Telling the story of my H's face to face apology to OWH <~~~ LINK

I was thinking about this today.

"Why don't more BS's require their wandering spouse to make a face-to-face apology?"

I cannot answer that question.
So, I asked myself a different question.

"Why did I require a face-to-face apology?"

I started to think about the apologies I have made in my life.
When did I begin?
It's difficult to remember the very first apology I made.
But, it was not difficult at all to remember the first memorable apology.

I was in the second grade.
I stole some change that was left in a mail box.
Back in the day, the post office would leave a note saying there was postage due on some piece of mail.
And, the person would place the correct amount due, in the mail box.
I found this "free money" when walking home from school.
My friends and I shared the "booty". We split it 3 ways.
We got ratted out.
My Mother drove me to the house, and made me knock on the door, face my "victim" and hand her the entire amount that was taken (even though I stole a third).
I was genuinely mortified to have to FACE the woman I stole from.
It made a huge impression on me.

As an adult, one of my friend's children stole a very unusual Christmas tree ornament.
I was not 100% sure that the child had taken it.
However, I asked my friend to check her child's room.
And, there it was.
My friend made her child come face to face with me, her victim.
That too made a huge impression on me.
The agony of a face to face apology, is a good lesson.


After we had kids, we discovered our son stole some small trinket from a hobby shop.
Guess what we did?
Yep.
Made our boy go to the owner himself, and hand over the stolen trinket, and apologize.


I imagine, the majority of us were forced, by out parents, to make an apology.
I also imagine, the majority of us have forced our kids to make an apology.

What did we learn?
Why isn't this experience extrapolated into the infidelity experience more often?

I KNOW we cannot "force" an apology from a wayward spouse.
But, we sure as heck can REQUIRE an apology, if the wayward sincerely wants to enjoy our wonderful company ever again.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Back to my second-grade life of crime.
It was the last day of school, before Easter week !
I knew, I just KNEW, I was going to get nothing for Easter.
I still had high hopes there was an actual Easter Bunny, but I was not at all certain if the Easter Bunny kept a "good & bad" list, similar to Santa.

I did get the usual bounty of Easter goodies.
I was convinced it had something to do with my apology.

Pep,

I did not require an apology (face to face would have been harder as H's affair was long distanced and would have meant traveling and such.... But a moot point anyway....). My reasoning at the time was because *I* wanted no such thing from OW. Considering I caught them together and she was not remorseful then ( and even said to me..."you want mess with me, come on, let's go".... ), NOR did she end contact. I knew that my pain meant NOTHING to her. Any apology she would have offered would be to ease her own conscous and would have only brought me MORE pain.

I knew that any attempt to apologize by H to OWH's would have only caused her H more pain.......I asked her H about this 3 months later and he said I was right.....

There are others to whom an apology could be ... required.
Family/Friends/ and the children.
Yes, the children.

To clarify, at the time, in the very beginning of recovery, I was much more interested in NO CONTACT happening......

It is not cookie cutter or clear cut.

Thanks for both insights.

Children ... when they are adult and then again ... maybe.

-rh-

I required one for the kids.....

This is actually NOT the subject I am discussing.
I don't care one whit about any OP apology.
I am thinking about the integrity of the wayward spouse that we invite back into our lives, if we want to stay married after infidelity.
I think THAT is important.

If the wayward lacks the willingness to stand up, face the person(s) they have damaged, confess and apologize ... they can go live somewhere else, as far as I'm concerned.

I certainly don't want such a person, lacking in courage & integrity, co-parenting along my side.
They can co-parent from a separate residence.

In my situation, I did require my husband to apologize to my mother and my sister. They were extremely hurt and upset at what he did to me. My sister told me "I HATE HIM" for what he did to me.

My H initially suggested that we "never see them again" and I suggested otherwise. Like you, I had no interest in remaining married to a coward. Cowards are disgusting. Nor was I willing to sacrifice my own family who had stuck by me through thick and thin for a weasel.

To his great credit, he faced my mother and sister like a MAN and made his apologies. My mother and him are GREAT FRIENDS and they email each other back and forth corny jokes all week long. They crack each other up immensely.

I have the greatest respect for my H for facing the consequences like a MAN and doing what it took to recover our marriage.


I will state it again as I did on another thread, show me a WS who has not made amends to his victims and i will show you someone who is not recovered.

I had my H apologize to my older son and our DD. xOM's wife (he was single during my A) made him meet face to face with my H to apologize. I don't think he did anything more than mumble though.

Melodylane: he has no one to make amends to. no one knows. but me. the "I am sorry" that he said to me once, well it just doesn't cut it.

he has tried in many different ways to touch me, make it up to me...but talk about it, admit it, deal with it...no.

he just wants to move forward like it never happened, like it was some blip on a screen. i think sometimes that he would even like to believe it really wasn't that bad.

when no one knows, no one can hold you accountable. he even said to me the other day. well, you're the only one that knows, you're the only one that could tell, or help me.

not good, not good at all......for me.

I apologized to my children when I explained why their father was not acting normally, i.e. losing his mind. I apologized to my MIL, who was very gracious and forgiving. As my H says, she is my biggest supporter. Neither apology was at my H's urging; it just seemed like the right thing to do, so I did it.

Forgiving myself was ultimately much more difficult than apologizing to others.

pk

PK: are you the WS? if so, did you feel the need to come clean, to apologize?
Would you have felt that if you knew that your secret was safe?

Interesting questions.

I came clean years after the A was over. I could have brazened it out, but my H had been told something and after thinking it over, and talking with my best friend, I just decided not to deny it. My rationale was that if any more came out, I had nothing further to fear. So, my H got everything in one long, excruciating weekend. If there's such a thing as trickle truth, he got a tsunami.

And he was flattened.

As for a secret being safe....I believe that my experience shows that no secret is ever completely safe. Things come out, generally when you least expect them to. So, if we're going to have an exercise in magical thinking ("What if your secret was safe?"), I'd prefer to wonder, "What if I had never been unfaithful?".

pk

penaltykill"

thank you for being so honest.

my WH "trickle" kills me to death...apology to OSH? never would happen....my WH really is a wonderful man....i love him with all my heart and soul...

he really never meant to hurt me,.....but he did...and now that is all i can see......

searching all the phone records....everything...calling him all the time ....after 25 years....it is to much..


should he apologize to me....should he apologize to our children.....should he apologize to her husband.....

me? yes.....after 28 years...i deserve that...our children...no i want them to believe thier father is invincible.....her husband...he is on his own..

Wouldn't a repentant WS apologize of his own accord, not having to be requested or required to? I mean if they were truly repentant how could they stand not to? (I really object to the word "recovered" for a repentant WS, as it sounds like it was something out of their control, like some disease, cancer or alcoholism).

I'm not talking about kids, but of adults. I think that if my husband cheated and he didn't make amends to all his victims, including the other wronged spouse, that yes, I would have a hard time believing that he had come to any kind of repentance.

Can you imagine hurting someone and then just blowing them off? No, it would eat you alive, you would have to apologize. A repentant person could not live with it without making amends, either, as PK said.

So, I guess my question is, do you think by requiring it, you help them to get to that place, Pep? Is that what you are saying? Like you do with kids? Kind of like if I require it and they agree to it, it will lead them to the place of truly feeling sorry for what they have done, and wanting to make it up to the person?

Hi hunny!

I don't think my H was very repentant just after he was busted. But apologizing to my family seemed to help bring that about - to a degree - when he saw the hurt and concern on their faces. Facing the consequences helped him see the effect of his behavior on others. It was very therapeutic.

So melodylane:

what hope is there for the rest of us? is there true recovery without repentance and applolgies to the other family, the wife, the children?

how do i undo the undo-able: how do i forsake a promise i committed to keep.

before MB i said i would tell no-one and i did not...did not tell my best friend, not my daughter who graduated from colledge then started planning her wedding......no one....ever except for you all on MB.

Well, that is ridiculous and helps NO ONE. The only thing worse than making a bad promise is KEEPING a bad promise. Keeping an affair secret keeps him SICK and unrecovered. What is the point of keeping it secret?

Distance prevented H from making a face-to-face apology to OWH but I very much agree there is value in doing so. I never required H to apologize and was honestly surprised he had the presence of mind to think he should offer one. I didn't think OWH would give a rat's butt what H had to say (can't say I blame him) and was mainly interested to see if H would grow a pair and face the man. If OWH wanted to scream at him and tell him the 100 ways he was a lowlife, it was THE LEAST that H could do.

H apologized to our families and children. If H had continued to be a cowardly POS, skankho could have him.

What is the point of keeping the secret?

It allows the WS to save face.

A truly repentant WS is not concerned with saving face, he is concerned with making amends.

Mel (hi kiddo!)I think it's interesting that you are saying that facing the consequences, of seeing the wronged parties' pain, can bring about a change in your own feelings. Okay, got it. But that then is just the beginning. Kind of like with meeting EN's, the feelings follow the actions.

It bothered me that someone would have to *require* a WS to do the apology thing. So, thanks for the clarification. The apology is just the beginning, in this case.

I will add that a face to face apology would mean a lot to me. In some cases, it would even require me to look at my own actions, not always what I want to do. It might even mean that I would have to consider forgiveness.

weaver, I agree with everything you said. I was thinking about my own recovery process in AA, and when I made my amends, I don't think I was truly remorseful when I did it. But I WAS very willing to try and recover and make amends, even though I didn't really FEEL remorse at that point. But going through the process changed something in me. Seeing the faces of the people I had harmed helped bring about a real change of heart in me.

Making amends cleansed my soul as a human being.

Just thinking out loud here...

My WW's apology was by text message...God bless technology.

[quote]It might even mean that I would have to consider forgiveness.
_________________________/quote]

Can you imagine if everybody got an apology today, and we all in turn practiced forgiveness?

I know this wasn't the purpose of the thread, but can you imagine?

This is actually a pretty deep subject because with apologies you do have to consider forgiveness, and in the past I was a huge believer in forgiveness and what that means, but now I am growing leery of the whole forgiveness thing.

On Graycloud's thread we had some pretty heated discussions on forgiveness and how necessary it was, where people actually left over it; the subject of forgiveness was that close.

I think I am starting to understand this, and I wish I had understood it before.

And with all that said, yeah I wouldn't trust someone who didn't apologize for his hurtful and destructive actions, but I wonder what it would take for me to trust the apology. Probably a lot of actions to back it up.

OT, but you deleted your facebook again! Don't you miss my "can this squirrel get more fans than Obama" updates??

Hi Betty!

Firstly, I think you are missing the point - of course, your husband owes many apologies - to you, to your children and to the OWH...All of you were victims in this - and really no apology could ever erase the pain you were caused - HOWEVER, what I believe Pep is talking about is the amount of CHARACTER it builds for someone to face their victim[s], admit wrong doing and apologize to them. Think about the person that you are inviting back into your life - into your heart - Isn't it important that they build/rebuild their character/integrity in order for you to allow them to remain a part of your life? IMO, it should be.

And about this~~~>


Really? You would like for your children to believe something that is FALSE? How will this help them in life?

And I'm not just saying that it is false based upon your husband committing adultery - I am saying it based upon his being HUMAN. Humans are not invincible. Makes me think of an old friend of mine...When I was about 21, I was disillusioned about something one of my parents did - my friend said to me, "Mrs. W, there comes a time in your life when you have to realize that your mama ain't Wonder Woman and your daddy ain't Superman"...I think that is something that kids should learn early myself...I make a point with our daughter [age 10] to always admit when I am wrong, and apologize.

When [notice I didn't say if] humans make unwise choices, there are unpleasant consequences. How each of us fallible humans handle those consequences is important - some great life lessons can be taught by how a parent tackles the fallout from their own unwise choices.

Isn't it more important for your children to see how to properly handle poor life choices? That there are consequences to every choice that we make in life - that we are all responsible for our own choices, and that when those choices are unwise and hurt others that we are to do everything in our power to make amends for them...

IMO, that is a far more loving thing to teach your children, Betty, because it is reality - Purpose to raise them to be adults that understand the importance of personal responsibility and integrity.

Hey there Weaver! Good to "see" ya!

The word "require" as spoken on this thread seems to me to be a boundary. In other words, no one can "make" or "force" their spouse do anything. You can however "require" certain conditions be met in order for someone to remain a part of your life - they are free to choose as they wish.

Mrs. W

I do not understand why you allow that to persist. The very first step in the Marriage Builders program for recovery from an affair seems to be for you to expose the affair. You haven't told anyone that it happened?

Did your parents teach you to apologize when you were young?
Did you ever teach your children to apologize?

Why?
What is the value, the core value, which is the underpinning of an apology?

The apology has no real meaning ... it's the value that the apology represents which is most important (to me).

Why do you think I wrote about how I learned the value of an apology?
I put that first and last in my post, for a reason.
An apology certainly meant little to me the first time (2nd grade) .... except I thought it meant the Easter Bunny would come.

You are missing the point.

Do YOU ever plan to apologize again, the rest of your life?
Why, or why not?
What would it mean if YOU did not apologize for some egregious wrong thing YOU did to another person? To someone you love?
Is an apology only necessary when you like the person you wronged?

I think this apology issue will tell you about the core values of people.

Remember, the woman I stole $$ from, was a complete stranger to me.
My parents, apparently thought I needed to apologize, even to a complete stranger.

How would you feel about yourself if you were not required to apologize to your victims if YOU committed adultery?
Relieved you did not get caught? Really?

What do we learn about our spouse's core values if they fail to, or resist, an apology to their victims?

I knew, 100%, I would have nothing more to do with my wayward if he was cowardly, and failed to apologize.
Nothing.
I do not value such a person as MY spouse and life partner.

Making a necessary apology makes ME a STRONGER person.
Stronger, not weaker.

Becoming STRONGER gives me self worth and the ever desired "self esteem".

I would esteem myself very little if I were so weak and gutless to forgo a necessary apology.
That goes for my spouse, and my kids as well.

I have no idea what your post means.

My post begs the question put forth in my chosen thread title.

The value of a face-to-face apology.

There is value in an apology.
What is that value?
When/where/how do we (did we) learn that value?

Do we teach our children the value of owning up to their misdeeds?
Why do we do this?
And if we teach our children to apologize, why not teach by example?

100% correct understanding of the point I am making.

I would add:

"They are free to choose as they wish" ... from another location, not living with me.

I did not require an my h to apologize because there was no one to apologize to. The FOW was single so no spouse on her side to worry about.

He did apologize to our children on his own accord. I did not ask for it nor require it.

As far as an apology to anyone else i do not feel he owed anyone else an apology. Although his actions may have indirectly affected others, they did not directly affect them so IMHO no apology was needed.

And this right here .... puts YOUR core value on display.

You value the appearance of goodness, not good behavior.

Unfortunately, this seems to be a very common value in today's society.

I refute this.
There are way too many examples to pull from.
Tiger Woods?
How many politicians?
How many celebrities?

Just too common.
Sad. This is just sad.

That is so true! My A was 8 years over by the time someone told my H. He will never believe I was on the verge of confessing, which I was because of finding MB. But I don't blame him for not believing me, after I all I managed to deceive him for a long time and the lies were worse for him than the A itself.

I occassionally toy with the idea of apologizing to my MIL, but then remember how easily she tossed me under the bus for the xOW and the OC.

Make an apology in absentia.
(letter you do not send, or, a speech to the ocean/wind/night sky)
Same thing if the person is dead. In absentia.

Your MIL is not a person who is safe.
In absentia.

Therefore, I assume it is not of value, to you.

I like that one, thank you. No even now she is not safe. I did reach out when her beloved brother died because I loved him, too. But then I went back into my safe, NC mode.

Yes, indeed.
The value of an apology is great.
It allows honest friendships to be born, and to bloom.
Not the appearance of friendship, but true friendship.

My parents grew closer to my H as a result of his actions in the wake of his infidelity.
They grew CLOSER.
Before Mom died, she confided in me that she has so much admiration for Mr Pep and myself. She admired the way we rebuilt our lives.
She admired my husband.

This would never have happened, had H not made his apologies.
..... Because, I would have divorced him.
..... Because, I could not have admired him.
..... Because, I could not have respected him.

Apologies are of value to me but in this instance it was not a requirement because i did not feel it was necessary as there was no one IMHO to apologize to other than the ones he did apologize to.

There is a difference in valuing an apology and wanting or expecting one.

Both of our parents have passed away and had passed away prior to his A.

OK.
I'm game.
What is the difference?

Can the difference (what you are about to say) be applied equally to other values?
Like, fidelity for instance?

Would you say the following:

"There is a difference in valuing fidelity and wanting or expecting fidelity."

I did VALUE the fact that he made the apology even though I did not EXPECT the apology.

I agree with you in the fact that I would make my children apologize for stealing something or for hurting someone in anyway shape or form. And I do EXPECT them to apologize for it. I am not so sure I VALUE it as much though because it was something that I MADE them do or EXPECTED them to do.

I VALUED it more that my h made the apology without the EXPECTATION of it.

There is conflict in your response.

Why don't you think about this for a few days, and post again?
Think about yourself. Your own experiences.
Not your H.
Think about your self-expectations.
Think about what you require from yourself.
And why you require things of yourself.

I think that is probably the best way for you to approach this.

Thanks.

I am not sure what you are asking and i am not sure that i have a conflict in my response.

OK.
Never mind.

How would you feel if you could not apologize?

I would feel like I got my just reward. Like my punishment would be to forever carry the burden of hurting someone and not being able to make amends. Not that an apology in itself will make it right, but it would give me a chance to let someone know that they are not irrelevant.

An apology in the sense you are using seems like it is for the person who is doing the apology. To build character. And maybe it does, but an apology to me is to lessen the pain of someone who has been violated, the apologee, so to speak.

To not apologize means you still care so little for others that you don't care how your actions hurt others. Or that you are so self-centered that you can't see past your own nose to how your actions affect other peoples lives and families. And some people really don't care.

But maybe it is a process, first the actions then the feelings. I like how Mel said that when she first started apologizing she really didn't care that much, but then grew to care and want to make amends.

Some people do value the appearance of looking like a good person more than actually being a good person. Just like some people value the appearance of looking rich more than actually being rich, as in people who use credit to put in granite counter tops and marble tile floors, when they don't have the money. I used to be like that, until I realized it was way better to be rich than to look like you are rich. What changed it for me, was someone pointing it out to me. I started look at my finances and saw I owed more than I had. And when I started changing this, and saw that I was beginning to have more than I owed, it felt pretty dang good. Now it is a part of who I am.

Is that a good analogy?



OT:
Hi Mrs. W.
Mel, why yes, yes I do! I'm the facebook deactivation queen! My daughter says I don't get FB, and she is right! LOL

Faith, I did the letter apology once and couldn't mail it because I don't know where she went. It helped me at the time, of course it did nothing for her, obviously. Your sitch is different, but I think (now) for me I was really apologizing to God. I needed *me* to feel better, yes, but I also needed to really examine my actions at the time I injured someone else. I needed to really think about it and what might have meant to her and her life.

My husband apologized to me about something he did that really hurt me. I didn't believe him and said that words don't mean anything. I wanted actions.

Well, since then he has done no actions.

I probably should have just accepted his apology with grace, and maybe the actions would have followed.

That would be a definite bonus !

However, it's also something we have no control over.
The other person's emotional response/reaction to our apology is not within our ability to control/manage/predict.
Therefore, in my opinion, we begin with a different purpose.
Doing something because it is the right thing to do.

God, I'm such a hypocrite. I sit here and say how important being able to apologize to someone is to me, but then when someone apologizes to me I don't trust it, or accept it.

I just realized this. I don't grant my husband the basic goodness of allowing him to apologize.

I love you so much Weaver !

Right back atcha, Pep.

Thanks for this thread.

What I value about YOU, is your willingness to "go there".
Dig deeper.
Search out new areas.
You are an inspiration !
Truly, you are.

Maybe.
Sometimes.

Another possibility for avoiding an apology ~~~> an aversion to conflict.
Something I notice with frequency on this site.
An honest apology actually means honest engagement with another person.
It means being OPEN to whatever reaction they might have to your apology.

Conflict avoiders resist any honest engagement if they think it will upset the apple cart.

To such people, a peaceful falsehood is preferable to truthful/honest conflict.

This usually just means ~~~> more hell-to-pay down the road.

the trunk of my car........------> Not off to finish delivery.....

BTW, I misunderstood the intent of this thread when I posted.....sorry about that

SEE HOW EASY AN APOLOGY CAN BE?


Accepted. With cookie bonus, of course.

Ya know, growing up ( and actually still today), whenever my sister and I would get into a fight, my dad would come and talk to us. He would tell whoever started it to apologize for whatever the offense was. Then he would talk to the offendee and see if they had done anything wrong, even if they weren't the instigater. He would then tell us that we needed to apologize for our part.

Of course, *I* never liked this part. But he would tell me, "Not, you may not have started this and may have only been 10% in the wrong if this problem, but you still need to apologize for your 10%......."

He still tells us this stuff today. AND he follows his beliefs with actions......He always apologizes whenever he hurts someone.....

My Daddy is a wise man.....

And all the BIGGER MAN, in your eyes.
(I love this story. Thanks)

Indeed !

And I bet your Daddy would never allow you to avoid an apology you owed because someone ELSE was not asked to apologize for the same/similar offense.

"So-and-so got away without an apology. Why should I apologize?"

I mean, really?

Truthfully, I really can't remember but probably not. Now, as adult, he will STILL call us whenever there is discontent in the family to give us the "90/10" lecture, as we Luke to call it...... He likes to remind us the keep our side of the street clean....

Glad you like the story. I thought you might enjoy it.....


Not2fun