Marriage Builders
I'm posting this here 'cause it gets the most traffic. It might be off topic, it might not.

Someone in my office is having some marital difficulties. I don't know much, though this person has made a general announcement to our smallish office and has been very appreciative of the support. What I do know is that he is not living at home at the moment.

I found out a few days after the general announcement as I am not always in the office every work day. Most of us are out and about during the day and might not actually get to the office. At the end of the week, we are usually all there, hence a general meeting.

I offered my sympathy, thoughts and prayers. Most people there know that I've been going through my own tough time. But I don't know what else to do. I would really like to offer up a link or a referral to this website or Dr. Harley's books. But I don't know the specifics of the problem(s) and I really don't feel right asking. Either he or both (again, don't know) are getting counseling but not sure of the particulars.

Any ideas or advice without really seeming like an obnoxious, snooping know-it-all?
OH, I usually just tell them a little about Marriage Builders and why it is different from traditional marriage counseling. MB has saved some pretty bad marriages, whereas traditional MC has an 84% failure rate. I just tell the friend a few basic facts and tell them where to find MB.

What I discover MOST OFTEN is that the couple has been to a traditional marriage counselor and has decided to just GIVE UP. That makes me so sad, because I always wonder if the marriage could have been saved.
I bet we would be friends IRL.
Actually, the failure rate for traditional counseling is 82.786%.(taken from the marriage counseling success studies archive and the encyclopedia Brittanica).
Wow, Z. They've improved.

It wasn't that long ago the failure rate was a little over 1% higher than that.

Seriously, can someone point to a study on this failure rate? It seems a little high, IMO.
My therapist told me that after infidelity, however, his success rate was less than 10%.
But, in general, how is failure rate calculated?
Dr. Harley cites this % from a study done by psychologists for Consumer Reports.
While the MC failure rate is probably mostly result of the techniques practiced, I think it's also due to the fact that, since it's usually only started after the M is in major difficulties, it's basically the equivalent of choosing to renovate the stable after the horses have already bolted.
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Dr. Harley cites this % from a study done by psychologists for Consumer Reports.

IMO, one study is not enough.
Originally Posted by Zelmo
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Dr. Harley cites this % from a study done by psychologists for Consumer Reports.

IMO, one study is not enough.

Disagree. It is for me. And it is for Dr Harley. The report seems to confirm all the experience we see here and his professional background spanning 35 years. I have no reason to believe otherwise.
I don't buy it. If the success rate were that low, the business would dry up. Just does not ring true to me.
Originally Posted by Zelmo
I don't buy it. If the success rate were that low, the business would dry up. Just does not ring true to me.

Your reasoning is not compelling, Zelmo. I don't buy it. What is compelling is that Dr Harley does buy it and cites evidence to back up that opinion. You offer nothing.
�it doesn�t ring true� is not a rational basis on which to dismiss something, in other words. It is an emotional, subjective reaction based on feelings. Feelings are not truth.
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
�it doesn�t ring true� is not a rational basis on which to dismiss something, in other words. It is an emotional, subjective reaction based on feelings. Feelings are not truth.

He cites one study. Heck, you can find one study to support anything.

Let's agree to disagree. Wanna buy a bridge?
Originally Posted by Zelmo
I don't buy it. If the success rate were that low, the business would dry up. Just does not ring true to me.

To me, traditional MC is like the weight loss gadgets/pills we see on TV. Way more failure that success but there's a whole lot of desperate people still buying it anyways.

I shelled out a good amount of cash in MC and it just made things worst. The jury is still out on MB with my case but I feel my chances are much better now.

--ElCamino72
Just googled "marriage counseling success rates". Found some conflicting info. Two clinicians from UCLA report that their study showed that 64% of couples who went to traditional counseling reported imprevement.
Another one, obviously not accurate , from the marriage counselors themselves, says 98% report great improvemnt.
Point is that one can find stuff to justify his position on this, and we need to be skeptical re the $$$ motivation of promoting one's method over another.
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Originally Posted by Zelmo
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
�it doesn�t ring true� is not a rational basis on which to dismiss something, in other words. It is an emotional, subjective reaction based on feelings. Feelings are not truth.

He cites one study. Heck, you can find one study to support anything.

And you cite a feeling, Zelmo. crazy I have much more faith in Dr Harleys expertise, backed up by studies than your feelings.
OH, did you inform your co-worker about MB yet? If she has marital problems, the name marrigebuilding.com should say a lot on it's own. You would not have to go into great detail or know the exact issue she is dealing with. Like Mel said, point out a few highlights. If you speak with her in person, I'd also send an email with the link or give her the website on a sticky as it is easy to forget stuff...especially since she has a lot on her mind.
Originally Posted by NervousNewbie
Bingo. I must admit to some surprise that a Ph.D. would blindly promote the results from a single study of questionable scientific merit (Consumer Reports is not peer-reviewed, AFAIK) in light of so much conflicting evidence. The efficacy of marriage counseling is still very much an open question in the scientific community.

First off, he does not "blindly promote" the findings of one study, he is a voracious researcher of all studies done on the subject. It happens to be just one such study that he cites. There are no such things as "scientific" "peer reviewed" studies in this arena because it is based on self reporting. That is the standard in this arena.
You've cited ONE study (done by a magazine). Studies done by professors, published in peer-reviewed scientific journals, find a quite different conclusion. Here is a meta-analysis that links to several dozen other studies:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3658/is_199510/ai_n8720965/
The Consumer Report study also used the self reporting methodology. By your stated criterion, it's not scientific either.
Z,

I think the problem with success rates varying from one study to another is in defining what is success and what is a failure. "Did we help you?" isn't a very compelling question, IMO.

Most traditional method MCs strive to improve communication and conflict resolution skills. Those things can easily improve a great deal and the couple still not be in love with each other.

Dr Harley actually says that when there is conflict, the way to remain in love is not to focus on the resolution as much as it is to preserve the love you have for each other. He says that remaining in love with each other is more important than finding a resolution to conflict.

He cites couples who seem to have nothing but conflict yet remain married for their entire lives and yet other couples who seem to be able to find resolution to conflict with no trouble at all end up divorced because they fall out of love with each other.

Couples who learn to communicate better often communicate their desires for the divorce settlement with little trouble. Couples who have learned better negotiation skills can negotiate division of assets with no problem at all.

The definition of success for a marriage counselor should be or at least should include as a primary part of that definition whether or not the couple remains married and even better, if they report being happily married.

Does a counselor who claims to be a marriage counselor gauge his or her success on saving marriages and helping couples to have a better marriage or should he just concern himself with helping each marriage partner learn to move on and become a better person?

For me that's the bottom line in any study of marriage counseling techniques. What makes marriages better as opposed to what helps couples deal with the dissolution of the marriage...

You are right that you can find a study to back up almost any opinion, but when you look at the study, many of them are based on a false premise and are actually attempts to justify a preconceived notion of some kind. When the actual numbers involved are looked at and the way those numbers are organized is taken into account, it is actually pretty simple to spot a study that has been fudged.

This was actually what led Dr Harley to looking for his method to begin with. Nobody actually bothered to follow up on couples 5, 10 or more years down the road to see if they were a) still married and b) if they said that they were happily married.

If I have cancer I might find someone who can help me come to grips with my imminent demise. I might even be able to accomplish that on my own. But if I want to live and not die, I want someone who offers a solution that will give me the best chance of survival 10 years, 20 years or some time in the future instead of helping me deal with the loss of my life.

If I measure success rates of marriage counselors as to how many marriages are kept together and become happy, healthy marriages, traditional marriage counseling really doesn't offer a whole lot of hope.

Can they help?

Sure they can. It's just that they often help a couple come to grips with the "reality" of not being in love with each other as opposed to Dr Harley who tries to help them fall in love again. That's why they got married and that will be what keeps the marriage alive.

MB is really the only program that directly addresses that problem.

And just so you understand me, there are MCs that use Dr H's methods and a bunch of programs, some religious based and some secular that actually use his materials as part of their program.

Mark
Originally Posted by NervousNewbie
The Consumer Report study also used the self reporting methodology. By your stated criterion, it's not scientific either.

Which would apply to the studies you cited too, because the only way to judge such things is via self reporting.
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Originally Posted by Zelmo
And you cite a feeling, Zelmo. crazy I have much more faith in Dr Harleys expertise, backed up by studies than your feelings.

**edit**

Yes, he draws his conclusions from STUDIES. Not feelings.
Here is a post written by Dr Harley about this subject of finding good research on the subject:

When I found that the model I've developed had helped over 90% of those I was counseling, I gave up my career as a college professor and started counseling full-time. At the time, I didn't assume that it would save all of the marriages it seemed to help, because I felt there were factors beyond a couple's control. But after 35 years of experience with this model, I'm not convinced that it works with 100% of couples who follow it. I've yet to witness one couple out of the tens of thousands I've seen, that did not experience a healthy and happy marriage by following this model. Personally, I feel it's the only answer to the question, how can a couple have a great marriage for life?

But it�s very difficult to prove that one model of marital satisfaction is superior to another. The ultimate test is to randomly assign couples to various models and to measure their marital satisfaction after the provisions of each model have been implemented.

The training of therapists is a huge problem: How can we be sure that the therapist assigned to each model was properly trained? And there�s also the problem of representation and random assignment: Does the group of volunteer couples represent the population at large? And is the assignment to treatment groups really random? There�s also the ethical problem of assigning couples to a control group where they receive no effective treatment. When they divorce, does the researcher bear any responsibility? Finally, if someone who has a stake in the outcome does the research, it usually shows that their approach is best. Shouldn�t studies of alternative models of marital satisfaction be conducted by those neutral to the outcome?

My own personal experience led me to the model I�ve been using for the past 35 years. But that�s not proof of it�s superiority over other models. What I need is objective studies conducted by those who have no bias that compare this model to others. That�s hard to find even among those who have published hundreds of articles on martial therapy.

But I can direct you to three studies that support my enthusiasm. They all deal with my book, His Needs, Her Needs, the popular application of my model, and the effect it has on couples that read it.

The readers of Marriage Partnership Magazine were asked which self-help book on marriage helped their marriages the most. In that survey, His Needs, Her Needs came out on top. I didn�t know that the survey was even being conducted, so when I called the editor after the results came in, I was curious to know more. He told me that it not only was the top choice, but it was far ahead of second place (Ron R. Lee. Best Books for a Better Marriage: Reader�s Survey . Marriage Partnership Magazine, Spring 1998).

In a national survey that I sponsored, people were asked if any self-help book on marriage solved their marital problems. Out of 57 books that were read, only three were reported to have actually solved marital problems. The three were the Bible, James Dobson�s Love for a Lifetime, and His Needs, Her Needs (Lynn Hanacek Gravel. Americans and Marriage: National Survey of US Adults. Barna Research Group, 2001).

Finally, five out of six couples that read His Needs Her Needs were found to experience significant improvement in marital satisfaction (Julie D. Braswell. The Impact of Reading a Self-Help Book on the Topic of Gender Differences on One�s Perceived Quality of Marriage. Doctoral Dissertation, 1998, Azusa Pacific University.

Granted, these findings are not conclusive evidence that the model I use is superior to every other model of marital satisfaction. But when you find one that works for every couple that actually follows it, you have to be impressed. And coming as I did from almost zero effectiveness to almost complete success, I can�t begin to tell you how convinced I am that it�s the solution to a very difficult problem we face in our society.

I hope this helps answer your question.

Best wishes,
Willard F. Harley, Jr.
**Edit**
Originally Posted by black_raven
OH, did you inform your co-worker about MB yet? If she has marital problems, the name marrigebuilding.com should say a lot on it's own. You would not have to go into great detail or know the exact issue she is dealing with. Like Mel said, point out a few highlights. If you speak with her in person, I'd also send an email with the link or give her the website on a sticky as it is easy to forget stuff...especially since she has a lot on her mind.

My coworker is male which makes it a bit more awkward. And no, I haven't informed him. I'm trying to figure out how without it looking like I'm making a lot of assumptions that are none of my business.
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First off, he did not cite "one study." That is the one I remember. But the publishing vehicle does not speak to the validity of the study. As a nutrition researcher myself, many "studies" that are in peer reviewed journals are there - not because of their merit - but because they are TAINTED with a prevailing bias.
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If the co-worker made a general annoucement to the office about having marital problems and you have already offered support, I'm lost on why he would think you are making assumptions. dontknow It's not like you need to mention infidelity or anything. The site is more than just that.
Your true colors are just shining through today Zelmo!

Somebody Pis in your wheaties at breakfast or what?
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Originally Posted by black_raven
If the co-worker made a general annoucement to the office about having marital problems and you have already offered support, I'm lost on why he would think you are making assumptions. dontknow It's not like you need to mention infidelity or anything. The site is more than just that.

You're probably right B_R. I'm just feeling awkward. I was not in the meeting where the general announcement was made. I had to approach another co-worker to make sense of something that was said in the last meeting (basically thanking the people there for being such great people. I honestly thought someone had died and that's what the thanks were for..).
Melody and/or tst....since this thread got so far hijacked, can you please come over to 101 and help out on the Valentine's thread?
Please keep posts respectful and helpful to the OP! We are all guests here so some respect to the board owners would be appreciated. If this continues the thread will be locked.

Let's get back on topic!
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When marital therapy targets global marital dissatisfaction or communication and problem-solving complaints, treated clients do significantly better than controls. Shadish et al. (1995) did not find significant differences when marital therapy was applied to major affective disorders, problems in coping with medical illness, divorce problems, and sexual dysfunction. However, they caution that the number of studies addressing these latter problems was so small prior to 1988 that it would be premature to draw any conclusions from their meta-analysis.
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An intriguing confound that predicted outcome in their regression analysis was whether treatment was standardized with a manual. Their analysis suggests that treatment standardization may greatly improve outcome.
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Conjoint marital therapy and depression. To begin testing this hypothesis, Prince and Jacobson(1995) reviewed the three most recent and methodologically sound studies comparing marital therapy and individual therapy for distressed couples in which the women were diagnosed as suffering with unipolar depression. O'Leary and Beach (1990) found that behavioral marital therapy (BMT) and individual cognitive therapy (ICT) produced comparable and significant improvement in depressive symptoms at termination and at 1-year follow-up. Only BMT reduced marital distress at both points. Jacobson, Dobson, Fruzzetti, Schmaling, and Salusky (1991) found that for nondistressed couples, ICT and combined BMT-ICT were more effective than BMT in reducing depression. With distressed couples, BMT and ICT were equally effective for depression, but BMT was superior for marital distress.

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Prince and Jacobson (1995) conclude that outpatient marital therapy appears to be as effective as accepted individual treatments for depressed women in distressed marriages. Additionally, it appears to be more effective in alleviating marital distress. However, in terms of clinical significance, even with these improvements, fewer than half of the couples in BMT were nondistressed and undepressed at termination. "Thus, although the primary advantage of marital therapy for depression appears to lie in its capacity to resolve both depressive symptoms and marital distress, there is room for improvement in ... both problem areas" (1995, p. 391). Because it targets both depression and marital distress, Prince and Jacobson consider conjoint marital treatment more cost effective than individual treatment for depressed women in distressed marriages.
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The available data did not support Prince and Jacobson's (1995) hypothesis that conjoint treatment would reduce relapse rates more than individual therapy.
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MFT for Marital Conflict and Divorce

Recent statistics indicate that more than one half of the couples that marry will separate and divorce. Both marital conflict and divorce have a variety of negative effects on the physical and mental health of children and adults (Bray & Hetherington, 1993). Over the last 15 years, a considerable body of research has accumulated on the effectiveness of marital therapy for marital conflict and, more recently, for the prevention of divorce.
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However, in regard to clinical significance, Bray and Jouriles (1995) echo Jacobson and Addis (1993) and Shadish et al. (1993, 1995) in noting that substantially fewer than 50% of the couples in marital therapy become undistressed after therapy. Most change, but not sufficiently to be nonsymptomatic. When long-term effects are factored in, the picture becomes even more discouraging. Jacobson, Schmaling, and Holtzworth-Munroe (1987) found a relapse rate of close to 30% among recovered couples 2 years after the termination of BMT, and Snyder, Wills, and Grady-Fletcher (1991) found a 38% divorce rate 4 years after termination of BMT.

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Bray and Jouriles (1995) take a somewhat more optimistic position about longer term outcome. Of the Jacobson et al. (1987) data, they report that only 9% of the couples that received a complete BMT package separated or divorced, whereas 45% of those who received a component of BMT separated or divorced. They also cite the Snyder et al. (1991) finding that only 3% of the couples in their insight-oriented condition had divorced or separated 4 years posttherapy. Thus, complete BMT and insight-oriented marital therapy in two separate studies prevented divorce better than competing treatments. It is important to remember that the Bray and Jouriles argument for long-term effectiveness relates to marital stability and the prevention of divorce, not the reduction of marital conflict. The data at this point do not support the long-term effectiveness of marital therapy to reduce marital conflict.
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Jacobson and Addis (1993), in their review of the literature, argue along with Snyder, Mangrum, and Wills (1993) that the couples that tend to do best in marital therapy are those who are least distressed, younger, less emotionally disengaged, and less polarized with respect to gender role preferences. Also, as mentioned above in regard to affective disorders, the severity of depression in a spouse diminishes the efficacy of marital therapy.

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Lastly, there is confusion within the marital therapy outcome literature about the extent to which particular studies deal with marital conflict versus marital distress. At times, certain researchers use these terms interchangeably, which undoubtedly clouds research results. It is imperative for marital therapy researchers to distinguish marital distress from marital conflict and to find more reliable and effective ways to measure types and quantities of conflict.

MFT = Marital and Family Therapy
BMT = Behavioral Modification Therapy

All of the above is from the article cited by Zelmo.

And this is why citing individual studies would not help a whole lot of people decide on what to do to save their marriage. Show of hands...

Who understood all of that as it applies to the ongoing debate?

And this is just an article that compares STUDIES and not actual performance of any particular form of MFT or BMT.

Mark

I believe that Dr. Harley has found something real and that the reality is backed up by biological science. I have delved into the actual brain chemistry that associates with love, affairs and recovery as best I can without a degree in biology and chemistry.

I dunno if Harley has read any studies on brain chemistry. I do know that a psychologist in Idaho has and that he has in the past read the posts here. Out of respect for Dr. Harley, I am not going to mention the other guy's name. From what I can see, the other guy uses a variant of Dr. Harley's methods and has for years and years based on his own findings. I think he is retired now but his web site is still working.

In an exchange of emails with the other guy, I learned that he was very much convinced that brain chemistry was the foundation for what we are talking about here. And that he had nothing but respect for Dr. Harley. Like me smile

I have found a teaching biologist who discusses the chicken soup of phenylethylamine, oxytocin and other chemicals that influence infatuation and love. His name is Robert Friar. Do a web search and read. I tried to do a writeup on him and a therapist by the name of Crenshaw and bogged down.

I am positive there are others.

And the conclusions of what chemical studies are out there are lock step with Dr. Harley. One of the keys is the 15 hours of association during the week and another is satisfying the needs of the partner as defined.

So if you are a rare bird like me and want to know the exacting scientific basis for Dr. Harley's teachings, it is out there to be read.

Larry
Originally Posted by ElCamino72
Originally Posted by Zelmo
I don't buy it. If the success rate were that low, the business would dry up. Just does not ring true to me.

To me, traditional MC is like the weight loss gadgets/pills we see on TV. Way more failure that success but there's a whole lot of desperate people still buying it anyways.

I shelled out a good amount of cash in MC and it just made things worst. The jury is still out on MB with my case but I feel my chances are much better now.

--ElCamino72

BINGO, the ads have in small mouse type, "Results Not Typical"

Weight Loss, Start your Home Business, Get out of Debt, they all have the same disclaimers.

To be honest, Dr H has a big one as well, BOTH have to engage in the program. When they do, there is a greater success rate. However, it seems rare that both will engage in his program.
Biggest difference I have seen between MB and other types of marriage counseling.

MB is focused on actions and the belief that feelings follow actions.

When I talk to Steve, he is able to break everything down into actionable mechanics. If you do A, then B happens and the result is C.

When you see it laid out like that, almost like a mathematical equation, it's easy to see why it would work.
Larry,

If you are still reading I copied your post to my Managing Memories thread for further discussion.

Mark

By all means. And I am trying to work some more on the diatribe I mentioned.

Larry
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