Haven't seen you around here in a while...good to see you stopping by.

I had wanted to catch up with you for a while now, but lost your phone number. Give me a call if you still have mine.

LoBoy

Larry, so good to see you back! Dr Harley has been doing alot of writing the past 12 months and has churned out some amazing newsletters [Exposure and Unconditional love newsletters are awesome!] that have been posted on the Newsletter forum. here

Additionally, he has just published a new book titled Effective Marriage Counseling that I am reading now. Mark started a thread about it here.

How is the weather in your neck of the woods? My mother in Amarillo was snowed in last week.

LB - drop me an email. I lost your number when I changed phones.

Mel: Thanks for helping bring me up to date. I probably spent 30 hours reading Harley before I ever posted. And I do want to see what is new and read again the basics, which I am now doing.

I took a quick look at Mark's thread. Wow! I will invest in the book.

I went away for good reason and I am back because I got jealous of a long time shrink buddy of mine who is active on the ADHD forums giving out his professional advice for free now that he is retired. It gives him something worthwhile he can do. He suggested that part of my character was helping others when I could. So here I be in all my inflamed glory

We got some snow, not much, but enough to make a few snowballs. It has been cold, see name of my town for full reference.

Oh, and LB, think Karma

Larry

Hi Larry,

You mentioned on another thread that you divorced your FWW. Is this the wife you were married to during your previous time on MB?

If so, I'm sorry to hear about the divorce. I know, though, that you took a long time to get to that decision and it was the right one in the circumstances.

Hey SugarCane:

Yes, same woman. There were a lot of dynamics at play. She wanted another child. We both have a recessive gene that points to Hirschsprung's disease, which our boy has. Look it up on the net, it is not fun. It involves part or all of the colon not developing properly. Our kid has half a colon. And the inner ring of the anus doesn't work right.

Secondly, I am way older than my FWW. The generational difference finally began to be an issue. Plus, she got her BSN and at that point, became able to support herself for the first time in her life. She is a hellofa Nurse, if I do say so, me and myself.

The cloud of the past affair hung over us like the smoke of doom. I didn't trust her and apparently she didn't trust herself. We moved locations, then moved back after the divorce. The move was to allow her to help take care of her father, who died. We then moved back to get the kids where they needed to be and put her back to work where her skills were more appreciated.

I am kinda miserable right now and apparently so is she. As it turns out, the last guy she started dating moved in and after a real smart campaign to get her into infatuation mode, turned one day and found reason he thought appropriate to cut me more or less out of their lives. That hasn't worked too well since as time has moved on, he has turned into a somewhat controlling jerk. In my opinion, the only thing stopping her from kicking his [censored] under the bus is ego and pride.

We shall see where the Karma bus goes as time moves on. I tried to move into the role of Grandfather and got denied that privilege. But I have my son every weekend and sometimes during the week with full cooperation from FWW. I like that part.

Her affair was with someone totally inappropriate in ever way that has a measure. If not for that, we might have made it for a longer time. She got infatuated and did what the infatuated do who do not have a good moral compass. We recovered pretty well, but with all the other stuff overhanging our relationship added to the affair, our marriage was doomed.

Life goes on.

Larry

Larry, I'm so sorry.

Larry, I am sorry to hear about your divorce. Sometimes the definition of success is divorce, IMO.

Am very glad you are back here helping.

Ditto!

Mark, are you finding this book as fascinating as I am?? [Effective Marriage Counseling] I was up late last night reading and re-reading it. I will be interested in hearing your thoughts on it.

Mel,

Definitely some "aha" moments. It's helping clarify a lot of the "why" type stuff for me.

I've been putting off reading the application section so that I can read more smoothly through the sections rather than get a few minutes now and a few more later. I would like to follow the case study start to finish if possible.

Have you modified anything about the advice you give here or the way you approach advice you give? One thing that struck me in the book was that Dr H says that he doesn't give advice during the first visit. He gather's data first, builds a connection to the couple and then, from what I can tell, delves into his plan which I believe varies very little from couple to couple from what I can tell.

I wonder if maybe sometimes some of the conflict we have around here isn't more the result of the way we rapid fire advice to newbies and end up putting them on the defensive rather than explaining what they should do and trying to listen to them first. A lot of them haven't even made up their mind whether or not they want to save their marriage and when they get here all they really want is someone to have empathy and commiserate a bit.

I just see Dr Harley's style as being supportive and suggestive rather than confrontational and demanding, toe the line or go away. I think sometimes we miss an opportunity to help someone by being too in-your-face from the get-go. We can tell them what to do, but first we have to get them to want to hear what we are telling them. I see the doctor's description of his process as one that while it is filled with motivational techniques and absolutes it also strives to create a connection with the couple seeking help so that they are more likely to do what he tells them to do when the time comes. I guess it comes down to people not caring what we know until they know that we care.

Like I said, I'm just beginning the application part of the book so I'll probably get some more insight from that. I just don't want to have to jump in and out of the case studies since I think getting the flow of that section will show more about the process than just gathering information. I just don't have a lot of time to give it right now.

At the moment my wife and I are in the midst of start up of a NFP and we're trying to beat a deadline of one month from this past weekend in order to make an event. It's taking a bit more time right now than we'd like, but we are working on it together rather than each doing our own thing.

The NFP coupled with work is consuming most of my waking hours right now and we're still doing our MB class on Wednesday nights and I'm still on the church board in the midst of a major remodeling project and...

I need three days added to every week that nobody else knows about.


Mark

I agree Mark.
When I was working, if I started giving advice without letting the patient tell their story, the chances of them listening to me was small.

Only occasionally is there enough of a danger to warrant "You must do this immediately" advice.

Larry,

Good to see ya back!!!!....I am sorry to hear about the divorce though.....even IF it is the right thing for you....

{{{{Mark}}}}}...poor you...

I agree with everything you wrote about firing off instructions...especially, when the newbies that come here haven't even picked up one of the books....

not2fun

AWWWWW! PeP!

My East Texas buddy in Lovelady liked it too. He is the ex-shrink who just retired. I told him that the trained monkey in my head found a banana. He then went on to explain what he thought being a man was all about, especially in these days of sitcoms and other influences which had sorta, maybe, probably, muddled up the role model.

Larry

I totally agree with going slow . . . at first. The stage has to be set before sharing personal perspectives based on life experience. None of us are clinically trained, at least I ain't.

Every once in a while though, I smell a rat and I kinda, sorta, pick up the pace a bit, even to the extent of doing a rant or two or three. When I woke up from my induced stupor, a guy used a two by four on me and it worked. But it doesn't always.

The book isn't here, yet. I look forward to reading some wisdom from the guy who knows.

And again, thank you to all who have welcomed me back. I got a warm fuzzy

Larry

The Socratic Method: teaching by asking instead of by telling

It takes longer, and not every newbie is able to dig deep enough, for various reasons.
But, this is my favorite way to determine if a newbie and I will be able to communicate effectively.
I can usually tell within a few posts if I am a poor fit for a particular newbie.

After all these years, I can no longer tolerate trying to be effective with a newbie who seems incapable of self inventory by answering simple introspective questions ... Usually I will lose my temper with them too easily, and that helps no one.

I haven't modified anything because the difference is that he is doing this so he can gather data, ie: questionaires, etc, which takes up the whole first session. Then he said they come back and he spends 3 hours reviewing this with them. We don't do that here. And even if we did, we wouldn't be qualified to discern the meaning of the questionaires. [I am sure not!] Dr Harley has both people, we just have one side. And one of his biggest guides is the Love Bank Inventory.


I don't know, Mark, Dr Harley is confrontational and is "toe the line or go away." Remember what he says about folks who don't do their homework and follow his instructions? If they don't do their homework and they don't follow his instructions, he tells them he can't help them. When a couple doesn't do their homework, he says he spends the ENTIRE next session discussing WHY they didn't do their homework, because he is not going onto the next step until that is resolved.

That sounds very toe the line to me.

This is something I noted in his radio show too. He would ask people sometimes, "are you going to listen to what I say? Because if you aren't, then I am not going to waste my time." I tend to be the same way. I will answer someone's questions, lay out the program and then it is up to them to take it or leave it. If they don't want to take it, that is fine with me. I just move onto the next person.

I am not to the case studies yet, but this is one of the most fascinating books of his I have read. Those passages you wrote over on the MB101 forum to cantwemakeit just blew me away, because that is SO TRUE. I can look back at the progression in my marriage and see that meeting RC and SF in my marriage is what pushed us over the top. Then with the addition of the POJA and PORH, it was gravy.

I so wish you would post that post as its own thread over here on SAA. I think that would be so beneficial to posters on this board who are trying so hard to find the fastest horse.

Yes. My real life experience working in a chronic pain clinic taught me the same thing. In that environment, I was constrained by a bunch of rules/laws in just how I could phrase my returning them to their primary physician ... and I charted my words very carefully ...

I was dealing, in large part, with people overusing prescription and non prescription analgesics. I always told the patient that the first time they lie to me is the day they have made the decision I cannot help them.

Pep,

Them old Greek geeks knew some things, me thinks...

I have found that people tend to remember and implement those changes that they feel they have discovered for themselves. Sometimes that isn't possible to do, especially on an on-line forum like this one.

But I know that I read a few threads when I got here before I ever tried to post anything and they caused me to see several things right off the bat. First of all, I saw that my situation was not so unique and that there were many, way too many, that had been right where I was. I also realized that my own fog was clouding my perspective and struggled to see past the fog to look at the circumstances I found myself in.

I do realize that this is seldom (read that as almost never) the case. Most often people find themselves here as the result of a web search and arrive feeling as if their entire life is out of control, devoid of hope and unaware that all the things they might have heard in the last 24 hours or so will one day mean very little if anything at all.

One bit of advice I got nearly caused me to throw in the towel before I ever got here. It was being told that I was the cause of the affair. That I now know is the explanation used to justify the affair from the wayward POV. AT the time, it reinforced the notion that if I had somehow been a better man, my wife would not have fallen for OM. Most web sites I visited and other forums I posted on seemed to suggest that this was always the case. Close friends were telling me the same things.

I did a lot of self examination in the early days. I did however realize, without having learned about ENs, UA time, POJA, Love Busters, that the fact that my wife and I were leading totally separate lives and were not actively working at sustaining our relationship were at the heart of our problems.

I got the "If you were the man God said you should be" speech from many. So why was the missionary or the preacher caught up in the same situation I found myself in? Did they not really know what it was that God asked of them?

I got the "If you really loved her you'd want her to be happy" speech from others. I DID want her to be happy. But I wanted to be happy as well, and more to the point, I wanted us to be happy together.

To be honest, my turning point was when I realized that I was going to be OK no matter what happened to my marriage.

As you can tell from this missive, I am not a big fan of rapid fire, one line, IM style of communication with folks. If I think I have something to say, I am willing to say it more than once, in more than one way, and in words that will try to get my point across. If someone refuses my advice, I realize that they are not attacking me personally and that I can either try again or attempt a different analogy or line of logic to arrive at the same point without having to get angry myself. I also know that the people who can get under my skin the quickest and make me question my own resolve to "play nice" are the ones who trigger me somehow, either by being too much like me or my wife and reminding me of all the crap I went through (thinking Soren Kierkegaard here - the further we get from our former ignorance the less tolerant we become of that ignorance) or they are the kinds of people who are trying to remain aloof in an effort to avoid giving away too much information that they may not be able to take back later in an effort to remain anonymous.

When I was sick and off work, I sat on the computer all day long, read, posted, answered one line questions with one line answers and held people's hands. I don't have the time for hand holding right now and would rather try to get my point across and not have to play 20 questions all afternoon. That is why I have been confining myself to threads of people who have been here for a while, those who have decided to try to save their marriage and aren't floundering about so much or to those who are working at recovery already.

Maybe I'll post some of my thoughts about the book on the thread I began about it later if I get time. It really is a manual for counselors or those mentoring in a one on one situation rather than some DIY book but it also has some stuff I think could be applied here as well that would make some of the wailing, weeping and gnashing of teeth stuff less common.

I guess I'm just one of those who is more likely to say, "You know not from whence you speak" rather than, "You don't know what the hell you're talking about."

But if you wanna be a cowboy, you gotta deal with the manure at some point.

This from the guy who had as UA time with his wife for a couple of years the pleasure of muckin' stalls every night.

Mark

Hi all,

Interesting conversation. Mark I like your explanation of Harley's approach. Being a scientist collecting data is how I live and work. You cannot solve the problem unless you really know what it is and while we dont' solve anyones problems on this site, it is our attempts to "guide" them to information, or how we see things that sets the tone for many newbie's approach to solving their own problem.

I also agree with Pep, I have found over the years that there are folks that just don't fit with me or don't "get" what I am saying and I just move on.

Mel does point out that some people won't help themselves and apparently Harley has a low tolerance for folks "doing it their way" as clearly "their way" didn't work or they wouldn't be here or talking to Harley. I must admit and my children will tell you that I have NO TOLERANCE for folks that ask for advice and then won't even consider it. I particularly dislike the "Yes but..." response.

I tell all of the post-docs who work for me and colleaques that I work with that my life is governed by some simple rules.

1. There are no experts on unsolved problems (note the problems on this site have been solved over, and over, and over again.)

2. Credit is not a conserved quantity give it freely.

3. Life is a team sport.

4. There is nothing wrong with being wrong. Staying wrong is unacceptable.

I find folks that don't see these things hard to work with and, since I pick and choose who I work with, I don't spend much time around them.

I'm guessing Harley has a similar set of thoughts. Actually it seems that many of us have similar thoughts.

Regards,

JL

JL, I think you would especially enjoy his book because you are a scientist. You will be amazed at the process he uses and WHY he uses it. Nothing is left to chance. He is very methodical and his every step is well thought out and backed up by surveys, studies, etc. He first sets a goal, assesses the couple, and then very carefully develops a plan for that couple. He checks his progress all along the way, and makes course corrections when warranted. He says that an effective course of treatment should not exceed 8 sessions.

JL


Except amongst politicians, right?

Larry

JL, he lays out his approach to uncooperative people in this book. It was really interesting. He pretty much says what you say here in that those who don't do what he says are not going forward with him, period. He said he sometimes has his office call the couple 2 days in advance and if they haven't done their homework, he cancels the appointment! And then in other cases he said if they don't do what he tells them, they spend the ENTIRE session discussing and resolving why the assigment was not done. He says he can't help those who won't follow his instructions. If you don't do what he says, you are outta here!

Another interesting thing he said was that in the beginning, when he used traditional marriage counseling techniques, he DID NOT CHARGE PEOPLE. He would tell them up front he had a dismal track record. He said his track record was SO BAD that he couldn't take people's money for that.

He changed his techniques entirely and did not start charging people until he was effective at saving marriages. He advises in the book to NEVER overstate your competance. He believes in radical honesty about his skill level and has practiced that for 35 years.

Mel:

He had his reasons as stated. Not charging for what he did made his advice self fulfilling namely because of the value "Free" placed on his service. That said, it was ethical to so do.

And he is a really, really smart man who was attempting to learn what to do and then to pioneer the approach he developed. Would that more of us in this world would practice radical honesty.

I do suspect he has made more money from his books and workshops than from individual therapy sessions. And that is a good thing cause his books extend his reach to those of us who really cannot always afford therapy. I am very interested in his observation that 8 sessions is usually enough.

THAT is a major deal.

I think that I understand all the various hot buttons that cause people to hook up and get married. I am very much looking forward to learning how you take that unreal world and make it work. Apparently his new book reveals. I hope that I can understand it. I am not clinically trained.

Larry

Well, you know how he feels about counselors who delve into childhoods, etc, right? He thinks that is nothing more than a good way to keep people coming back for years. He is adamant that a good counselor will have a PLAN and a meaningful goal. I get the impression that he feels if a counselor can't solve the client's problem in a FEW sessions, then he probably doesn't know what the hell he is doing..

His process is nothing like anything I have ever encountered in all my years of going to counseling and wasting time with endless yakking that never availed anything. It is an amazing surprise.


You will be able to understand it because you have logic. That is all you need to get it. You will eat it up. I can't remember where I heard this, but I remember him saying something to the effect that trained counselors were ruined from their "training" and the ones who do best with his program are laymen like you and me who have never been trained any other way.

The book is fantastic, very easy to read, understand and apply.

He doesn't speak the language of psychobabble so you will have no problem understanding him.

Mel:

For some parts of our society, I follow a guy in Dallas by the name of Ed Wallace wo writes for Business Week, the Ft. Worth Star Telegram, has a radio show on Saturdays and a great web site. He puts great value in critical thinking, another way of saying logic.

So based on that, I guess I can stumble through it without tripping over my own feet too much. BigK's endorsement means something to me too. Hi BigK! And Mark of course Hope I didn't leave anyone out.

Soon as I have read it, or part of it, uh, when I have something to say, I will post it right here.

Thank you very much.

Larry

Hi Larry - I was very sad to read of your divorce. I do hope you are doing well. Did your wife initiate the divorce?

BK, it was a mutual decision. I sorta pushed her into it. In my mind, it was the only way we could have a relationship. I know that sounds strange, but that was what I was thinking. She didn't need to keep going trying to make salad out of the worse decision in her life and I didn't need to keep thinking I was married to someone who I could not trust.

She wanted another child. We both have recessive genes that point to Hirschsprung's disease. Our boy has half a colon from several operations. And I as much or more a part of his life now as I ever was, again a mutual agreement.

There are some flies in the ointment that neither of us expected and I suspect will unwind in time. One other factor was the age difference and thus the generational viewpoints.

I'm ok BigK, I did my duty and upheld my honor. I will never regret marrying her, nor will I regret the divorce. Yea, well, I am also sad that it didn't work, who wouldn't be.

And I thank you for your words.

Larry

You're a hero Larry. I salute you.

Not one BK. I am just a guy who gets up in the morning and does what he thinks is right. There are millions out there who do the same thing. We don't make headlines, we just try to raise our kids to be good people and ourselves to not hurt anyone. But I thank you for your kind words.

Larry

Hello Larry,

I'm with BigK on that....

You ARE a hero in my book. You also helped save Mrs.Flint and I from a VERY similar affair mess involving a relative...

I am so sorry to hear of the loss of your M.

You played the hand you were dealt honorably and well to the end and can rest knowing you did everything possible to try and salvage your M.

Because your FWW's affair and mine were so similar do you mind talking about what eventually caused the loss of your M?

If you saw something we may be able to avoid in our M we would appreciate the heads up to try and head it off!!!

I perfectly understand if you would prefer to not discuss it or wait til a later time...

It is GREAT to see you back helping others.

Thanks again and God bless.

Jim

jimflint

"Because your FWW's affair and mine were so similar do you mind talking about what eventually caused the loss of your M?"

Anything haunting you now?

Jim:

Hiya - glad to hear from you. I remember clearly your situation and I don't think what happened to mine is similar other than the initial affair. I hope you and your wife/family are doing well. If not, then talking about it might help.

1. Wife wanted another child. Recessive Hirschsprung's disease genes in both of us precluded our making another one. I have posted on this.
2. Generational differences. I am way older than she is.
3. Mismatched character flaws in both of us. I haven't posted on this because identification is difficult, but I know they are there.
4. Overhang from the affair which infested all the other factors.

Except for possibly number 4, those conditions do not apply to your situation IMHO.

There remains a large affection base in both of us somewhat tainted by her choice for a new relationship that appears to be unstable. Time will tell.

Frankly, divorce helped provide closure for both us on a chapter in our lives. The stereotype that divorce means you have to hate your former partner does not apply to this one.

Larry

ok, I found more interesting things in this book last night.

"When I see a couple for the first time, I let them know that my program will require a minimum of fifteen hours a week of their time. If they can't dedicate that much time while I'm counseling them, I suggest they find another counselor because my plan won't work without it."

another interesting thing:

"Granted, there are situations when demands may be necessary in marriage. During a spouses affair, for example, I recommend that the betrayed spouse demand there be no contact with the lover. If there is continued contact, separation or even divorce would be the logical consequence. While normally demands don't work, in this case there are no reasonable alternatives because thoughtful requests are even less likely to separate lovers."

Mel:

As to the first, time and money invested makes the lessons more valuable from the "Student's" viewpoint. Of course Harley's methods are of high quality as well.

And the second simply says that working on a partnership is impossible when it is a triangle, NOT a partnership; His ongoing message underlined.

Waiting for the book.

Larry

I agree with this, but the main reason is that it really doesn't WORK if the couple is not spending 15 hours a week together meeting each others needs. So it is a waste of his time and theirs. It is like a drunk thinking he can "recover" and never putting down the drink. If the methods don't work, then all the perceptions in the world won't help that. I can perceive that drinking while going to AA will be effective, but that perception will never trump reality.

When I read the part about the couple having to agree to giving Dr Harley 15 hours per week, I found it rather humorous. It is almost sneaky the way he has them spend that time working on the questionnaires and such the first week, then begins to give them "lessons" that lead them into 15 hours of UA time where they are instructed to meet the four IENs and before long they end up in love with each other...

This is part of what I posted over on MB101 forum about what I got from the book.

And my follow up post was this:

sweet! Thanks for posting it!

Uh-oh. I'm quoting myself now...

As well you should Mark, you have insight and have posted a ton of stuff that helps.

Larry

You got the ton part right...

I've offered Mark lessons....

Loved the WC Fields line in " You Can't Cheatan Honest Man", I think.
As he leaves the diner where a rotund waitres has been rude to him ,he simply says "See you later, Blimpey-pie."

I'm more of a Groucho kind of guy...

"That covers a lot of ground.

Say, you cover a lot of ground yourself.

Better beat it. I hear they're gonna tear you down and put up an apartment building where you're standing.

If you don't like it you can leave in a huff.

If that's too soon, you can leave in a minute and a huff."

I think he just DJed us!!!

Grouch was the best. I loved his line to a male contestant on " You Bet Your Life". Guy told him he had 12 kids.
Groucho: " I love my cigar, too. But , I take it out of my mouth once in a while."

Who? Me?

My smileys are better, too.

They bite, IMO.

OK I'll give you that one!

And if you wonder where his great smilies come from. . .



Larry

no way! I have the best smileys!

Now see what you started Mark. Another silly forum war

Uh Mel, hack, cough, er, gack. I haven't a clue how you did that but I am gonna figure it out sooner or later.

Larry

Night night...

Ok, I know where it came from, I know html is disabled and UBB is enabled. Hmmmmmm.

grrrrr

But it isn't in a code box like Mark's.

double grrrrrr

Maybe it is the difference between the img command and the url thingee. . .

Just quote him Larry and you will see how he did it! Better than reading his novels though!

http://www.stickergiant.com/imgs/250/sp0816.gif

Note Mark, BK, Mel's. And I am trying to figure it out from scratch, but I may give up and sneak a look at the quote.

Larry

I was leaving out the dang location thingee. Thanks BK

Larry

There ya go!

Chasing Rainbows:

Affairs are almost always about infatuation or getting some strange, or whatever.

I am doing this writeup to help explain romantic affairs from a chemistry basis, and no I don't mean emotional chemistry, I mean the scientific kind, biochemistry.

Other than eat up with stupid, ever wonder exactly why an otherwise sane person starts acting like a teenager in love? And why that same person would throw away all of their values, ethics and morals?

Robert Friar is one of the country's experts on the biochemistry of love. He studies brain chemicals and hormones that influence how we fall in and out of love. It is a scientific discipline gaining momentum and explains a lot about love, infatuation, affairs and the state of attraction.

There isn't a single conclusion by Friar or anyone else I have read that disputes Willard Harley's writings, methods or conclusions. In fact, comparing what Harley has to say with studies of the effect of brain chemicals serves to overwhelmingly validate Harley. Friar and other researchers point out how the brain chemicals they have discovered are induced. Once again, Harley is dead on accurate.

According to Friar, there are two types of love. One originates in the hypothalamus. The other originates in the frontal lobe of the brain with help from the pituitary gland. Or at least that is the way I interpret what he is saying. Al Turtle calls it infatuation and vintage love for the two types. For me, I call the two types: Infatuation, and all can agree with that, and the second, lasting love because you can make it last and last, whereas infatuation just dies out in time.

The whole reason for this cocktail of love chemicals seem to be to insure the survival of the race: pairing and the production of kids. Nowhere is it written in our brains that we can only be infected by the chemical soup if we are not already paired up.

Like it or not, admit it or not, there really is no mystery about the chemicals in our brains that promote love, infatuation and affection. But there is a vast difference among that group of drugs in how each affects our thought processes and reactions.

Our brains are programmed by our DNA according to Friar and others. Studies have shown that for men, we are attracted to women with a smaller waist and a near exact, no more than 68% of the hip size. Apparently it dates back to hunter/gatherer, prehistoric time. Yea, I know, men just think they are attracted to large breasts.

Women are naturally attracted to men with broad shoulders, thin waists and larger muscles, Friar says, because it is a leftover function of the hypothalamus from the hunting-gathering mentality of our most ancient ancestors. Women want men who are strong and powerful.

Of course, the definition of strong and powerful has changed over the years as our society and cultures have changed. Friar said that's partly why the second type of love originates from the frontal lobe of the brain, in which humans are able to think and reason in more sophisticated patterns than any other mammal.

This type of love is what allows people to connect with others on the basis of a "Nice personality," Friar says. It's also the part of the brain that attracts one to a lover who shares common interests, such as ballet, traveling to exotic lands or making lots of money.

Researchers are clearly developing a solid body of evidence that love is indeed as much physiology as psychology. A chemistry between lovers is not just a turn of phrase; it is a torrential release of brain chemicals and hormones. And that cascade can be started, it seems, by something as innocent as a casual
conversation about, say, bowling.

Phenylethylamine, the infatuation drug.

Scientists have found that phenylethylamine, or PEA, is a neurotransmitter chemical in the brain that causes you to fall madly in love with someone. It is a natural form of amphetamine that floods the regions of the brain involved in sexual excitement. And those who get hooked on this meth like substance are brain addled, without a doubt.

PEA causes us to act completely out of our minds. Take away the stimulus and PEA starts to die. This is where Harley's no contact comes in.

And PEA acts very much like amphetamine in terms our reaction to the self induced production. Those infected by PEA are much like drug addicts. That is a very good thing when it comes to love and attraction for those looking for mates and a very bad thing when it strikes someone who already has one.

Another problem is; scientists concur that the effects of PEA last only for about the first three to five years into a relationship, if that. Friar says this time frame fits nicely into the human development theory that early man stayed with his mate long enough to procreate and then protect the child during early years of life or until the child was useful to the local clan.

I call this the coyote ugly syndrom. In the quite of the night, a woman or man wakes up to the "Oh, my, God, what have I gotten myself into?" PEA goes away and the addicted suddenly experience reality and all its consequences.

It has been my observation that the more times one is hooked on PEA, the shorter time period before it goes poof in the night. It has also been my observation that more women than men chase after a good infatuation (or bad one) because they mistakenly define infatuation as true love instead of the more lasting, but lower level, real love.

I have absolutely no credentials to back those statements up. I also suspect that reading bodice rippers produces a jolt in PEA
for the reader, who are almost exclusively female.

Anyway, "Marriages don't last on PEA alone," Friar says.

Once PEA drops off in the brain, it's also possible to work up a new batch of PEA for another person, which can explain affairs or people giving themselves a second (or third or fourth) chance at true love or an affair. Friar says the PEA levels for some people may never be as high as they were when experiencing their first love. Most of us know about first love during our teenage years.

But others--thanks mostly to heightened thinking by the frontal lobe of the brain about common interests or shared goals--can actually experience an even greater PEA level later in life than they did in the teenage or college years. This would explain a lot about affairs later in life. And this would also explain why affairs just simply don't work out.

Fueled by PEA, affairs go up like a fourth of July rocket, burst into a brilliant explosion, then fade away as PEA dies. But, the PEA fix can be activated (for a shorter period of time) again at a future date. Don't let your mate go to a high school reunion by themselves, if at all.

Oxytocin is the foundation chemical for longer lasting, real love.

Before doing any quick calculating about the doom of your own relationship, know that oxytocin is a brain peptide that can flow to the rescue of what otherwise could be a short-lived relationship. It is secreted from the pituitary gland and bathes the brain and reproductive tracts of both women and men. This
chemical wash increases our sensitivity to touch and encourages grooming and cuddling in both sexes. It also reduces stress-causing hormones in the body.

Oxytocin is released every time we hold hands or snuggle up close to someone. It bonds us with the people we love most, whether a lover, child, family member or friend. Studies show oxytocin levels peak during orgasm and, for women, delivering a baby and breast-feeding are both actions that send oxytocin levels skyrocketing.

A labor-inducing drug, Pitocin, is a form of oxytocin.

Oxytocin as "hormonal superglue" that keeps us connected to one another long after the PEA wears out. Touching is a key element of producing oxytocin, and "touch deprivation" is a sure way to deplete your supply.

Consuming too much alcohol also can decrease oxytocin levels.

The oxytocin effect is more powerful in women, probably because it works in concert with estrogen (more plentiful in the female body) and is subdued by testosterone (higher in men). Research shows that men who regularly stimulate their mates' oxytocin levels are treated by those women with greater affection.

Friar says some researchers have found oxytocin levels dip below optimal amounts in men and women if a couple doesn't reach orgasm twice each week.

One study of 3,500 individuals finished in 1999 by psychologist David Weeks showed people who have sex at least three times each week appear 10 years younger than their actual age. He interviewed subjects from the U.S. and Europe.

Weeks reasons that oxytocin and its role in affection is one reason for such youthfulness. "It's not a case of these people having more sex because they look younger," he says. "They actually look younger because they are having more sex in loving, stable relationships."

Finally, permit me to observe that Harley's teachings points to an emphasis on oxytocin based love. He also goes into great depth on how to counter the short term effects of PEA induced infatuation as related to affairs.

I took a lot of the material I have used from various articles and attempted to paraphrase the information. I hope I have not violated anyone's copyright. I would appreciate any help anyone wants to give to clean this up into a meaningful explanation for those out there of scientific bent or who just want to know.

Larry

This could help explain why some people, live my STBXWW are unable to maintain long-lasting relationships. They may be unable to manufacture sufficient Oxytocin that enables others to "mature" in a relationship and/or the re-emergence of PEA is so overwhelming that all "sense" is thrown to the wind and another relationship is begun.

In simple numbers alone, my STBXWW is unable to sustain a meaningful relationship for much longer than six years. And my calculations are rough, since I don't know how long she was single between marriages, and how long any other such relationships might have lasted.

Incidentally, my counselor told me that women like my STBXWW tend to bounce between "types" -- they choose abusive, attention-grabbing, all-about-me men and then swap out for quiet, conflict-avoiding "nice guys" and repeat. Knowing what I do about her XH and OM, and knowing that I more fit the latter category than the former, I can say this struck a note with me...

Looking for their fix. I got hooked up with someone like that one time. It was a nightmare.

Larry