Have any of you been in a situation or are in a situation where your children became atached to the op... And actually have a relationship with them, even though the op's and ws's relationship is desolved.


If so how are these visits going, do you find them benifical to your children? And how often does the op spend time with your children, and how is that aranged?

Basicly Im asking what you think is apropriate, and porductive for the children..

I don't feel at this time that cutting her out of there lives is benifical at all, but at the same time I would like to see the atachment level change to more of a friendship, and I feel that can only happen if the time is less then right now..

Also the ow is the mother of my step daughter and I would like to think her and the kids can be close with out it being weird for me.. As I hope my h's and my relationship grows even more so that when the baby is on bottles I can have a real relationship with her and become her real step mom and not just have that title becouse of a peice of paper...

Anyway, any sugestions , coments, etc, apreciated, becouse now is such a confusing time with there relationship over, us seperated, but kinda together, and of course all the conections, and intricities involved with raising emotionaly sound children... whew! My mind is raising with the "what if" facter as our situation is extreamly complicated at the moment...

How can you have it all? A close great friendship etc, with your spouse, open comunication etc.. Well adjusted children that feel people aren't disposiable, a close sibling relationship even though theres two mothers, and the ow involved with the kids becouse that relationship is emotionaly benificial to her out of love... How can every thing balance itself out, so our children get the best and our relationship has a chance to florish with out me being upset through us figureing this all out...

Personaly I feel that my h spending time with her and the kids together , even though he wants to keep the friendship with her for the babys sake and of course there friendship conection, is not sending the right message to her, and is going to eventualy confuse my children, becouse that will feel like "family" time, and of course will prevent me from feeling like I want to partisipate in our relationship... But my h at the moment needs space and time to figure himself out and feel he's making the best desisions for him.

I need objective sugestions, as I'm too close to the situation.


Thank you.

<small>[ April 04, 2004, 10:38 AM: Message edited by: *allofme* ]</small>

My kids are attached to XMM. They have known him all their lives. When Xmm comes by to see the 2 oc, the other 3 kids are out their playing with him also. There are times when Xmm will take a few extra kids with him when he takes the 2. All the kids call him Papa.

I honestly don't know how to feel in this situation. Its a mess that I created and don't know how to handle things or what is proper. I'm just trying to do what I feel is in the best intrest of the children at the moment.


As for H doing things on his own with her, family time as you said, I think it depends if he has told her straight out his thoughts on it. Xmm has told me before when I was with a few times for the park that he felt like a family. I didn't feel that way, in fact for me it was weird. I told him that we are not a family. It came to the point where he couldn't accept it so I seized going along with all the kids to the park/McDonald trips.

<small>[ April 04, 2004, 12:48 PM: Message edited by: Crazymum ]</small>

Crazymum, thank you for your post , Im sorry you still don't know how to feel or what to do.. I guess we are in the same boat so to speek..

If I may, can I ask how your h handles your xmm with the kids, and also how you feel about his wife being in your childrens life...

how are things aranged, etc... If you don't mind..

I have the same thread going on the general questions 2 forum, and it got kinda nasty there. Im glad to see Im not the only one that feels it's best for the kids...

Please wright back to me...

thank you..

allofme: I want to say I comend you on your thoughts over this. I wish you and your h all the best of luck rebuilding your marriage. You seem to be able to handle this and hopefully the ow will be mature and think of the kids as well and not play games with you and h and let you rebuild your marriage. IMHO it's up the adults to make it work...all of the adults. You can be a great stepmother to that child and maybe sitting down with the adults and setting the boundries would be a great place to start. I'm the xow who just had a baby with xmm, so I can't give you the advise that some of the other bs can that are going through this. As well, xmm wants nc with my daughter. But good luck with this and I'm sure this week other ladies will help you with advise.

Needtomoveon,

Thank you for your post.. That's how I feel it's up to the adults to make this work.. Who really knows what will happen, shoot were only in our baby stages of our relationship.. I have know Idia how things will go in the future with anything...

Im sorry the xmm wants no contact with your child, that makes me very sad.... And truthfuly I think it's selfish when the bs, (although it's painful) demands that nc be inforsed inorder to protect there marriage... But of course xmm could either be strong and go against it, or conform...

I feel for you and Im sorry.....

(sigh) Oh, puh-leeze.

Catnip,

Care to alaborate on your sigh?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by *allofme*:
[QB]And truthfuly I think it's selfish when the bs, (although it's painful) demands that nc be inforsed inorder to protect there marriage... But of course xmm could either be strong and go against it, or conform...

=^^= to elaborate....the BW's here have had OW's inferring that BW are "selfish" to request NC to take the time necessary to rebuild their marriages after an A since the inception of this site, and frankly, I grow weary of OW telling the "victims" (BW) of THEIR selfishness when the BW are the ones whose lives are destroyed by someone else's selfishness. It just seems so incredibly bizarre to me that ANYONE would remotely suggest the BW sacrifice her need and desire to protect her own children and marriage for any OC. I mean, it just seems so amazingly brazen and nervy for any OW to expect a woman (or man) who has been beaten senseless emotionally to buck up and absorb the fallout without any resistence whatever. And if they don't...they are called selfish! Stunning. Absolutely stunning. It would be preposterously hilarious if it weren't so damn sad.

I guess as long as this site is up and running, we will continue to get a new batch of OW expecting the BW to absorb the hits, suck it up that their lives have been changed forever without their consent and without a thought of how all this effects the BW and BC. But since your'e new, I don't expect you to fully understand the dynamics of all this yet.

Whatever your plight, I wish you well.


Edited for crappy sentence structure and lousy spelling.

<small>[ April 05, 2004, 08:07 PM: Message edited by: catnip ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Im sorry the xmm wants no contact with your child, that makes me very sad.... And truthfuly I think it's selfish when the bs, (although it's painful) demands that nc be inforsed inorder to protect there marriage... But of course xmm could either be strong and go against it, or conform... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I find that really funny as in our case, it was decided that there was to be no contact before I even found out.

My husband made that choice.
He chose to cheat.
He chose to give the baby up for adoption, ex-ow didn't want that. They couldn't agree on what was best so he chose NC.

I, for one, am glad he did as it enabled us to get back on track, work on our marriage and keep a disruptive and vindicative ex-ow out of the way.

There is no one size fits all in this situation.
I hope you find a solution that works best for you.

Twiisty

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> And truthfuly I think it's selfish when the bs, (although it's painful) demands that nc be inforsed inorder to protect there marriage... But of course xmm could either be strong and go against it, or conform...
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">*allofme*
I am curious. WHY is it selfish to want to keep your marriage in tact? Why is it NOT selfish for the OW to try to 'cement' her place in a MM's life, regardless of if there is an OC or not?

I do not feel that the BW is selfish. I believe that the MM and OW were selfish and caused this situation to take place in the first place.

We do have contact. We now have Primary Custody and the Contact with OW is through me only.
Had she been a stable, intelligent person... capable of really caring for her child... then I, too, would be considered a "selfish, bitter BW" because I would have insisted on NC or would have ended my marriage.

She had no rights to my husband and he had no right to bring this into our lives. BUT, it has happened and we are making the best of the situation.

As Twiisty said, No one answer covers each situation. Its not "textbook" as there are barely any books out there that cover Recovering from an Affair that produces a child.

I hope you find what works best for you and your marriage.

<small>[ April 05, 2004, 02:57 PM: Message edited by: Stacia_Lee ]</small>

Im sorry I offended so many of you, I really didn't mean too...

That is my opinon, you need not defend yourselves to me..

Im obviously a bs, and to feel there actions were unbelivably selfish....


But I belive children need to come first, and that means before the marriage aswell..

The ow in my situation , planned this pregnancy, she was very selfish, and obviously my h was too.. But what is in the past is in the past...

And regardless if our marriage fails or thrives, I have a lot of respect for my h for being there for his new daughter in every way.....


I realize theres no text book sulution for every situation.. Mine never seemed to fit well into the lables etc... And Im understanding to many people, even ow's, (perhaps not the one in my situation as much,becouse she is unbalanced). People make poor choices in there lives, and yes there choices effect others deeply...

We each have our own idiea about what selfishness is etc.. And that was my opinon, it doesn't mean that I wouldnt' be sensitive to anyone elses situation even if I didn't agree personaly with there choices.

I don't belive in abortion, but it doesn't mean I couldn't identify with someones emotional turmoal or how they got to the point where they made that desission....

Sorry my opinon offended some...

best of luck..

because you feel the child should come first is not offensive but the idea that any BS should disrupt her family WILLINGLY and unbegrudgeingly (is that a word?) IS offensive.

The stereo-typical OW says that BW are bitter and demand NC. That may be for a "stereo-typical" BW.

I have yet to meet one here. We all care for children which is why BW fight so hard to protect thiers! It is not hypocritical as stereotypical OW also like to claim, as much as it is hypocritical of OW not caring about BC while having sex w/ MM then when OW is pg expecting the entire world has to start revolving around OW's OC!

allofme wrote:How can you have it all? A close great friendship etc, with your spouse, open comunication etc.. Well adjusted children that feel people aren't disposiable, a close sibling relationship even though theres two mothers, and the ow involved with the kids becouse that relationship is emotionaly benificial to her out of love... How can every thing balance itself out, so our children get the best and our relationship has a chance to florish with out me being upset through us figureing this all out...
********
you can't! This is not normal which is why everyone struggles w/ it and it is so hard to make it work!!!!! Why would you NOT be upset? Your H BETRAYED you and made things even more complicated by producing a child thus now betraying your own children!!! Things will NEVER balance themselves out.

For the rest of your lives together or apart, H will have to take responsibility. Financially and emotionally. There is no balance. If you are together that financial support will come out of your budget, the emotioanl support will come out of time spent w/ you and your kids.

Personaly I feel that my h spending time with her and the kids together , even though he wants to keep the friendship with her for the babys sake and of course there friendship conection, is not sending the right message to her, and is going to eventualy confuse my children, becouse that will feel like "family" time, and of course will prevent me from feeling like I want to partisipate in our relationship... But my h at the moment needs space and time to figure himself out and feel he's making the best desisions for him.
*****
You are admitting and answering your own questions as to why this is so hard for you to understand. BECAUSE IT IS NOT NORMAL.

I think you are denying some of your own feeligns and anger about this and hiding behind your concern for OC and "keeping the peace".

Why is that? No one here has ever said it is an easy decision for a MM and BS to make. Like twiisty, my H made the NC choice before OC was even born and before I ever knew about it. Then when he knew of OC birth he and OW made that choice again. Later, H and I made a choice together for C.

A BW has her own family and children to think about it. Are you thinking of yours?

It is not normal and like you said, could give OW the wrong idea. Why wouldn't it give the wrong idea? Think about it. What idea did you have while H was playing house w/ you but having sex w/ OW? I bet you had the wrong idea of how your relationship was going right? We ALL did!

Why are you denying the WRONGNESS of this situation and trying to deny how upsetting this may be to you by trying to figure out way to make it appear ok and right and trying to convince yourself.

It's ok to be raging mad @ this situation and the unfairness of it all.
It's unfair to YOU.
It's unfair to BC.
It's unfair to OC.
YES IT IS!

Now, in your situation, NC is not really an option. Go ahead and get mad @ that! You don't even have a choice in this matter. That sucks! Your H is acting like he has 2 wives!!!

I understand that H can't walk away from this situation in any way since he has another child from OW. OK.

But you need to admit your feelings and let them out. It seems like you are trying to be something that you THINK you SHOULD be. This will not be healthy for you.

You need to let it out and then you and h can move on and begin to heal. You need to admit that this was a raw deal you got.

Don't try to pretend that it will all just be Ok and work itself out. IT won't.
You guys will have to work it out and set guidelines and boundaries.

Your kids have the very potential to learn that vows don't mean crap! IT only matters what YOU want @ the time, doesn't matter who or what it is as long as you are getting what you want and are happy. And that there are no consequences and that a good wife puts all her feelings aside and lets herself get run over and it's all OK!!!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

IS this what you want them to learn from H? from you?

Set up a visitation schedule. There will be NO "family time"! H family is w/ YOU and only YOU. OC can have "visitation" w/ H and this will include YOU NOT OW. That is a consequence.

Everyone has consequences. There is no perfect scenario. Your fantasy of the perfect happy family w/ unscarred children is gone. It has been shattered for ALL of US but we pick up the pieces and BUILD NEW DREAMS! You can do that too.

I'm sorry but I think there are some things here that you are NOT FACING.

This will only hurt you more in the long run if you do not face it.

Now I hope I have not offended you but I am only telling you what I see, my impression that I have gotten out of your posts here.

Don't be scared away. I am not easily offended and if I am reading you wrong then I welcome your correction.

Sigh. Here we go again. Why would you think there is anything remotely normal about this? No matter what you do, this is not normal.

As for the ow/oc, their wishes and needs do not and never will come before the needs of the wife and the children of the marriage. Why should they?

As for the wife "demanding" no contact. Why not? If that is what the wife wants, and the husband agrees, it really is none of the ow business. Why should the wife and her children be expected to alter their morals and their happiness to accomodate this mess they did not create. Everyone gets a piece of the hurt pie, oc is just one of many who get to feel it. The needs of the oc mean nothing to me at all. The only children that I need to worry about and to raise are my own. If my husband had wanted contact, then we would have had a huge issue to work out. I would not have stayed in the marriage had he wanted contact. Your assumption that the BW is somehow the one in the wrong is simple minded and weak.

May I ask you, where is your backbone? Your husband and ow wreak havoc all over and your only concern is for the oc?? Where do you say what YOU want? What is best for YOU?

As for sitting down with the ow as ADULTS? That is simply the dumbest thing I have ever read. Did the ow give you a call and ask if it was ok to have sex with your husband? Sorry, if the ow was so full of care and concern, as and adult, for the well being of the children already here, she would not be finding herself pregnant.

I disagree 100% with ever giving the ow so much as a fleeting thought, beyond writing the child support check. What a crock.

Guys I was raging mad! I was hurt , I was destroyed.. I filed for devorice, after I asked my h to move out! We fought with eachother constantly about our own children and the fact that I didn't feel the children should go over there for visitation, untill the roles, and situation was clean cut... After the devorice... There were batles, tears shed every day.. Many mixed emotions... Anger becouse my children would be enevibaly efected by this, and might have a misconstrued reality of marriage, of comitment. I was afraid they would look at there father differently, feel jelouse of the oc, etc... And of course there was jelousy.. Jelousy because I was only mother of his children, jelousy that she would be giving him a new child and I would not, jelousy that the children would veiw there life there as fun family time... And for awhile it was like that, they hated comeing over to my house, wanted that life...

When the baby was born , I had to send my children off for the day becouse I was ready to explode with all of the conflicting feelings I was haveing... I felt love for a child I never had layed eyes on yet... Anger tward the ow for planing this pregnancy, without my h knowing, and robing the choice from him and putting my children in a position that will confuse them enevidibly at some point... I felt jelouse that he was in the delivery room with her, supporting her, but proud at the same time becouse he was being a good man..

We are not sure what were doing yet with us, which is why there are no plans at the moment to move back in with eachother.. We will probably need years apart if we are to ever have a helthy relationship again, and that might include finalizing the devorice. We are seeing where this is going...

Im not setting any boundries for him , that's the whole point, we both need breathing room.. If he continues to make choices I can't live with then I dont' have too, and our marriage will end..

I know this is not a normal situation, of course it's not.. But I'm trying to figure out how to make more then the best of it and stay possitive, that's my choice... I will try my hardest to raise the children with the same moral structure we did prior to all of this, Im not sure if it will work, I don't know what will.. I never asked for the affair to happen, or the pregnancy.. But it did... And it has to be for some sort of reason..

I have grown alot as a person through this strugle, it has been a long one belive me, and a hard one... Im not angry anymore.. I spent years being angry well before the affair started and Im not wasting anymore of my life being angry.. I take each day, by day and figure out how I feel about things...

This situation is something at the moment that Im choosing to be involved in.. And the only reason being that my h and I have takeing great strides in our friendship primarily and possibly building a strong foundation on a better healther relationship...

I would not literaly sit down with the ow, I do not like her for more reasons then you would care to know, most are not becouse she had an affair with my h, ironicly enough.. I agreed with the other poster that the adults need to figure things out.. Me and my h, and my h and her.. Not all of us together..

I have let my anger out, I am beyond that, and every time I start thinking about everything I could be mad about for the rest of my life, I stop and start thinking about something else.. I have to or I would go insain..

And Im not thinking of the ow in any way shape or form, I mentioned that it was benifishial to her simply becouse at this moment I don't feel like there is an alterior motive for her wanting to see our children... I might be wrong though? I give her no curtisisy, she discusts me... This is all about the kids...

I want lots of things that we are not ready for, and truthfuly wouldn't feel right yet.. For one, I couldn't live with all of this in my home.. I comend those of you that have and are.. I am gratful that we are seperated and I can say to my h, you need to figure out how you want to handle things.. I make sugestions of course, but he can take them or leave them.. And the pressure is of of me to "make" this relationship work.. I don't want to "make" it work, I want what ever is real, if that means we shouldn't be together so be it, if we are able to work it out great..... We did the quick fixes over and over and I feel that has done more damage to our children then him incorperating them in the ow's life prmaturly... I need space, and the ability to walk away if im not ok... And so does he...

Regardless we are raising our children together, adn they have a half sibling.. And I wanted to hear from others that were in the same boat.. Maybe get sugestions, or hear horror stories, or things to be leary of.. How did you make things work, why didn't they etc... What ever you think would help...

Me being on the defencive is not helping.. I've made my choices.. It hasn't been easy, shoot on another board I posted on for a long time, I think I was the most lost one in the bunch.. A new delema every day... And here to about a year ago... I have surched and found a peace from me, and a streangh that I didn't have before.. A shureness of myself and my indiviguality.. And that is why maybe I think I can handle this relationship even after all of this, maybe that's why I've found forgivness I never knew I had, maybe that's also why I could let go and be ok... Im not afraid of being alone anymore, and I choose not to dwell on all of the bad in my life.. Theres no way of changeing the past.. And for that matter, even though it's been the most horible experiance for me, I have grown from it a better person, a more spiritual person, and I am grateful..


" Your assumption that the BW is somehow the one in the wrong is simple minded and weak. "

Im a betrayed wife, come again? I wasn't talking about anyones situation in perticulare, I personaly do feel that all the children including the oc need to be thought of.. And everyone can choose what ever they want, a bs can choose to stay or go, the ws can choose contact or not.. Whatever.. But regardless if I could ever except the oc into my life(which I do with open arms,and it pains me that Im not a part of her life), I would be disaponted if my h didn't... That's just me, and obviously Im not the norm.. And that's ok with me...

It's not like im not facing all the what ifs, I am , and it's scary , so I live in the now.. At this time things look good, but long run I do not feel it will work out, I hope it does, but I'm not blind.. Things would have to be very different , and much time would have to pass, or situations altered by my h's own vilition, for me to feel at ease, and say with confidince , were in recovery.. We are not, we are at the beginging, and not of even recovery, becouse with that comes a sence of secureity or knowing that both has chosen eachother again. But I love him deeply, and I see him in a different light then before, and Im proud of him in many ways, I had to let go of the past, and stay focused on the present.. The now, is very differnt, and I have to rimind myself of this often...

Sorry I struck many nearves.. I know everyone hear has made hard desisions..

<small>[ April 06, 2004, 06:33 PM: Message edited by: *allofme* ]</small>

allofme...

While I disagree with your reasoning, I respect your right to feel these things. If it works for you, then that's great. More power to you. You'll have no argument from me.

One thing I would like to address though, is where you stated that you might need years apart to get your marriage or relationship back together and I just wanted to offer you a word of warning....it is extremely rare for anyone to fix a marriage if you do not live in the same house and have daily interaction and live your lives together experiencing all the joys and sorrows, the good, the bad and the ugly. You'll lose that connection, that involvement that is so crucial to sharing/bonding within a marriage. Couple that with your complacency and you might as well just head off into the sunset creating your new life by yourself. This is Marirage Builders and I am assuming you're here because you want to save your marriage...not end it. Just my obsevation and opinion.

I truly wish you well and I hope that you get some counseling to help you with what seem to be some pretty far-fetched and misguided notions that could ultimately be your undoing...and that of the kids. And I do not mean this in a nasty or disparaging manner in any way...I am just kind of alarmed to see someone take such a fatalist attitude when so much is at stake.

I think it is noble for you to have this abnormal pull towards OC and your desire to care for OC is admirable. But, OC will have his own mother, aunts, uncles, grandparents and perhaps other sibs and relatives and you being in the mix might make it confusing and weird for OC and OW's family. It might be healthier for you to forget all about OC and just concentrate on yourself and your kids and let the others take care of their people. It might help you and your husband determine whether or not reconciliation will work for the two of you without all this distraction of OW/OC. If you do not set boundaries, there will eventually be nothing to set boundaries for. It sounds like it is your choice and you are choosing to do absolutely nothing aond let the chips fall where they may....it's a weird thing to see a woman abdicate her power and I wonder about your motives...like...are you subconscieously hoping your husband will leave for good? Just musing here. Anyway, good luck to you.

And, I don't think you've offended anyone...we are used to intense debate here at MB and this is all this is...it takes a lot more than a disagreement of opinion to send us all into a frenzy. Don't worry about hurting anyone's feelings. We are all here to speak our mind or how else would any of us learn anything?

Catnip =^^=

<small>[ April 06, 2004, 08:23 PM: Message edited by: catnip ]</small>

I agree with Cat.

I do feel sorry for you. You seem to want to do what is "right" for the oc, not really thinking what it is that YOU want or need. What it is that is best for YOUR children.

You need to really think this out and look at all the angles. OW wants to see YOUR kids? Did I read that right? There is absolutely no reason whatsoever for her to even look at your children let alone speak to them.

I hope you can find peace at some point. But please remember, your husband and ow created this mess, it is not up to you or your children to make it right.

I don't see how getting on her for her desision on what is going on is right. Its her life and just like everyone else her its her choice to decied what to do.

the one problem with living in the NOW and saying that you cannot change the past is that, that attitude assures that history will repeat itself.

if we never try and correct the problems that have occured in our lives we will live them over and over.

what's with the deal that ow can be involved in your kids lives and have influence on them but you are not allowed to be around oc even when you are with YOUR h?

<small>[ April 07, 2004, 09:17 AM: Message edited by: pops ]</small>

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Crazymum:
[QB] I don't see how getting on her for her desision on what is going on is right. Its her life and just like everyone else her its her choice to decied what to do.

=^^= No one is "getting on her", Crazymum. In my post I told her that while I don't agree with her decisions to abdicate/comply whatever, I respect her decisions and she'll get no argument from me, followed with warnings and alarm bells...for her to look at the flip side in case she wasn't aware of the pitfalls.

My crystal ball is out of the shop...it's just what I see.

ok I think I'm starting to get it now. I will respond on private.

I probably am the guilty on for getting on her. She had me in her corner until she said something about the BW's demanding no contact. That is also a personal choice, and a viable one. I hate to see her dragged into the "whats right for the oc" and totally devalue herself and her own children in the process. She will wake up one day bitter and angry. NOW is the time for brutal and open honesty. As long as all the cards are up on the table, hash it out. Maybe the marriage will work, maybe it wont. But at least it will have a chance if EVERYONE is honest. Her husband can't force her to have oc in her home, anymore then she can force him to not have contact. Those issues need to be hashed out, discussed and agreed upon by both. If not, there is a problem that will not just dissappear with time.

I hate to see any BW get dragged along this process, and not let her own voice be heard as to what she wants and doesn't want in her own life.

I went over to General and read your thread you started on the same issue. Seems like you were given the same advice,thoughts, etc. as you have here. Yet you continually fight what you read. Which of course is your right, but why ask what people think then turn around and bash them if the answers are not want you want?

You have decided that your ok with your husband cheating on you, as it is "his choice" to do so and you are not holding on to him by a leash. You sound like a OW trying some passive aggressive Bullcrap.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by LynnG:
[QB]
You have decided that your ok with your husband cheating on you, as it is "his choice" to do so and you are not holding on to him by a leash. You sound like a OW trying some passive aggressive Bullcrap.

=^^= Lynn....Several of us here were wondering the same thing becasue it sounded so strange, so we checked into it and find she's the real deal. "Allofme" is not an OW and is definitely a BW but with a very different POV, I suppose.

Cat =^^=

Ok then, I wasn't going to post back to this thread, but I had to after reading all of your replies...

I still stand by my opinon that it is selfish to put a demand on the ws of no contact with oc.. In order to save the marriage.. If the ws desides on his own then whatever. And who ever said they feel sorry I haven't been looking at what I need and something to the effect of my h expecting me to except oc, is also not true to any degree...

My h was an oc, and it bothers me that his father tossed him aside... Ok sorry but that is reality for my situation... He was an oc, never had contact with his father or half siblings... His mom was obviously a ow...

I never said anywhere, nor do I understand where you got the idea I am or have put the needs of the oc in front of my childrens needs.. Becouse I haven't... Currently I personaly don't have a relationship in the slightet degree with the oc.. My children do, and I want them too, and yes I would love to be apart of her life.. Selfish me, gees..

I do live in the now pops, but I have learned from the past, and Im not looking through rose colored glasses about my situation, my marriege will probably fail... I just hope that at least our friendship continue, becouse I love my h deeply dispite the amount of heart I've experianced as a result of his selfish actions...

I never said I was ok with him cheeting on me, are you kidding, if you were with me through all of this you would have seen me in a whole different light, this is 2 years later and not of him living in my home and me pasivley saying honey don't cheet please, and I don't understand how you got that impreshion ether,lynnG... I have stood up for myself over and over, and desided to get a devorice becouse I was done, to my suprise we might have a chance to save it. If I am again proven wrong then I'm done... I

Im not passive agressive, just tierd... I am worn out, and if this is just the same old same old, have his cake and eat it too deal, then Im done.. None of my resoning is like a ow, I relize there are many emotions involved not only my own.. And I have the ability to look through other peoples eyes, and try to place myself in there shoes, to understand them better..

I just wanted some input from others in my shoes with haveing an oc , and trying to salvage a relationship..

I know I hit a nerve with the fact that I mentioned the ow will probably still be involved with our kids, but it's the truth, and I wanted to see if anyone else had a situation where this worked... I don't need to say again why I think now is not the time to change that....

And pops yes she doesn't want her daughter around me, but my h still brings her by when he can.. I'm not expecting her to be mature about everything, but I hope she will be....

And yeah Im the real deal...

Again I will ask, why are my veiws so threatning...

Is everyone who is different, or has a new spin on an old situation, ostrisised here, so everyone who is left all thinks alike?

<small>[ April 07, 2004, 08:04 PM: Message edited by: *allofme* ]</small>

Is everyone who is different, or has a new spin on an old situation, ostrisised here, so everyone who is left all thinks alike?

uh no, that is the "other" board!

I couldn't resist that one.

Everyone is allowed to do what they want and think what they want.

Lynng is here to point out to BS that they do not have to "jsut accept" things to save a marriage, that is all. She is trying to get BS to understand that they ahve to be honest w/ their feelings and opinions NOT force their opinions on WS jsut like WS cannot force C on BS. that's all.

When I first came here I thought C was something we "just had to do"! I never realized I had a CHOICE until Lynng pointed it out to me. I had to face what I was so angry about and crazy about.

She tries to warn BS to be upfront and honest now before it blows up in your face--that's it.

That's what was happening to us, our entire family was in chaos and failing each other and I am the first to admit I was NOT doing my job as a MOTHER of protecting my BC and they suffered.

That is why I also agree w/ lynng now, that NC is the best choice. It will not be everyone's choice and that is ok. We jsut wnat you to be VERY aware of what you are getting into and then whatever your choice is, we can support you through it.

Like I have also mentioned we do have C w/ OC and are taking steps to avoid MORE pitfalls and to be more aware of signs of trouble.

We do not want to make the same mistakes again and will never sacrifice our BC when STOW tries to disrupt our lives again.

There are no "how to" books out there for those of us in this situation so our main source of advice and guideance is only those who have gone before and you can find those here..on both sides!

We are here for you.

Maybe you can look @ your H bio-dad in another light. Did your H suffer, sure, do you think MM W and BC suffered too? Because they did. EVERYONE did NOT just your H as an OC. Don't you think MM may have had GOOD reasons for choosing what he did to H?

Think about it.

<small>[ April 07, 2004, 10:12 PM: Message edited by: killjoy ]</small>

Actually dispit your atempt to make fun of me, I was speaking about MB in general with the comment you quoted in bold...

When I came here lost, over a year ago, I did get help from here, and most were nice and welcomeing.. Back when I was a wreck every day, and angry confused etc...

Im not here for that now, I came here for a connection with others in this situation...

"Lynng is here to point out to BS that they do not have to "jsut accept" things to save a marriage, that is all. She is trying to get BS to understand that they ahve to be honest w/ their feelings and opinions NOT force their opinions on WS jsut like WS cannot force C on BS. that's all."

I agree with this statment , so what's the problem? I belive I said clearly this is something I wanted, many times, and I also said that I would want a relationship with the baby even if our marriage fails, which it probably will becouse we both destroid in our own ways. She will feel like family to me regardless as my h will feel like family regardless, and it has nothing to do with the ow, and everything to do with the bond I feel with my h...

"We are here for you."

How, everyone has been critisising my desishions. Not trying to understand my point of veiw,and relizing this has been a hard road for me.


"Maybe you can look @ your H bio-dad in another light. Did your H suffer, sure, do you think MM W and BC suffered too? Because they did. EVERYONE did NOT just your H as an OC. Don't you think MM may have had GOOD reasons for choosing what he did to H?"

In another light? I wouldnt' want to look at him in the dark!! My h never had a father figure to look up to, to guide him, to encourage him, to help him in any way shape or form. His father played house with his mother, got her pregant and left her to raise him alone.. I do not respect that in any degree.

The fact that his marriage, which failed anyway, was more important to him then a child he help created, is unbeliveable! And to put a group of children born into a marriage above one out of one is just discusting to me... Children are children and they can't help what sercamstances they were brought into.. They still need parents! My h needed his father in his life, if he had him perhaps he wouldn't have been doomed to "follow" his footsteps. I admire my h for being there for his daughter in the same capasity as he is for our children... I admire that greatly!

To put one child in front of the other is wrong, I don't care if everyone is up in arms over this post, you have all poked at me and I am being honest here..

To deny my h's child would be me denying my h himself, he didn't ask for it, and neither did his oc... And I will be there for them both....


Peace be with you all on this hard jerny...

[QUOTE]Originally posted by *allofme*:
[QB]
I still stand by my opinon that it is selfish to put a demand on the ws of no contact with oc.. In order to save the marriage..

=^^= That's fine. If that is your opinion, you are entitled to it. Just know that most here do not share your view on this. And that should be just fine with you. Remember this is Marriage Builders first and foremost.

I never said anywhere, nor do I understand where you got the idea I am or have put the needs of the oc in front of my childrens needs.. Becouse I haven't... Currently I personaly don't have a relationship in the slightet degree with the oc.. My children do, and I want them too, and yes I would love to be apart of her life.. Selfish me, gees..

=^^= Well then, you are a perfect example of how everyone's feelings and circumstances are different. And that's OK. In return, you should be more charitable towards BW's and not say they are selfish for putting their own needs and their own childrens needs first. You might think they are selfish, and that's fine. Go ahead and think that way. Again, you are entitled...as the BW are entitled to put their own first and desire NC.

my marriege will probably fail... I just hope that at least our friendship continue, becouse I love my h deeply dispite the amount of heart I've experianced as a result of his selfish actions...

=^^= You are a saint, allofme, and I am not being sarcastic. I could not be so generous.

I don't understand how you got that impreshion ether,lynnG... I have stood up for myself over and over, and desided to get a devorice becouse I was done, to my suprise we might have a chance to save it. If I am again proven wrong then I'm done...

=^^= Honey, no one is picking on you. We ALL got that impression and we were all alarmed because it sounded to us that you were not being proactive in taking care of yourself. Don't be defensive...you are not being attacked. We were just concerned.

Im not passive agressive, just tierd

=^^= We know that.

I relize there are many emotions involved not only my own.. And I have the ability to look through other peoples eyes, and try to place myself in there shoes, to understand them better..

=^^= That's a gift...or a curse. I can't decide which. Undoubtably, you will be blessed for your compassion.

I just wanted some input from others in my shoes with haveing an oc , and trying to salvage a relationship..

=^^= There are only a couple who have contact and rebuilding their marriages and they are both pretty successful at it despite the struggles, but they will be able to help you through some of this, I am sure.

I know I hit a nerve with the fact that I mentioned the ow will probably still be involved with our kids, but it's the truth, and I wanted to see if anyone else had a situation where this worked...

=^^= It wasn't a "nerve"...it was alarm for your well-being and that of your children.

Again I will ask, why are my veiws so threatning...

=^^= Your views are not threatening in the least to anyone here at all. Your views are pretty unusual becasue most BW's have had terrible experiences trying to incorporate OC intot their lives with miserable results, a lot of heartahce and disruption within their home and no one wanted to see yet another BW go through all that if it could be prevented. If anyone sounds alarmed, it is only because theya re concerned for you and your kids. Really.

Is everyone who is different, or has a new spin on an old situation, ostrisised here, so everyone who is left all thinks alike?

=^^= One thing you are going to have to do is buck up and not be so hyper-sensitive. No one is ostracizing you or expecting you to think like everyone else, because no two people think identically. But there are a lot of people here who have been in this a lot longer than you have, have had a lot more experience and can see the pitfalls ahead and were offering some very practical and sound advice. Isn't that what you want? Practical and sound advice? If people are telling you truths from their own experiences, doesn't it make sense to listen to them instead of discounting everything they say and then call them selfish? Take what you want and leave the rest.

Good luck, allofme.

Cat =^^=

<small>[ April 08, 2004, 12:54 AM: Message edited by: catnip ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by *allofme*:
<strong> Needtomoveon,

Thank you for your post.. That's how I feel it's up to the adults to make this work.. Who really knows what will happen, shoot were only in our baby stages of our relationship.. I have know Idia how things will go in the future with anything...

Im sorry the xmm wants no contact with your child, that makes me very sad.... And truthfuly I think it's selfish when the bs, (although it's painful) demands that nc be inforsed inorder to protect there marriage... But of course xmm could either be strong and go against it, or conform...

I feel for you and Im sorry..... </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">allofme, thank you, but I'm okay with that. It's a tough situation, but my daughter will be okay. I did not mean to start a board war when I said what I said to you. I just found it very interesting that you were thinking the way you were and thought it was great that you wanted to be a part of this child's life with the pain of your h affair attached to it. It takes a lot to do that. Life is not fair and you just go with it. Ya know what I mean? Good luck to you.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by *allofme*:
[QB] Actually dispit your atempt to make fun of me, I was speaking about MB in general with the comment you quoted in bold...

=^^= No one is making fun of you. Some people thought you might be an OW at first. Now we all now so everyone can relax and not get so excited and this goes for you, too.

I agree with this statment , so what's the problem? I belive I said clearly this is something I wanted, many times, and I also said that I would want a relationship with the baby even if our marriage fails, which it probably will becouse we both destroid in our own ways. She will feel like family to me regardless as my h will feel like family regardless, and it has nothing to do with the ow, and everything to do with the bond I feel with my h...

=^^= No problem. Your point of view is respected here, but if anyone sees a danger area, it is their duty to speak up whether you like what they say or not...that's just the dynamics of this site. We try to be hoenst with each other and point out things they may have missed. It is not intended to upset you, mock you or to give you a hard time. And it is up to you to look at any advice given as something that might be a possiblity and you can claim it or reject it as you see fit. The trick is to not get all sensitive and defensive about the reponses becaue they are offered with good intent. Once you realize that, you won't feel so picked on. You'll know that we are only concerned with your best interest.

How, everyone has been critisising my desishions. Not trying to understand my point of veiw,and relizing this has been a hard road for me.

=^^= We ALL know what a hard road this is becuase we have aALL been there, allofme. However, if the things people have been saying have sounded like criticism, you're looking at it all wrong. Criticism can be constructive and helpful...it's all in the spirit with which it was delivered. And everyone here was offering some real logical solutions. It would behoove you to at least pay attention and consider the ramifications of your decisions on a broader scale. But, I'll give you that your situation is completely different from anyone else's and perhaps you are more tolerant than most here too. And that's not such a bad thing if you and your kids don't get hurt in the mix.

To put one child in front of the other is wrong, I don't care if everyone is up in arms over this post, you have all poked at me and I am being honest here..

=^^= If you re-read your remarks you will see how your statements make it sound like you are constantly being victimized. YOU think putting your own child before your husband's OC is wrong, then that's your feelings and opinions. We (me, I) do not believe that at all...and THAT is MY opinion. And that should be OK with you. If we are all going to accept what you feel and believe the way you do, then you are going to have to accept what most of us feel and think and stop feeling sorry for yourself and stop feeling picked on and take these well meaning suggestions for what they are. You are free to reject anyone's advice and do it your way. It is only by doing that one learns.

To deny my h's child would be me denying my h himself, he didn't ask for it, and neither did his oc... And I will be there for them both....

=^^= Well, God bless you and help you along this difficult journey. We ARE here to help and we will continue to offer advice or suggestions if you ask. Regardless of your beliefs, we accept and respect them all. You are safe to post here and get feedback. In return, you can stop calling the majority of women here "selfish" simply because Contact with OC is not something that is feasible, for whatever reason, for them or their families. Fair enough?
Cat =^^=

<small>[ April 08, 2004, 01:19 AM: Message edited by: catnip ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You are safe to post here and get feedback. In return, you can stop calling the majority of women here "selfish" simply because Contact with OC is not something that is feasible, for whatever reason, for them or their families. Fair enough? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes Please!
I also accept your feelings and rights to what you believe,*Allofme*, even if I agree or disagree with some, it is still your right to say it.

With that being said, it does touch a nerve with me in regards to what Dr. Harley would call, "a disrespectful judgment". You are lumping me and my husband in your general statement about people being selfish. That is your right and your opinion.

It is also my right and my opinion to view you as wrong in that assessment....at least in my case.

In all sincerity, I hope everything works out for you. I also hope that you are able to continue to be a part of your OC's life in case your marriage doesn't work out. Usually after a divorce, the wife has no claim or part and parcel of any other kids other than her own. It would take your friendship with your husband to insure that you get to keep a relationship with OC.

I just ask that just because your H had a bad experience as an OC (and you didn't hear his bio-dad's side of it, only the OW MIL) that doesn't mean it applies to ALL of our situations.

I just felt the need to address that as it is a pet peeve of mine. The one-size-fits-all approach may work for the court system et al...but it doesn't work in the dynamics of the complexities of marriage and relationships....there are always two sides to every situation and it's usually subjective.

As everyone else stated, we are here for you and if there is something I can help you with, I'll do my best.

Sincerely,
Twiisty

I will still ask what about you and your children? I feel for you. I realize you are tired and probably quick to temper, been there, done that.

I read where you say that one child should not be put above other children. HERE HERE. I agree. The oc is not and never will be put above my children. His needs and wishes do no supercede the needs and wishes of my children, and so there is no contact. My husband and the ow created quite a mess didn't they? So now there is a child who does not know his father. THAT is not MY fault. I did not bring that child into this world, and his well being is of no concern to me. My husband had a tough choice didn't he? And it was us or the oc. He chose us immediately. That discussion was not me saying "either me or oc?" We did dicusss it, from all sides, and all angles. We did what was best for us, and our family.

I think you are having a hard time understanding both sides of the coin. The ow/oc vs MM/BW/BC.
What is in the best interest of the marriage and the nuclear family probably is not what is best for the oc. However, this situation hurts everyone, courtesy of the MM/OW. There is no reason why children within the marriage need to acomodate the oc. At what price? How are they expected to explain this child to their friends? Why should they? They only get to be children once too, or do their needs no longer matter? That is where we are differing. As a mother, my childrens needs come first. I feel that contact with oc creates to much drama and I wanted peace for my children. If that hurt the oc, that is his mothers fault and his father. Not mine, and certainly not my childrens. I was hurt by the affair. My children have been hurt by the knowledge that their dad cheated. The oc gets hurt by not knowing their dad. Sorry, the hurt is spread all around. My children are just as innocent as the oc, and it is my job as their mother to protect them. The oc does not enter into that equation. He has his own mother do look out for him.

In you situation, I think (and this is only my opinion), your children are living in chaos. Where are they learing that they matter? If you are going out of your way to accomodate the ow and the oc, who is accomodating your children? Where are they safe? Why not pull them back from any contact with ow to get some straight bearings? How are they learning that actions have consequences? Do you want your marriage? If so, worry about your own life, your own children and your own marriage first. Quit trying to be a conflict avoider and peacemaker. That is selling yourself short, and your children need you to be strong.

You say you are tired? Well no wonder. You are worried about everyone and everything but yourself. What do you need? Then really think about your children? Go from there. But for crying out loud, quit worrying about the step kid, the oc and the ow. They are not your problem. Take care of yourself and your children first and foremost. They need it. Their dad sounds lost, their mother sounds confused, they are shuttled between homes, then the ow is gone, then they have a step, now an oc born into the marriage. STOP THE MADNESS. Pull them back and have them focus on you as a family unit, focus on school, etc. Get some solid foundation under these children. Then slowly figure out what YOU want out of your marriage. Does your husband respect your wishes? Or does he just try to accomodate everyone? Are you being fake nice to avoid conflict? Where are your boudaries? What is your actions teaching your children? Are they seeing anyone putting them first? Or are they just expected to adjust to all of this?

This is a huge mess, lots of feelings and emotions all over the place. No decisions can be made and stuck with until you are on solid ground yourself. So be honest with yourself.

Personally, if I were you, my children would not be allowed any where near ow/oc at all. I would fight tooth and nail for that. Your husband was married to you, impregnantes another woman, goes and lives with her and your kids are dragged along? SORRY. If he wanted to see his children, it would be in a more suitable place, such as their home or a neutral place. He was your husband shaking up with an ow. Father or not, his flaunting the adultery in their faces had to have been confusing and hurtfull to them. They need to learn right from wrong, and no matter what color you want to put on it, adultery is wrong.

So, for starters, due to what happened between your husband and this woman, it would be in the best interest of your children to pull back for a while. Fight for them. Everyone is expecting you and your children to fix this mess. That is wrong too. You are teaching your children to shut up and take crap from anyone, to not stand up for themselves. You are teaching them that morals are not important. You are teaching them that they can go back on their word, and others will clean up the aftermath. STAND UP AND SAY NO MORE.

You are probably a very nice person trying to make the best of a horrible situation. I feel for you. But trying to make the best of it does not require you and your children to be doormats to your husband and his other family. You are all to good for that.

Now all of those posts were great!!!! Sometimes the conent of what someone is trying to say gets lost in the delivery...

Now that you mention it , the only time I ever saw anyone get nurmerouse, harsh posts have been when they were an ow... Im ushualy the one(on another board) that takes a different tone with them allso.. They don't relize there veiws on things are distorted, and if there on the board for help, why wast the chance to help them, I always thought...

I've been around along time, you can search my old posts, if you like... Unforchunatly at the other sight I switched to, I had to delet them from the memory.. I was tired of my thoughts etc, being thrown in my face from the ow reading them, convaying to my h what I wrote, and feeling ganged up on (during his nut job fase)... Or I would give you that name and sight to read....

I came here becouse no one there has an oc in there lives, with exception of one, who sugested that I come back...

I relize I looked complasent,or mabe to calm etc.. But to get to that point was a big strugle, Im forever changed from this experiance, but I will not spend my life being full of anger and haterid..

I don't feel victamized, from you all, I don't play the victam very well... But the way most worded there coments, or sugestions to me, were in a sarcastic maner , which obviously put me on defenceve, and I had to explain more about my situation... To show my resoning behind my desisions, I guess...

As I said already, I wasn't calling anyone here selfish, I thought it was a selfish act, probably some of you would see me keeping my daughter, as a selfish act... Which it has not been, so to each his own...

I respect others opionons even if I do not agree, but I would like to be respected aswell, and the tone in which people have posted to me has not been...

I apriciate your new posts, and probably will hang around here, becouse I really need to, even if I am the odd ball... I need this, but I will be posting on private, for obviouse reasons...

You are not an oddball. You are a woman who had her life ripped apart and is doing her best to muddle through.

Hey, I am waaay past all of the newness of an oc. I am here, at the request of another poster, to help the BW get back up and get going with their lives.

I do come across as harsh. But I am not here to hold your hand and coddle you. You have friends and family and even some really kind people here to do that. I am here to say "HEY YOU, STAND UP, GET TOUGH, START LIVING" I want all BW to be empowered and to understand that while they are a victim, they can certainly decide on the outcome. They do not have to sit back and take anymore crap from anyone. They have wants and needs that are right for them and let them be known.

So, you are not an oddball. You are you. We are all different, with different situations. We just don't want you getting steamrolled by this situation.

K???

I also wanted to coment that I didn't reserch anyones situation, I had no clue that contact with the oc was rare here...

Lynng, I might miss alot of points I wanted to coment on becouse the scrolling bar will now not alow me to see the posts I want to reply to while Im replying..

I am not the peace maker at all costs.. I do have a problem with putting others needs before my own, but that does not include the ow in any degree... My childrens needs are the only ones I put first now...

I have a need for my h to be clear headed, and have had time to figure himself out before we have anymore then we do.. That is my need.. I need him to be shure he is done with that relationship, dispite the contact they will be sharing with the oc, that's another need...

My children are involved with the oc, at there fathers house, it has been less time becouse she moved out, but I would never want them to not have contact with there half sibling... I have thought of this situation and how it might adversly effect our children, and still I feel it's benifits (since it is a reality) out way the cons...

My little one is climing on me at the moment so I will have to respond more later

Lynng, I guess we were cross posting...

Thanks for that post...


I apreiciate what you are trying to do, I do...

But I think I mentioned before somewhere, that my h and I have not had a conversation about how the oc will fit into our lives.. Becouse we are seperated and really really are not ready for more, just hopeing there will be something more in the future..

I have come up with these desisions on my own, he has not swayed me in iether direction... He wants me to be apart of oc's life, but it is not top priority at the moment to make that happen, top priority is to get the xow more out of his life, I see the oc, but rarely, just as much as his mother though... I haven't felt any pressure from him about anything, and Im not putting pressure on him about anything, I don't want too... He's a big boy and needs to make up his own mind how he wants to lead his life, if I we both want to lead our lives together then great, if not better to know now then to have another 10 years end up like this... Bottome line we will always be friends...

So Im not getting buldozed at all, Im sorry that that's hard to belive...

Dear EOM,

You and I sound a lot a like. Forgiveness and mercy come easily for us. Standing up for ourselves is not something that comes easy but it is something we have learned to do because we have to.

So what do you want to teach your children? What do I want to teach mine? We are supposed to be going on visitation with Precious (OC) in July. We will be taking our two boys with us. We have adopted them since OC was born, but we adopted older children. So.....exOW and I have worked out some sort of a working relationship. God forgive me, I even like her and if we had met in other circumstances, I think we might have been friends. However, I don't trust her, I don't want her to be my friend and I don't want her to be part of my kids' life.

What I want them to know is that when someone tries to torpedo your life--get your husband, steal your life--you may choose to forgive them, but you do so with the door shut. "I forgive you, but I choose not to be in relationship with you because you are a toxic person." I want my kids to know how to protect themselves from toxic people.

exOW pictures some sort of large extended family. She "can't wait to see them all playing together." Excuse me while I barf. I am her child's stepmother by the fact that she conceived a child with a married man--her husband. She wanted conctact for her child with my husband. Fine, she wants a father for her child--whatever type of father he can be from 2,000 miles away when we no longer have the money to travel out there 4x a year like we used to. With that contact, comes contact with me and a step relationship for her child.

What that contact *doesn't* mean (at least for me, Mr. J and our kids) is that she gets to be anything to our kids. She is not their step-mother, not a friend of the family, not anything except Precious' mother. Just like I won't let our kids call our neighbor's Aunt Sue and Uncle Jim. I don't create false family relationships where there are none. I need to be very clear how adoption is different from any other "created" relationship. Once one of our boys, when he was first learning the language said "Oh, I know what you are, you are my step-mother." I was deeply offended although I didn't show that to him. They were adopted into this marriage, not into some bizarre extended (non-) family. They will develop a realtionship with Mr. J's child, simply because their father wants to do what he thinks is best for this child that he conceived out of wedlock and is unable to raise. She is his child. I don't know if that makes her their sister or what it makes them to each other except that they share a father in common.

OK, so wasn't my husband as big a jerk as exOW? Absolutely, probably even more of a jerk since he was the one who had marriage vows to uphold. The difference is he made his apologies, did his penance, changed his life. The difference is that I had an 18-year marriage to him when I learned of his affair. I had almost 1/2 of my life intertwined with this man's--births, deaths, baptisms, cancer scares, my nearly fatal accident, his surgeries, our shared history of triumphs and tragedies. I had many reasons to learn to forgive him and I wanted to rebuild a relationship with him. Her, I forgive because God commanded me to, because it frees my spirit to not be holding onto hatred, BUT I do not want to build any type of relationship with her. We are not some sort of big bizarre family. She is not an exwife that I knew about when I married Mr. J. I simply need to protect myself and our marriage from a dangerous woman with very few scruples. She would be a poor influence on my children--in great part because she has not changed her life and her morals.

MJ