I feel like I have a very complicated and unique set of circumstances and would like some opinions on how to proceed.

My wife have been married for 15 years with two young children (7 and 10).

Two years ago my wife graduated from nursing school. After working for only a few months she was sent home �ill� and eventually diagnosed with Chronic Fatigue Syndrome and Fibromyalgia. She hasn�t returned to work. She was in a fairly deep depression for the first year.

About a year ago (one year after her diagnosis) she started spending a lot of time on Facebook. She reconnected with a couple of old male friends from high school and began lying to me, chatting, texting and talking on the phone with them frequently. She basically had two emotional affairs that ended after I discovered this and eventually gave her an ultimatum (me or them).

During this time we did a lot of fighting, which led to an agreement to separate. My wife has been living in an apartment for the last six months.

While she seems to have ended contact with her first two EAs, she has continued to display �unfaithful� behavior. She has continued to find new men to text and talk on the phone with since moving out. I have no proof of anything more than phone and computer activity.

The phone usage seems to have finally stopped as of two months ago, but I am not able to see what she might be doing with her computer. When she visits the house, she spends hours upon hours on the computer and I have no idea what she�s doing. If I ask, she says she�s checking Facebook.

She has also distanced herself not only from me, but from our children, her family, and her old (married) friends. Her two best �new� friends are both single. She goes out once or twice to a bar that is around the corner from her apartment � usually staying out from around 10pm until 3am or closing time. She is open to me about when she goes and who she goes with.

My belief is that my wife is either addicted to her laptop and iPhone, or more likely is addicted to attention from other men. I honestly don�t think she�s having a classic affair, but her behavior is NOT acceptable.

Can I apply the Marriage Builders concepts methods to my situation? Where do I begin?

I would start here

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5525_qa.html

Welcome to MB.

I do not understand. You want to recover the marriage? How about your wife? Is she done with the marriage. It seems that you both agreed to separate. If you want to save your M your wife has to agree to stop her computer addiction and you need evidence that she is not engaged in an A. YOu also need to ask her to move back in with you, plan A her and she has to stop her independent behavior, such as going to bars....
Lots to do...
blessing

I want to save the marriage. My wife says she wants to save the marriage and has been spending more time at home and less at her apartment.

Plan A usually involves cutting off contact with a specific other "person", correct? So are you suggesting that I treat her laptop and iPhone as that "other man?" and demand that she somehow prove to me that she isn't using them to carry on unfaithful activities?

So do I actually tell her that I need her to stop using her PC and Phone altogether and allow me total and complete access to them?

For some reason our marriage therapist has seemed to take my wife's side regarding her right to privacy.

After a year of dealing with this behavior, is it too late for Plan A?

i'm sorry you're here, What Can I Do--but on the other hand, this is definitely the right place for you to begin rebuilding your marriage. I don't know how familiar you are with MB principles, so here's a link to a summary of Dr. Harley's Basic Concepts--
http://marriagebuilders.com/ca/to.cgi?l=pop6

i agree, your wife's behavior is very troubling--it sounds to me like she is heading for a full-blown affair if she isn't engaged in one already.

her "open-ness" about where she's going, who she's talking to, etc. sound like a means of both testing you and trying to elicit a response. pretty much ANY husband would object to what she's doing: buddying up to ex-boyfriends and random men on facebook?? no MA'AM! hanging around in bars with single friends? asking for trouble. that's where slimy men who live to undermine marriages hang out. there may as well be a Lonely Housewives night. here's the thing--your wife WANTS you to object, and if you state the obvious (see above), she's going to tell herself you're being controlling and jealous and not letting her have any fun. BUT if you continue to accept it without putting your foot down, she's going to tell herself that you don't care and that you're oblivious.

you're doing the right thing by monitoring her activity, checking phone records, etc--as more people reply to your post, you'll hear it referred to as "snooping", and you'll see it heartily ENCOURAGED. snooping has no negative connotation on this site. see it as your right, and in fact, your due diligence.

does your wife want to move back in? or is she deliberately distancing herself and trying out life as a single woman? do you WANT her to move back in?

if you two are working towards reconciliation and want to be happy TOGETHER in the same household, you need to let her know that her attention-seeking behavior needs to stop. if she were engaged in a physical affair, MB would call for a policy of complete NON-CONTACT with the other man--no texts, no visits, no calls, emails, status updates on facebook, no messages relayed through third parties, NOTHING. a clean break. in this case, assuming you're right and she is in fact just skirting the edge of an affair (or multiple affairs), it is totally fair for you to insist that she stop seeking male "friendship", however seemingly innocent. you'll be hearing lots about the importance of meeting one another's emotional needs and cultivating love, but until she stops her desperate flirtation, she's very unlikely to ALLOW you to meet her emotional needs. and until then, she's not likely to recommit herself to a loving and mutually satisfying marriage.

not to at all put the onus on you, here, but why do you think she's addicted to attention from OTHER men?
will she accept affection and attention from you?
would she before the separation?
has she responded favorably to any type of "olive branch' you've extended since the separation?
may i ask what you fought about?

hang in there--you'll get many replies from the real MB veterans pretty soon!

My theory about how we got here - I took on a lot of additional responsibilities with the kids and the house when she was in nursing school (2-4 years ago). She was gone a lot and working very hard towards getting her degree, so there was some distance created there. Then, when she became sick, I just carried on those same routines.

I think I've been there for her. I was there - went to many, many appointments - listened to her talk for hours about her condition, possible diagnosis, lab results, doctors visits, etc., etc. But I guess I wasn't giving her the type of attention that she is looking for now. She's found that attention on the internet. And there are guys out there who aren't married, don't have young kids, and maybe don't even have a job, who are more than happy to spend hours entertaining her.

And of course the longer this goes on, the harder it is for me to even want to meet her needs.

I have just started reading Surviving the Affair and I find it hard to apply. All I know right now is that my wife spends hours a day on the computer and I have no idea what she could be doing. I only have suspicions - based on everything else that's happened over the last year - but no real "proof" of how she's spending her time.

I'm sorry.

Let me also add that she generally responds positively to any efforts I make. Her sex drive is also higher than its been in years - she still comes to me for THAT need.

She says she wants to come home, but she is unwilling to make what I think are the necessary changes. I just talked on the phone with her and mentioned the amount of time she spent on the PC and how much I'd like to see what has her so "fascinated." Her response was that I need to just leave her alone and let her have her alone time. This is really hard given all of the lies that she has told me. I feel like she needs to begin to SHOW me that she isn't being unfaithful, but she is unwilling to do anything differently right now.

Put a keylogger on your home PC.

She's using "her" laptop, which she basically guards with her life.

Since we are separated, my options for spying are somewhat limited.

After the EAs I started keeping an eye on the cell phone bill. Texts and minutes started racking up - she said with girlfriends. One day I finally decided to call the 6 most frequent numbers - 4 were guys, 1 girl and one generic voice mail. That was about 6 months ago.

The calls and texting mostly stopped after that - with a few relapses since - but she's very guarded with her iPhone (very powerful little machines - so many ways to IM or message) and her laptop too.

"not to at all put the onus on you, here, but why do you think she's addicted to attention from OTHER men?"

They are helping her feel better; she has low self esteem; I can't go to work, take care of two kids, and then stay up late hanging out with her; plus, I'm sure its very exciting to sneak around like this

"will she accept affection and attention from you?" - yes, usually

"would she before the separation?" - yes - always acted like nothing was wrong before;

"has she responded favorably to any type of "olive branch' you've extended since the separation?" - yes

"may i ask what you fought about?" - mainly about her behaviors; she claims she's done very little wrong - that she should be able to talk to whoever she wants; that its OK to go out with single girlfriends until 3am; she's very concerned with her "freedom";

Tell me that you are not financially supporting her single life. If you are that's where you start. By cutting off her access to all your bank accounts and credit cards. If you don't....why should she stop? I mean she has the best of both worlds. No responsibilities and a cash cow that supports her fun.

sound advice. TheRoad does not play whatsoever.

also: PRE-PAID WIRELESS and 24-GYM MEMBERSHIPS ARE A CHEATER'S BEST FRIENDS.

We still have joint accounts. She has some income, but she would not be able to afford her current lifestyle without a decent amount of support from me.

Right now - if I can get my head wrapped around it - what I have in mind is one last ditch "Plan A" type effort with a timeline.

If I'm doing "Plan A" - do I really want to cut off financial support?

Well doh, the answer is pretty straight-forward, isn't it? If you want to save your M, don't fund choices that damage it. Indicated that you intend to contribute ONLY towards those bills that don't support a single life-style.

e.g. Who pays the rent on that apartment? She does, with her only money (not from the joint account!). Why? Keeping a separate apartment supports a single life-style.

sounds like she started enjoying her independence and her new career, having fun dealing with colleagues, feeling professional and important. all good things, if she appreciated your support around the house and viewed her new career as a TEAM endeavor--something she was able to pursue because of your willingness to pick up the slack at home, and something she can share with you.

it was kind of you to be there for her when she became ill. i know it's taxing to care for someone in that situation.

from what i've heard, this doesn't seem to be about you. i'll hypothesize that she hates feeling needy, and she hates that she's sick and had to give up her new, exciting career. so she's found a less healthy and less satisfying way to satisfy her need to feel important, needed, clever, fun, interesting.

she knows she's adequately CARED FOR, but it's hard to be the recipient of care and support for a long time and still feel exciting and attractive. after all, you've seen her at her worst and weakest, and she knows it--these little facebook buddies see only the facets of her personality that she wants to present, the best photos, the cleverest quips.

true facebook junkies always post stuff like "just got back from Cali, getting ready to grill bacon-wrapped oysters, then hitting the trail for my evening 30-mile run to recover from jet-lag--gotta be back in time for gallery opening this eve! ciao!" in real life, that translates as "just opened new jar of peanut-butter, gonna eat it all! ciao!"

if you can stoop so far as to join facebook and be her friend, you can at least see what people are posting on her page.

The apartment - as with everything else - has become complicated.

Right now she is upset with me because I'm not ready to end the lease. I don't want her to come home permanently until I'm sure this will work. She says she wants to come home, but she will not commit to being open about her computer activities and she won't agree to stop going out.

RemainNameless - I tend to agree with you - I don't take this too personally. She isn't just pushing me away, but she's also skipping out on her responsibilities as a parent and is out of touch with her family and old friends.

I think shes simply gravitating towards things that make her feel good NOW with no regards to the long term consequences. So - if she can log onto Facebook and flirt online, thats a lot more fun than listening to me talk about homework, housework, or our marriage. And hell - I'm not even sure that's what she's actually doing!

Our marriage counselor says she believes my wife is still dealing with a difficult transition phase caused by her health problems - similar to a mid-life crisis.

But she's now had two years to "find herself" after her life was changed. The first year was spent being depressed and chasing a diagnosis. The last year has been spent trying to have fun. At some point she needs to find something to fill all of this time she has - something other than FB or whatever else she's doing.

Oh - and I am her friend on FB. Part of what drives me insane and furthers my suspicions is that she's frequently "typing" on her iPhone. If I ask what she's doing, she says "checking FB" - but her page really isn't all that busy. We have a lot of common friends - I don't see her post much on their pages. So I have no idea what she's typing.

Makes me think she's using the Chat feature, or using a secret E-mail account, Yahoo IM or something else.

Hi niceguy, welcome to Marriage Builders. Sorry you are here. Unfortunately, you have recieved some very bad advice from this therapist. The therapist has encouraged you to be an enabler, which is why you find yourself in this dreadful situation. It will only get worse as time passes.

You are helping your wife destroy your marriage, when what she needs is someone to fight for the marriage and lead her out of her darkness.

I don't know if this can be saved, but your best chance is to stop enabling and start fighting for your marriage. Otherwise, your wife has no motivation stop her destructive behavior and come back.

Go listen to the links on this thread and then come back and lets talk: [especially link #2 here ] here

What a load of crap. Your wife is a wayward who is dealing with addictions, to the internet and to other men. Your MC is just wasting your time while your marriage goes down the toilet.

The truth, niceguy, is that your MC doesn't have the slightest idea what she is doing and is giving you horrendous advice. Your W is addicted to the internet and is having an affair. She is not doing that because of her health or a "MLC," that is just an excuse to avoid taking steps to save your marriage.

Marriage counselors have an 84% failure rate and actually have a higher personal divorce rate than the general population.

Absolutely. You should NOT be using family money to finance her destructive, adulterous lifestyle.

niceguy, you have been an enabler to a shocking degree, my friend. You have been driving the alcoholic to the bar and paying for her drinks and then complaining that she is a drunk.

That has to change if you want to have any hope of saving your marriage.

Think of cutting her off financially as part of the stick of Plan A. You are not going to enable the affair in ANY way. Have you read the thread about the carrot and the stick of Plan A yet?

End the lease - you should not be financing her single lifestyle. In any case, if you intend to "Plan A" your WW, that's likely going to be a lot more effective if she's under the same roof.

If she continues to be dishonest, then when you're tired of Plan A, your next step should be pretty clear.

Your situation reminds me a lot of what I went through.

Here�s the reality. There may not be a one specific OM. There might be several that she�s enjoying getting attention from and setting up dates with. Being out of the house makes it very easy for her to meet up with other guys from the internet.

In my situation there wasn�t any one specific man but several. She told these guys that she was in the process of divorcing, which was not true at all.

Understand that you can�t believe a single word that comes out of her mouth. Also understand that counselors generally have their heads up their butt and don�t know how to read a cheating spouse. Mine told me that this was some phase she was going through, would eventually snap out of it, and then come back to the marriage.

It�s time, my friend, for you to do something which is very hard for BH�s to do. It�s time to grow a pair, lay down the rules, and then start following through.

Yes, you can Plan A. But Plan A doesn�t mean you�re a doormat.

The things you need to do to recover your marriage will tick her off to no end. But the number one thing you need to do is to cut the crack pipe. Quit funding the things she�s using to cheat on you.

When she gets ticked, you simply say that you will treat her like your wife when she decides to act like it.

The things you need to do to save your marriage are counter intuitive, will upset her to no end, and are hard to do.

But you strike me as a man who has the mental capacity to understand this. You�re in a good place for guidance.

Lostdads - where do you stand now? How well did this step work for you?

Also - Maninmotion - are you telling me to "invite" my wife back home in order to not allow her the opportunity to have that "secret life"? Am I correct that I should only do this IF she agrees to 100% openness and honesty?

I don't want her to come home unless I'm SURE - in part because I don't want the kids getting excited that this mess is over, only to have her move out again and break their hearts after a few months.

I mentioned this in your other thread, The Carrot and the Stick. Here is the post, you should read this and study up on Plan A. I never had to do it so I hesitate to say too much but this is a great thread.

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1518204#Post1518204

How do you counter the argument that we all deserve our privacy? Just ignore and it and restate your position? I guess its not worth your time trying to convince them that they are wrong.

And now I'm asking for a little "emotional" support here too I guess.

This has been so hard to deal with after having been married with no major speedbumps for 14 years.

Her first EA started on the Saturday before Father's Day last year, so I guess that makes this our one year anniversary of [censored].

Last night my wife got a little emotional, saying that she really wanted to end her lease and come home. I told her that I couldn't live with her while she was spending so much time on the laptop doing something that is supposedly none of my business. I told her that I'd been doing some reading and I'm starting to believe that I will never feel better about her online/iPhone activities until she's willing to allow me access to her phone and computer. Her response was typical - she deserves privacy. She shouldn't have to choose between having a husband and being able to use the computer. I said that I shouldn't have to be married to someone who isn't willing to share their life with me and shouldn't have to live in a constant state of wondering what my wife is doing.

I was firm but kind. I did not make this an ultimatum - yet. I understand that I need to, but I'm just finding it hard.

Thank you for listening.

I�m divorced now and am going to remarry soon. It�s not the answer you want to hear.

The greatest regret for me looking back was that I didn�t secure my rights as a dad up front. It took a long and arduous battle later to do it.

As far as your question about privacy: There�s a difference between privacy and secrecy. Privacy is closing the bathroom when you�re going. Secrecy is doing things your spouse would obviously not approve of and keeping them from them.

A marriage is a partnership that depends on complete openness and honest. Part of the vows is to �forsake all others�. Friendships of the opposite sex are dangerous and should not be engaged in as individuals but as a couple. If a friend isn�t a friend of the couple, then they could be a threat to the marriage.

So when she rants about privacy, ask her if she�s protecting her privacy or if she�s protecting her secrecy. What is so bad that she can�t share with her husband?

The greatest thing I could have done in my situation was to let go of my emotions and function on logic alone. The reality is that women are a dime a dozen and you can find happiness again. A cheating spouse is an abuser. There�s little playing around with them. They should be grateful for your willingness to forgive their indiscretions.

Your WW is actively flirting with other men. The best dose of reality you can give her is the hard slap of reality that getting thrown out on her butt has. She is cake eating.

I commend you for holding your ground, but I would cutoff her financial support. She can get a job if she wishes to use her computer and phone to flirt with other men. You won't pay for such abuse.

The choice for her is simple: committ to the marriage and be open, or get a job and support yourself because you as a man won't stand around to be disrespected as she is doing so now.

My "dime a dozen" comment applies to men as well. Betrayed spouses do best when they have little tolerance of the wayward behavior.

Those that beg, plead, whine, and mope do the worst.

You're not the latter, thankfully. Stand your ground and stand by your principles. You'll look back with pride that you did.

I personally would counter it by saying:

* We are married, and everything we do affects one another, so we deserve to know about it.
* We are married, and we are one.
* I will not stay in a marriage with someone who keeps secrets from me.
* (And I would ultimately make good on point 3, through a Plan A -> Plan B -> divorce. And personally, I would feel no obligation to Plan A and Plan B, depending on circumstances.)

I agree with helpthelostdads. I honestly think you maximize your chances of recovering a happy, healthy marriage if you adopt his attitude. And even if not, I KNOW you maximize your chances of recovering your self-respect and your own personal happiness. If you set the bar low, your wife will live down to it. And you will be miserable. If you set the bar high, your wife might live up to it, or she might leave, in which case you'd know for a fact it's better to be away from her.

Why not give the Marriage Builders Plan A/Plan B route a try? Plan A has a carrot and a stick. Part of the stick is that you do not tolerate adultery or adulterous behavior (including secrecy, lying, dating, and courtship behavior).

That isn't right nice777guy,
If she isn't doing anything wrong she wouldn't have a problem with giving you access....stop being so nice.
Tell her if she doesn't give you access and stop you from wondering what she is up to then she is choosing the comp over her marriage, that it's her choice...
Tell her that unless she is willing to proceed in an honest, transparent way that the two of you should move forward and she should start looking after herself if she wants a private life.....
Why would she change her behavior right now, it's easy for her, she really isn't feeling any hardship by making the decision she is making......
Don't be so available, let her feel what life would be like just her and her comp.......
I think you are being very reasonable, but maybe it's time to make her decide which one it is.......
Can you imagine yourself living with this doubt the rest of your life?
You deserve someone committed to you........

The last two nights we've discussed my need for openness and transparency. Last night we discussed it in therapy. I made it clear to her that she cannot move home unless she allows me access to her "life". I directly asked for all account info and passwords, and told her I wanted to set down with her and have her show me her iPhone and how she uses it, and that I need access to her laptop.

Night before last she said I was being ridiculous. During therapy, she was angry and defensive. The counselor - who in the past had defended her right to privacy - changed the tune and helped by reinforcing that my wife has a "choice" to keep secrets and do as she pleases. And I reminded her that I have a lot of choices too.

And yes - the "positive" spin - was for me to say that we'll BOTH be miserable if I continue to feel I can't trust her.

AFTER therapy, we talked for another 30 minutes in the parking lot. My wife quickly went from angry and defensive to being vulnerable and hurt - saying that she's confused and unhappy (which I completely believe).

So - where we left things - I'm not going to spend time with her while she continues to hide such a big part of her life from me. She can choose to be open or she can choose privacy - but privacy does not benefit the marriage. If she doesn't want to give me her account info, I told her that I was willing to listen to other suggestions, but that I needed to KNOW what she was doing.

I stopped just short of giving her an ultimatum. And no, I didn't threaten to cut off funds. But I did tell her that if things didn't change SOON (end of summer/August is the deadline in my head to have transparency) that we need to move on to a more formal, and potential legal separation, including establishing separate finances and having as little contact as possible. I told her that this distance would be necessary to keep her from completely killing the love that I have left for her.

She left promising to change. I've heard those promises before and don't have my hopes very high at the moment.

niceguy, I tell you what would probably save your marriage and lift your wife out of this depression. Cut off her money completely. Tell her since you are separated that you won't be paying for her affair pad anymore. She is a big girl and can finance her own pad. Tell her she can't come home unless and until she agrees to very specific things:

1. no more computer time - give up her computer

2. complete openess and transparency with her phone, whereabouts, no "privacy"

3. commit to marital recovery program with the Harleys

Go present her with this and see what her reaction is. I bet she tries to negotiate the conditions, ie: "I will not give up my computer! blah, blah.." Don't argue with her, just say, "ok, its up to you to accept or reject my plan. I will understand if this deal if too tough for you." Then leave.

Give her a plan B letter telling her that you love her but will have no contact with her until she gives up her destructive lifestyle and commits to a program of recovery. Set out a schedule of visitation [not in your house!!] in the letter and designate an intermediary for all essential contact about the children. Plan B means to go dark as night, she should never see, speak or email you. You have to close off all avenues. That means changing the locks.

Then go down and file for divorce on grounds of adultery, abandonment. Let her be served in her apartment.

This will give your wife 2 much needed things, niceguy, the motivation to change and a PATH BACK. You cannot lose with this plan, because if she doesn't wake up, you will have lost nothing and are legally protected. Your children are legally protected.

Your current plan is nothing more than enabling, niceguy. You are contributing to the demise of your marriage. If anything will wake you wife up, it will be this plan. And if she doesn't wake up, you are better off without her.

Give me a break.


This "counselor" has just about completely destroyed your marriage. Do you not see that? She has given you dreadful advice that has led to you to this sad state. And what is sickening is that you probably pay money for this.

NG, this counselor doesn't have the slightest idea how to save marriages and anyone on this board who has saved thier marriage will tell you that. Her advice is completely counter to what Dr Harley, a clinical psychologist and founder of MB would tell you. We have saved our marriages using his advice, yours is going down the tube.

Listen to what Melody is saying here. I encourage you to steep yourself in this site reading everything, getting the books either here or you maybe can find them in the library. Maybe you could send her some particular quotes that would start her interest? Things about building romance and love and having fun together again? If she likes her computer so much get her interested in the program and then send her here. The incredible, wonderful people on this site will set her straight very quickly thereby relieving you of some of the hard parts. Key log her computer first so you know that she is here. Some people like to keep this site quiet understandably because they need it. My husband found it all by himself so we both posted and it was essential for his recovery. Ask Melody, he was a real stinker and she actually gave him an award! (Melody, I can beat that one with something else he said earlier but I refuse to post it)

Set your goals, your bottom line. Make them very clear and write them out. Read them frequently and get a copy to her. Make sure she understands them and then do not waver. It is hard to be nice while having to do this but remember your goal and suck it up. Stay strong, stay pleasant and make yourself seem like the best and safest place to be.

I think, on balance, you�re doing well. The decision to cut off finances is not an easy one, but it is never easy to do something hard against someone you love and who you feel is simply misguided.

The fact is that your wife is basically using her computer to flirt with men. Mine did the same thing. She has the opportunity to meet with these men, go on dates, and do so in a manner that you don�t know about since she�s not living with you.

Your situation reminds me a ton of my own. You have a wife is was constantly sick and you stuck by her side. Things get better and she forgets all the sacrifices you made for her while she was sick. She instead wishes to be single again.

Don�t think for one second that she�s not flirting with other guys online, if she doesn�t have a specific one already.

She is cake eating. She wants to stay married to you yet she wants to keep flirting online.

The counselor has his/her head up their a$$. There�s rules in marriage. Maintaining secret relationships in a marriage is, by definition, destructive. It has nothing to do with privacy and has everything to do with secrecy. Call it for what it is. She is flirting with men online. She is using the internet to maintain secret friendships with other men. She has already had two emotional affairs. This is still happening.

Your counselor needs to be called on it. Ask how your wife would feel if you were the one flirting with women online and had a history of having emotional affairs on the internet.

Right now you need to guard your finances. Trust me when I tell you that a wayward will clean you out when she gets the chance. Mine took out most of our account and deposited into another one she created for herself. I trusted her and thought she�d never do such a thing.

You moving your finances is protecting them from her behavior. She�s not demonstrating that she�s responsible in the least.

Let her know there are consequences to the two paths she�s on. The path to the marriage is the easiest. All she has to do is commit, drop all secrets, and come home.

The other path is being cutoff. I suggest a Plan B before you divorce. You have nothing to lose by doing so. A Plan B means that you file to get a separation with a custody arrangement putting you as the primary caretaker of the children, getting her for child support, and suggesting to her that the path to the fantasy life is one where she will lose a lot more than gain and that you will NOT be a �friend� if your marriage fails.

Those are her options.

I admire what you�ve been able to do so far. I wish I had been as strong as you. Now comes the real hard part. Lay down the options and follow through on them.

Plan B means you cut her off completely. She can support herself if she wishes to pursue this avenue. You have no obligation to her if she wishes to continue to behave like a single person.

Also, stick to one thread.

I think this is where many BS's get mixed up. They confuse compassion with enabling and there is nothing compassionate about enabling. It is like handing a shotgun to a suicidal person. The compassionate, caring thing would be to help his wife STOP her destructive behavior, not to aide and abet it.

Plan A questions...

Do you keep the fact that you are doing something called Plan A a secret? It almost seems like if I sent her a link to this site, or allowed her to see my Surviving the Affair book, I would lose a bit a leverage by allowing her to see my gameplan. Also feels I'm not being 100% honest if I hide it.

Trying to understand how to make the marriage seem appealing while also making sure she understands my new boundaries. Seems hard to do this without nagging or Lovebusting. I've asked for all passwords - her response has been to stay off of her laptop. I feel a bit better, but staying off the laptop for a short time isn't a long-term solution. She's also cut back on her iPhone activity and she's started reading people's facebook updates to me - I guess in an effort to "prove" what she's doing. So - do I push her everytime she's on her phone, or do I just periodically - once a week, once a day - remind her of my boundaries?

Another question.

Just being very, very honest here.

Sometimes I just don't feel strong enough to take some of these steps. Some of the steps make more sense than others. I am finally begining to realize that access to everything is NECESSARY, while for the longest time I really wanted to believe that we could rebuild trust while maintaining some normal level of privacy.

Right now, cutting off money, doesn't seem "necessary". First of all, I would expect that we would split all liquid assets - right? If so, with half our cash and her current limited income, she'd be just fine for about a year (I've crunched the numbers and have a good feel for what we have and what she would need). So there would be no immediate effect.

And yes - I AM afraid of watching someone I've been married to for 15 years, dated for 4, and was very close friends with for 4 years before that - crash and burn. I WANT to help her.

Its also hard, trying to compare 14+4+4 years of a solid relationship with 1 year of absolute [censored]. I keep thinking the "her" that I've known since high school will come back soon - and I spot the old her every now and then.

This isn't easy. And although I appreciate the direct advice, I sometimes wonder if people don't forget how it felt when they were knee deep in it.

So you are saying you ARE supporting her with her A's? There is NO excuse to help her financially right now when she is doing this to you, after the D yes, by all means I know there is some things you would have to help pay, but right now? While she is hiding all of her A's? I don't think so, my husband changed both accounts and didn't put my name on them, he told me that he is not supporting me while I am in the A, and I TOTALLY AGREE!!

Who cares if she is your wife, she is not the same person you married, right now you are just meeting all of her EN's so she can have both of the worlds to live a single life with a husband to support her with her $$$.

Let me ask you a question...

When you are supporting your WW with all the finaces, is it making her understand what she is losing?

Is she crawling back to you with arms open?

Is she giving you all of her passwords?

If all of those questions is a big fat NO, then do yourself a favor and CUT ALL finances, and have her live with what she has!

So - even though we have traditionally shared our money, I should cut her off from both my income (makes sense) AND "our" liquid savings / cash?

A few months ago I moved a "substantial" sum of money out of our joint account into an account of my own. This temporarily shook her up, but she still has the same access I have to the majority of our funds. I have considered moving a bit more money into "my" account, and changing my check to be deposited to "my" account.

But...

Theoretically, the money in the joint account is OURS. She could do the same thing to me that you are suggesting - and if she did I would immediately contact an attorney and off to divorceland we'd go. What's to stop her from doing the same?

For ME to feel reasonable about this, I have trouble justifying taking money away from her that she could argue is just as much hers as it is mine. Money that - if this were a divorce - that I would expect a judge to tell us to split evenly.

OK so SHE puts money in this account??

If she doesn't ADD to this account! Then you need to put EVERYTHING in YOUR account.

If she does add money to this account, then take only YOUR money and put it in YOUR account. Only leaving HER money! Then take your name off this "joint account" So it is only her's to worry about, not yours.

If you are worried then leave her some money in the joint account, and say I left you some money that I think is only fare, then TAKE YOUR NAME OFF that account, and let her know you wont be ADDING to the joint account to help her support her A's.

Tell her that, that account is her's now, and you took your name off.

Yes - my wife does and has for years - put money into this joint account. Even during years that she was a stay at home mom and wasn't contributing financially, she was still contributing to the marriage.

This was our ONLY account for 14.5 years of marriage until I recently opened my own account - which I'm currently only using to hold the "decent" sum of money that I transferred several months ago.

Sapphire - have you ever had a joint account? How do you know what belongs to who when - during the good years - you never felt the need to keep things separate?

Yes we had a joint account, and as soon as my husband found about about the A he opened up another account, and put EVERYTHING in the new account. Right now we do not have a joint account, because it has only been 5 months since our recovery, I am in now hurry to get back on his account since I have my own business and have a separate account for me. We are doing GREAT financially, and it has been awesome!

Since you were both adding to this account I would only take 40% of everything, let her know that you left most of it to her, to be fair.

Otherwise, get your name out and do NOT add anything to that account.

If you have bills taking money in that account, switch them NOW! Make sure you are not paying anything for her A, my husband did that, he made sure that nothing was taking out of that account bill wise.

Let her know, you took all the bills that you will be paying for such as mortgage, your phone bill, etc, that you are no longer paying for HER bills, and you switched it to your account.

I dont know if this helps, all I know is that my husband was not going to support me and my A while we were still married.

Well, if you are OK with her spending your money on OTHER MEN...hold onto being 'reasonable'.

The thing is...if she had a gambling addiction would you protect the family finances? If she were buying drugs...would you protect the family finances?

You have an OBLIGATION to protect the family finances from the clutches of an addict. If she is using family money to fund her escapades you need to protect FAMILY money.

There are horror stories on this site about how WS went through tens of thousands of dollars funding their activities. It pushed families into bankruptcy...foreclosures..and homelessness.

So what if she gets mad...so what..

Man up ..and do the right thing.

committed

Sapphire - gotcha - thanks.

Sorry if I sounded a bit snippy before - I know you are just trying to help and I really do appreciate it.

There are times when I probably need a swift kick in the [censored].

But there are also times when I just wish I had someone's ear and to know that I'm not the only person dealing with this.

You are not alone! Trust me on that!

Have you decided on what your going to do about financing her A's?

What is your next plan?

Will you take your name off that account? And move all of your "Family" bills to your account?

The next thing I need to do is get control of the bills.

One of the few things that she does for "our marriage" is that she is in charge of paying the bills.

I need begin changing e-mail and billing information on accounts that are specific to me, the house and the children.

When I set up my own account months ago I proposed doing this, but never followed through. She became very emotional about it because its just about the only thing she does for "us" on a consistent basis. If I get that reaction again, then it will only be a nice side effect.

I would like to give her a list of what I need or require before she can move back home. This list will document and reinforce my request to her for openness and transparency.

Then, if I'm still not getting the right response, I will move additional dollards into "my" account, but leave about half of our shared funds in the joint account. I will change where I am depositing my check, and change the password on "our" e-mail account so that I'm the only one with access to billing information and start taking things over.

GOOD PLAN!



If she does this again, tell her you are protecting the family, and if she doesn't like it, then she can either meet your terms of transparency and move back in, if not then she has NO SAY on what you are going to do.

Transfer ALL bills TODAY! Don't wait, and do not tell her when you are doing it, or actually don't even tell her you ARE doing it!

One more thing my husband suggested....

It takes about a month to cycle through the bills, so like I said in the other post...DO IT NOW! DO not wait, it will take that long to get everything in order, where all the bills are coming out of YOUR account.

I completely understand how you feel in every way. I also understand the fear. Technically, yes, she has rights to the joint accounts. But you have to understand that by moving the funds, you�re taking a stand against an addiction. She is addicted to flirting with men online.

She is doing all the same junk my ex did to me. Have you been told that nothing is going on? Have you been told that you could look all you want but that you wouldn�t find anything?

Well, it was all lies. I found out by using a keylogger. There was nothing innocent about what was happening.

My greatest regret looking back is that I didn�t take more steps to defend the institution of marriage because of fear of angering her. But it is an issue of pride.

The first thing I should have done was put a password on all the computers so that only I could access them.

The finances should have been protected. Why? Because you want to save the marriage and obviously would share the resources if she returns. She, however, is wayward and not responsible and likely to clean you out to support herself and her addiction to other men. I was cleaned out by my ex when I maintained a joint account because I never thought she�d do such a thing. Well, she did.

The difference between the two of you in terms of money is that she would take it and run while you would take it to protect it and to cut off her ability to fund her addiction.

You put the burden on her to carry on her own crazy lifestyle. She wants internet access? Then she needs to pay for her own provider, cell phone, housing, etc. You, as a responsible husband with some degree of pride, will not willingly fund such things. You�re also giving her a taste of what she needs to do for herself when she�s single. She wants to act single, then have at it. Let her do it.

Cutting off her funds has a lot more to do with ending the cake eating, establishing boundaries, and ending the affairs. In other words, you�re calling her bluff. She wants the best of both worlds. Taking this step lets her know you�re dead serious about ending the affair. It establishes boundaries.

She will answer that you�re just trying to control her. You can simply respond that you�re doing what you need to do to save the marriage. If she wishes to act single, then you have no obligation to support her and she can support herself.

All of this calls her bluff and she either comes back to the marriage or lawyers up and you move forward. But it ends the fence sitting.

I completely understand how you feel in every way. I also understand the fear. Technically, yes, she has rights to the joint accounts. But you have to understand that by moving the funds, you�re taking a stand against an addiction. She is addicted to flirting with men online.

She is doing all the same junk my ex did to me. Have you been told that nothing is going on? Have you been told that you could look all you want but that you wouldn�t find anything?

Well, it was all lies. I found out by using a keylogger. There was nothing innocent about what was happening.

My greatest regret looking back is that I didn�t take more steps to defend the institution of marriage because of fear of angering her. But it is an issue of pride.

The first thing I should have done was put a password on all the computers so that only I could access them.

The finances should have been protected. Why? Because you want to save the marriage and obviously would share the resources if she returns. She, however, is wayward and not responsible and likely to clean you out to support herself and her addiction to other men. I was cleaned out by my ex when I maintained a joint account because I never thought she�d do such a thing. Well, she did.

The difference between the two of you in terms of money is that she would take it and run while you would take it to protect it and to cut off her ability to fund her addiction.

You put the burden on her to carry on her own crazy lifestyle. She wants internet access? Then she needs to pay for her own provider, cell phone, housing, etc. You, as a responsible husband with some degree of pride, will not willingly fund such things. You�re also giving her a taste of what she needs to do for herself when she�s single. She wants to act single, then have at it. Let her do it.

Cutting off her funds has a lot more to do with ending the cake eating, establishing boundaries, and ending the affairs. In other words, you�re calling her bluff. She wants the best of both worlds. Taking this step lets her know you�re dead serious about ending the affair. It establishes boundaries.

She will answer that you�re just trying to control her. You can simply respond that you�re doing what you need to do to save the marriage. If she wishes to act single, then you have no obligation to support her and she can support herself.

All of this calls her bluff and she either comes back to the marriage or lawyers up and you move forward. But it ends the fence sitting.

Lostdads - I'm very interested in what you found your wife was actually doing.

I struggle sometimes believing that this "normal" affair stuff applies to my situation. But the more I read, the more I think although my situation may be a bit different, the solution is the same.

Do you think she ever did anything physical, or was it all internet activity? Do you think she actually had an addiction that could have been treated?

If you don't feel comfortable answering here, can you PM me or something?

Thanks.

niceguy, with all due respect, there is nothing "reasonable" about enabling the destructive, adulterous lifestyle of your wife. You are the "loving" spouse who buys heroin for the heroin addict or drives the alcoholic to the bar. There is nothing reasonable about enabling destructive behavior.

Your instincts about this whole debacle have been about the worst I have seen in my 9 years on this forum. You seem to not be willing to do ANYTHING - ANYTHING - to save your marriage. For you to set up an apartment for your cheating wife and enable her in such a bizarre way makes me seriously wonder if you really do want to save your marriage.

I am not saying this to be mean, but from an objective outside observer, it is shocking to see a spouse enable his spouse to this degree.

Sorry to disappoint you Melody. Guess maybe God didn't create us all equal after all!!!

With all due respect, you don't know me and I don't know you.

With all due respect, to think that there is a cookie cutter pattern - one-size-fits-all way to fix EVERY marriage seems a bit simple minded to me. Sometimes I wish I was living in a simple black and white world, but mine seems to have many shades of grey and all kinds of other colors. Very few things in my world are "either / or".

As for enabling - I'm not arguing. Do you have any weaknesses? If not, why did your DH stray? When your weaknesses are challenged do you simply "Man-up" and "grow a pair?" Is your life really that easy, or are you that just damn good? And if you ARE that damn good, maybe your lessons will be too advanced for a simple man like me.

Fifteen years of marriage earns me some kind of credit. You seem to have formed a very strong opinion about my 38 year old life by the 1,000+ words I've typed here so far. That's fine. If 50 people read my posts, there will be 50 different opinions on how I'm handling things.

And, at the end of the day, I know that the most important opinion of all is my own.

And also, not to be mean, but I don't really see anything constructive or helpful in you last post. People come here for help, right? If I was Mr. Perfect, I wouldn't be here, right? People come here feeling beat up - and THAT'S your pep talk?

Mel is getting tired of seeing the same pattern over and over with BHs, methinks.

Heck, with BSs in general.

Then maybe Mel - who seems to be completely recovered - needs another hobby.

I just hope she doesn't volunteer for a suicide hotline...

Niceguy, my marriage has recovered. Yours is not. I saved my marriage using the tactics recommended around here. My best thinking screwed up my marriage just as yours has screwed up yours.

You say that your "opinion" is important but it has sure not helped your marriage.

Your wife is currently living an adulterous lifestyle AT YOUR EXPENSE. The opinion that contributed to THAT is not an opinion I would value. And neither should you.

If that is the result of your best thinking, then how can you not question your tactics?

Surely you have to recognize that your best thinking is leading you absolutely nowhere. Folks want to help you here, but if you can't be honest about your ineffective tactics at the direction of people who have saved their marriages - PEOPLE WHO WANT TO HELP YOU - then you are not going to make it, my friend.

You are shooting at the rescue helicopters.

OK, I hope this doesn't offend anyone, but my husband actually bought two books to help him "man up" if you wanna call it...the books are called.....

"No more Mr.s Nice guy"

and

"Hold onto your nuts"

I laughed so hard when I found them...after he exposed that is...I wasn't laughing!! HAHAHAHAA!!

And, the kicker is that Sapphire's husband SAVED HIS MARRIAGE by doing that very thing. Her husband "manned up" and "grew a pair."

The result? SAVED MARRIAGE!

So you can listen to folks who have saved their marriages or you can continue to take your own advice. As Dr Phil would say: "how's that working for ya, pardner?"

p.s. we are on your side; you are shooting at people who really want to rescue you.

While ever A is a little different the are all REMARKABLY the same. The treatment is almost identical for everyone.

Recovery is a very narrow path. If you stray in ths slightest usually there is a pitfall waiting for you.

Id check the Q&A columns for your answers. They will tell you the same thing that you see here though.

Make and appointment with the coaching center. They are professionals and WILL help your M. Its the same advice though most the time.

Please read BTinTroubles thread. He swore up and down for a month that it was JUST an EA. Then he found evidence on his VAR. He went CRAZY on her with the exposure and the A ended after that weekend. Its early but they at least have a chance at recovery.

For what its worth I dont think your similiar is too different from alot of peoples here.

FB is allowing her to connect with people. Now she is branching out into the single life with her friends on your dime.

Just be aware that what you have going is NOT working. You need to sit down and figure out what you want. This is your goal. Then devise a plan and follow it. We can help you do that but its a tough path. If things continue like they are where do you think you are going to be in 6 months?

Melody,

With all due respect...

I have made progress. Maybe I've been taking the long way, but on an average day I feel better about my life than I did on an average day one year ago.

The progress I've made is mostly internal. A year ago my focus was to SAVE MY MARRIAGE and I made most of the classic mistakes. I begged, I pleaded, tried logic and reason.

I've learned my lessons in regards to THOSE mistakes. I no longer come across as desparate and I can tell that has my wife spooked.

My goal is no longer to SAVE MY MARRIAGE, but to BE HAPPY. I hope that happiness includes a woman I fell in love with almost 20 years ago. I literally chased her all throughout High School. I played the Best Friend role like a champ for 4 years, knowing I'd one day get my shot - and I was right! Then somehow, after 14 good years of marriage, the bottom fell out. I was sucker punched and it took a long time to catch my breath.

I will gladly admit that I have a problem with being too "nice" - hell, its in my screen name. I'm not trying to hide it.

Lets say that my biggest problem is that I am in fact enabling the situation. That I find it difficult to be hard on someone who I love dearly and I know is terribly unhappy, in spite of her blessings. How do I fix ME?

Maybe I'm not on the right board. Maybe I'm not ready to be here yet. But Karma mentioned you being tired of common themes - which kind of tells me I'm not alone - that I'm not the ONLY one struggling with this.

So - if anyone has any advice other than JUST DO IT - I'd love to hear it. If anyone has any words of encouragement, love to hear it. Or, if you can suggest a different board for "beginners", let me know.

Thanks.

So ML must have said something that really hit a nerve. If you only knew how MUCH ML helps people around here you would be embarrassed at going off on her, of all people.

Anyway, nothing she said in her post is you is incorrect. You would see it if you weren't blinded by what we call around here, "the BS fog". Dr. H's methods are the BEST PROVEN method around but there are very NARROW steps to take and a SMALL window of opportunity to get this right.

In fact, your screenname says a bunch about you. That's not a criticism but an observation. Where has being a "Nice Guy" gotten you so far in this mess?

It would behoove you to listen and learn before you get your panties in a wad. K?

Actually, if 50 Marriage Builders members read your posts, 47 or 48 will agree on the consensus about what to do if you want to have the best possible chance, and only 1 or 2 will dissent.

MelodyLane is the best we have to offer; she knows this program inside and out. I don't understand why you are attacking her.

But if you don't like her, you could call Dr. Willard Harley directly and get his opinion on Marriage Builders radio. Email jharley@marriagebuilders.com for details. Dr. Harley has decades of experience helping marriages, specializing in infidelity.

It will be hard niceguy, it's not easy to see your WW unhappy, but guess what? The GOOD NEWS is, YOU DIDN'T make her unhappy, SHE DID! Nothing you did was your fault for her own misery, no, she did that on her own, so let HER PAY for her own unhappiness.

The only thing you can do to "FIX" you is to read self help books, and take it to your day to day duties, you can't control what your WW is doing, but you can control you!

Melody is working on giving you the answer to that question, if you'll listen.

Marriage Builders Plan A+B will:
* fix you
* save your marriage, if it is saveable
* get you out of your marriage, with your self-respect, if it is not, with absolute assurance that you did everything you could do

niceguy, can I convince you to get ahold of the book Surviving an Affair and read it?

So you don't want to hear the only words that might save your marriage? As I said in my post that infuriated you, I don't believe you really want to save your marriage. Your actions indicate that loud and clear.

You confirmed this when you said:
I accept that some people who come here really don't want help but rather want to strive to protect the status quo. That is their prerogative. I can't help those people so I will move onto someone who really does want help.

Take care...

There is a LOT more he could do according to the MB plans but he has to be willing to follow them.

Being compared to someone buying heroin and driving my wife to the bars touched a nerve, yes.

Being told that my instincts are the worst that have been seen in 9 years - seems a bit harsh.

Saying I don't seem willing to do ANYTHING (her caps, not mine) - after having dealt with this for a year - is hard to read.

Just like words like "we're just friends" and "you need to trust me" are red flags, so are words like "with all due respect."

I know that I am receiving constructive advice overall - I just don't see it in the post from Mel as quoted below.

Take what you need and leave the rest! Better yet, you can just put me on ignore. It won't hurt my feelings.

Mr. nice guy you will choose to ignore Melody at your own peril. As everyone has told you this is a narrow path. It works, heck look at my sig line and my FWH and I are well on our way to recovering. Do you think that was easy for me? Do you think any of us want to do the things we have to do? You are fighting a war for your marriage and giving your wife all the ammo. This program works but you have to do it. If you don't like what someone is saying it is often a big clue that you should pay attention to it. None of this is fun, none of us want anything but the best for you and your M. To ignore one of the most helpful, knowledgeable people on this forum would be a very big mistake. Weigh her words carefully and store them away because if you continue like you are your W is not going to come home, why would she? She has you on a string making it possible for her to have all the loving admiration a person could use from other men. You will end up right back in this place you are in now wondering why it did not work and Melody and everyone else will have to repeat it all over. Do it now and get it over with and you will be back to a better life soon.

Your wife is an alien now with a mind you can't understand. She is into something she can't get out of without help. Help her and you help yourself and then your M.

Melody � no intention to ignore you, but I�m still struggling to see where the post that riled me up was very constructive. You really did hit a nerve � a lot of nerves - and I apologize if my response was over the top.

I realize what I�m doing isn�t working. That�s why I�m here.

Yes � my screen name does give me away.

Books � recently finished Way of the Superior Man (a Man-up book). Halfway through Surviving the Affair. Hard to get past the 1st half as so much seems to apply � keep re-reading about the secret second life. Have started No More Mr. Nice Guy � read the intro last night, but probably need to get through �Surviving� first.

The only thing I believe about my wife right now is that she is terribly unhappy. EA? PA? Sexting? All totally possible.

Panties were in a wad when I got here.

I do feel I have improved myself after probably 9 months � maybe longer � of chasing my tail and being completely reactive. Fell into a lot of the typical traps � struggled initially with the EA concept (is it really cheating? Could they really be friends?).

Hello � my name is Niceguy and I�m an Enabler.

�Just do it� � I can wiggle my ears � most people can�t. When people ask how I do it, all I can really say is �I just can�� Try explaining how you move your arm to someone � same idea. No matter how many times I tell someone �I just do it�, I�ll likely never teach anyone the fine art of ear wiggling. �Just do it� is a great slogan, but not always real practical advice. Maybe I'm wrong...

I�m trying to be as open and honest as I can here and admit that I am struggling. I could easily pretend that I�m following all of your advice, but that really wouldn�t get me anywhere.

Also being totally honest when I say that I�m not sure I want to save my marriage, but I also don't want to look back later and feel like I didnt' try hard enough. Reading �Surviving� I feel like the guy whose account is on empty and I�m creeping into �dislike.� I think my wife has a very large hole in her heart that I can�t fill unless she commits to doing some work on herself as well. As I think I said before, its not just me that she�s pushing away. She�s no longer an involved parent, she�s pushed away her family and most of her old friends. If it was only me that she was �replacing�, I would be a bit more panicked.

Thanks all.

So whats your plan now? If you put down what you are going to do we can offer improvements to help you attempt to recover your Wife.

Tried to cover that above � but I�m sure its gotten lost.

Wife is in an apartment, claims she wants to come home, but I think she�s just unhappy no matter where she is.

Told her in therapy last Thursday that I need transparency � access to all account info and for her to come clean about EVERYTHING with no more suprises. I did not give this as an ultimatum.

She stayed at our house most of the weekend and left the laptop at her apartment. I�m guess she thinks if she just keeps it out of sight I will back down. I get a bit confused here with Plan A and how hard to push.

I need to start changing billing account info as my wife pays all of our bills. Then I can begin taking financial support away.

I feel like I need to give her an �official list� of what needs to happen before she moves home from the apartment � I�m still trying to figure it out myself.

But at a minimum:
1) Change �her� FB page to be �our� FB page (Niceguy & Nicegirls) � if she wants to keep FB;
2) Give me access to all email and other communication accounts
3) Commitment to Policy of Joint Agreement and Radical Honesty
4) Tell me EVERYTHING so there are no surprises � no new phone numbers or secret email accounts to discover;
5) She needs to move home full time to see if we can get along full time before we ditch the apartment
6) No going out unless its with me
7) Full access to laptop and iPhone.
8) Start taking personal accountability for her health, her family commitment and create some kind of plan for her future

Then Plan B by August 31st if no real changes.

Look, I was a WW in my first marriage- which we didn't recover. I have however spent alot of my time reading this site and others about how to make my marriage last time time.

Melody Lane has been here a long time- and she's helped tons of people. She's not going to blow smoke up your bum- she's here to help you see the truth. She wants to help you recover your marriage. If you stay here on MB very long you will see that everyone thinks their sitch is special but when it comes down to it every cheater says and does mostly the same things. Remember that this is not a HOBBY being here on MB- it's a calling. Most of us work outside the home and could frankly be doing something else but we come here to help people.

If your wife is in the same city as any of the guys she flirts with on line- then I definitely believe it's been a PA. Men don't hang around and chat for a long time usually unless they are sleeping with them. You need to go about getting details- PI or whatever.

And I agree you should cut her off financially as much as you can. She is not your dear wife- she is WW.

Maybe...just maybe you need to partake of the food elsewhere.

You have voluntarily come into an oyster bar (joined MB)...asked for the oysters (posted on the forum)...people are handing you oysters (posting to you)...and you are screaming that you want HAMBURGERS (up and uglying on Mel)!

That makes no sense whatsoever to me.

committed

I completely understand how you feel when it comes to the idea that people on this forum don�t know you or your wife. Life is certainly full of shades of gray, but I can tell you in full confidence that the techniques and advice given on this forum are spot on. They apply to all situations of infidelity. The reason they do is because the outcome is always in question, but the path to get to the outcome isn�t. Plan A gives the cheating spouse good memories of you before you go to Plan B. That could very well mean memories of you with pride and standing up for yourself. That is certainly a better memory than one of you being weepy and whiny (not that you have been).

Plan B cuts off the cheating spouse from all of your affection and breaks the cycle of destruction for the BS. You are given a chance to heal, catch your breath, look at things more objectively, and get a better idea of where you as the BS want to take things. Many newcomers think that Plan B is intended to punish the cheating spouse. It is really there for the betrayed spouse. It will set up a recovery of the marriage or help transition you to divorce.

There�s non-MB plans as well. Plan D is often referred to Plan FU. Plan FU is a BS who doesn�t have the shock that many BS�s suffer from. They have a little more control of their emotions and have reached the end of their rope. This is often followed by the WS getting kicked to the curb with lawyers thrown on them for good measure.

These plans apply to your situation.

Why do you remind me so much of me? Because I too had a wife on the internet who was flirting with men online. She�d say it was all innocent and for fun and that I was making too much of it. She would get furious at me for looking at the comments others would post to her and for the fact that I didn�t buy her claims that it was innocent.

So what did I find? I finally got fed up with the lies. I put a keylogger on the computer, got her password, and then read her messages. There was nothing innocent about what she was doing. She was flirting in ways that were suggestive and completely inappropriate for a married woman. She was telling men that she was divorcing when she wasn�t. She set up dates with guys and then met with them. One of the dates did get physical. I know because I got the guys number from her messages and I talked to him. He told me everything.

None of it was innocent despite her vehement claims otherwise. She tried to make me feel like a control freak and like the bad guy for insisting that I know the truth.

Odds are really high your wife is , at a minimum, flirting with men online.

Have you tried to guess at her passwords? Any idea what she might use? Pet names? Dates? Nicknames? Kid names?

Sometimes this is enough for someone.

Thx Lostdads. I'm right there with you - that the best case scenario is a lot of inappropriate and unacceptable flirting.

Called her last night to "follow up" on our therapy session. Made things a bit more clear - that she cannot move home until she agrees to being open and transparent. I need e-mail passwords and I would like to have a "shared" Facebook account.

She was really pissed. I'm going to give it a couple of days and see what kind of reaction I get.

I know that people here will tell me I'm moving too slow.

My next step is still to get financial control - make sure I have all account info and passwords. And if for some reason I run into any roadblocks there, I guess it will be attorney time.

BTW, I wanted to tell you that my ex did leave. She strung me along with the idea that we�d recover the marriage and that she only needed some time to �heal� before we could be married again.

It was a very good ruse. I gave her everything and kept little for myself. I let her have custody, money, everything. Afterall, if I made it amicable and easy, then we maximized our chances, right? It�s what she would tell me over and over. I bought it because I wanted to believe it.

I was emotionally drained since I had just come home from a deployment and had that adjustment to deal with on top of everything.

It was all a lie.

But the fact is that her leaving was one of the best things that ever happened to me. My ex is in a constant state of illness. I was basically her nursemaid, cook, and babysitter. I wasn�t much of a husband.

So I�m free of that now. I dreaded the idea, but I�m glad it happened. I had to fight a brutal legal battle to get rights to my kids, but once that was settled I became free emotionally.

I�m now marrying a wonderful woman. She�s a grown up and a true partner. She is an equal in our relationship.

Why do I tell you this? Because a BS who understands that there are tons of women out there, many of which are better matches than the woman they are with, will be a BS who tolerates little wayward behavior. Why? Because no one, man or woman, deserves to be treated the way a BS is treated.

The plans here are to help you get yourself back and get your spouse back. The wayward isn�t your spouse. There is a risk that they could stay this way forever. The plans suggested are intended to end the fence sitting.

Lost - the other question I was asking you is if you thought your wife had a true "addiction." If so, is this different than a typical wayward spouse?

I understand that the way back is the same, but should I be pushing for some sort of psychological evaluation or treatment in addition to the other Plan A / ending the affair actions?

You're not moving too slow. You're at least moving.

It is healthy that you ask questions and express skepticism. It shows you're not a blind follower.

So skepticism is a good quality, but don't let it hinder you.

Melody knows what she's saying. You also have 2 former WW'es here who give you the same advice we're all giving you.

Steel yourself for the reality that everything you've been told is a lie. Try to get her passwords somehow. That will lead to the truth.

Setup a computer at your house for when she comes over. Have a keylogger installed. Find a moment to run out to the store, get a long shower, or something to entice her to log on while you're occupied or out. Odds are she won't be able to resist.

That will give you her password and you can explore for yourself after that.

The key is that you NOT reveal that you know the truth. Play the cards close to your chest.

I LOVE IT!! Why didn't I think of it! Say that you have to get a couple things from the grocery store and you'll be back in 30 min...help is right! WW wont resist it, I know I wouldn't be able to resist it...knowing that I can get on FB for 30 min while husband is gone?? OH YA!!

GREAT IDEA help!

I've considered this - but she has an iPhone, so I don't think she'd use the home PC.

I think I'm going to unplug the router so that she won't be able to use her laptop at the house.

It may or may not work, but it is worth a try.

let me give you my take, here: your wife is behaving like an addict in the sense that she is indulging a destructive weakness at the expense of her family, she can't seem to stop herself, she's rationalizing (w/ the support of her MC) that it's just something she enjoys and that it's not necessarily a bad thing, she's altered her lifestyle to accommodate her new habit...you follow?

if one can be said to be addicted to attention, ok, she's an addict. but let's not pathologize bad behavior. it's not an addiction, it's a VICE.

if we can stay with the addiction analogy with the understanding that it's an ANALOGY, not a legitimate addiction, let me say this:
she's going to need your help to stop.

you've gotten excellent advice from the vets, and it sounds like you're moving in a good direction--i'm glad you've outlined some concrete requirements for transparency, etc. keep us up to date, NG; stay strong and stay nice!

Or you can make sure that the computer is on ready to use, usually the computer is a lot easier to use then an iphone, you can do a lot more.

If you unplug the router will she still be able to use your computer if you all of a sudden have to step out? So she can use your computer?

Niceguy, Niceguy, Niceguy...Oh, oh, oh...Really man? Really?

Everyone here is on your side, but let's look at the situation as it stands and think about some things, okay?

Why in the world would your wife WANT to change her current situation?

She has money to do whatever she pleases!

She can see her children whenever she pleases - at HER convenience - basically they are like grandchildren to her - she can love them and then give 'em back when they start to be a bother of any sort!

When she wants sex you are there to oblige!

She answers to NO ONE! Doesn't feel like cleaning or cooking? No worries! She doesn't have to!

She can go to the bar and party it up with no worrying about dealing with any pesky responsibilities of tomorrow! If she's hungover, so what? She can just sleep all day!

Seriously, she is pretty much living the life of a college student, only she doesn't even have to worry about studying! Why on earth would she want that to end? WHO WOULD?

I'm just waiting for the little guy to show up shouting "De plane, de plane!" She's on FANTASY ISLAND, man!!!

Niceguy, ever heard the saying "If you change nothing, nothing changes"???? It applies here, BIG TIME...

Your wife needs a WAKE-UP CALL - YESTERDAY!!!

You have the power to give it to her - will you please do so? If you won't man-up for yourself, will you please do it for your children? They NEED you to...

Yes, this means cutting off financial support...That is what MUST happen...I understand that you are scared, but courage doesn't just come to you while you sit and wait - COURAGE IS IN THE DOING...You must ACT - it is in the acting that you will find courage...

What would you do if you were not afraid?

Mrs. W

P.S. You won't like me one bit for pointing this out, Niceguy, but it needs to be said~~~> Women don't love men that they don't respect - You are being her PATSY - She does NOT respect you for it AT ALL - Stand up to her and be a MAN - Sure, she will be MAD at you at first, but by gosh, she will start to RESPECT YOU - which is the only way she'll be able to love you again...Stop letting her run all over you - It is NOT attractive!

He is actually working on that right now, he has already mad a new account for him and only him, changing all the passwords to everything, and switching all the bills to HIS account so he can take his name off their "JOINT" account, he is also taking half that money and sticking it into his new one.

The only thing that sucks is by the time all the bills cycle through to his new account it will be at least a month! He is only transferring the bills him and his children NEED, suck as mortgage, his phone bill, etc.

I understand, Sapphire - I have read the thread...I think he should cut it ALL off...NOW...

Half measures will avail him nothing...

I understand that his worry is that his wife will go and file for divorce if he does this - Personally I doubt that - She isn't exactly one who is in to taking any sort of action lately - but so what if she does? First of all, FILING for divorce is NOT the same as getting a divorce, and secondly, something - ANYTHING needs to change at this point...

Mrs. W

In other words, throwing cotton balls at a crocodile is an exercise in futility...

Mrs. W

I missed that.

Niceguy, is that true? Is this the reason you are reluctant to cut off financial support for her lifestyle?

First off - removing the router will not affect the home computer. Given the small amount of effort it would take, I may install the keylogger. However, she is an expert at using her phone and I know she has a Facebook App that she uses all the time. I'm guessing she would still use her iPhone, but I've got nothing to lose with the keylogger.

MrsWondering - I understand your advice. It is hard to hear, but it's also dead on and constructive. The only thing I can say - and I'm sure it won't fly around here - is that regardless of this wonderful situation that you've outlined above, I truly believe my wife is very unhappy. Yes - in many ways she's got it made, but she has no direction or meaning in her life and she's simply trying to fill this hole with "feel good now" stuff that just doesn't last.

It will be hard for me to let her bottom out, even though I'm beginning to believe that this is probably what needs to happen.

Financing her lifestyle:

First of all, I have what might be an irrational fear of lawyers. Never worked with one or needed one - I imagine a lot of expense for little or no real help.

What I'm struggling with is that we have a decent "liquid" savings that we've built together. I am "supplementing" her lifestyle, but wouldn't say that I'm financing it.

Once again, maybe I'm being too "Nice", but if this were a divorce, a judge would say she's entitled to half of what we own. Using this logic (maybe a mistake), I'm trying to figure out how much is truly mine, hers and ours.

My statement was that if she suddenly withdrew any large amounts that I would need to contact an attorney and in all fairness would expect her to do the same.

Long story short - I'm trying to be financially fair to someone I've been married to for 15 years. Not all of that money is mine. And I fear attorney's fees much more than I fear divorce at this point.

That's how I interpreted it, markos - I could be wrong - I believe his reasoning is that what is in the joint acct is half hers anyway - and that a judge would divide it evenly anyway - I say, SO WHAT? Right now, a judge is NOT involved - Personally, I'd figure out a way to make that liquid cash not so liquid - not my area of expertise, but I'm sure that Mr. W could help Niceguy with ideas about that if he'd like - Tax Attorneys are known for having some pretty creative ideas when it comes to finances yanno...

The way I see it is that any money in the joint account is for the benefit of the FAMILY - not for an individual that is doing all that she can to undermine the family...

She wants all the benefits of being married combined with the single life - Nah Uh, Sister - Sorry, life doesn't work that way...

Mrs. W

this is important

...don't leave ONE HALF of the money in the joint account

if you have 2 children...you leave 25%
if you have 3 children...you leave 20%

That's FAMILY money and each person is entitled to their percentage. You aren't SPENDING the money only moving it to protect it from her wayward out of hand spending and entitlement.


Remember...it's YOUR money in the joint account. You COULD legally take/move all of it....ONE HUNDRED PERCENT and so can she. The only reason you take LESS is to avoid a bad impression should you ever have to defend moving the money in a divorce hearing of some sort. If it gets that far...her attorney will attempt to make you look vindictive and shady for ABSCONDING with the money. If you have a clear and logically reasoning that you express calmly along with VERY GOOD ACCOUNTING, you'll be able to defend just about any amount you MOVE/PROTECT (NOT take) within reason.

I think you have two kids....move 75%.

Mr. Wondering

Niceguy, I have no doubt that you are 100% right about your wife not being happy! I completely agree! Happiness comes as a result of DOING GOOD, and clearly that is not what your wife is doing right now - FEELINGS FOLLOW ACTIONS...Not the other way around...She will begin to feel good when she does good, but she needs your help to get the ball rolling...

A crack addict lying on the floor of a crack den isn't happy either, but they will not choose what is right and good for them on their own - they need help with that - they need a LEADER, not an enabler...

Niceguy, I don't know if you are a Christian man or not, but if you are, please know that you are charged with being the LEADER of your household - LEAD MAN, LEAD...Further, as a married couple the two of you are ONE - This is spiritual warfare - Do you think that means that only your wife is under assault? NO, it does not - YOU are too - and the way it's working on you is to paralyze you with fear, rendering you impotent - STAND UP, Good sir - YOU CAN DO THIS...ACT...LEAD...

Be the HERO...

Mrs. W

I'd listen to Mr. W [my husband] regarding the finances - he is an attorney [tax]...

Mrs. W

I actually agree with this! You need to count the kids, you are their support not your wife.

And ANY judge will say the same thing!! Who ever has the kids gets the MOST of the $$ to support their kids.

On second thought...

I'd try to come up with a logical reason for moving/PROTECTING 100% of it.

You say she's going out drinking all the time?

Go to an Alanon meeting...like tonight or tomorrow....Then...the day after the meeting move 95% of the money to YOUR name to PROTECT it from your alcoholic substance abusing wife.

Then...you are leaning on something that IS admissable in divorce and custody hearings.

Remember....you won't have to defend your actions to ANYONE unless and until you are in a divorce proceeding MONTHS down the road. Until then...you (and your families money) won't be financing your wife's life of sin and neglect.

IF AND WHEN your wife ever comes out of the fog...she'll LOVE and RESPECT you for protecting that money FROM her and for standing up for what is right. If you divorce...the division of assets will make whatever money hers that the court ends up ordering (but at least it won't in any way be YOUR money).

Mr. Wondering

p.s. - I know you are new here and processing but she's been out of the house a year already. It's time to make some bold moves. Pussyfooting around hasn't gotten you anywhere and will only become LESS effective as time lingers on. Have you exposed her affairs to everyone???

Phew...Good, I like this better...Niceguy, I am rooting for your family - I want to see this unhealthy situation change QUICKLY...I think the above plan will accomplish that...

I'd also revisit the post by Mel where she talked to you about Plan B - that was a GREAT post!

Mrs. W

Here's that Mel post...

As far as renewing the lease..


I suggest you just say "no"

[after you've moved the cash to your account]

when she says great I'm moving home then...again say "no...not unless you meet my conditions".

Then she's stuck...

No apartment unless she decides SHE wants to renew it without your consent or approval on HER budget and dime...

and

No home unless she's willing to commit to a PLAN of marital recovery. If you get into some kind of negotiations with her I may even go so far as insisting she post 75 posts here on the MB discussion boards and she can move home if and when the fine people here think she's ready to move home. Of course, you'll have to hid your posts, have the mods move them or just take on a new name and act like you are posting for the first time WITH HER telling her story and asking the board to give HER advice and she can pick it up from there unaware that you ever posted.

Mr. Wondering

Mr. Wondering,

I agree with your 75% number. I was thinking along those lines already. Another thing I had thought about doing was depositing more money into college funds for the kids. I've been hesitant to do this because of the economy and my line of work. But I've seen this suggested elsewhere - it makes the money inaccessible to BOTH of us and shows good faith in taking care of the kids on my part should we ever get to court.

My wife is not a heavy drinker. She had been going out 1 or 2 times per week. Over the last 2 weeks she's spent more time and evenings at "home" and - so far as I know - she hasn't been out for about 2.5 weeks.

And just a little more info - I've done some basic number crunching - my wife would need somewhere between $300 and $500 each month to continue living her current lifestyle.

I like Mel's Plan B plan too....as technically, your wife has the LEGAL right to move home anytime she wants regardless of your conditions and/or ultimatums/boundaries.

Mr. W

Yes fund the kids 529 or IRA plans.

Please listen to Mr. W. He's an attorney.

I'm not an attorney, but I fought a brutal legal battle with my ex.

Things don't move quickly in family law. You can't cut someone off financially when they have the right to come home. You are otherwise supporting an unnecessary expense with funds that could otherwise go to your family.

Protecting your kids won't cost you in court.

Understand that you have NO obligation to support her outside of the marital home until a judge orders otherwise.

Stop assuming things about the law. That was a big mistake I made in my case. I feared going to court and contesting things out of fear that women got custody.

Well, they don't, if the man is prepared and a good dad. Courts aim for fair resolutions to dads. Knowing what I know now I would have kicked her to the curb sooner and filed for everything on the grounds of adultery.

I'm grateful she's out of my life. You may be in the same place someday. It sucks to be married to someone who is insecure and constantly unhappy.

its amazing how quick you learn the intricacies of divorces when you are going through them.

And family law isn't a science. It's a dog and pony show played before a judge who has massive decisions to make based on snippets of info.

Some things are solid law. Most aren't, at least in terms of custody. It boils down to impressions.

Being the primary custodian plays hugely in your favor.

If you file, file on grounds of abandonment, since she's out of the house. She left you child to you and left the home.

Doesn't look good.

She'll freak over divorce papers. Odds are it will wake her up more than anything.

But the main point I'm trying to make is that you need to stop assuming things about the law. You really have no idea about it and most assumptions you are making are flawed. So long as you are married, EVERYTHING is community property, including "her" laptop.

You can install anything anywhere.

Trust me, I know since my ex's lawyer freaked out oversome of the stuff I kept from our computer when it was joint property. Didn't look good. He tried to get it thrown out, but couldn't. I had the right to have it.

So grow a pair and stop funding her adultery. Trust me, she's cheating on you with her online buddies. Otherwise she'd have nothing to hide. Have you noticed if she's changed how she dresses? Suddenly exercising and losing weight?

Lostdads - trying to remember what I assumed about the law...I know I mentioned my fear of attorneys - but thats because I don't trust anyone who bills me by the hour. I am assuming that standing my ground and staying in the house with the kids will help. And I hate the idea of it, but if anyone ever asked my 10 year old about her mother, she would not give a good report. What may be the saddest thing of all to me is that I don't think my wife would fight for them.

Weight loss - nope. She bought new underwear - some pretty comfortable looking male style boxers. This is why I "think" that this has primarily been online. Since becoming "disabled", her weight has increased and her confidence and self esteem have gone down. Thus the appeal of cyberspace.

And you are right about the laptop - I think I could probably find a receipt with my name on it from the day "I" went and bought it - it was a present for her during nursing school. The problem would be getting possession of it. I'd bet $500 she has it password protected.

My wife has also been pretty stupid about e-mails and written communication - talking about being hungover after staying out too late; about not being sure if she wants to be married and how hard it is for her to deal with the kids; I remember one day when I knew she was texting one of her EAs, asking her in an e-mail if there had been contact, and she e-mailed back that she hadn't texted anyone lately - and I have a copy of the bill saying otherwise; AT&T has a pretty cool website - very easy to get and manipulate call data - bills are easily downloaded to excel.

Sabotage it. Put glue on the cooling fan. The CPU will burn itself up. Short the board somehow.



How to sabotage a laptop.

Just trash it and dont buy her a new one. Problem solved.



If a guy is willing to drive however far he needs to to get some action he isnt going to stop because she is bigger than he thought. Internet guys taht pray on married women are swine and probably trollish themselves. Otherwise they wouldnt do such a terrible deed.

hmm...I like this idea!!

Just offer her a drink while she is working on the laptop. An oops when handing it to her can work, especially if your house is a big cluttered.