said she couldn't live with the hostility and she was putting her children first and asked him to leave. The house was a battle ground of anger and hate. No way was him bringing that baby to that house good for his children. They were to embarrassed. So, should he have sat down and told his kids they had to accept oc? He stopped contact with oc. They tried, but their kids paid the price. All of the children did.
So, while I see your point of how children take their parents lead, that isn't true for everyone. I have taught my children that what their father did was wrong. That we, as a family wanted to heal and move on and no contact was what was best for us. I taught them that all actions have consequences. That it was not my or their responsibility to have to pay for their dads sins. They are greatley appreciative that we never had to put up with the visits and embarrassing on going drama.
kt,,,,, i don't know about the difference between men and women. but i think that most all bs's feel incredibly stupid once everything is out in the open. whether it be from just being blind to what was going on or having the realization that although you knew the truth you placed yourself in a state of denial about it.
it sounds to me that you still feel a great deal of pain as we all do at times. heck fh and i went to see the movie "love actually" yesterday ( i know it's been out for awile, i guess were just behind). watching that movie i felt remorse. when the boss's w relized he was having an A and also watching all the love stories and seing the passion each person felt. although i love fh very deeply i haven't been able to find that same passionate feeling i had all those previous years.
maybe you should try putting the continual explanations about this to your son on the back burner. whenever i feel emotions from a trigger i never let the kids know what i am dealing with. in this way i think it has protected them from so much of the drama.
the one thing about kids is that if their parent is a good parent with them no matter how he/she is with their spouse you will never be able to turn the child on that parent. those bonds are extremely strong. the more you bad mouth a parent the closer you will drive the child to them.
lynn,,,,,, the faith i have in children goes much deeper then my own. i have the same faith in all children and i have gained that faith thru my interaction with 1000's of kids for the last 23 years a a coach in little league, soccer and football. i have found that if you give them good guidedance coupled with positive encouragement and add a dash of expectance along with a teaspoon of showing them you believe in them, they will rise to the occassion and perform in ways most parents didn't believe their kids could perform. i have had to many teams to count and they have been overall very successful beause of the above recipe. and basically all i have done is look at their strengths and gotten them to believe in themselves.
as for the rest of your reply i am not offering sympathy but i must say it made my heart ache. to think of all those people living with with all that bitterness. the thought of your kids being disgusted over your h's falling victim to what so many have been victims of. not excusing anything or trivializing anything but the thought of your kids thinking of another human being as disgusting is sad to me. i know you have said that they don't blame oc but you have made statements about them feeling oc is disgusting so many times i can't help but see that as the truth. sad.
also how sad for all those friends of yours that they have and are living their lives with so much resentment. the story about the couple whose c's put an ultimatum to their father sounds like the mother never excepted the oc and placed her anger and resentment of h's A onto the oc therefore passing that same anger and resentment of oc on to her own c's. again i feel that is a sad situation.
i disagree with you that although kids do make up their own minds on things they ( we are talking young kids) do all take their lead from their parents. just as your friends will and would have taken your lead had you accepted oc into your life. you see you took the lead of your now very close friends who were in this place before you. they were very much opposed to it and you followed suit. i will bet you a dollar to a donut had they been accepting of their oc's you would be too. maybe not but then again remember i am one who has thet kind of faith. it's not just in kids.
let me ask you this question since you say that all have to pay consequences for their actions.
what happens when one of your teenage kids injures or kills someone in a car accident where alchohol is involved on their first experience with it? or maybe just one of their good friends has this misfortunate situation happen to them. now are the consequences that they simply go to jail for manslaughter and you disown them as they are now possibly murders? what if the accident took the life of an innocent mother or father? or is there forgiveness somewhere in your heart for them?
after you answer those questions as if it were one of your kids who was under the influence of alchohol turn it around and ask yourself if you could find forgiveness of someone else who took the life of one of your loved ones or maybe yourself. could you or your children find forgiveness of that individual. understand that we are talking of a teenager who this is the first time they drove under the influence of alchohol. as surely we all would have much harder feelings if it was an adult with an alchoholic record.
i think that what i find disturbing is that i think we all understand the differences between a bh's choices and a bw's choices. especially when there are already c of the marriage. but you seemingly have absolutely no tolerance for c in any of these situations.
Pops,
As far as humiliation goes.... my parents divorced when I was a senior in highschool. My Mom had om at every holiday dinner along with my father and THAT was humiliating.
If I had a friend over I remember being totally embarrassed trying to explain and seeing horror on their faces and disbelief that all were there.
There was great resentment toward om for years until he died in the 80's.
When I first dated my H back then he'd comment on how "weird" that was. See? Humiliation comes when family situations are way different than the norm.
Had I married my H and he had previous c's I would have had an opportunity to know and see them first. I would not be humiliated. It would be normal and easy to explain, right?
So what I THINK women here are trying to say is the reason for oc is enough to be embarrassed by having oc around. Oc is as unfortunate as the rest of the affair couples family, be it wife, or children. They all pay a price and move on. Why on earth should the rest of the family continue to be hurt if they cannot accept oc? Apathy is what I use to describe this. Not hate. Just no more feeling for oc than a strange child in a mall or restaurant. See?
H and I decided we wanted our old life back. Actually now all this time later he said he was in a fog over oc and now thinks things are much easier for everyone including ow's c's who still give my H "the finger" if passing by in a car. (the oldest one does)
For us it would have been a disaster and humiliating as for explaining why oc was with us and how oc arrived in the mix.
You can also forgive, but it doesn't mean you'll forget.
I'm 3 years into this and can say without a doubt I would have ended up leaving my marriage if we saw oc regularly...
Hope I made some sense.
BTW I've long forgiven my Mom but haven't forgotten how I felt back then. When om died, we had normal holidays again, just our original family. It's just how I felt.
love
Debi
Alcohol deaths are a sin too, but I'd have to say I'd forgive my son, but allow the law to do justice to a horrible injustice. Just no death penalty from this liberal, not even if I were murdered. My H knows to speak on my behalf and tell the court I was totally against that... just in case....
<small>[ December 30, 2003, 07:51 AM: Message edited by: gemini1 ]</small>
Pops, I respect that you are trying to say how wonderful and great contact is. However you seem to be implying since we choose no contact and that my children find the whole situation disgusting, that is wrong? Just what are they supposed to view an affair as?
As for having us incorporate oc into our family, I ask again, why should my children have to go throught he embarrassment of having oc around?
I disagree with contact. It is hard on the children of the marriage, and asking quite a lot from the faithfull spouse. It is putting the needs of the oc above everyone else, and that is wrong.
Pops, a few more quips.
My friends are not living with resentment and pain. They have healed and moved on.
Aslo, I find you blaming a wife, who had teenage children who were angry and humiliated that their father had his oc at the family home, totally unacceptable. You are blaming the wife??????? Her children were totally embarrassed that their father had a baby, and you blame her? Where on earth do you get that from? THEY, his children and his wife DID NOT CREATE THIS MESS. He did. He then expected his wife and children to have contact and they clearly did not want it. HE was wrong. His children lashed out in anger, as children do, and they finally came to the boiling point. His wife couldn't take the hostility any longer and told him to leave. AND YOU BLAME IT ON HER? I think your sensibilities are warped. She and her children of the marriage had every right to their feelings of disgust. Yet the only thing you find sad is that the children were mad at their dad? Don't you find it disturbing that the oc was put above those kids? Don't you find it disturbing that he would assume his wife and kids would be happy about oc? I really feel sorry for you. I'm not sure if you are trying to convice me how great contact is, or if you are trying to convice yourself how great contact is. I really feel sorry for you and your kids having this force into your lives, with no say so at all.
I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I will never see the reason for contact. I will never believe in selling out the children of the marriage to the benefit of the oc.
Lets just stop the banter!!!!!!!!
Lynn,you will always see thru your eyes only, i think it is sad that you cannot see anything else. you have not as usual listened to what is being said. he never blamed anyone....but as usual your anger is all that comes thru which prooves a point that you havent forgiven, that does not mean forgotten. i am sorry that you cant see that it can work both ways. you are always telling people that yours is the only way. and everyone else must be living in a fairy tale land. well our lives are not perfect and sure we made choices that have hurt, but things are working out, and if that is what you call fairy tales than so be it, i would rather live in my world in peace than in anger and blame all the time. oh yes this is fullhouse speaking. so i am sure you will either ignore or say something sarcastic because of who i am. i just wish their was more of an open mind that some times they are different answers to situations.
JFTR I don't give my son explanations (I can't even BEGIN to explain this) but I try to help him through HIS anger, mood swings, pain ect by trying to point out the positives. HE FEELS PAIN from this and having OC in our life is a trigger and reminder for him too. All I'm saying is that we can't deny that BC hurt too.
I think that is all lynn is trying to get across too. I've only gotten the impression that she agrees w/ whatever decision is "best" for that particular marriage/family BUT they shouldn't be "guilted" or "bullied" into C if that really isn't right for thier situation.
OC is not a permament fixture in our household. OC HAS to go back and forth between 2 completely different households. 2 different parenting styles, 2 cultures, 2 economic status, 2 different religious denominations, 2 different "positions" in each family (oldest in hers, middle in ours), 2 different family sizes....2 totally different worlds. This is hard on her too sometimes.
This makes a HUGE difference to how our BC also respond to and w/ her. They do not interact w/ her all the time. When OC is not here---she's NOT here, then suddenly she is. This IS disruptive.
I can honestly say I try to treat OC exactly like my own BUT I CANNOT always do that because I know she is treated completely different w/ OW so I have to "cater" to her sometimes. BC are aware of this and bothered by it.
Just because we "forgive" someone does not mean we are obligated to hang out with and be friends w/ them. I could find forgiveness in my heart but not forget, I would expect justice. We do not have to deny something was wrong just because we forgave. Of course I will/would tell our children what daddy did was wrong. I don't want them thinking this is "ok" & "normal". It is not.
The decision of C or NC, I think is LESS about the OC and more about OW, MM & BS. Can you handle OW in your life forever? Does OW still want MM? Does OW want C? Will OW try to disrupt/hurt your family? THESE are the real deciding factors. This is the reality. These are the factors that have caused my H and I to regret C.
AND no one is perfect, I don't want my BC to feel like they can't be "real" or express their feelings, neg or pos. I can't deny to them that this was a painful thing and hide that from them. Of course I wouldn't share the detailed intimacies of this like I would a friend but I am not going to act like this is all "okay", it would be impossible for me and would probably, literally kill me.
I've at least learned THAT this past year and a half. I acted like C was all okay and inside I was dying. H and I were in denial about what this really was doing to our family. While everyone was telling me how "great a person" I was, how "strong a woman" and how I was "handling it so well", I was becoming more and more depressed, anorexic and suicidal, H was becoming extremely stressed, oldest son was having "depression"---a 10 yr old for gosh sakes suffering from depression!!!!! And OC (according to OW) is(was) becoming severely emotionally unstable,even OW says she was very stressed during the same time period and regrets getting us involved! All the while we're putting on our happy faces and displaying our best behaviour.
And your probably going to tell me that I made my child "depressed". Now that we are being "honest" w/ ourselves we are all on a more "even keel", it's okay to say we regret C, we are not "wrong", we are telling the "truth".
We are only telling you what our family has experienced. I imagine, somewhere out there, there are 3 adults making this situation work but I haven't met any. Why did I allow my family to suffer through this? Because I was thinking of "innocent OC" and forgot all about my INNOCENT BC. What!? Am I absolved from C and guilt because I "tried"? I would rather have avoided it altogether, like those who choose/chose NC.
That's all Lynn is trying to remind people of, they have CHOICES. Some people don't believe in choices they only believe in "innocent OC"!!!
Lynn & KT. I applaud you both for keeping this real.
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think that is all lynn is trying to get across too. I've only gotten the impression that she agrees w/ whatever decision is "best" for that particular marriage/family BUT they shouldn't be "guilted" or "bullied" into C if that really isn't right for thier situation.
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IMO...I agree no one should be guilted or bullied. Especially if they are the innocent parties here.
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Just because we "forgive" someone does not mean we are obligated to hang out with and be friends w/ them. I could find forgiveness in my heart but not forget, I would expect justice. We do not have to deny something was wrong just because we forgave. Of course I will/would tell our children what daddy did was wrong. I don't want them thinking this is "ok" & "normal". It is not.
The decision of C or NC, I think is LESS about the OC and more about OW, MM & BS. Can you handle OW in your life forever? Does OW still want MM? Does OW want C? Will OW try to disrupt/hurt your family? THESE are the real deciding factors. This is the reality. These are the factors that have caused my H and I to regret
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Very true statement above.
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I've at least learned THAT this past year and a half. I acted like C was all okay and inside I was dying. H and I were in denial about what this really was doing to our family. While everyone was telling me how "great a person" I was, how "strong a woman" and how I was "handling it so well", I was becoming more and more depressed, anorexic and suicidal, H was becoming extremely stressed, oldest son was having "depression"---a 10 yr old for gosh sakes suffering from depression!!!!! And OC (according to OW) is(was) becoming severely emotionally unstable,even OW says she was very stressed during the same time period and regrets getting us involved! All the while we're putting on our happy faces and displaying our best behaviour
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The very same thing happened to a friend, she acted as if everything was OK. This women had a nervous breakdown. This women had to remove herself, family from this situiation. Advised by her therapist. Is pretending worth your sanity? I don't think so.
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We are only telling you what our family has experienced. I imagine, somewhere out there, there are 3 adults making this situation work but I haven't met any. Why did I allow my family to suffer through this? Because I was thinking of "innocent OC" and forgot all about my INNOCENT BC. What!? Am I absolved from C and guilt because I "tried"? I would rather have avoided it altogether, like those who choose/chose NC.
That's all Lynn is trying to remind people of, they have CHOICES. Some people don't believe in choices they only believe in "innocent OC"!!!
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IMO...You are so right you do have a CHOICE. A right to choose NC and not be guilted as I see here.
Lynn I support you and others with NC.
this is full house again, sorry i am too lazy to change the name,
but does any one read what is written?? this posting was not about contact or no contact. hello can we back up again. why cant the questions that were asked be answered, why do you not read the words that have been written, pops isnt debating the c, nc. he agrees on that, that its the individual families choice, that wasnt the subject. sometimes i feel what is the use in trying to find out things or ask questions, it seems they get ignored so much. oh well, guess i wont write anymore--at least not this year.
so that i dont sound like a liar-----its only 11:24 california time at the moment,still 2003
i'm baack!!!!!!!! happy new year to all
gem,,,,,, first i want to start by saying this is not about c vs nc. it is about the lessons and attitude we pass on to our c's. you have never read a post from me telling anyone who has choosen nc that they were wrong. believe me i fully understand a bs's choice on that issue.
some here entertain the idea that i am pro contact because i have accepted grace into my life. well let me set he record straight for those who weren't here in my early days. my first choice in situations like my own ( where the A is discoveed very early into the ws's pregnancy. in our case about 4-5 weeks) would have been abortion. second would be adoption. third would be no contact with the father if that could have been GUARANTEED. but it can't short of putting him in the ground. which was probaly another option, although a good idea a poor choice from me.
i had no choice but to accept grace or take the highly probable risk of losing every day contact with my kids and placing them into a 2 house family.
so i could have had a very negative attitude towards grace (which if you remember) i had during fh's pregnancy, at her birth and her first 2 weeks or so in our home. i didn't hold her or help fh with her at all. i was holding onto my anger and disgust of her A and grace was the scapegoat.
well i finaly held her trying to comfort her because she was crying and fh was in the shower. that was all it took for me to realize that she didn'tdeserve to be the drum for me to beat in order to get rid of my anger.
one other thing that should be noted here is that my own children had two role models to choose to follow in trying to make their choices of whether to accept grace or not. fh's or mine. fh loved grace and it showed, obviously. although for my sake she tried very hard not to be over affectionate when i was present. i on the other hand would leave the room where grace was and walk away in th stores when people would stop by to see the baby.
my own c's asked me why i never helped with grace.
i will continue later gotta gonow.
I know what you are trying to say Pops. I do believe children get SOME of their attitudes from their parents but there comes a time when they make up their own minds. They also have their own feelings. Just because we "accept" something does not mean that children will automatically be ok with it.
Another example totally unrelated. A few years ago we changed churches from the one our oldest was born into to a bigger one. The first few weeks, if not months, he was absolutely miserable. He cried every week going to his class and he absolutely hated it. WE LOVED it and knew it was a right fit for all of us. No amount of talking, persuading or goading was going to change older child's mind. He wanted his old church back with the small classes and the friends he had been growing up with. Eventually he came around and accepted it and stopped being so upset, maybe because he had no choice.
See our attitude was one of loving this church and everything about it but he hated it and would even get mad that we were going there. Did we influence his negative reaction even though we had positive attitudes about it?
That's my arguement, that BC have their own feelings and attitudes about things too and about C or NC too, sometimes regardless of the parents attitude.
Oldest BC has "accepted" our situation but I don't think he is ready to actually "like" it yet. He can be nice and sweet to OC and even play w/ her sometimes, like kids will when they are together. That shows me that he is begining to accept the idea that this is our life now. BUT I can't deny the pain he has felt and endured by OUR decision to choose C. Oldest BC still avoids OC mostly, that is his way of dealing with it for now, I am not going to force BC to have a relationship w/ OC if he is not ready.
I know this thread is not a debate about C or NC. I know you were exploring the idea of parental attitudes influencing children's attitude towards C or NC and if the BC would fair better if parents had positive attitudes about C.
From our experience I just don't think so. I think there are many more factors besides just "attitudes" that determine if C or NC will work out ok for marriages and families. The attitude of the people involved is just one small part of the big picture.
HAPPY NEW YEAR!
<small>[ January 01, 2004, 12:39 PM: Message edited by: ktbunch ]</small>
Hey pops, you're right. I guess the very thing you were trying to say somehow evolved into telling you how our son came to his own feelings about oc. Apathy is what I'd say. He's a young man now with a wife and child. He feels that way as does our DIL. I didn't raise DIL, but she feels the same way. Shameful of how my H and ow were so reckless.
We raised our son with Catholic schools and church. With the Ten Commandments. Right from wrong. That is the "lead" he took. When H did this with ow, our son concluded his feeling about oc without my lead. His counseling sessions were filled with agonizing sorrow about NOT wanting oc in his life.
He does not consider oc to be related to him.
He will never seek out oc.
The best way to describe it is he feels nothing toward oc....apathy...on his own without our lead.
Now in the very beginning, H was trying to change his mind. He landed in the psychiatric ward at our local hospital with depression. Now if he took his fathers lead, that would not have happened, right? So during "fogland" my H created more problems and admits that today.
No, you never advocated C. I am sorry your thread went south with that as it was not your intention.
I said it because it was the end result of how our son feels/felt.
Happy New Year to you and FullHouse.
love
Debi
gem,,,,,,,, i understand what happened with your son and that is a shame. i think that in your case the (for lack of a better word) trouble came because your son was an adult who had already had his morals ingrained by his upbringing.
also he had a choice if 2 role model to follow, you or your h. if he followed you he obviously was to old to for you to hide any pain you were suffering. seeing the intense heart ache his mother was dealing with made it easy for a young man to choose nc in order help relieve the pain his mom was sruggling with.
on the other hand also at his age at that time when your h was trying to (i am assuming) convince him tha c was ok, he most likely felt your h was trying to force this on him. and you as a parent know how hard it is to disuade a young person anything. especially if it is causing pain to their beloved mother.
i understand that and appreciate your sharing your experience with me. i was just hoping to help those like kt who is obviously struggling with her older kids in the 11 - 15 age group and possibly open up a conversation with lynn about something other then contact vs nc.
you see with my younger ones they had the choice of following my lead of resentment or fh's. they choose to follow hers. which in turn enabled me to learn from them.
another thing that just crossd my mihd while typing this is that my kids were in a way lucky in the fact of the shear number of siblings they were growing up with. they all ready new that no matter the conception of grace there would be enough love and attention for all in our house. where a family with only one or two kids i can understand those kids not understanding that just because there is a new sibling doesn't mean they will lose their place in mom or dads heart.
i remember when fh was pregnant with our #2 son (my 3rd). she said to me she had no idea how she could find room in her heart to love another child because she loved our princess so much. i told her it as easy and for her not to try and divide the space in her heart, instead just to multiply it.
as for my oldest son and daughter who were very upset with fh's A. they both have forgiven (not forgotten) fh for her actions. neither one has any negative feelings towards grace. and although they have forgiven they still both know what she did was terribly wrong.
kt,,,,,,,, this is exactly what i am talking about.
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A few years ago we changed churches from the one our oldest was born into to a bigger one. The first few weeks, if not months, he was absolutely miserable. He cried every week going to his class and he absolutely hated it. WE LOVED it and knew it was a right fit for all of us. No amount of talking, persuading or goading was going to change older child's mind. He wanted his old church back with the small classes and the friends he had been growing up with. Eventually he came around and accepted it and stopped being so upset, maybe because he had no choice.
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you see with young children we as parents make decisions all the time that they don't like homework, curfews, which movies they are allowed to see and which church we will attend. that doesn't mean we are not considering their feelings on these issues just that we feel there is something more to be gained by our parental judgement.
what choice would i have had if say my 6 yo and 9 yo would have not wanted to accept grace. would their feelings have meant that i stand firm on abortion, adoption or divorce. what about the rest of the family. you see we are the adults and therefore must act like it and lead as such. sometimes life deals you dirt so you have 2 choices either lie down and let it cover you up or try and make mud pie. i choose the pie. and in that choice would take on the role of doing the best i can to make those kids who disagreed with our choice find the positive.
good luck with your family
this is not directed at you kt it is a conversation i had with a friend on wednesday. it has to do with shame and embarrassmnt.
he called me because h needed some work done on his house. his oldest son and my 2nd played ball together and graduated hs 2 years apart. i hadn't seen him in about 3 years.
he had no idea of what had transpired between fh and me or how our life had changed. we started talking about how many kids i had now. he has 3. i told him 8 with the youngest being 2. he got this puzzled look on his face because 5 years ago we had discussed our vasectomy's together. (sorry ladies but what else do men talk about with each other if not sports and their genetals) any how he asked, how? s i simply said that " fh had an A and had a baby fom it". yo know he didn't have a look of shock on his face or actlike OMG!. he justsaid oh andthe conversaion just went on about how do idal with ALL those kids. it was nothing.
you see i told him what happened with no shame and he just accepted it as no big deal. he followed my lead.
i think that there is so much of this type of crap and so many truely horrible things happening in the world today that people don't necessarily look on this as any world ending event. they ill tke from your attitude on this.
if i had made a big deal of the A i am sure we could have gotten into a huge "how do you deal with it conversation?".
i think k said something about taking more the one mistake to ruin your character and a life time to build one. i feel fh still has character as i have spent over 40% of my life with her and know that this was out of her character.
I fully understand about other poeple taking their "cues" from me on how to respond. I've had to deal w/ that over and over since all was revealed.
It's funny (now)but when we had to "tell" everyone (family, good friends) my H would reveal existance of OC and immediately in the next split second they always turned and looked @ me and I had to reassure them that "we" were ok and I already knew about this.
I just don't want my BC feelings discounted or the implication that C will automatically work if I just act a certain way. I think our family has acted these "certain ways" and we have all still been hurt and affected negatively by it. I have tried and tried and tried to avoid this pain for my family and I can't deny that it is there.
Yes, I think things will get better in time as we all come to terms with choosing this path for our life. I only regret choosing the C because of all the pain it has caused up to this point. That is why my posistion is now NC. My H and I have every intention of moving away if things do not improve as we hope. I think OW would really like that too. I think it is a decision all parties would be good with.
And I think things would have been very different had everything been upfront from the very beginning and maybe if we had been involved from the beginning but also who knows if our marriage could have handled it as well back then considering we can barely handle it now.
I know what you mean and I think it may be true for some things but just not in this case, it's an added complication w/ an older child AND an unwilling OW.
Concerning the OW, I had many opportunities to be the "adult" here and have taken them but I cannot control OW actions and she has not always chosen that. These are the different factors that can influence a decision of C or NC.
The fact is bad enough but throw in all these other variables and you can have a recipe for disaster no matter how much you try to be "positive" about it.
I think it would naturally work out better if the OC is in your own home. Having a great dad of my own (from birth)who was not a bio(but not due to A)I can really appreciate the love you have for YOUR daughter, grace.
Hi pops & fullhouse,
Good topic, pops.
I've learned a lot, even if it's gone off course a little.
I like what pops said about choosing to turn life's dirt into mud pie, instead of being buried by it.
It's evident Grace has such a nice family with all of you. I've wondered though, what is it like for her when she is w/ x-om's family? He is married, right? Does he have children? How does his BW handle it all?
I've been curious about this ever since fullhouse mentioned something about x-om seeing it as his job to "help" unhappily married women. He sounds like someone who has not tried to turn his life around like fh has.
Just wondering if Grace is treated so well when with him and his family.
Is it difficult to let her go to him? I would imagine it would be.
If these questions are too nosey, it's ok, no need to answer.
Hope the two of you had wonderful Holidays, and I wish you all the best in 04'.
Take good care.
~autumnday
autumn,,,,, at 1st it was very hard for fh to let her go with om. it was also har on me as i had become very attached by that time (grace was about 16 months). om was going to stay away until cs became court ordered and then he and his w wanted something for their money, visitation.
i was their to hand grace over as it was to hard for fh. we always trie to make it as easy on grace as possible. i would play with hr and make sure she was in a good mood when om arrived. as opposed to say waking her up from a nap by buckling her into a strangers car.
i can only assume that om's family treats her with a lot of love an attention as now she just walks over or lets him tak her with no crying. sometimes she still cries when fh hands her over. but those times are few and far between. between meand all our other kids it is very seldm that fh has to handle the transfers.
om has 2 kids with his w plus 1 step daughter. his kids are 11 and i think 4 and the sd is 14 or 15. she goes to school with my son and her mom says sd thinks my son is cute. this could turn into a real can of worms.
they all seem to traet her very good atpick ups and drop offs. i think that if they were not grace would have reservaions and cry when picked up.
i had about an hour talk with his w one afternoon when she came to pick up grace. afterwards i felt much better as i had never spoken to her before. we talked about views from both sides and that we each have to remember that there are many people involved that had no choice in creating this situation. also i asked her how she felt about grace. she replied that grace didn't do anything wrong.
grace goes for her first over nighter next weekend and fh has been on pins and needles for the last 2 months because of it. this has caused some friction between her and i as i feel she should be able to handle it better. grace will be picked up on saturday mornings as usual at 9 and instead of returning saturday evening she will stay at om's house until sunday evening at 6.
bottom line from what i see is that om and his family really care about her and treat her very good when she away with them.
on the other subject his kids seem very glad to see her and show no signs of depression or anger when they come to pick her up or drop her off. but i am not around them except for those brief times so i can't speak with authority. one thing i did ask his w during our talk was how their kids have accepted grace. she said they can't wait for her to visit. maybe they also followed a positive lead.
Pops, I can totally understand FH's feelings on letting Grace go over night. It will get easier as time goes by. The first few times my twins had to spend the night with there dad whom I was married to it was the hardest thing in the world. I called them often and kept telling there dad that if they wake up in the middle of the night to call me and I'd come get them. They were fine. Now later on they pulled that and sure enough he called me but by that time it was you know xh they are 4 years old, and been going to your house now for years and you should be able to handle this (after 3 seperate weekends of waking up to go get them). I think it's hard for any mother to let there child go especially that young.....mine were 3 when we split up. That was hard enough. She will get use to it......be patient. It's her motherly instint to do this. If you two would of seperated I'm sure she would of felt the same way even at there age....JMO.
Mary
pops~
I can understand fh being on pins and needles approaching Grace's first all nighter. I would be too. For good or bad, we women are kinda wired that way.
I admire both of you. I can't imagine having to "share" autumnboy with anyone, including x-om. Thankfully for us, he has never reappeared to see if baby was ever born.
It is good to hear that your x-om's BW is able to view Grace separate from the ugliness and the betrayal of the A.
Pops ,
I think Fh's worry is a normal reaction to a mother not being with her child over night the first time. Mothers tend to think no one else can do what they do with their own children, and while he may be a bio father, They do not and could not have the connection you and full house have with that child. I am not saying it wont come in time, but for now, Fh knows she is her security.
The first over nighter we had was so hard for me, it still is even after a year. She still has days she doesnt want to leave me, But I always encourage her and smile and make her feel as though its going to be a wonderful time[ then I pray it will be] It gets easier over time, and I am not any where near letting her stay two nights. But to be honest, after a day of a toddler in their house, I bet they are not ready for it either.
Something that helps me through the times is, Om and his wife, let her call any time she wants to. They have my picture in her room, and they send pictures of what she is doing during the day or night.
We communicate with each other, about what she does, says, eats, just about everything, and of course our little one is very vocal now and shares lots.
I used to make my self sick if she cried when she had to leave me, But om , on a few occasions would take her any way and call me a min down the road , and put his speaker phone on, and she would be just a talking away and happy as a clam.
Big difference in my worries... although I am one of those that will worry any way. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />
I am not trying to debate, I am just one of those mothers who thinks children belong with their primary care giver at night,at least till a certain age.
Unfortunately time will come when she is gone more than I want, and yes that is the high price we will pay for what has happened. So we hope and pray we make this a wonderful transition and continue to work together for the good of the children. ALL CHILDREN
Sounds like you and full house are doing well, I am happy to hear that. The day Grace goes over night, will be hard for full house, How about doing something busy with the other kids. Something you dont always get to do when you have a baby, Like a movie or a day of shopping with out a stroller. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
I stay very busy when my aby is gone. I dont give my self time to dwell on it all.
ntmo, autumn & mo5,,,, thank you for your kind words. i guess i should have said that i Wish she would handle it better. i know that it is hard on her. i remember when my oldest would come to visit for the weekend and how i felt on monday mornings after he had gone home sunday night.
we have 2 kids playing all star soccer and their tournament weekend starts next saturday. i am hoping that will help fh keep her mind off grace being away. since i am coaching the girls it will mean that she has to take our son to his games. he also has tryouts on saturday for baseball. so she should be busy running here and there during the day, but i am sure that saturday night she will be a wreck.
mo5,,,,, it is so nice to see you post and hear that things are getting easier for you. i don't think that om's w will ever allow a picture of fh in their house.
i just want to say that i miss your posts. we may have had some differences on some issues but it was your story that gave me the strength to try and make this work. when i was talking to om's w i said that i can't see us all sitting around the bar-b-q shooting the crap. her reply was "you never know". i know that will take more time for me.
i all ready know that i will be seeing om at the high school soccer games as his son and ours will most likely be on the same team.
om did the same thing when he would take grace in the beginning. a couple of minutes down the road if grace had been crying when they left he would call fh so she could hear that grace had stopped crying for herself.
Hi mo5,
long time no hear!! Hope everyone is well and doing good this new year.