Not looking forward to posting here, but I do need a little advice.

I am an 'old timer' from MB - was here several years ago when my now ex-wife started having affairs and put myself and the kids through hell on earth. Not gonna rehash that one, but to say that I learned a lot from Harley's books, and the many great people on this site.

In fact, some time after the fiasco with my ex, I got in touch with one of the awesome people from MB and lo, we ended up married! It has been a wonderful time - we both committed to a marriages based on the principles Dr. Harley expresses, we have worked at keeping open and transparently honest with one another... At least I thought so...

This week however, I discovered that my wife has been carrying on at least two on-line affairs and possibly more. Looking back, I can even trace back to when they began.

It is difficult to post on here because my spouse is often quite active on the site - she is a great counselor and has helped many people recover from affairs. But there is the rub.

Here is the issue: I know I am partially to blame for this turn of events: I am very bad at supplying one of her emotional needs: I know what it is (admiration) but I have so much difficulty expressing it. Another major hardship for our marriage is that my health has gone downhill terribly over the past couple of years and I am almost unable to work at all - I have a hard time even doing laundry, etc. I have to work very slow and carefully, and there aren't many jobs available for me. This means that my spouse makes the larger portion of our money: something I am certain she resents. Having these two impediments makes it understandable why she would go elsewhere. Not excusing it, just comprehending the need.

Two days ago my wife left the house. At first, I thought she had gone for a walk - but the the hours grew, and I noticed that she had taken her purse. I knew all the money was in the bank, so I checked the account: she had pulled a large amount out. I was mystified - and I was putting things together quickly. I went to her computer and found a LOT of emails back and forth with several men - some rather explicit (I didn't read it - not into that much pain). I then found one that stated she was taking a train south to meet him. (Also an email to another man stating that she was going to be gone for a while and that she'd talk to him later...)

I jumped in the car and rushed to the train station: and found her sitting there (thank God the train was late or I'd be alone right now and she wouldn't be sleeping a few feet away). We talked for a bit and she decided to come back home.

Since then we are trying to work on spending time together - but I have to say, in all honesty, that I am so entirely skeptical of the whole thing that this feels more like a charade than an actual relationship. Personally, I am simply numb. I almost have no feelings at all - I'm not angry (I can see where I am not the most desirable spouse - although I work at that all the time) and I'm not sad. I almost feel like I could care less what happens now. I love my wife, and I pledged to love her - and I intend to honor that. But right now it feels like the entire marriage was more of a scam than the real thing - all the talk about love busters, love banks, commitment, honesty...etc... I wonder if I haven't been played. The only pain I felt was when she began chatting for 10 - 12 hours after getting off work - and completely ignoring me (often - lately - she's only gotten 2-3 hours of sleep a night). Our marriage was beginning to feel like one of those dates where one of the party was on a cell phone - sure, they can say they ate dinner with you - they saw you...but the entire evening was spent with someone else.

Working through a Plan A sort of thing right now: but I have to admit - I haveworked hard at this marriage: trying to be the man I should be (in spite of this stupid old body giving up on me...) and I've been very careful not to be controlling or manipulative (not that I ever have been - but these were issues in her past marriage) - I tried to give her free reign over her decision - they are hers, and I am not her owner. I've been very conscious of love busters: I've avoided all as much as I can - it has just seemed that I don't give her enough appreciation - which she certainly gets from sites like this, etc., where she helps people all the time.

Any advice wold be appreciated and deeply considered...

How old are you? Can this old dog learn new tricks?

Maybe try text her something positive. And call the OM. You know MB already -you are not quitting.

I would make it a requirement that she come clean here on MB, using her old username. I would also require an MB Weekend and consistent follow-up with the Harley staff.

If she refused, I would tell her to pack up and get out.

This isn't the "average" situation, as she was completely informed and educated on how to avoid an affair and still chose not to.

What was your old username?

Was your new WW a WW before?

Ditto on all of this, although I probably wouldn't know your old username, what is hers?

It actually really gets my goat that someone could advise both BS's and WW's and secretly be wayward.

I'm sorry that you are here.

Thanks, all, for the preliminary advice (and really quick replies!)


I would love to get to one of these seminars, but our finances don't really make that feasible: I have pretty much FT custody of my kids from previous marriage - and no financial support from space-mom, so we barely scrape by each month. I'll see if I can figure a way, however...


I'm really uncomfortable with letting that out right now - not because I'm bothered by my confused ramblings and panic all those years ago, but because I am still wary of damaging the work my wife has done here on MB - it will take me some time...


No - she was the victim of an unfaithful spouse who had MANY affiars...

I am mostly bothered here because I am uncertain of how much of this is my fault (I have to think that way, given that this is the THIRD time in my life that a spouse has had affairs - 3rd marriage. Seems to me I have to be the cause. Either that, or I am so oblivious to the type of person I fall for...) Wait - that's still my fault....

Things are so strange right now - we are going on with life as thought NOTHING happened - and I know I have to start this ball rolling, but I am so shell shocked after the last marriage that I really don't want to go thru it all again....*sigh*

How long were you both divorced before you started dating? How long did you date before you married?

Really? Sounds like conflict avoidance to me. If she can't fess up to her own waywardness she shouldn't be working on others.

She needs to be outed and smacked with the appropriate 2 x 4's.

She was divorced for 2 or 3 years, we started dating about a year after my divorce, and dated a little over a year...

You are quite right, in part it is conflict avoidance - but not completely out of cowardice (a little, though) I am one who wants to make sure that I have absolutely corrected my faults before I jump in and point out the faults of others. I am still not sure how much of this is something I have done, and need to correct - I don't really want to simply force her to change and then fix me later....

On the other hand, I am truly slow to start anything lately: the last time I confronted a spouse about an affair, I went through some really nasty times. I know the same is not going to happen now (we have no kids between us) but I still am wary of that much pain. The thing is, the more I post on here, the worse I feel and the more I know I need to talk to her about it. I had sort of hoped that simply confronting her at the train station would be cathartic enough to start us talking - but I must assume that fog is still heavy: it feels more like she is trying to be nice so I will stay quiet...

As for her working on others - I think she quit doing that about the time she started all this

I hate this.

I just checked her email - she sent a note to her guy saying that she couldn't afford the trip, but that she will plan a better way to get there - so I know now that all she is doing right now is playing nice till things go her way.

This does hurt. A lot.

Out her.

She knows better.

Exposure is key and you absolutely know the drill, she will go nuclear and was planning to dump you regardless.

She also knows the drill and has already taken steps to hide and destroy any evidence, or what will probably happen is she'll just out everything herself and just up and abandon you.

If you ARE familiar wth MB concepts, you should also know that one of the most talked-about tools here for ending As is EXPOSURE - yet you are deliberately choosing not to use this tool.

I am so sorry that you find yourself here again, how horrible.
Please expose her, you must.
If you did not correct any personal issues, you may have selected the "same" kind of S, however that does not excuse this in anyway, I know you know that.
I feel like you just don't have the strength to do any of this, physically and mentally, but for yourself you must, do this for you, please.

Actually I am preparing to expose this all - but I am not sure it would be very effective on MB (she hasn't been on - AFAIK - in over a year). I forwarded her emails & chat logs to myself, I have fuill record of this stupidity. The reason I am here is simple: I need some good advice and encouragement - this is extremely hard to do. I intend to do this for one reason only - to save my marriage. I am not looking to do this because I'm angry, want vindication, to punish - nothing like that. I simply want to do the right thing - and I'm scared of a fight with a person I love, and I am scared of losing her, and I am scared of the pain, on and on and on.

Right now, though, I am more concerned about MY part in this: what have I done, how can I change myself for the better. I feel almost unable to progress without figuring that part out. Perhaps I'm analyzing myself into the ground, but I would like to be able to change myself - regardless of the outcome. If I had my angry way, I'd already be packing my stuff and moving. It's because I keep telling myself I made this commitment that I havent yet.....

Expose today.

You may of had three wives cheat on you for one reason.

You keep on marrying your first wife. You kept on selecting the same type of woman. Instead of going in a new direction.

You say this isn't your first rodeo, then you know better than this, so does she.

Expose

Pesonally, I don't buy your story.

You appear to be gaming the board to me!

If you were really an old time MB'er and she was as well then you would know that all the cloak and daggger of hiding your old user names is NOT necessary. Affairs survive because of secrecy, you BOTH now this, so until you can come clean with the old user names so we can see your old histories... I ain't buyin' it.

Sorry old fool!

I agree.

No real help for you as long as you are providing half-arsed information.

Pep! When did you turn British?

I KNEW that if I stayed here long enough I would convert you all.

Oldfool, my friend, you are not doing your wife any favors by keeping her secret. One of the #1 tenants of MB is exposure. If she has been posting here to newcomers, then they need to know she doesn't practice these principles in her own life. It is only fair to posters here to know the background of those who give advice.

I would tell the board who she is, what she has done, and then make SURE she is pointed to this thread so she knows she has been outed. This is not just private information that effects you and your family, but information that effects people on this board.

Your WIFE has damaged her standing here by not practicing these principles in her own life. All you will be doing is exposing the TRUTH and preventing her from presenting a phony persona on this board. Protecting her from the consequences of her own actions is harmful to her.

Melody, Tst, and Pepper - it's so good to hear from you all! I know my hesitation was not the right thing to do, but I was so shocked by all that happened that I was thrown entirely off any ability to think straight. You have all been correct - which is exactly why I cam here.

My past screenname (I actually tried to get it back but forgot the password) was TanelornPete. My wife's past screen names were faithcj and I think faithfulwife. Like I said - she quit posting some time ago.

Initially I had sort of planned on posting all this when I did a full exposure (whenever that happens - still gathering materials - I don't want her to delete stuff before I get to it...) I do not believe she has been on here in some time (at least a year) unless she is using another name.

I didn't want to upset people she had talked to throughout the years - stupid, I know, because the truth is painful at times... I was just so blindsided by this.

She emailed her guy again last night

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{TanelornPete}}}}}}}}}}}}} I remember you! So sorry you are back here again, friend.

<-----------Tell CJ I'm looking for her, she KNOWS where to find me!

Oh, also show her my previous post before knowing who you were talking about, it still stands!



I'm so sorry this is happening to you! She soooo knows better than this! WTH?

Yes, I know she knows better. So much better. That's why I'm having such a hard time - I have got to know what I have done. It has to be largely my fault - I can't imagine what I might have done to drive her to such a thing. I've been going over everything I've done - every act, every failure, every disagreement. Somewhere in there is the answer.

I know now that I'm a BS, that marriage for me has been somehow cheapened, it's no longer sacred.

Maybe that's her problem.

Understandable, it's not because she doesn't know how to communicate!

Damitt CJ what are you thinking?

How are all of the kids? Both yours and hers. They've all been through h@ll, now this?

I'm SO SORRY you are back. But I am really struggling with this statement. I was constantly told and taught that yes, you might have had 50% of the marriage, but HER CHOICE to have the A is on her 100%.

You can't MAKE anyone do anything. She CHOSE this. Let the fault, let the blame, let the cleaning up be with her.

I completely agree. The affair is 100% hers to own.

Hi BK.... Nice to see ya.. Hope all is well.

The kids don't know anything yet - they are all teenagers now - off on their own planets, for the most part. The really horrible thing is: I lied TO THE KIDS the other day when CJ took off - when we came home together, I told the kids she had been for a long walk... I couldn't bring myself to tell them she had gone to the train station to leave town...


Yes, I know, I know - but I am stunned to see her fall off track like this - I always thought I would be the one who would be tempted - and I spent so much time avoiding any situation that could be tempting...

Well, my HEAD knows it. Inside, I am still grasping about trying to make sense of it -and the only one I can see to blame is me...

I go to AA mtgs and I have been in a lot of meetings lately where people with LONG TERM sobriety... 20 plus years are going back out and drinking. It didn't just happen -one day you wake up and decide to drink. Over time it's the little things, the little choices.

She could have come here and talked about her struggles, she could have talked to you, she could have done a number of things that she might have told others to do.

You admit you were tempted and did the THINGS to make sure it didn't happen. She wasn't as thoughtful.

Of course you are grasping to make sense out of it. That's what we BS's do, try to make sense out of other peoples actions and choices. We can't. Because we aren't them.

If you are the only to see as the blame, then like me I offer that you are a controlling person who thinks that you have cause and effect in other's lives. That's the LIE. You can't control anyone but yourself. You are powerless over people, places and things. And when you think you can control her or anyone else your life becomes unmanageable and you are sooner or later going to get hurt.

Like now. Breathe.... Just breathe and be still. You sound like a very caring person who understands what you are involved in. Let G-d work in this. Start over on here like you are brand new and don't know anything. Trust the others who have gone before you.

Act... stop reacting... You can do this.

The background from her perspective; posted 12 May 2007


The rest of the story

STOP IT!

It is 100% her choice to step outside the marriage!

Wow tst - thanks for posting CJs story - I wasn't aware it was still around...

I agree it is 100% her choice to step out - I am more concerned that these things DON'T happen is a vacuum

Well - there is time to work on me later anyway...

I just don't want to have to do this AGAIN

CJ, when you read this, you sent us an invitation to your wedding.

I am as responsible for your marriage as those who witnessed your vows and stood up for you in person!

TOF, you need a plan.

Fearless guy would do what?

I'm just shocked that someone who posted in this vein in 2007, describing the terrible course of her exH's affair, could be deep in an affair 2.5 years later, only 3.5 years into her new marriage, and having been educated here on MB for so many years.

ITA Sugarcane!

What I SHOULD have done was let her go on her 700 mile trip - she had 2$ in her purse - wonder how long Mr Wonderful would have supported her....

The fact that this CAN happen is why I have been so careful over the past three years to make sure I stay always on target - the CRAP I had to go through with the kid's mother (my exW) caused so much pain that I swore I would do all I could to protect CJ.

My marriage vow to her (we have it taped to our headboard):

"I, David, in faith, honesty and love, take you, Cindy, to be my wedded wife to share with you God's plan for our lives togther united in Christ. And with God's help to strengthen and guide me, I will be a strong spiritual leader for us in our life. I promise to you my deepest love, my fullest devotion, and my most tender care. Through the pressures of the present and the uncertainties of the future, I promise to be faithful to you - for better, for worse, in sickness and in health, in joys and in sorrows until in death do we part. I give you all that I have: myself and my love. All these things I pledge to thee, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. With this ring I seal my vow of love to you, Cindy, and pray that I will fulfill God's place in our home..."

CJ's vows are quite similar...

The ironic thing is, CJ wrote most of that (I love her way with words.) I read them often...

Theoldfool,

First let's get something straight, you are NOT old. Ok! You are giving us much OLDER folks things to worry about.

Second, I am sure there is some commonality in your W's and/or in your treatment of them. You are well advised to examine both of these things carefully.

Third, her choice to have an affair is just that...HER CHOICE. It had nothing to do with you. She could have asked for a divorce, she could have asked you to address what she felt were your inadequcies, she could have sought counseling or even advice here. She did none of those things.

The part everyone including yourself is having a hard time getting their head around is that she has been her, she knows the pain, she knows how cowardly WS's are. Yet, she did and is doing this.

You need to expose to family and friends, and you need to let her know that you know a great deal about what she is doing. Next you need to make some plans. First, what are going to do if she leaves. Second, what are you going to do if she stays.

Both plans should be discussed the folks here, the Harley's if possible, and an attorney. You need to protect yourself and your children.

I am sorry you are back here again. I do remember you and your W from the old days. I and others here will help you anyway we can.

Please think about these things.

God Bless,

JL

Hi JL! Hey - I FEEL old!

Lots of love to you! I hate meeting with friends only in painful circumstances...

You are very right about the plans - I cannot continue living like this if she stays - it is way too painful. And life would be awful for her if she left - she has no real path to take...

I did want to add this though (at least, it's a new one for me...)

I accessed all of CJ's passwords and sent myself a complete copy of the list. I also set up her chat logs so that I can access them from my computer.

Reading through the rather extensive dialog she's been having with 'Anthony' (her lover) I've noted some really strange things:

1) He has no idea she is married. She has formulated an entire world for his benefit. Even her kids are just friends she knows...

2) She sent him pictures from our honeymoon (!) and told him that these were random pictures of her from her many travels - and that she has strangers snap the shots for her....

Our honeymoon! That trip was so special to me - and those photos are such a treasure - I am stunned and so sick.

She plans to make weekend trips down to see him - and then return to work the next week....

WHAT ON EARTH? I know the fog can get rather thick - but GOOD LORD! How blind can you get?

What is hurting me the most, though, is the way she is acting right now: she is all over me - gifts, hugs, kisses, sex, walks.... and she is repeating things that she tells me to him - and vice versa - kinda like a double life. I cannot see WHY she would be doing this - I know she is planning on taking off as soon as another check hits the bank - why would she be so oblivious to the fact that the more she does, the worse the pain to her family will be when she leaves?

I'm soooo sorry you are going through this. CJ posted to me a time or two awhile back. I too am shocked. But mainly shocked at how waywards can act so idiotic. We've always said around here to not even try to figure out what the hayul a wayward is thinking. So true in this case. I think she's gone off the deep end.

She has lost all touch with reality.

You need to protect yourself and your finances from her, like yesterday.

TOG, go rock her world with a nuclear exposure. Have you read Dr Harley's recent newsletter about exposure? Exposure

You are also unfairly causing scrutiny to the honest vets who are on here helping. Exposure, Oldfool. Use it. You know that.

Ahhh, posted too fast.

Oh lord! I just went back through her email history - the first email that is still saved is on June 9th! Half of this year? How blind am I????

I plan on exposing this thing today - but I am so tired and I can't think very clearly - could use prayers, etc...

I would expose to the OM first of all, since he seems to have no idea that she's married. The entire thing will likely blow up in her face once the OM discovers that she's married and that her 'friends' are actually her children.

That is sort of my plan - not sure what the fallout will be..... I have pretty much everything ready - and am also going to show one of her emails to our oldest daughter - the one where she claims that our daughter is a good friend that she met here in Oregon...

Good luck.
Sorry you have to make so many painful choices.
Stick closely to the MB rule book.
Call for a Harley appointment if WW says she wants to stay married to you.

Ok, committed now - sent a letter to the OM, and showed our daughter the email lying about CJ's kids. Daughter was very hurt - I feel so terrible for her, but she is 20 and I needed to give her a heads up about the storm that is coming....

When just now checking to see whether OM was married I noticed this:

TOF,

Something is wrong here. I suspect she either feels guilt or she is so remorseless that she is just setting you up for the kill.

Given that I have spoken with her in the past it is hard for me to believe the latter choice and I suspect it is for you. However, given how things are going I would definitely protect myself financially as well as legally.

How is her daughter taking this? Is she going to call her mom and let her know what she now knows? Is she for you two staying together?

Final comment. "The FOG" is the very definition of Oblivious so you should not be surprised that she is not considering the pain she will be inflicting on you or the family. But, my guess is deep down she knows hence her actions toward you.

Hang in there.

God Bless,

JL

True - there are two others - one that sort of slipped off the map a few months ago - I assume a flame that burned out - and the other I intend to address: she lied to him last week, telling him she was taking a few days to 'head to the coast' to cover her trip south...

Weirdness...

To tell you the truth, I am still not sure. I called her on the affair a while ago, she admitted it with almost no emotion - some tears, and then kinda went on with her day. I am really confused. I guess I'll wait for the other shoe to drop (perhaps when she hears from OM who has just found out that she is married with children?)


Her daughter still lives with us - she is finishing her last term of school and preparing to move out. XXXX was very hurt - she sat very quietly (a rarity for her) and pretty much just repeated 'that sucks, that sucks' over and over. She is now out walking around town; I'll check in with her when she gets back (we have become very close friends.)


I am in a sort of fog myself right now - I am not sure at all where we stand.... I made it clear it needs to end, and I am willing to work on my part of our marriage....but its really quiet right now...

*sigh*

Sounds like she is looking around for a new meal ticket. Sad. Why not get a JOB instead. She may have too much time on her hands.

Actually she makes the majority of money for us - it may be that she is looking for LESS work?

TOF -

I feel like I should let the vets handle this, but I also wanted to offer a few thoughts.

You seem to be in that dangerous position of indecisiveness at a pivotal point in time re: your WW's A(s?) and your M. Too many times BHs come here caught up (and VERY UNDERSTANDBLY SO) in the emotions of betrayal, and I feel they are missing a critical window of opportunity in quashing the A.

I am puzzled as to why you, an MB old-timer, would adopt such a precarious, casting-about attitude. You seem to be looking around to figure out why this happened, and you seem to be fixating on 'how could she do this?' Those are extremely important and valid ideas, but IMVHO now is not the time to spend your energy on figuring those out. (As they say here, get your WS "back" first, then make decisions about the M/recovery later. I would put these types of questions/ideas into that same file. Unless you are done w/ the M, but you seem conflicted and wanting to recover...)

Right now, you need a plan. A plan will give you decisive actions that will speak volumes to your WW, and, more importantly, will focus you (and hopefully help you decide what you want your life to look like and what kind of person you will come out of this as.)

You mentioned you confronted your wife re: her A... And things are continuing like this? Your WW does not get to call the shots. She has zero ability right now to care for you or your M, or to make any decisions that do NOT give her another fix. (Aside: I could extrapolate on this multiple OM idea, too, at some other time if you'd like.)

I've often said one of the things that helped "de-fog" me so quickly were the swift and decisive actions of my BH. I knew he wasn't messing around, I knew he had a backbone - I knew what his boundaries were and that he would enforce them.

I want you guys to fix this...not only for your M, but for all you represent as an MB-founded M. It gives me hope and assures me things are right in the world if you MBers recover.

She makes most of the money yet she has only a couple dollars with her when she was trying to see the lover? It makes no sense.

TOF -

Please, let me apologize for my previous post. It minimizes all you are going through right now, and that was certainly not my intention.

You just had your world knocked off its axis. It takes a while to grow accustomed to the new tilt, and I think my earlier post minimized that.

Again, apologies.

I hardly post or read here anymore, and perhaps after this response you'll agree that I shoulda stayed that way, but I'll post anyway and I hope my post is taken in the right light (trying to help).


This comment made me think back to my years of reading CJ's posts, and having a number of discussions with her (not all of them pretty, I must say). One thing that struck a raw nerve with CJ was when I at one point asked her if perhaps like her ex, who apparently had serious bipolar disorder, she too had a slight BP tendency. IMO, she exhibited a number of traits that I would normally associate with that disorder. In response, she basically chewed me a new one, so I dropped that line of questioning, and, frankly, most other interactions with her.

But, seeing the quote above reminds me that this is exactly what is often said about folks going through a manic episode, so I just want to float this as a thought. Also, recall that manic episodes happen on roughly 7 year centers, and by my math, the timing is just about right. Do you think there is any chance that this is what's at play, TOF?

Anyway, I am just trying to help, and I hope that this is indeed helpful. I hope no one interprets this post as an attempt to bash CJ.

AGG

Think nothing of it - I understood your point. Just to let you know, I post whatever is going through my heart at the time on here - hoping for correction and advice - but in real life, I am proceeding pretty much straight forward.

UPDATE:

After exposure yesterday I believe one of the current affairs has been halted. I say believe because I have no absolute proof yet, and we spent most of yesterday talking with little other action. There is nothing in her email, nor her faux facebook page, nor on the chat logs I have access to that show any contact - with one exception...

I think he may have contacted her briefly on another chat program (I'm going to have to get that chat log forwarded to a shared folder) that left her devastated - we were preparing to make a run to the store and she checked her computer for a moment, and then broke down into hysterical tears. She wouldn't tell me exactly why, but stated that she was going to delete all of her chat programs and online accounts.

From that (and that is really poor evidence) I sort of made a preliminary deduction that OM was not pleased to find that she was married with children.

In any event, after work today, things will continue: she still has all of her chat programs and online accounts active (I've been loggin on to see any activity.) I'm requesting that those all go - and that she only have agreed upon chat programs and that I have complete access. Same with the email.

There's a lot of fog involved - ironically, one of the blessings of having been here before is that I am almost immune to it - all of the things I learnt before are coming back - including bouncing the statements back. But I have to tell you all that this is extremely painful - watching CJ go through all the same motions she taught people to detect and disassemble over the years is taking a huge toll on me. I am tired, I am sad, and I am so skeptical. I hate this a lot.

TO agg -

Wow - you know, I had not thought of this. Of course, from where I am right now, I have absolutely no idea - its an entirely new concept - something that I definitely intend to look into (her son appears to suffer this disorder as well) - Have to take that one step at a time though...


Personally I did not take it as such - to me its more like what is going through the back of my mind: "...What on earth? How could this happen??????..."

AGG,

Very good catch. I do sort of remember that conversation you had with CJ. It has been a long time. Her behavior certainly does seem to reflect a BP tendency and would explain what most of us are having a hard time understanding given her time here.

Nice Job. This site needs a few "historians" on it just for things like this.

JL

TOF,

First thing when betrayed by infidelity is to focus on what you did or didn't do to bring it about. You've forgotten that's common. It's you casting about for control...if you can be at fault, you can fix.

Not real, just very normal, understandable.

Maybe the one thing you didn't come completely to terms with in your first marriage when you were betrayed...was that you did not have control...and this time, you truly will. When you conflict avoid, you are actually acting to control. Seems like the opposite...it isn't. It's the one part of your pattern not changed from marriage to marriage.

Real respect of others means you embrace and hold yourself to NOT controlling (it's fantasy)...means you respect your spouse is capable, at any time, of making horrendous choices. And they do, and they have, in your experience.

The one choice I don't see you having made is to get out of the way of someone else's consequences...and that's about control, too.

Stepping aside is a crucial part of love. It means you do not lie to teenagers about where your wife is, what she is doing...and you do not bow down to lying so you won't be SEEN as vindictive, punishing...you stop justifying. Again, it's control. Sneaky, hard to see--still is.

You state the truth and trust others will deal with the truth. Because they will. And you won't keep crossing boundaries in subtle ways, in confusion...inside yourself. You'll respect your boundaries--they are healthy and helpful. Even when they feel otherwise. Like honesty. You stay honest, period. You do O&H drivebys...you stick to your boundaries.

That's why exposure, bringing reality, helps end affairs and the fog...leaves no room for the wayward mindset to continue.

Clear up your lines...you did not bring her back from the train station...she chose to come home. You did walk in and lie to the rest of the blended family...and all have concern and a part of the whole...so did CJ.

A choice, not a happenstance.

You can gain a tad of comfort from distraction in going back over your life to find where you were to blame for the outcome...it's a distraction, not a cure...gives your brain time to absorb what you chose to believe was impossible (she was safe because she'd been betrayed before, knew MB)...

You can do that until you fully grasp you have an issue with control...seek it, to protect yourself and your loved ones, try to exert it in ways you do not see yourself...and maybe this is the time you'll face and know it within yourself. It's important. Has a position within why you didn't expect her to do this, have this mindset, be capable...

which doesn't respect her as a separate person, as weak and strong as you are. That her affair is about her...her wayward mindset is created and maintained in her...and she lost her way.

God doesn't cease his reaching, providing, being...he's there, as he ever was...for her, for you, your family...rest in that (instead of distracting with blame) and ask him what is this control issue in you, where did it come from, how much self-deception is involved in it...

and share those same thoughts with WW...because a form of admiration is asking advice, giving deep appreciation, celebrating your spouse's wholeness, their very being, and choice to be in your life. And God can speak through anyone, anything...look at Dr. Harley, explaining all his experience of coaching couples through infidelity, and not having experienced it himself. Doesn't make the advice invalid...even Satan can quote scripture...doesn't make the scripture untrue.

Lots of chemical, hormonal changes at this age, I'm discovering...like another poster said, MLC, menopause, impending empty nest...and what the heck is my life right now--this isn't what I envisioned...and those addictive shortcuts to feelings...the literal drug hits from fantasy...and the absurd extremes we can go to in order to distract from our reality...

I'm so very sorry for your pain. You're already in prayers and you are not alone. You have your part in the marriage, not any in the affairs, 'k? Not in the wayward mindset. You can choose to bring reality, fully, through honesty and intimacy...not based on her response...just your commitment...so you can personally recover to the depth you wanted all along. No more repeats. Deep understanding of what you choose to do and not do, and why. So you can make different choices.

Welcome back, Tan.

LA

What do you do with a rabid dog?

Thank you so much LA. So much truth - I really know it all deep down - it's just hard to remain attached to reality when your world flips on you. Thank you for the insight - this has really helped.

Yes...um...well, I'd like to come out of this WITH a wife....lol

Good, I'm glad you took my comments the right way.

AGG

Yes, and it was TOF's comments about how out of character this behavior was that reminded me of my earlier observations of CJ


Well, that's one benefit of having been here for all these years!

AGG

In a strange place now...

Cj has deleted all errant email, chat programs and her fake facebook account. I have access to her computer and we've talked about withdrawal symptoms from the affair, etc. Of course, she is completely aware of all this and pretty much can delineate all the necessary steps and what we should be doing...which makes this really wierd.

Here's the hitch for me - last time I was in this situation, it never got this far.

What do I do now?

Start praying.... Make a LIST of what you WANT and don't let her have an out or excuse.

Ask her to start a thread here about what she's done. I'm interested in finding out how someone so familiar with MB principles could find themselves in that type of situation. Is the lure of an A actually so high?

I agree with Man in Motion, it would be helpful to her and others, since she has offered her advice on here, to get and give advice with a new thread of hers.

and for you T, I can't imagine, I feel horrible for you.
figuring out what you want out of this is a tough part, at least it was tough for me. To make a list was almost impossible, I sat so long in the back ground, never asking for anything, taking what I could get, and now I was being asked by the MC, what do I want? If you've never been any kind of a taker in a relationship this will be hard for you, think of ALL your relationships, bros, sis, mom, dad, friends, what do you expect any of them to do for you? are you always the giver? this might be hard.

That's me exactly! I am extremely thankful to LovingAlways for pointing out that my avoidance was a major form of control - that was an epiphany for my personal life - and it may help me avoid many pitfalls that come in the future.

You have all been very helpful and kind here - thanks to everyone who posted - even if I did not directly reply to your posts, I read and considered them all.

Touching back in for review, exhorts, and corrections...

I am a little dismayed at how things are working out between CJ and I. On the one hand, we are working through correcting LBs and ENs and doing a lot of romantic things. This, I am enjoying greatly. The issue is that not all of it 'feels' genuine. I expected this, knowing that the 'fog' is sometimes quite thick, and the effects of withdrawal from an affair can take some time and also can affect the relationship. I'm aware of THOSE things, and I'm pretty well prepared to handle them.

But what I am not prepared for is the game. We had agreed that CJ would get rid of her alternate email address and facebook account. Sometime last week, I discovered that she had not gotten rid of the Facebook account, and brought this up. She said that she was running a website that was connected to the account, and that a lot of people were involved in the website, so that if she closed her Facebook account, the website would also be closed. I didn't really understand all that, but we worked out a compromise: she would transfer ownership of the website to someone else and then close it.

I was under the impression that she had done so.

Today I found out that not only had she not done this, but that she was still active on her alternate Facebook account - including sending a note to OM about how she was concerned about him (also stating that she knew it was none of her business)...

So I checked the alternate email address: and found that just last night, while I was making dinner, she had sent a very long email to the OM. It is not a love letter per se, but one that is designed to 'encourage and strengthen' him...

Basically an EA letter stepped back a bit from the graphic sex that had made up previous ones.

This means that I have to take more drastic action - but it also means that I have lost a lot of love - and this is getting ridiculous. I am pretty near simply writing this all off.....

And I'll say again...



If you settle for crumbs,
you should expect crumbs.

And TOF,

I'm sorry you are dealing with this.

{{{{{TOF}}}}}}

She keeps on lying to me!!! ):

TOF,

I agree with SMB. None of us should settle for crumbs. I am in my early forties, but i have come to realize that there are people who are "broken" and can't be "fixed".

I am not saying your WW is that way for sure, but she sure seems like it.

I wish I had stood up for myself more earnestly earlier in my own equation.

Some people are the type that you will live your whole life babysitting, catching them in one situation or the next, like a puppy that can't be house trained and keeps on going in the house and bows his head guiltily because he knows what he did was wrong; but will keep right on doing it.

SWW

Pardon the rambling post - I'm really tired....

Went back over the concept of 'no contact', she has gotten rid of her extra facebook account, and today she is supposed to close her extra hotmail account. We also agreed that she have no chats with members of the opposite sex.

At least, it seemed like we agreed.....didn't really get a firm commitment on that. Still not sure when she agrees to something if that is actually an agreement or not... I'm not being weak here - I have access to her computer and I can actively remove the chats, but I am hoping this will be done freely on her part. I can always hope!

We had a very good, long talk last night. The one trouble I am having is that it still seems to me that in the end I am the only who gets blamed for this whole thing. I won't take credit for anything more than my own actions (or inaction). Yet I am still unsure as to what she is really thinking. Probably just a reaction to being burned so badly - I find it hard to believe ANYTHING.

If I were you, I would be checking up on her every 4 hours, for the next 4 to 6 weeks. Just make it a massive bombardment, so that she GETS what you're going through. And if she doesn't like it, well, then you have your answer.

Is it just me, or is she just really not repentant?

She is acting like a real creep, send her here and we will 2x4 her.

For me, when I was truly repentant, I didn't care what steps H wanted to take. I was glad for him to take them. When I was defensive or hiding, I dragged my feet and questioned or evaded him. It's like drug testing: if yu don't take drugs, then what's the problem?

I got some stern rebuke from people too. But they were right, and I needed to be rebuked. Waywardness is wrong, and a wayward person needs to have the glaring light swtiched onto them.

I pop by here every so often and my GOD, I'm absolutely SHOCKED by this. CJ and I were good friends who talked on the phone and wrote letters and... it dwindled down to occasional emails and then ... nothing. I haven't heard from her in a year or two. I guess I know why. Man, I just can't believe it. I just never, ever in a million trillion years thought she'd do something like this! I'm almost speechless.

TOF, I am very sorry for your pain. I have been on both sides of this thing and I know the devistation.

Don't take the blame for choices that aren't yours. Active adulterers need someone to blame and unfortunately spouses are the likely choice. It is NEVER about the spouse. It is ALWAYS about the person making the very poor choice to cheat. If you're like most of us, TOF, you have enough on your own shoulders to carry the blame of someone else.

Keep us up to date, please. I know many of us care...

Well, I am back to being very confused again. I cannot see what I am to do. CJ has still not broken off contact, she chats daily with one of the OM's friends - and will not allow me to see her chats.

The other night, she was chatting directly with OM - I sat there and watched the chat log on my computer - sitting right next to her. At one point, she noticed that I had the log open - and she simply deleted the chat log and changed the directory so I can't access it again - she said not a word. I was stunned.

Now I've found out that she still has the alternate email address that we had agreed must be deleted (at least, I was under the impression of agreement...). It carries responses from her alternate Facebook page - which she supposedly turned over to someone else. SHe has no password for it on her computer, so I assume she is telling the truth there. However, one of the responses on her email was from the OM - and today, without telling me she deleted the email.

In other words, in my mind, she is still living a hidden life and it seems that she has no intention of letting me in.

I'm starting to get very angry - which does not happen with me very often. How am I to handle this? Weekly confrontations exposing contact? Sheesh! HOw often must she admit and promise to stop???

Without telling her. Separate finances. Close her off your bank accounts and cancel her CCs. You should not be expected to fund any lifestyle but the one you have together. There must be consequence to her actions.

Something broke in CJ. My first clue was when I started getting spammed by CJ's email - which typically only happens when you start looking at corrupt web sites after using your email. I tried to email CJ back and let her know but I'm guessing she doesn't use that account anymore. I even posted a notice to her on the after divorce board about it.

I'm sorry for what you are going through (again). And that it's at CJ's hand. I thought she'd been hurt badly by her x that she'd never walk on that side of the street. She must be terribly broken inside and avoiding looking at herself.

Where you are now unable to work, are you able to get disability or any form of assistance? Check with United Way and let them know you're about to lose your financial support (wife) and need to be checking into some resources to give you some autonomy.

Then Plan B her. If you own the home, kick her out and give her the letter; she knows the drill.

Is she drinking or using drugs as well?

That was my experience, as well.

And I agree, something must have snapped. I can't believe we're talking about the same person I knew.

Oddly enough, I got an email from her last week, which is what prompted me to check in here. I didn't even read the email because it was a forward. But it made me think of her. I was sad... she seemed to have dropped off the face of the earth. Sigh.

TOF, protect yourself. Like others have said, you know the drill - so does CJ. No use asking why or how or anything else. Just do. Do what needs to be done. If you need reminders of what that is: expose, protect yourself and your children, and DOCUMENT everything...

... and a little prayer wouldn't hurt, nor a check into what's available for you in your community for financial and emotional help through this very rough time... and beyond.

Horrible situation. Sorry to keep saying how shocked I am but every once in awhile I am completely blindsided by peoples actions. This is one of those times.

Obviously, that's not even true. She is not even trying to pretend that she's not contacting him - she's doing it sitting right next to you!

Time to be ruthless. Shut down all accounts. Turn off all internet and phone. Make her work at it to get it all back. But it will not be condoned by you.

Then get ready to Plan B.

I agree - call United Way.

I'm posting stuff here right now mainly for documentation. Today she set up a new gmail address (without telling me) using her old affair screen name. Furthermore, she received a password and login for an online gaming site from OM.

At the same time she's been telling me how much she want to make 'us' work.

I also suspect she has managed to reactivate her facebook alternate site.

I believe 'I feel violated' is the term. Will address all of this tonight, make a final request, and then move on from here.

Thanks for all the advice.

Shut it all down if you can. Cut off the internet!

You'd have more of an effect if you go ahead and have her clothes packed before you talk.

Heck, yeah. Go outside and cut the cord, if you have to.

Sorry for your situation. I agree with advice - you need to go Plan B dark.

Gg

Oops!

hmmmm is this that tanelornpete <?> and faithfulwifeCJ? I am wracking my brain!