Hi all! I am hoping that ya'll will read my story & give me advice, support, validation, All the information I need!!! I am having a hard time working through this. I am seeing a therapist, but this is just so big & so destructive, I have to make decisions.

My story. I dated him for 14 months before we became engaged. Parents very religious. Nice enough. They were not happy at our engagement. I was not a good enough Catholic girl for their son. I was not as educated, not socially what they thought he needed, didn't come from the same financial background,etc. I was in college at night, working three jobs, a personal trainer/fitness instructor. I went to good schools, private high school. My father didn't save for tomorrow very well, that was the big problem. I had a good head on my shoulders. They hounded him for almost 6 months. I did not know this. He is a very even mannered guy, quiet. He seemed a little withdrawn, but said no, nothing is wrong. He always said that we could grow our faith together, that he would help me there. I was wanting that in my life. We agreed on all the big things, almost everything. I found out and broke up with him, telling him that I was not going to mary into a family that did not like me. I needed family. I wasn't going to make him choose. I didn't speak to him for two weeks to give him a chance to think. He finally talked me into getting back together. Told me all the right things. He chose me. Wanted to marry me. Wanted to spend the rest of his life with me. He told his parents that if they wanted a future with their grandchildren, they wouldneed to accept me ( I later found out that he never did this.) They ended up calling me (So, he must have said something.) Technically,they were right about many things. The thing is, he and I were making our own decisions, they didn't like not having control over him. Come to find out, they were pretty controlling. Black and white. You don't do this b/c it is a sin, cut people out of their lives if they did something they thought was unforgivable. He grew up not able to be himself, feeling judged, criticised, conditional love. They really loved him. They supported everything he did. He just feared conditional love. I have learned that just fearing that, creates holes inside of you.

Anyway, there were a few red flags, critical of how I spent my money (planning a wedding), didn't support me going back to college when we moved b/c of money. I rationalized I would go back to college when we got the wedding paid off. Got married, moved across country. At one month found porn tapes. He blew it off. I thought, "He must have missed me in these three months we have been apart." Marriage not going well. He is very disconnected, not attentive, not loving. I took on a second job at night b/c he was worried about money. At 8 months he told me, "You are an embarassement to me." I asked him what I did, he said, "Nothing, you are just an embarassment to me." That was crushing. This man just didn't seem to love me. Porn, finding porn, disagreements over porn have plagued our whole marriage - almost 17 years. I was understanding. I always promised to help him and love him through it. He was supposed to stop!!! He didn't.

I am very understanding and forgiving. I have a huge heart, which I know is a gift from God. I lost sight of that for a while, but I know it again now. We now have 3 children, boys. he is not a family man. He has no real role in their lives. He plays his poker, watches his games, plays on his phone, does whatever he wants to do. I get criticism if I ask him to help out or do anything with the kids. As time has gone on, I have become more depressed. He treats me badly. He is very verbally and emotionally abusive. Everything is wrong with what I do, what I say, how I do it, how I say it, how I should have done it, how I should not have done it, how he would have done it, etc.. Besides the "I am an embarassment to him statement, he has told me that, "I am a failure as a mother, that I should just go back to work because I have failed as a mother." "If we weren't married, we wouldn't even be friends." "I am socially unacceptable." "No one likes me." "He doesn't have a relationship with his brother and that is my fault." And so much more. Daily criticism. I have never had any issue with his family. Despite my continued attempts, a relationship with his brother has just never begun. His mother and father seemed to love and accept me for who I was. They told me many times that they love me and appreciate my understanding, forgiving nature. He began gambling six years ago and we are in major debt. He began talking to other women on his cell phone. Hiding his phone, etc. Come to find out a woman that he didn't want me to know he was talking to bought him a cell phone (she is married, lives in a different state.) This was over three years ago. I found a phone, he didn't let me see it and told me that he wanted to talk to whoever he wanted to talk to without me giving him a hard time. I didn't know she bought him that phone. I have found his work phone several times, I thought he ended things with her, then I found another phone she bought him last June. He had had it for a while. I told him that we needed to start over. I was taking blame because I had been closed down. I am not saying that I have been an angel in all of this, but I can tell you that I have been more of a reactionary than anything else. Besides, this is my side of the story. I NEVER turned out of the marriage. I never cheated. I have waited for him to choose me, love me, see what he has done and is doing. Anyway, he told me that he wanted our marriage to work. He wasn't turning to me though. I tried to be patient. Months went by, nothing. He told me that he wasn't attracted to me. He didn't delete "her" from his facebook (he still hasn't) he has passwords on his phone and work phone. He is not showing me any remorse for his actions. He is still living what I call his secret second life. He has not been forthcoming about his relationship with her, he has not admitted to anything. He says that he has never had an affair with her. He says that he has not cheated on me. He says that he has never slept wtih her. He told me that he loves me as the mother of his children, but that he does not see me in the role of wife. He just doesn't want that with me. After a few months, I call the other woman. Ended up talking to her husband and found out that she had been at a work conference that he told me that she would not be attending. It was just them representing their company at this special conference. Her husband also told me that he found a love card that my husband had written to her while they were at that conference, and a few other bits of information. In August, she leaves my husband I love you messages. He continues to maintain that he isn't speaking to her.

I forgave him (there is a lot about his critical, judgemental, holier than thou upbringing that you are just going to have to know that really hurt him and caused holes.) He has yet to ever really show remorse, turn to me, delete her from his FB account, disclose anything, explain anything. He does not want a sexual relationship with me. He still maintains that he did not have sex with her. He will only admit what he knows that I know. I forgave him, clean slate, and he just acted like he wanted things to work, but he did not value my forgiveness. He does not love me anymore. I finally approached his parents about this. If anyone could help, they could. He was spiralling and was hoping they would help. They told me "We told you you should have not gotten married." "Now look at what you have done." "This should have been over with a long time ago." After calling "her" husband, I tried his parents again, they said, "We don't believe his addictions are causing your bad marriage, but that your bad marriage is causing his addictions and that when hs is out of this bad marriage with you, he will get better." He is now drinking a lot. I am sorry this is so long, I just want someone to understand what I am going through and maybe you can give me the information and advice I am so needing to hear. I pray that there is someone who will take the time to read this and give me something I need to deal with this.

Have you considered going to AlAnon?
LINK

I have found out where they are. It is just difficult to make the meetings right now. Baseball games, dinner, etc... Just difficult. Thank you for replying.

Is this post just to much to respond to? There are a lot of views, just your response. I hope others reply.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Who is "they"?

A few notes:

1. Stop making excuses for your H. From your comments, he is certainly acting like a wayward, and should be treated as a wayward.

2. Stop handing out your forgiveness for acts you know little about. If you treat it cheaply, the recipient will also place little value on it.

3. Is your H an alcoholic? If so, follow Pepperband's recommendations.

4. Read up about "Exposure", "Plan A" and "Plan B" on this site. Those are likely going to be your next steps.

5. Breathe. Tell yourself that, whatever happens, whether or not your H stops his waywardness, your life *will* be better, whether or not your H continues to remain a part of it. A well-executed Plan A and Plan B will achieve this.

Oh, sorry! I was responding to the previous post about Al-Anon meetings. I have found out where the meetings are. oops.

Where do I find Plan A, Plan B and other topics I have seen mentioned. I searched Plan A and got a bunch of threads. Where do I get the official Plan A?

Has he ever been physically rough with you or your boys?

Plan A and B
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html

alcohol abuse
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8112_abuse-l.html

unconditional love
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8110_ul.html

I know I'm also new, but search this site for "drinking" as well, and follow directions from the vets. They know their stuff-they've lived it.

IIRC, DrH suggests treatment for addicts and alcoholics before this program can work-for them. It doesn't mean you can't begin applying MB yourself in your life now.

And yes yes yes! to Al-Anon. The longer you put anything in front of that recovery or this one, nothing different will happen. You will continue to do the same things, expecting different results. (I say that as a gal who lurked here for a year before taking action with the MB program and asking for guidance in applying here on the forums.) In other words, dinner can wait until after an Al-Anon meeting, and you can be learning the MB program while hanging out with the kids. Just because his family enables his drinking and you buy into it doesn't mean it's the truth, much like his own wayward excuses aren't truth.

I'll go back to lurking now.

Littlebit3:
The Veterans Here will help you most. My note to you is about the "You are not good enough" part from you Wayward Husband's Family....
Don't buy it. Not for a second. I lived a 12 year marriage to my parent's hand picked choice. I was young and I trusted them and they truly just were trying to do the right thing and not hurt me. That marriage ended in 1992. I am here on this board for different reasons (and some same reasons) now. But let me tell you... I walked away from a wonderful loving young woman I met at a Catholic College because I was told she could not marry UP to me by my parents. It was well intentioned or well meaning but it was wrong and they sadly lived to see the results....
Marriages are about character, change, love and so many other things... And I learned... Being good enough has to do with very few things associated with so called family class or upbringing.... There is every bit as much chance of two so called well bred young people marrying and then facing disasterous lives in marriage as two people of different socio-economic upbringings. Your husband and you did not make a mistake marrying each other. Your husband just did not continue to grow up after marriage and you could not possibly influence that. Don't you DARE to think for one second that your in-laws or your husband are right about you. The truth is in the words of your story. You are the one who is too good for your spouse.
BUT... Follow what you will be taught here by the veterans and you have an excellent chance of teaching your old dog (spouse) new tricks that he will be happy to demonstrate.
I will suggest you read Dr. Harley's comments about why unconditional love is not healthy for a marriage.... It will help you stand up for the respect you deserve.
But I am wordy and I am going to lose my point.
You are more than good enough for your husband. TRUST ME when I write this.
Don't you dare ever think you are not a wonderful woman and wonderful wife. Because you are. And I can see it from cyber space. Good luck to you. There is always hope and here is the place to find the tools that "God helps those who help themselves" with.
Prayers for you today. And Tomorrow. And for a while.

Hurting Turkey,
Me BS 56
She WW 50
Hers 18, 22
Mine 22, 28, 30
Ours DS 11
D-Day 1 - April 26 2009
D-Dapy 2 - October 15 2009
Exposed February 22, 2010
Me: Reforming Verbal Abuser
She: still won't divulge OM # 2 despite overwhelming evidence

Pepperband, no, he had never been phyically abusive or rough.
WW26, thank you for the links!!!!
fullthrottle, thank you for coming out of the shadows!!! He will not admit he has a problem, (many problems.) He would rather revise our history and tell me that, "He didn't love me enought to marry me. He doesn't see what we built our relationship on. He doesn't see what we had in common. He doesn't see what we have to build on or in common now. He also said that he doesn't think he will be losing anything should we divorce.

hurtingturkey!!!!!!!!! Your post really hit me right where I needed it. Thank you so much for taking the time to reply. I keep wishing that I were stronger, would have stood up to him. I also with that I hadn't of retreated in self-protection. Maybe if I had loved him wholly through this, he wouldn't have felt rejected by me. I did close down. I don't know what else he expected, but I wish I had been able to handle it better. I wish I had been able to see he was hurting or was coming from a place of fear. Is this making sense? I know that wishing is unrealistic thinking, but I wish it nonetheless.

Look into COSA or SA-Anon, for spouses/partners of sex addicts. This is a special breed of addiction that hurts the very core of a marriage, and may likely be the founding addiciton to all the other addictions yoiur H has.

I agree, stop making excuses for him, and stop believing the stories he is telling you...about being a bad mother, not socially acceptable. If you were to really look at the past you would see just the opposite is true.

He says these things to you so it makes it OK in his mind to treat you the way that he does.

Hey Littlebit? When you call AlAnon, see if any of the meetings near you offer a co-op child care. That and MB will change your life, no matter what he does or does not do. I'd love to see your marriage not just survive but become absolutely wonderful. Do both and trust the wisdom here.

Can anyone tell me why I want disclosure so bad? At least some!!! Is there some material on this site about the importance of disclosure?

Littlebit,

So sorry this is happening to you, but repeated MENTAL abuse is just as bad as physical abuse.

You need to decide if you want to raise kids around this type of man, as this may have also caused THEM mental trauma too.

Sometimes the deepest wounds and traumas are not visible to the naked eye.

I am suffering so much. I don't know what to do. The oldest already treats me like his father does. It is sad. I really don't believe in divorce. It seems that he was never committed or able to commit. The way he has changed our history and just nicely tells me that he doesn't see me in the role of wife is just cutting me apart. He is trying not to be verbally abusive, but he doesn't understand that he is emotionally abusive with his games, with his secrecy, withholding his life from me, rejecting me, deceptiveness then finding a way to make it seem like my fault. I am programmed though to know how he thinks. I already know what he would say in a certain situation. He doesn't have to say it. He is trying not to, but he just isn't putting anything else into the relationship or marriage. If ANYONE knew the importance of picking a spouse wisely and to not marry if he didn't love her, it is my husband!!!! ???????????????

Little I am so sorry your going through this.
What I am really struggling with in your thread is the fact that your H has ALWAYS been a wayward weather he is in an A or not.

Most women come here devastated that their loving husbands have turned into an unrecognisable monster during and for a few months after an affair. In your case it appears that your H has neve been a nice guy or a family man and has had moronic parents who make excuses for him and enable his bad behaviour.

Don't tame this the wrong way but you seam to have been mentally abused for so long that you have lost all your self worth and esteem. I picture you being a confident happy young lady going to college and holding down many jobs to now accepting a man who rejects and abuses mentally daily.

Even if he believes that he no longer has romantic feelings for you he should still respect you as the mother of his children but he can't even manage that.

Don't be so quick in apologising and taking responsibility for failures just because he says you have them.

I understand that you don't believe in divorce but IMHO there is nothing stopping you from taking your dear children and removing yourself from this abusive environment. Divorce isn't the only way you can cut him of for your safety and chance to recover from the many years of torment this man has let you endure.
Take the kids and go as far away from him as you can get, work on yourself and on your personal recovery and on getting some much needed self healing (this is also known as plan B but in your case I would do it for you rather than any affair related sons).

Thank you NB28 for your post. It is very validating. I was a pretty confident, happy, positive, well-liked young lady. I KNEW I could do anything I set out to accomplish. My childhood had some issues. Mother had major stroke put in facility when I was 5, so some issues that developed as a result of that. Not many though. I KNEW I was loved, unconditionally. I had expectations of me, but was allowed to be who I was and express myself. I think that my husband may not have had the ability to be who he was or express himself as he needed.

I don't believe I am a failure. I got really down for a while, but now, I have some strength as I have been battling finding myself and praying for a year. It has helped.

He has been wayward our WHOLE marriage!!! Somehow, he has made it all my fault. When we have any discussions as of late, he is always putting it back on me.

His parents, although they have their shortcomings, are actually very good people. Huge errors in the judgement department though. He has been two people to them since he was young. They didn't see this side either. I had to tell them. They don't want to see it, admit anything they could have done wrong, their perfect little son could do these types of things, etc..

He is unrecognizable from the man that I dated and married. He just does not know how to discuss issues. He can't deliver bad news. Didn't want to hurt me, didn't know how to talk to me when I was upset about something. He just acted as if nothing was wrong. I will talk. He just can't. He is calm, sweet, to everyone else. He is calm here. That hurtful stuff was never said in anger. It was said in calm conversations. Makes me feel crazy!!!

Oh yeah, I live in a state where you can't just pack up and move away. Gotta stay here. He is from here. I am from a different state.

As I am reading through other threads, I am picking up on some lingo and ideas. It is very clear to me that my hubby is not interested in moving to recovery. Just words, no actions. He complains that we don't have anything in common. I ask him, "How could we, we have been growing apart for 17 years?" He doesn't like that, but it is the truth. He has been living a secret second life our whole marriage.

He is also refusing to forgive me for telling other people about his issues. How is it that MB condones it, but he thinks it is so wrong and unacceptable and unforgivable. I haven't told very many people. I just needed to seek help and advice. He rakes me over the coals for telling others.

I notice that there are a lot of views, but most are not responding. I know this is long, but, please respond with your advice, opinion. What is going on with my husband? I hope some veterans also reply to this thread. Thank you all for reading and responding. I am going to re-read them tomorrow.

Hey little,
I'm sorry to tell you but your a very long way from recovery. None of the MB conditions have been met yet. He is having an A, he is wayward and even if you wanted to try to work at your marriage you stand little to no chance of meeting his emotional needs as he is having those met by the woman he is having an A with, never mind the fact that no matter how you dress it he is emotionally abusive to the whole family.

A starting point is always him cutting ALL contact with OW, this means he never sees or speaks to her again, if they work together he has to change jobs, if and when he agrees to this he has to send the OW a no contact letter.

One other thing is that has to own the mistakes he made and put in place extraordinary precautions so that he dies not put the family at risk.

Your part is to stop enabling the A by blaming yourself and let him grow up and take responsibility for his actions ( don't do what his parents are doing).

The purpose of exposing the a to everyone is to brake the fantasy people tend to live in when they are in an affair and bring them back down to earth with a dose of reality from all sides and gaining supporters in your battle to claim back your H. more often than not exposure works a treat and the way your H responded to you exposing his A is VERY typical. The angrier the WS Get the more you know exposure is working. I would say to you expose more, there never is a limit to exposure.

However with all the above said DR H does not recommend working on the marriage if there is abuse going on. He recommends plan B until your spouse is safe enough for you to be able to work with. There is a video on the site about mb principals. I know reading all the info can be hard try having a peek at the video.

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2515783#Post2515783

Here is a link to the video there are a few useful radio clips too on the thread I just linked if u want specific information.

NB28. Thank you so much for responding. I was reading your signature entry and my heart is for you. I hate to know that you are in a similar boat and going through so much pain. They just don't know the damage they are doing by being so selfish and making the choices that take them out of the marriage.

I have been trying to not own any of his stuff, it is just very difficult.

I have finally realized that he doesn't want to put effort into anything. He just wants it to be easy and feel good. He is not interested in repairing our marriage. He doesn't want anything to change though as he would not be able to afford a divorce or to keep gambling. He can have his second life if that is what he wants. I can't will him, do the work, for him to want our marriage any longer. It is easier to revise our history, demonize me. I am broken. I don't have it in me to continue taking his abuse, and all that comes with him. I deserve love, to be loved and accepted for who I am, and he has never been able to give that to me, and he blames me. I know I am not faultless, but I know that I am responding and dealing with issues and choices that are 100 times worse than what he doesn't like about me, most of which IS response, words, sadness to his choices and treatment.

I will watch the video. Thank you for sending me the link.

Hi LB, and welcome to MArriage Builders. The big reason you aren't getting many responses is because your initial post is too long. We only need 3 to 5 short paragraphs to get it and too much information muddies the water. I know for me, I don't have time to read a post that long.

Is your H an alcoholic? Can you summarize your situation into about 3 short paragraphs?

Hey little,
I find myself in the position of not making much progress because at the start of the MB journey I was not willing to do anything for my marriage, I was full of anger and hatred and just didn't get that I needed to work too if I was to get my marriage into a decent shape. Then I stunted progress because I simply could not do a plan b. Depression finances and total lack of friends and family made it so hard to execute a plan b. However there is tons of progress because he is no longer having an A and is not actively hurting or torturing me, we have a marriage just not a good one.

In your case it's the opposite you take most the blame and don't give him enough of his share of it. Plan b is for your sanity and I can't think of anything else that would work ( there is no way I would advise you to plan A him, it's just not right because he takes total advantage of your kind heart).

Have you considered coaching with dr h? Just for you for now not both of you. If finances are tight have you thought about getting on the radio show and asking for advice for your situation from dr h senior directly??

Hi MelodyLane. My H thinks I am crazy when I have told him he is drinking too much. He never used to drink hard liquor. Maybe an occasional drink while out to dinner. Beer once or twice a week on a hot day. Then he started having online poker at our house and serving wiskey and coke. He would only have one when it was poker night. Then poker night became two poker nights. More drinking. Then it started becoming a drink on other nights. Then a drink every night. Then two drinks every night. Sometimes three drinks. Then his drinks became stronger. I measured the amount of whiskey he poured into one drink the next day by putting the equivalent amount of ice and filling that same glass up with water to the line where the whiskey was. It was 3 1/2 of the larger jigger side on a double jigger that has a small sice and a larger side. The addiction specialist I was seeing at the time to understand his addictions and to get therapy from said that was about 2 1/2 drinks. He has 3 of these almost every night. That is a progression. Just like his gambling and his pornography.

I can try to make it shorter for people to read.

Dated, pretty happy. Became engaged at 14 months. His parents didn't think I was good enough. Caused him emotional problems. He became withdrawn, but said nothing was wrong. He is even tempered, mild mannered guy, so thought all was ok. Broke up when found out about parents. He talked me back.

Got married, immediate problems. Started ignoring me. Only time he had interest in me was when he wanted sex. At tjhe one month mark, found porn tapes. He blew it off. I took second job b/c he was worried about money. That is when he did the porn 3-4 times a week while I was working at night. (I didn't know this until the year mark.) He told me at 8 months I was an embarassement to him. When I asked what I had done, he said, "Nothing, you are just an embarassment to me." I was devastated. Porn has plagued our whole marriage - arguments over continuing to find evidence, etc.. He was supposed to stop. He never did.

I am very understanding and forgiving. We now have 3 children, boys. he is not a family man. He has no real role in their lives. He plays his poker, watches his games, plays on his phone, does whatever he wants to do. I get criticism if I ask him to help out, He treats me badly. He is very verbally and emotionally abusive. Everything is wrong with what I do, what I say, how I do it, how I say it, how I should have done it, how I should not have done it, how he would have done it, etc.. Besides the "I am an embarassment to him statement, he has told me that, "I am a failure as a mother, that I should just go back to work because I have failed as a mother." "If we weren't married, we wouldn't even be friends." "I am socially unacceptable." "No one likes me." "He doesn't have a relationship with his brother and that is my fault." And so much more. Daily criticism. I have never had any issue with his family. He began gambling six years ago and we are in major debt.

He began talking to other women on his cell phone. Hiding his phone, etc. Come to find out a woman that he didn't want me to know he was talking to bought him a cell phone (she is married, lives in a different state.) This was over three years ago. I found a phone. I didn't know she bought him that phone. I have found his work phone several times, I thought he ended things with her, then I found another phone she bought him last June.

Told him we needed to start over. I was taking blame because I had been closed down. I am not saying that I have been an angel in all of this and know I have contributed to our problems, but I can tell you that I have been more of a reactionary than anything else. I NEVER turned out of the marriage. I never cheated. I have waited for him to choose me, love me, see what he has done and is doing.

Anyway, he told me that he wanted our marriage to work. He wasn't turning to me though. I tried to be patient. Months went by, nothing. He told me that he wasn't attracted to me. He is still living what I call his secret second life.

He told me that he loves me as the mother of his children, but that he does not see me in the role of wife. He just doesn't want that with me. After a few months, I call the other woman. Ended up talking to her husband and found out that she had been at a work conference that he told me that she would not be attending. It was just them representing their company at this special conference. Her husband also told me that he found a love card that my husband had written to her while they were at that conference, and a few other bits of information. In August, she leaves my husband I love you messages. He says he is not talking to her. He has not been forthcoming about his relationship with her, he has not admitted to anything. He says that he has never had an affair with her. He says that he has not cheated on me. He says that he has never slept wtih her.

I decided to forgive b/c he said he wanted our marriage to work. Still not shown remorse, turned to me, deleted her from his FB, disclosed or explained anything. He does not want a sexual relationship with me. He will only admit what he knows that I know. He never wanted our marriage to work, just words so he wouldn't have to change anything. He is not in it and doesn't want it anymore.

I am new and didn't really know of these possibilities. Finances are tight. Hmmm, get on the radio show? Boy, that would take some preparation.

I am re-posting as several people have told me that my original post was way too long. Please read and respond if you can.

Dated, pretty happy. Became engaged at 14 months. His parents didn't think I was good enough. I didn't know about this. Caused him emotional problems. He became withdrawn, but said nothing was wrong. He is even tempered, mild mannered guy, so thought all was ok. Broke up when found out about parents. He talked me back.

Got married, immediate problems. Started ignoring me. Only time he had interest in me was when he wanted sex. At tjhe one month mark, found porn tapes. He blew it off. I took second job b/c he was worried about money. That is when he did the porn 3-4 times a week while I was working at night. (I didn't know this until the year mark.) He told me at 8 months I was an embarassement to him. When I asked what I had done, he said, "Nothing, you are just an embarassment to me." I was devastated. Porn has plagued our whole marriage - arguments over continuing to find evidence, etc.. He was supposed to stop. He never did. He just developed other addictions, gambling, alcohol, affairs. I am very understanding and forgiving person. He just takes advantage of that.

We now have 3 children, boys. he is not a family man. He has no real role in their lives. He plays his poker, watches his games, plays on his phone, does whatever he wants to do. I get criticism if I ask him to help out, He treats me badly. He is very verbally and emotionally abusive. Everything is wrong with what I do, what I say, how I do it, how I say it, how I should have done it, how I should not have done it, how he would have done it, etc.. Besides the "I am an embarassment to him statement, he has told me that, "I am a failure as a mother, that I should just go back to work because I have failed as a mother." "If we weren't married, we wouldn't even be friends." "I am socially unacceptable." "No one likes me." "He doesn't have a relationship with his brother and that is my fault." And so much more. Daily criticism. I have never had any issue with his family. He began gambling six years ago and we are in major debt.

He began talking to other women on his cell phone. Hiding his phone, etc. Come to find out a woman that he didn't want me to know he was talking to bought him a cell phone (she is married, lives in a different state.) This was over three years ago. I found a phone. I didn't know she bought him that phone. I have found his work phone several times, I thought he ended things with her, then I found another phone she bought him last June.

Told him we needed to start over. I was taking blame because I had been closed down. I am not saying that I have been an angel in all of this and know I have contributed to our problems, but I can tell you that I have been more of a reactionary than anything else. I NEVER turned out of the marriage. I never cheated. I have waited for him to choose me, love me, see what he has done and is doing.

Anyway, he told me that he wanted our marriage to work. He wasn't turning to me though. I tried to be patient. Months went by, nothing. He told me that he wasn't attracted to me. He is still living what I call his secret second life.

He told me that he loves me as the mother of his children, but that he does not see me in the role of wife. He just doesn't want that with me. After a few months, I call the other woman. Ended up talking to her husband and found out that she had been at a work conference that he told me that she would not be attending. It was just them representing their company at this special conference. Her husband also told me that he found a love card that my husband had written to her while they were at that conference, and a few other bits of information. In August, she leaves my husband I love you messages. He says he is not talking to her. He has not been forthcoming about his relationship with her, he has not admitted to anything. He says that he has never had an affair with her. He says that he has not cheated on me. He says that he has never slept wtih her.

I decided to forgive b/c he said he wanted our marriage to work. Still not shown remorse, turned to me, deleted her from his FB, disclosed or explained anything. He does not want a sexual relationship with me. He will only admit what he knows that I know. He never wanted our marriage to work, just words so he wouldn't have to change anything. He is not in it and doesn't want it anymore.

Littlebit, thanks for shortening that up a bit, I guess a little superfluous information is better than alot.

So, your H had an affair, is still lying about it and has swept it all under the rug? Do I have that right? Is that the problem TODAY?

Here is your biggest problem as I see it:
From my perspective, there is nothing here TO forgive and I think that handing out unconditional forgiveness has greatly harmed your marriage. What will turn your marriage is setting CONDITIONS for forgiveness.

Check this out and tell me what you think: Can't We Forgive and Forget?

Here is what has to happen in order to recover your marriage, like Harley states, deviations are a DISASTER:

Well you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink.

HE isn't willing to do a darn thing and you are taking all the time passive/aggressive behaviors and MENTAL ABUSE from this guy.

I am USUALLY 100 percent pro marriage when it's right and healthy, but in your case it seems it's NEVER been ok.

To me, the rational thing to do would to be get away from my daily abuser. But that's me.

All else I'd say to do would be a short plan A followed by a plan B.

Imho, remaining in this environment with him THERE in this environment is simply unhealthy for you and for the kids. He might not need to remain where you and the kids are imho.

Hey Peachy can I please just ask why suggest a Plan A in this scenario? Even if it�s a mini one. This guy is an abuser, you don�t plan A an abuser.

I respect your opinion and was curious as to your point of view.

Mine is that under no circumstances should this man be plan A�d.




This was 8 months into a 17 year marriage, there was no A at this stage and this in my book is total mental abuse.



This is vile behaviour and again its not in a cheating WS context, he was saying these things to Little before he even began the A. I really don�t think this marriage can be recovered without professional counselling (preferably MB).

MelodyLane, I cut out a lot. The rest, I thought, was important to the story. Sorry I didn't make it shorter.

I have asked him many times over the last year to just please disclose all the information about how he got so close to her, why he accepted the first phone, what have they done, etc... He won't answer anything. HE doesn't want to disclose. He says they didn't have an affair. I had the other phone in my hand, had checked it over and KNEW it was from Wisconson, and he still said it was his work phone, which is a Kansas based area code. He will LIE until he knows I know.

He has a million excuses why counseling isn't working. He's a quack, she's a quack, I don't like her style as she does all the talking, etc.. Go anyway!! But, counseling won't work when you are carrying on an affair, hiding a cell phone, and not being honest. I have been told by my therapist, the addiction specialist I saw for a short period and the Gam Anon specialist I spoke to in Kansas City, that this is not a marital counseling issue right now. It is an addiction counseling issue right now.

What will happen if he doesn't make an 180 degree turn, is that he will have more affairs and you will die a death of a thousand cuts. I would give him an opportunity to earn your trust and your forgiveness and if he won't do it, then consider divorce. It is cruel and manipulative to lie to you about his affair. Unconditional love [or forgiveness] leads to abuse and neglect just like this.


The addiction specialist is right, this is hopeless unless he first handles his addiction. Nor will counseling work when you are in an affair.

If I were in your shoes, I would plan on separating until he stops his addiction and commits to recovering your marriage. You have nothing to lose other than a future of abuse and neglect. I would first set him down and let him you are not willing to stay in this marriage unless he takes certain steps. I would write out the conditions and they might look something like this:

1. end your addictions and get help

2. tell the truth about your affairs and pass a polygraph

3. affair proof the marriage by becoming completely transparent - giving you all passwords and accounting for his time

4. commit to a marital recovery program

With an addict you have to be very firm and set very high standards in order to wake them up. They are users and abusers who show no empathy for their spouses. And if your H does not live up to those standards, you will have lost nothing other than an abusive marriage.

Are you even remotely aware of how the dynamic of your own sickness (Al-anon) functions in the family addiction cycle?

I keep waiting to read where you show some insight into your own behavior.
So far, I'm not seeing too much.

Sweetie ..... this will be pretty brutal for you to read .... so wait until you are feeling strong.... OK?




Now, after this ...




(((( HUGs ))))

Pepperband, you are right. I have not discussed too much of my own behavior. I have been focusing on his b/c his are causing me so much pain.

He is not one to talk about what he doesn't like. He just doesn't/can't. Over time, I have gotten some information about things I do that he doesn't like. Some are obvious, these are the ones he has talked about the most.

I have realized that my M.O. is to close down to protect myself. As I look back, I see that I was closing down to his treatment of me. Which really affected our sex life. I think that is one of the biggest issues for him. He was already doing porn though. I just didn't know it, but I felt his withdrawal, along with the hurtful words I just wasn't open. I was too immature to handle it. I didn't know how, and I really handled it all wrong. I just was not always interested. I didn't make the move anymore. I didn't know this until years later, but I know now as I look back and he has told me that I let my fears get the best of me and made him feel unwanted sexually. I had sex with him. It just wasn't the same. As the years went on, it just got worse.

I tried to get him to talk, he wouldn't. We didn't fight a lot. I am the type that when I get angry, I want to discuss it, work through it, and let it go. He isn't. He is calm, I am hotter and willing to go where I need to go to talk about it. He doesn't like it when I get frustrated and raise my voice. I don't always do it, but it happens often enough. I think I get frustrated b/c there is never any fault on his part, never disclosure and it is never ending. But still, I know it is a problem for him b/c he doesn't like it when I raise my voice or get frustrated.

I have become more negative this last few years than he was ever used to. I have thrown issues in his face when he was criticizing me for something. I just didn't understand how he could criticize me when he was doing the things he was doing? I have shown him a lot of anger and resentment. I haven't treated him with the respect I should have maybe. I respect him as a human being, just not his behavior and choices.

I am pretty easy going, until I am not I guess. I always trusted him. If he wanted to go out with his friends for a weekend golfing trip, GO!! I wanted him to enjoy life. I am not the kind of wife that doesn't let her husband live his life. The problems REALLY came when he violated the trust by hiding his phone, and after I found his secret cell phone. I thought the porn was isolated, but he would never cheat on me. Once I couldn't trust him, I started coming apart. He doesn't like ANY conflict, so he couldn't handle my hurts. I got angrier. At some point it came out.

THen I talked to others. HE REALLY CAN'T FORGIVE ME FOR THIS. This is unacceptable to him. I didn't talk to anyone for 15 years. But, I finally did, and he hates me for it.

Let me think about more. I am out the door to a baseball game. I know that I haven't been perfect. My communication style and closing down and not being open for sex all the time are his main complaints.

And now .... the really big one

Hi Little (NH also)

I am relating to you and am finding great insight into what Pep is saying. NH you and I have been back and forth with each other because I can completely feel your marriage and my marriage mirror in so many ways. I am not surprised we are both finding Little's sitch the same.

Little all I can offer you is what I have been doing in Plan B. When the vets say Plan B is to save you; they know what they are talking about.

I am finding great strength in me. Granted I am still having weak moments, but the stronger moments are coming more now. I lost me for so many years of my marriage. I read Dr. H's giver/taker and realized I gave and gave and gave and I fit the outcome to a tee. I tried to completely save my husband from all his errors.

I learned I was using AO's and DJ's to control him. I wanted him to stop his porn, and he wouldn't so I would try to manipulate the situation with threats to get him to stop. My husband and I had different values. I was trying to control him with DJ's because he just couldn't do things ethically. Today he wants to divorce me because he doesn't want to live by my values (honestly, integrity, character, empathy, basically doing what is right). The red flags were there for years.

Today I can finally see what I needed to do with me to fix this. The hardest part about today is knowing he will need to go out on his own away from his four children. For the first time in his life he will need to fix him on his own.

Granted he may divorce me and find another enabler, or he may not. God only knows about his future. I cannot worry about it or can I have it effect my recovery.

I look at my husband and I can let him go today because he needs to heal himself. He is a very broken man, and I am not good for him today. He must reach bottom on his own and seek recovery on his own.

I decided to go into Plan B to find me. I am actually finding me again and it is wonderful. I have lost a tremendous amount of weight, and my confidence is boosted. I can fix my AO and DJ coping skills, and it is wonderful for my children.

I am actually thanking my husband for this tragedy because if all else fails I am becoming a much better mom. I wish an affair hadn't happened, but I am taking the lemons he gave me and our kids and making some sweet tasting lemonade.

Find you today -- it will likely take years before you are healed. Realize you have so much to offer and you still have six eyeballs that need you to be healthy.

God Bless

Tough~

Tough - what a great post. You've come a long way. Wow.

Thanks Andy - Wishing you well also!

Dang Pepper, what's with the smackdown?!?!?!?! I get what you are saying though. This is where I feel clueless and question my intelligence. I did not know that he did not love me. I didn't realize that he didn't respect me. I started questioning things, but, at first I didn't get it. It was subtle. I didn't know exactly what the problem was. I started guessing that he started believing his parents. It got worse as the years went by. I thought he was a good guy, from a good family who just had a big problem. At some point, I knew he was mad at me for closing down sexually, not really showing interest anymore, and I felt guilty for that.

He is really mean to me. I really don't see it as him having to be a bad boy to give me something to fix. I have never wanted to fix him. I have wanted him to realize what he was doing that was hurting our family, our marriage so badly. I didn't get that he couldn't see it until I learned more about abuse and addiction.

I don't want to be married to an abuser anymore. I finally now see that he hasn't been able to change. I guess I was hoping that I could find out some information here that could possible help me/us as a last ditch effort.

I have lost myself, but I don't see my role in life being bad boy fixer. I never have. It is also a role I DO NOT WANT!! I have met with an attorney. Money is an issue, but only unitl I can find a way.

I wish I had known this informaiton years ago,(Plan A, Plan B, etc..) so I could possibly have done this right and saved our marriage.

Hi Tough!! Thank you for such a wonderful post. I have lost myself too. How do you find YOU again? Go to the gym, take a class, etc.. Right now, I am finding it very difficult to think straight, much less fit more in.

I want to find strength in me. I need it!!!! I used to be very strong. Obviously not as strong as I thought I was, but still, nothing got me down. I think this did b/c I stayed in it. I have never been abused before. I have never picked guys I had to fix. That is not my history.

I identify with the AO's. I try not to be judgmental, but I am sure I was at times.

I remember thinking last summer that we obviously have different moral standards and values. Which seemed weird to me because he grew up in this "perfect" family, and was the kind of guy that when the ATM gave him too much money, he turned back around and took it back to the bank.

You said, "Today, I can finally see what I needed to do with me to fix this." What are those things exactly? How did yoiu come to finally "see" them? What are you doing?

Really, my biggest desire right now is to be the best mom I can be and to find me so my children can get the best of me. Fixing my marriage is not my priority right now. I guess I am wishing that I could find a way to get him to see where our marriage really is, his part in it, forgive me for my part in it, but, I no longer hold on to hope that he will understand. If he does, great. We can cross that bridge if that ever happens and see what comes of it. Until then, my focus is shifting.

I originally posted to gain more insight, get the answers I am getting to better understand, to gain some support, and to help me REALLY get who he is and why he is doing what he is doing, and why I act the way I do, do the things I do, and how I can change.

Plan B - getting away from the wayward. Time has allowed me to see him for what he actually was.

I read denial in your posts. The only thing I can offer is you may want to consider Plan B. Read all about it on this website. I don't have a direct link.

Time away from the wayward's mouth is what has helped me. I am slso at the YMCA everyday swimming for one hour. It is my alone time with God, my thoughts, and myself. I can talk to me for one hour straight while swimming. It is my therapy, and I absolutely love it.

I CANNOT believe I missed this one. I wish I had read this one before I read and responded to your next one, which I referred to as a smackdown!! This was too!! After responding to that one and thinking about it, then reading this one, I think I am beginning to understand what you are saying about fixing him. I just didn't see it that way. I thought I was supposed to love him through sickness and in health. I really didn't see it as abuse. I am a nieve and trusting person, and obviously dense.

All these years, I haven't felt virtuous. I have felt more like a failure than anything else. I didn't look at the way I have responded and putting up with it as a sickness, but as something I had to do to try to hold the marriage together.

All that about him being judged, critized and holes is new information for me within the last couple of years because that is what my therapist has taught me. It isn't someting that I had a clue about. I always wondered why he did these things. I now see that whatever his problems and issues are, he didn't/doesn't have the right to treat me the way he has. I now can see it as his issues.

My friend taught me the three C's. Thank you for reminding me. I think of them often. I NOW know that I didn't cause his issues. I may have thought I could help, but now I KNOW I can't cure him. It is the hardest thing to give up.

I never thought of being an admirable woman. I was just doing what I thought I needed to do. I didn't want to give up on our marriage. I now see that he is not capable of being who he pretended to be and promised me he would be (even before we married.) I am not who I know I was meant to be either.

I am MOST CERTAINLY and enabler! DANG!! I hate it!!! I am really getting that this last few months. He has never really had to suffer the consequences of his choices and behaviors.

It is funny that you say I am forgiving him while he is still hurting me. That is exactly what I said to him a few days ago.

I am looking into Al-Anon. That is the only thing here. I am reading a lot too. Looks like I have a lot more to read after coming to MB!!

Thank you for spending your time with me. I really need yours and everyone's help and advice. I need it to break free of my bad habits, mindset and fog.

I will read them and get back to you. Thank you!!

There is a website called VerbalAbuse with a discussion forum similar to this one which helps to explain some of the techniques used to maintain control of the other person.

There is also a book of the same name by Patricia Evans available from Amazon.I found both helpful in explaining the reasons for the incomprehensible behaviour.

GOOD LUCK

myopia2000, thank you for the VerbalAbuse information. I have a lot of reading to do!!!!! Any particular thread that you have in mind on that forum?

{{{{{Littlebit3}}}}}

Just want to say I am reading along and can relate very well to the journey you are on. I don't post alot during the summer since it is extremely busy with work.

Pep has challenged me along my journey to dig deep into myself and question

WTF am I doing.

She carries one of the biggest 2 X 4's I have ever seen swung but uses it for wake up calls. Its done with tough love.

For myself I have needed that along the way.

As you can see I have been here for a few years and have found a combination of useful tools that helped me along the way. Not all of it was MB's so I don't want to muddy up your thread since you are getting great advice so far.

Please consider the suggestion of Al-Anon meetings. Just try 6 meetings at the same group and see if it is a fit. In Real Life we need a support group (or more)around us.

Edited to add:

You see, sometimes Recovery here does not always mean Marital Recovery. Sometimes it is Personal recovery.

Just wanted you to know you are not alone.

nESRE

Littlebit3:
As you can tell from my signature line I have a history of verbal abuse. Maybe not so much as many others but certainly enough to have severely hurt a very gentle wife whom I knew was too gentle (at least at one time) for the wolves. I want to second the suggestion to read Patricia Evans....
It is the bible of reforming verbal abusers... sometimes I think she wrote more for us than for victims. I can share one thing from my reform that you need to know....
I am a member of a group known as MEVAC (you can just google that) it stands for Men Ending Verbal Abuse and Control. We have a survey (available to male members only)...
100% of the Reforming members got there because their wife gave them the wakeup call one way or another - I have to conclude that Patricia Evans is correct in that verbal abusers think backwardly (they actually believe that doing what they do will get them what they want when in reality they get the exact opposite!). So... in short I conclude that - unless and until their wife either files, leaves or similar... they don't even understand that what they are doing is wrong. When you read Patricia Evans she will explain why.
My group MEVAC is somewhat sponsored by Patricia Evans. It should have half a million members and be growing by that much every three months... but there are less than 200 members. BUT.. those who do join - have an excellent chance of changing their behavior.
I simply write about this facet of what you have been going through so that you see that there is a small ray of hope for changes in you spouse.
One more thought... Verbablly Abusive and Controlling men usually learn the backward thinking from controlling parents. You have clearly already witnessed this.
SOOOO... don't you just read Patricia Evans. Make a copy available for your husband and tell him about MEVAC when and if you do lower the boom on the advice of the vets here.
Just remember Littlebit3, you don't deserve this and it is not your fault.
Sadly in my case, the lowering of the boom on me was learning of my wife's affair(s). Very Ironic.
New that I have reformed (and I will always be reforming) from Verbal Abuse and Control...
I find myself trying to further apply what I learned here.
I guess I am writing as much about myself as for you, but maybe there is some insight here that my tragedy can help you with.
Blessings,

Hurting Turkey,
Me BS 56
She WW 50
Hers 18, 22
Mine 22, 28, 30
Ours DS 11
D-Day 1 - April 26 2009
D-Dapy 2 - October 15 2009
Exposed February 22, 2010
Me: Reforming Verbal Abuser
She: still won't divulge OM # 2 despite overwhelming evidence

Hi everyone. It has been a while since I have been on. I have been thinking a lot about what you all have written to me. Is this all the advice you can give me? I keep reading on other threads to do what the vets say. I don't know what to do or how to do it. Are there some vets out there that can spell it out for me? Sorry if I am dense. This is just very difficult.

Thannk you nesre. I need someone to help me dig deep inside myself too to question things, to figure things out, to figure out who I AM and what I want now.

Pepperband gave me a pretty good smackdown a couple of weeks ago, and she was right about almost everything, but then what? It didn't help me figure things out. I think I am just in such denial I can't move.

What are the useful tools you have used?

I do need support. I plan on going to the Al-Anon meetings.

It is now about personal recovery for me. I am just in such a bad place that I don't know what to do. Nothing feels right.

Thank you for being there for me. I don't want to be alone. I need help.

L3

I am in the middle of some things right at the moment.
I will try to get back to you withing the hour
nESRE

I originally posted to gain more insight, get the answers I am getting to better understand, to gain some support, and to help me REALLY get who he is and why he is doing what he is doing, and why I act the way I do, do the things I do, and how I can change.


I read this a couple of pages back and it struck me how far you have come..........you arrived looking to find a way to turn yourself in even more knots to please an abuser......and discovered it's OK not to be abused.

The people on this forum are worth listening to, keep growing hun.

You have to be a strong woman for dealing with this situation for years, you need to carry on being strong now to stop it. So listen to the vets, get or keep healthy, eat well, sleep, exercise, do some nice things for you, journal, vent here but listen.

I wish I had found this site years ago too, but it will give you the toughs to hang on in there.

You are better than this

Make a start by attending an Al-Anon meeting. For almost a year I sat there pretty quiet as these people were talking as if they knew exactly what my life was about.

We cannot get better when we live in a vacuum. The whole world surrounding an addictions life is they are much like a vacuum and some how they keep sucking us back into the sickness. We have to break away from what keeps sucking us in. The repeated sickpatterns. I am not saying desert your job, family, or such. Get out and let TRUSTED people know what the situation is.

When you start doing that other opportunities will start to present themself and you will feel better about a good life you have created. You quit focusing on the sick one and treat yourself better. Should your sick one want help you will be in a better position to help or have resources available you never knew of.

MB's Plan B also helps. During a time of seperation you can use that time to really work on yourself. DO NOT Plan A an active addict who is abusing you. It will only reward their bad behavior. With active addicts tough love and firm boundaries need to be in place.

Keep coming back with questions. This community is a combined effert of many who have been there done that. The main focus is MB's principles. This is a bit off the beaten path.

By seeing both sides of A's (waywards/betrayeds)from people trying to get healthy new ideas will open up to you. Some of those ideas you may try. Many others will tell you their experiences as you share here and you will recognize they have been there done that. Recovered addicts of all types. You will begin to get out of the sucking action of the vacuum.

She asked you this rght away. Don't know we saw an answer. Maybe I missed it.



You are here not your H. Our focus is on what are you going to do to change the cicumstances of YOUR PRESENT LIFE so you can have a better life soon.

Hope this helps

nESRE

First things first, You are NOT alone here!!! Stay active on your thread and Listen To The Vets!!!

Yes, you are in a bad place and nothing feels right. That is because you are under the gas lighting fog babble bullarky. Until you understand those and see how it is playing out in your life, and get away from it, you will not be able to see clearly.

You can NOT save a marriage with an addict. Your WS is an addict, from what I saw, of several things...he is the ONLY one who can fix himself, and he's showing no signs of doing so. If he choses to get clean of many things, then you might have a chance, but not until he is totally clean, drinking, gambling, women, everything.

No one 'believes' in divorce. I know I sure don't but I'm looking at #2 coming soon. I was raised in the Catholic church, and I know the road you will travel with them if you go this route. I left the church long ago, but in my situation? Knowing what I know now? NOTHING would hold me back from getting as far away as I could from the enviornment I was in. That has to be a personal choice you make.

This does NOT stop you from going into a deep dark Plan B. And that is the Plan I believe you are in need of working on now. You have got to get away from his destructive behaviour!

Where to start? Start Here

That is a TON of reading. For now, just start. Especially read up about gas lighting and fog babble, those pages are what finally got the rest of the way thru to me that it was NOT MY FAULT that I was not indeed, crazy. That stuff will bring you out of the BS Fog.

I did not read your full thread yet, the first two pages tore me as I have so been in your shoes. I have become a Survivor, you can too!

What state are you in? Do you know their divorce laws? Separation laws? I am not saying that is where you are heading, but knowledge is power. You are fighting against addictions, and until those are cleaned up, you can't fix your marriage.

Do you have the financial resources to get out? I don't think he will volunarily leave, which would be the best thing.

nERSE has spoken some good words, remember, you are not alone!!!


My Story

From Here

LB3

NSZ gave you good info on Plan B. The plan does requre planning so read all you can about the plan and ask questions.

You have been living this way for a long time.

Dr. H would not even counsel in M's where addictions were present and would require the addict to get treatment and some length of recovery before he would counsel. The reason being whatever the addiction was would be of higher importance than the M.



A one post answer or having this solved by next week is not going to happen. Keep coming back and sort this out. Writing down or journaling as was suggested may help you to really see your goals in black and white. Also it may help to determine what direction you would like to go persnally and with the M.

I myself could not stay with my alcoholic WW any longer. Basically WW had 10 years of sobriety. Started drinking again in 1999 and it has been a cycle of treatment centers and detoxes. Add in the OM on and off the last 5 to 6 years and you have a real mess.

I know of two posters here who remained M'd to alcoholics. Both told me it was a delicate balancing act that requred firm understanding in both MB's and Al-Anon principles. While there H's are actively drinking they can not do it exactly to MB's principles. Its a hard road when you go that direction.

I possibly could have stayed with my alcoholic wife-I won't (and did divorce) my WW wife. Rubbing the A in my face and the continual verbal abuse when drunk was enough for me.

Until the underlying issue of alcoholism is addressed with her seeking and maintaining sobriety I will stay a safe distance for my sanity. Not even friends. No contact. Good Lord knows I tried as hard as I could to help her with staying sober.

Keep coming back.

nESRE

Thank you nesre and No Stress Zone. I REALLY appreciate your thoughtful and thorough responses. I need to let them sink in and re-read them. I need to re-read Pep's advice to me too. I clicked the start here that you posted (the thread for newbies), and I will read that too. I am spcifically interested in the gas lighting fog babble information. If it is not in that link, can you send me more information on it or where I can find it? I really need to read that. I feel crazy. I don't have the words to express how I feel, why I feel that way. It is just total craziness, and somehow it is me that is the crazy one??????!!!!! I know living the life I have been living, dealing with the things I have been dealing with, never having a foothold in my own life, etc... makes one come apart, but he is good at compartmentalizing and making it seem like it is me. I am just in such knots that I have not been able to undo it all. I am better, but nowhere close to where I need to be. I also know that I can't do it alone. I will do my reading and re-reading when he is not home and I can focus. Thank you so much for your help. I feel odd about reaching out to complete strangers, but I KNOW you all have been there and know what I am going through and that is the infomation and strength I am looking for. Thank you for building me up and trying to give me strength. I know I need it!!! I really do. Did I say thank you!!? hehehe I really am grateful. Have a great night everyone!!

I get most of my info searching google, this search on site doesn't like me at all. I just type in what I'm looking for on google with marriage builders at the end so it will pull up info from this site.

If I remember right, one of those links in that first article will link you to the fogbabble threads. Started with a members name, long? something? I want to say it's 3 or 4 links down.

Then again, could be a few posts down before you hit those links.

I could go look, but I'm testing my memory right now. One of my issues with the MS, is my own medical version of brain fog It is MUCH better now than it used to be while under the influence of fogbaggle and gaslighting as well. Thank God.

blah, memory was bad but not a total loss...the fogbabble links are on page 2, 4 posts down, in a post by Scotland. had the 4 in there, just not in right spot I do keep trying!

gaslighting, has tons of info if you google it.

Another very good book re crazy making is STALKING THE SOUL by ANNE MARIE HIRIGOYAN she is a french writer who specializes in victimology.Surprising as it may seem there appears to be no language barrier to this form of behaviour.

Available from Amazon.

GOOD LUCK

Page 2 where? I have no clue where this page 2 is. I will try to put it in the search bar.

MelodyLane, I don't know if you are still reading this thread or not.... I hope you are. I have read and re-read the link you gave me about Why Can't We Just Forgive and Forget. I read them a couple of weeks ago and again today. I understand that I have forgiven him when I shouldn't have, haven't set the bar high enough, etc.. What is it that you are specifically thinking that I need to look at?

Please keep responding to me. I look forward to your advice.

I told my husband this morning that it was time for us to go our separate ways. I told him that since "He doesn't see me in that role" (of wife0, hasn't disclosed any information, isn't actively working on improving the marriage, isn't being transparent, still living a secretive private life from me that he needs to go. I explained what I no longer want in my life and why and that I was ready to let him go, that he is not the one for me. He brought up that money is an issue, how would we afford it, where would he go, etc...? Money is an issue b/c he has gambled all of it away!

GET THIS!!! He told me this morning that he is confident that he can continue not to gamble anymore. (The only reason he isn't is because the US government shut the sites down in the US.) That he has more discipline than anyone he knows and that he is confident that he won't do it anymore. I explained that he can stop all of it, but that unless he gets help for the real reasons he turned to those things in the first place, he would still be in a bad place. I also told him that no matter what he does, he can't make himself love someone that he doesn't love and that this is not the kind of relationship I want. He then kept trying to buffer my asking him to leave with trying to work on things??????? What does that mean? He isn't talking about working on our marriage, so what is he talking about? I know that working on each of our selves, trying to be considerate, etc..., but that would be to make a marriage work. It is over, right?

I also keep forgetting to answer the question on whether he has ever been rough or physically abusive with me or the boys. No, he has never touched us, hit us, anything. He is just verbal.

I am finding information on gaslighting, but not really about fog-babble. I truly believe I have been gaslighted for all of these years. If it the description perfectly! I want to learn to trust myself/trust my instincts again. I know I have good common sense. I am also always open for someone to show me where I could be wrong. I have always been like that. I think that if you attack me with it though, I am not going to respond well. I would then need to calm down. Most of the time, even then, I can find a small silver lining of some truth in the mean words. I used to take that and try to learn from it. Now, I just can't do anything right, so I quit trying so hard.

Little
Gambling aside he is still having an A. IMHO the first step for him is to agree to NC with his OW and commit to the marriage.

once he commits to the marriage you can actively help him find help for his other issues until then I suggest you withdraw the acts of kindness you give him and the support he gets with his life. He's worried about money and finances now that the proverbial s hit the fan what happened to that concern when he was abusing you, the marriage vows and the family s security.

Too little too late he needs to commit to you and his kids 100% or not at all

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2370240&page=2

Second page, fourth post down by Scotland are five links to various fogbabbly posts.

I'm more concerned with something else now that I read your signature line.

Plan A for HOW LONG? Dr. Harley recommends THREE WEEKS for wives.

Your husband has been having cake and eating it for how long?????? Come on girlfriend, get on the stick here.

Read this to understand better

Plan A & B

Carrot and Stick of Plan A

Carrot and Stick of Plan A revisited

Read those links Scotland posts on that thread. Make sure you totally understand this stuff! You know you have been gaslighted, you will see the fogbabble coming out his mouth, move on to FIX THIS.

He, of course, says he is not having an affair. He says he is not talking to her. What makes you say that he is having an affiar?

Also, he said he was committed to making the marriage work. I threw everything into it, but he really didn't. He is acting like now he would like to try to find something to re-connect on. I think this is just a ploy to drag it on. He doesn't want me, doesn't want a sexual relationship with me, doesn't see me in the role, so I don't think that he will commit to the marriage. He has really never been committed all these years. I am just finally realizing it. I am dense.

[quote=No_Stress_ZoneI'm more concerned with something else now that I read your signature line.

Plan A for HOW LONG? Dr. Harley recommends THREE WEEKS for wives.

Your husband has been having cake and eating it for how long?????? Come on girlfriend, get on the stick here.

Read this to understand better

Plan A & B

Carrot and Stick of Plan A

Carrot and Stick of Plan A revisited

Read those links Scotland posts on that thread. Make sure you totally understand this stuff! You know you have been gaslighted, you will see the fogbabble coming out his mouth, move on to FIX THIS. [/quote]

I just found MB, so my Plan A wasn't exactly Plan A, but really close. I was loving, open, giving, understanding, hopeful, he was just interested in someone else at the time. I don't know if he is now b/c he won't admit to anything, but he certainly isn't interested in me.

What makes me think he is still in an A is his wayward behaviour.

One of the key things required when a spouse commits to a marriage is absolute and total transparency. Has he given you Full access to his phone records, pc , laptop etc? If he hasn't there is no other explanation apart from the fact that the A is still active.

He says he is not having an affair, that it is just that he doesn't know exactly what his feelings are. He doesn't feel that love for me that he used to. He is still saying that he probably didn't love me enough to marry me. That he ignored things or excused them that he didn't like before we got married. He thought they wouldn't be a problem. That very well could be true, but he married me. So now what?

He is saying that he doesn't feel like telling me anything. He won't say why he won't disclose any information or delete her from his FB account. He actually thinks he is being transparent. I asked him what could he have done that would make me feel he was being transparent. He said because he is talking to me about things. He just doesn't get it. He doesn't want to tell me anything, so he isn't.

He is NOT being transparent and obviously doesn't want to be!!!!

He asked me last night when we were discussing if we could even try to repair our marriage, "What will I get from it if I committ to this?" I told him that I really don't know how to answer that question. That I could ask him the same question, but that I wouldn't because I thought it completely unfair. My question would be, "How can we help eachother?" I am just disgusted.

littlebit, work on getting set up for Plan B, while you are getting that set up, if you can get into counseling with Steve Harley, you might have a chance, but I think if you can't get your WH on board fully, you are just going to get those thousand knives for many more years or until you can't take anymore. He has his cake, he wants to keep eating it too. Tell him NO. You are worth more than that.

Don't go that route, you are worth far more than that. Let him see what he's missing. Money for child support, the house, you, and as much as you can get out of him.

Make sure those kids KNOW!!! If you don't believe that is necessary, think again, it's VERY necessary! Don't end up in my shoes, fighting against the impossible. Just make sure it is the truth you give them.
Plan B is not the end, it is not giving up! It is there to help and protect YOU!!! No longer than 2 years on this plan. WHen they say No COntact, they mean NO CONTACT. It's the only way you can heal.

Are there some veterans out there that can offer me some more advice? While I have a ton to read, I still need some advice.

No Stress Zone, what kind of counseling with Steve Harley are you referring to, private or as a couple? I don't think my H is really interested in therapy. He is saying that he has been getting help (I don't know when or where.) and that he is happy with who he is now. He says that he is not doing any of those things (porn, gambling, is not an alcoholic, secret cell phones, no other women.) I told him that I have no clue what he is telling me b/c he has not been sharing his achievements or life with me, that I didn't know he was seeking any help. I told him that I was happy that he has been seeking help to oversome his issues. It is good that he is feeling better about who he is. I can see it somewhat. BUT, it is not helping him to want a future with me. He is still in so much denial about his behavior, how it has affected everyone in his life, how it has cut me to pieces, the real damage that it has done, and he is mad at ME for exposing him. "It is just unacceptable. These are private things that you are just not to share with anyone." "I didn't share anything like this about you." Well, I didn't do these things!!!!!! So, he may feel better about who he is, but he isn't getting the help he needs to work on the things he doesn't see, recognize or want to recognize.

I wish him well. I just don't have any hope in a future with him.

LB, if he won't engage in recovery, I would pack his bags and insist he leave. If he won't leave, then you would want to a) move yourself or b) file for divorce and get him out legally.

His anger about exposure just reflects his foggy mind. I seriously doubt he has completely stopped all of his destructive behavior or he wouldn't be so foggy.

The fact is that you can't change him, but you can protect yourself from him. If he is an addict, he cares nothing for anyone except HIMSELF.

How are you doing today?

Hi Pepperband. I am glad to see you. I am sad. I feel the depth of loss of my life that I had hoped to have with my husband. I feel sad that it is over. I am trying to get all the information together that I need to file. It takes a while. I held on to nothing for so long that I don't know how to get it off my mind. I am so co-dependent that I can't seem to break free for me. I have a lot of untangling to do!!

Please continue to offer me advice about how to do all of this and everything that I need to do. I am grateful for everyone's help here.

Co-dependents with an addict spouse live a sort of parasitic existence.
Borrowing life force off others.
When you detach, you think you might die.
In reality, you begin living.

I have been working on my co-dependency. I am in IC and feel that I am making some improvements. I have been doing some reading on co-dependency. I really like the book, Co-Dependent No More. It is a great book. My problem (OK, I have many!!!)is separating myself. finding my inner strength, belief in myself. I feel SOO much better, but old habits die hard. I just wanted my marriage to work. I never thought he didn't love me. I feel like an idiot. Why couldn't I see it?

He acts like everything is ok since he is getting whatever help he is getting and "isn't doing these things anymore." He will not tell me anything about his relationship with her. I have tried to explain how important it is for him to disclose, but he just doesn't. I also can't imagine that he would keep her on his FB account and passwords on his phones. He thinks everything should be just fine since he is being "nicer" to me.

I hate it that my marriage is over, but on the other hand, I am ready for a better life.

LB3,

You have come a long way since your first post! First, you are owning your own stuff, that's great! And you are working on it, that will take time, be patient and kind to yourself.

I take it you work outside the home, correct? Your WH works, maybe you will have to downsize or sell your home, but it is doable! Your WH has led a double life for so long with your going along with it that he doesn't know what to do with your putting your foot down, which is why he says he wants to work on your M. I've seen this too and there is no real effort being made.

I understand about the finances, but see what the attorney can come up with. Seriously consider the Plan B, but only when you yourself are ready to commit to it. It won't work if you are wishy washy.

<<hugs>>

ba

Thank you beginagain. I don't feel like I have come along way. I began working on the co-dependency over a year ago. I just found MB 1 1/2 months ago. I have not made the improvement that I should have, BUT, some improvement is better than none, right?!!!!

I am trying to be patient and kind to myself. I don't really believe all the horrible things he has said that I am, but it is difficult to get it all out of your head.

I do not work outside the home. We already have a small, inexpensive home. We do not live large.

You are right, he has led a double life for so long.... He enjoys his cake!!!

When you say "You have seen this too and there is no reall effot being made" will you expound on that please. I think I need to hear someone say it in some details. Would you mind? There is no real effort being made from any direction in any way really. Well, he is trying to be nicer and not criticize. I do see that effort. Just no effort to repair the relationship, disclose his secret second life or any information about his relationship with her. I don't see remorse or him breaking his back to make up for anything. At least show me something b/c I am a human being. Do the right thing.

Littlebit,

Not to t/j AI's thread. You asked if you've been in Plan C..

Read this and tell us what you think.
BSs... Plan C is not a plan

Listen to the clips at the end that I've posted of Dr. Harley discussing Plan C.

I would suggest going into Plan B. And I would strongly suggest that you cease offering very unwarranted "forgiveness." Forgiveness is not appropriate and only makes the situtation worse.

Did you follow any of the advice you recieved in your last thread? If you want answers, you might want to read it again. You were told there to go to Plan B and that advice has not changed.

Exactly.

I was wondering the same.

Littlebit why haven't you?

To answer all of your questions...There are sooooo many reasons why I didn't pull the trigger and implement plan B. Fear would be probably the main reason.
1. Fear about supporting my children with a gambling addict.
2. Fear about breaking the marital covenant. ( I know H already did, but I am just so against it.
3. Fear about tearing the children's world apart. I now believe it is the best thing, but it stil going to be hard to do it.

Money is the largest reason. I have contacted an attorney and am going to get it all ready. At this point, I no longer want to remain in this marriage. It has really never been one. I have been holding on to nothing, waiting for someone to accept, love and value me, us, our marriage who is not capable of doing so.

I know I have dragged my feet, waited too long, suffered unnecessarily, but I just had to wait until MY gut said time. It is now time.

I also would love for you to PLEASE keep giving me advice and helping me build strength. I am going to go back and re-read my other thread and start following the advice. I no longer have hope. That was tripping me up too!

Do you work?

So you're preparing for Plan B, correct?

I would concentrate on this and stay focused on this.

What steps do you need help with?

You have all the links. Have you found an IM? Started your letter?

Strength is a choice. No one is born with it. Everyone has fear. You have the choice to allow it to cripple you or make a decision to change. There is nothing anyone can say to you to make you CHOOSE to be strong. That is a decision you can make right now.

You don't have the luxury to cater to all your fears if you want to move forward in life. If you want the situation to change you will have to choose to change.

I don't have any time to repost what I wrote before, so please read what I wrote in your last thread.

littlebit, i am sorry for your pain. i don't think i have read your other thread.

it is definitely time for plan b. you will need help with this, and support especially after you go into it, so keep posting, ok?

After husband's actions didn't prove his remorse and there being no movement forward for the marriage, I called the other woman. She wasn't home. Her husband answered. I tried to get off saying that I would call back, he persisted in knowing who was calling. So, I said, "I would rather not tell you until I figure out what is going on between your wife and my husband." BOY, did he have some things to tell me.

I told H's parents again, everything.

He was livid with me. Telling me that I put his life in danger b/c her H was crazy. Still mad at me to this day "Can't forgive me" because I told things of such personal nature!!!!!! Can you believe that? I really can't imagine ANYONE doing the things he has done and having the gall to be mad at me like he is. He is REALLY lost.

He is just done with me. That is ok, because I deserve better. He is just so messed up! Funny tho, he says that he is just fine, I am the crazy one.

I know better now. I think the affair ended back then as she lives in Wisconsin, but who knows? I have tried and tried to find another phone, but never have. Actually, at this point, I don't really care. She can have him. They deserve eachother.

Over time, I have told other good friends, looking for support, but never actually exposed as I was told by all of you. I see the error in that now. I know ya'll say do as we say!!!!! Looking back, I see why I shoul have. On the other hand, he can't love. This is probably the best thing for me!!!

Littlebit,

Here's your original thread. Littlebit's original thread

Please reread the advice and ask the mods to merge your two threads so we can help you.

Thank you ML, I will keep reading this over and over!!! I need to get that in my head.

I do not work. I would like to hol off on that if I can, but may not have that luxury. I would like to be around to help the kids through this and not have everything change in their life at once.

I have started considering who to ask to be IM.

I have also begun compiling information for Plan B letter. I have to get all the financial (gambling) info ready for the attorney, so that is the first thing on my list.

I will re-read my other thread. I meant to put that into one of my previous posts a little bit ago. Sorry about that. I will do that!!!

When do you see your lawyer again?

You're documenting everything? DOCUMENT DOCUMENT DOCUMENT

You're a SAHM and that will be in your favor.

I would set a Plan B date. When can you get to this?

Thank you letty for your caring words. I will do as you and the others say. I KNOW I am going to need ya'll's help!!!

I will see if I can figure out how to ask the mods to merge my threads.

Just hit notify at the bottom right corner of each post.

OK, I clicked the notify and asked.

BrainHurts, It is going to take me a while to get all the gambling records, taxes, etc.... They said to get that together then schedule the appt. I have to do this when H is not home, and I am actually home. Summer is a busy time to do this as I am a taxi for my children.

So, give me a chance to get this info together. I will scheule with the attorney as soon as I have that information ready. Then I should have a more clear time frame for Plan B.

BTW, I have seen an attorney before for advice. I live in a no-fault state. Child support and alimony is a formula. I will have to ask for special considerations as H has spent all of our money on gambling (not spent on the family - rolled debt into mortgage- TWICE.) I am fairly confident in how this will play out. You never know tho. The judge might not consider the special considerations request. They favor 50/50 here. The woman has to go back to work. They automatically assign her at least a minimum wage job, then work the formula between the two salaries. Not fair, huh?!!!!!

Boy, they merged quickly!!!

I am trying my best to keep track of the gambling, but at this point what else is there to document?

I should document his never really spending much time with the kids. ????

Courts here will still award 50/50 as you basically have to prove as an unfit parent to have it favor one parent over the other.

Did you read the documenting thread I linked?

Document all facts, but also journal.

Yes not spending time with kids. Please make sure it's in a safe place.

BH, duh!!! No, I didn't look at the document thread, because I didn't realize it was a link to a thread!!!!! I thought it was capitalized for emphasis!!! duh!!

I will read it in a bit.

I wanted to post this on your thread also because you asked on another thread.

Here on Plan C (which is not a MB plan) and listen to the clips at the end of Dr. Harley talking about Plan C.

BSs... Plan C is not a Plan

In a custody evaluation psychological examinations may be ordered.
Document everything about addictions because that may win you custody.

In the meantime try to focus on your recovery from being married to an addict.
You should consider joining AlAnon. It is the best support group out there for spouses of addicts.

It helped me in my custody evaluation. The evaluator asked why I allowed all the bizarre behavior that always accompanies marriage to an addict to continue.
I explained I was a passive spouse in an unhealthy codependent relationship. I explained I was attending AlAnon meetings to improve myself.
It was viewed favorably by the Evaluator because they don't want us spouses to go back into unhealthy relationships. They want our kids to be safe.
Show them you are improving yourself while you document your husbands actions.

Thank you BrainHurts for responding to my thread and for continuing to try to help me. I saw your post on the other thread and went and read that whole Plan C thread. Boy, that is where I am. I think I sound tougher than I am. I am numb, lost, can't focus and falling apart. I have stayed in this WAAAY too long, cried waaaayy too much, for what?

HDW, thank you so much for the information and advice. I think I will seriously look at Al Anon now. I have looked them up before, but was scared that I might know someone there and bring "more embarassment" upon my husband. I never talked to anyone about any of his actions for 14 years. I just bottled it up inside and it destroyed me, who I was, the woman, person and mom I could be. He is mad at me for betraying him. "How could you talk about things of "that nature" with anyone else?" He is not sorry that he did it, he is just embarassed that I have spoken to some friends/family about it and THEY know.

I feel so.....empty. I live in a no-fault state. They give 50/50 custody unless something huge has happened and has to be proven. I am hoping that the proof for the gambling addiction can help me with custody. He isn't there for them anyway, even when he is home. Can you tell me anything else about how to deal with his addictions?

Thank you both so much. I am getting the financials ready. He has been home pretty much every day, and I am just able to do a little at a time. This is going to take a while.

The best way to deal with his addictions is AlAnon
YOU cannot "deal" with them anyway. You re powerless over an addiction.
AlAnon can teach you to emotionally detach from your husband and become sane again.

It is an anonymous program. What is discussed in AlAnon meeting remains unsaid after the meeting. The program is really about YOUR recovery from his addictions.

For those who are still with me. I am needing some help today. I have been crying for 2 days. At this juncture, I am not going to plan B him. I am going to plan D immediately.

Two nights ago, I told him that it has been over two years since I told him to stop his behaviors and choose us, our marriage, our family, and he has not. He has not done one thing to show his remorse, no transparancy, still lives his secret second life. He mocked me, made sarcastic faces at me, blamed me for my "sin of detraction" about him. He is angry that I have talked about the things he has done with people. I have seeked out help, solace, advice from trusted friends and family members. HE HATES IT!! Throughout the whole conversation, all I kept telling him was, "See, all you care about is what other people think, not what you did or how your actions are destroying your family." He kept denying that he cared about that, but throughout the whole conversation, he just kept referring to what I said to this person, or what that person thought, or that I made him look bad, etc. So, I kept pointing out, again, you don't care about how that hurt me/us, just how you look. Then he started grasping for straws throwing everything but the kitchen sink that I always do wrong into the conversation to throw me off. I wasn't having it. He took a shower, then said, "I am gonna meet Scott." This is almost 8:00pm. Out of the blue. So, he left. I texted him, "enjoy Scott." He thought he was texting "Scott" back, and texted me, "This is what she texted me, enjoy Scott." This was a friend of his that he told me that he hadn't told anything to. The anger I started having was instant. So, I said, "You told Scott? What did you tell him?" He said, "I told him some stuff." I told him that I know he told Scott what he wanted him to know. "Did you tell him about your affairs?" Did you tell him all the lies and deceipt that would make me act like this?" "Did you tell him everything?" I said, you are worried about my sin of detraction of you, you just did it to me. He laughted. I said when you tell helf truths, lies of ommission, and not tell what you are actually doing that I am responding to, you make me look crazy. He just mocked me, made faces at me and just denied everything. He is not even remotely sorry for NEVER being faithful to me or NEVER treating me with any dignity. I am falling apart. Please give me some advice.

Thank you HDW. I am looking into Al-Anon. Right now, I am just really needing someone to break this down for me and to tell me why it is so wrong and hurting me so much.

Hi Little I've just read your thread. You have come along way since your initial post. You have had a lot of issues to do with. You have grown and gained strength along the way.

I'm sorry you have had to face your inlaws denial about their son. It is easier for them to lay the blame at your feet for their son's addiction than to face he is an addict. Remember he is responsible for his decisions.

I'm sure by now you realise your husband's denigration of you gives him the excuse in his mind to justify his behaviour. Again he is 100% responsible for his actions.

Al-Anon has been mentioned throughout your thread, I think it would be a good idea if you could start attending some meetings, you will find additional support and may gain a better understanding of addictions that can help your personal recovery.

Your pain unfortunately is part of the healing process. You have had to face your husband's addictions, his abusive behaviour, his A and the consequences of those behaviours. His gaslighting has worn you down. You will experience the feeling of grief, loss, change, anger and resentment.

Keep posting when ever you feel low or need to vent. I'm not sure if you have been keeping a journal, but it can be healing (personally helps me) to write your thoughts and feelings. Listening to music, singing loudly, dancing around and exercising, going for a walk or a run are all good outlets. The key is to try different things and find something that works for you.

When you finally go into Plan B you will find some relief after the initial withdrawal. Having no contact with WS allows you the opportunity to focus on you and your healing. Revisit or find new interests, treat yourself (bubble baths, painting your nails etc)

Hang in there and stay strong you can do this, you will survive, just take it hour by hour, day by day. As many MBers say recovery is a marathon not a sprint.

Thank you HF66. I am going to verify the days and times where I found the Al-Anon meetings last year. I never went to them b/c I was fearful that I might run into someone that I knew/my H knew and that I would embarass him more. The verbal and emotional abuse I get from him when he thinks that I have told someone, is crushing. My fears are running me. I actually don't care who finds out anymore. He keeps up the behaviors. It is destroying our family. I need help. It is about me now. If he doesn't want to get better, that is on him. I DO. My kids need me, and I am finding these last few days that I am in such despair that I don't have anything to give. I feel guilty about that. Today is a little better. I have been able to shove the feelings down and just not think about them. I am still numb. I still feel empty. I really want to find some strength, some confidence in myself. My kids need me.

L3

Over a year ago Al-Anon was suggested by many posters. Here is a perfect way and totally anonymous.

1st steps to Al-Anon Recovery


I go to meetings IRL. There are many on-line meetings offered all over and you will be able to find them simply by performing a google search. Which one would be right for you is up to you and this is only an example. I neither endorse or oppose it since I have never participated in this particular on-line group. There are many other support groups for all kinds of addictions on the internet. Another more tailored to your H's addictions may fit better.

On- line Al-Anon Outreach


I pray this will help. You do not deserve the abuse your H dishes out. Also on the other hand you need to dig deep and find out why you have stood so long and accepted H's behavior.

I found out why I took it from my alchoholic spouse and so can you.

Never in my life again will I allow myself-with the knowledge I gained by attending the program-to engage in such a relationship similar to what I had with my XalchoholicWW.

Hope this gets you started on the recovery trail.

Dr H in one of his writings says flat out where addictions are present in a marriage the non-addict should simply run for cover. You have been at this a long time with H's gambeling and alchohol.


From the aricle by Dr. H-How the Co-dependancy movement is ruining marriages

"The care and consideration of our spouse does not leave us emotionally disabled -- unless our spouse turns out to be an addict. When it comes to addiction in marriage, my advice is to run for cover! But in marriages that do not suffer from addiction, care and consideration is not the problem, but rather the solution to problems."


Please make a committment to try one of these groups for a few months and see if YOU FEEL BETTER.

nESRE

With the exception of wayward behaviour I have never experienced verbal or physical abuse, so even though I can try to imagine the impact it has had all these years, I know I cannot fully understand. I know it is hard not to allow fear to lead your decisions, we have all experienced this to some degree, but by seeking help you will become stronger and more confident. Now is the time to start looking after you and your children.

Don't feel guilty, you need to work on your healing, little by little you will find you are in a better position to give. I think it's important to allow yourself to feel all the emotions. "Shoving them down and not thinking about them" will delay your recovery. You don't have to spend all day thinking about your feelings, even if you just allow yourself 10 -30 mins. When you feel you need to cry let the tears fall, when you feel sad maybe journal how your feeling, then you can close the book and think to yourself yes I felt sad, now I am going to do something for myself.

Your WH behaviour has eroded your confidence, you can reclaim this and be the happy confident person you were.

Hang in there and keep posting. The MB family is a wonderful place for support, its a safe place where you can express your feelings and find the support you need.

Take care

nesre & HF66, thank you so much for your kind words of encouragement. They mean a lot to me. I have to say that I am somewhat ashamed that I didn't follow the advice given to me last year. I know, I know, y'all hear that a lot!!!! I just wasn't ready. Looking back, I see where everyone was right. I also know that it comes in one's own time.

I WILL committ to going to Al-Anon meetings, and I will look for a group called Gam-A-Non online. I know there is a chapter in a city 3 hours from here, but not here. That is not feasible for me. So, an online group might just be what I need. Surely, one of them will help me.

It seems like a crazy dream that I could ever feel happiness again. I used to be so bubbly, POSITIVE, and confident in my own skin. I miss that me!!! I would love nothing better to get those tapes of his words that run through my brain, erased - PERMANENTLY!!!!!! It is the worst feeling not to believe in yourself and not have confidence in your capabilities, worrying when you are going to make the next "mistake."

I will keep posting. I really need to read the words from you all about how his actions actually affect me. It heals me a little each time you point out a hurt and why.

Regarding the gam anon, many go to AlAnon because AlAnon is everywhere.
They all use a 12 step program towards recovery.
You share you are afraid you will be recognized.
Just how silence enables affairs, so does fear enable addictions. A common trait that all children of alcoholics share is that when asked how they are, the customary answer is "fine." just as the spouse of an alcoholic covers and makes excuses for the husbands drinking and gambling so do the kids.
Your concern of being seen is a common concern. It's something you will need to overcome.

Don't feel ashamed that you didn't action advice offered earlier. You weren't ready last year, now you are - thats what is really important. You have made progress.

MB will help your personal recovery, you will in time find yourself again, you will be happy and his words will no longer have the impact they do now.

Focus on one day at a time, try not to worry about making mistakes, your more likely to make mistakes if your constantly worrying about making them.

Have you thought about going into Plan B as mentioned earlier in your thread. This will give you protection from his abusive behaviour and allow you to focus on your personal recovery. Start thinking about something you would like to do, something that interests you, makes you happy.

As I sat here and read your story, my thoughts took me back to months ago when my heart was broken too.

The most empowering moments of my personal recovery came when I realized that I could not control anyone but myself. Even now when things get a little rough in our R, I go to my internal happy place where I just focus on ME. Do what I need to feel good and move on with my day.

At some point when you have been hurt to the core and know you can't take any more, your H's LB account with you will be fully drained and you will be prepared to be strong. Once this happens, you know that whatever happens, you will be okay.

Leaning to feel my feelings and not trying to shut them off was also helpful for me. I mean just let them flow through you without fighting them. This is part of the healing process, much like grieving a death of a close friend or relative.

The H that you fell in love and married is now dead. Dead. He may choose at some point to come back but for now he is dead.

The pain is overwhelming but you must stand tall now for yourself and your children. Sometimes it is just getting through the next 5 minutes, then 10, then a whole day.

What you are experiencing is totally normal based on what you have been going through.

Some days I would just do 1 nice thing for myself everyday which provided a little relief.

What can you do for YOU right now?

Those of us who have experienced this know that things DO get better! I promise it will.

HDW, now, I am not really concerned with running into anyone I know/my H knows. My need for help is bigger than anything else right now. I also have gotten to the point where I know that I have to seek help, and that is more important to me than hiding his behaviors/choices. He continues to choose his wayward life over choosing his family, so he can deal with the fallout.

HF66, at this time, I am not interested in Plan B. I waited too long to initiate that. He has had over 2 years to move towards me. He has not. It really hurts that he just doesn't care about what he has done, is still doing and how it has hurt me and the children for SOOOOOO long!!

20YearHistory, thank you so much for your kind words. It is nice to read your words about "how" this is affecting me. I know that sounds nuts, but I am just so numb, I can't put it into words very well.

The pain has been overwhelming. My love bank is empty! It has been for a while, with the exception of some hope that just wouldn't go away. There is no marriage, and I don't hold any hope that he will ever want to work on it. He is just too empty for me. He has never really been in it. So, this is the best thing for me and the boys.

I am beginning to do little things for myself. I want to spend more time around some friends. I have pretty much cut everything out. Money will be tight, so I need to keep certain interests on the back burner for a while. I haven't figured out how to really treat myself yet. I am hoping that will come along.

I need to get the financials to the attorney, file, get through that, and then focus on me a little more. The kids are my main focus right now.

I hope you realize how much I appreciate you trying to help and explain all of this to me. I don't have a lot of support, and I REALLY need to hear this stuff!!!

Littlebit, how is it going? You WILL recover from this, personally, and find yourself stronger on the other side, and even more joyful (after all, the contrast of joy and sorrow is what makes joy so rich). I do think you should consider plan B. Heck, it is a lot of work to get set up, then after that it is very healing. And it gives you a lot of perspective.

Thank you JV for checking on me. I appreciate your words of experience. I can see it so clearly for others, why can't I feel that certaintly for myself? Intellectually, I can say that I should let him go. Really, I need to get out of his way, and let him go by. I want to take a different path in life. Emotionally, and b/c of the kids, well, that is another story completely.

I know that our family is already broken. I just still feel like I am going to break it more with the divorce. I know that sounds crazy, but that is how the kids are going to see it. I have talked to them, they still don't want the family to be split up.

I am getting everything (financials) together for Plan B. I have put my wants, desires, my life aside to hold on to this marriage, keep us together. I am not going to do that anymore. I want better for myself and my children. I have given him more than enough time to make the right choices. He doesn't want to. So, ok, he can live his second life. I am getting out of his way.

I followed your story, and am so amazed at how balanced and good you sound so quickly. You have strength that I don't think I have right now. 20 years with an addict/abuser/cheater really wears you down - takes your strength. I am just taking it one day at a time. I know it will get worse before it gets better, but you know what, I am actually looking forward to the day that I don't have to see him, talk to him or do anything for him. I want to focus on MYSELF and my children.

What other advice to you have for me?

Where are you in your Plan B process?

Where am I in the Plan B? I have contacted the attorney. I am having to go through years of credit card and bank statements to add up the gambling charges. This is slow going. I have copied pretty much everything I need to copy.

I have been keeping ideas of things to write in a PBL, but it is not time for that yet. I will at least write out a rough draft as that is the hardest part.

In regards to an IM, I don't know who to ask. This just seems so much to ask of anyone. I will come up with someone.

Exposure - I am mixed if I should do it at this time. I have no clue what he is up to. Passwords on cell phones, work computer password and protected to kingdome come. I put a VAR in his car, and he found it. He searches for it. Honestly, I really don't care anymore. He has never been an attentive, connected, husband. He can't be. He has too many addictions. He won't seek help, until he does, he can live the life he chooses to live out in the open. He is still going to do it in secret anyway. I do think that I will inform his brother (won't matter) and a friend of his behaviors and ask them to be there for him. Other than that, I don't want any more of it. I have told all of my family and friends and anyone who matters anyway. If something negative is said by brother-in-law about me, he will be doused with the truth by my friends. That would be fun to watch.

I thought that I would talk to my H about visitation schedule, finances and try to organize that close to the time I file so I can execute this then. He will not leave the house as many times as I have asked him. He just tells me that this is his house, and I can leave. He wants me to leave. So, he will have to leave b/c of my filing.

How does all of this sound? What other advice do you have?

Have you attended an AlAnon meeting?

I have talked to the people that I needed to talk to, and I will go to my first one on Tuesday night. I am hopeful that I will find the support that I need. I especially need help getting this crazy turmoil, his words, the hurts OUT of my head. Thank you so much for staying around to help me.

LB, don't fret to much about asking a close friend to IM for you. it's really not hard. it's very little work, really. check out the IM training thread and you'll see.

LB3

Take a look at HouseElfs last few posts posts about al-anon meeting.

nESRE

Littlebit,

This is in response to your question on the Investigate board where you asked how to tell if a keylogger was present. I left a response but then thought I'd best delete it because, well, why educate a wayward on keyloggers if they happened to see it.

Here's my response:


Another easy check is to look for the exceptions list in your antivirus program. This is a list of files that the antivirus program ignores during scans and is manually entered when the keylogger is installed.

If you have a list of files there, delete them and run the antivirus. Some may be legitimate programs, but scan to make sure.

Also do the same with Windows Defender as it has a similar list.

Alternately, uninstall your current antivirus and install a new one (Avast is a free one) and run it. Since the new program wouldn't have the exceptions for the keylogger, it should find it.

Write back if you have any questions. No guarantees, but maybe I can walk you through it.

Where are you at with this?

yes, littlebit, how are you? did you attend the meeting yesterday?

Thank you for checking in on me. I really need the support.

I cannot begin plan B b/c my H will not move out of the house. I have been advised not to leave the home or remove the children from the home. I have not made as much progress as I would like on the financial gathering. There are some things that I just can't find or don't have access to. I have to print out some, do the highlighting and adding up. My doing this is saving me a lot of money. I have moved everything over to a friends house, so I can't just work on it a bit when H is gone. He is a sales rep, so he has very flexible hours. He is home a lot. I have the kids and running them around to all of their activities, friends, etc...

I look forward to plan B. I am miserable with him and the toxic environment he creates. He is a shell of his former self, and even then, I think he was pretending. I look at him and just feel sadness and loss. It is sad how far he has fallen. I feel sad for him. I hurt for my children!!! I have mourned and cried for so many years. Enough is enough!! I need to protect my children and myself from his abuse, addictions and infideity. I do not want to go down this road any longer. He can have his cake all he wants, he just can't "eat it too" anymore.

I have not made a meeting yet. I really do have a lot going on. I thought Tu and Th nights might work, but it just doesn't work out. I think my best bet is to find one during the day after the kids start back to school here in a week. That way, there is no having to meet their needs, nor do I have to explain to my H what I am doing.

Thank you so much for checking in on me.

Thank you Northwood for responding to my inquiry. I will have figure out where to begin. I am not a techie, so you would probably LOVE to be a fly on the wall watching me try to figure it out!!!! Thank you for typing it all out. I really am grateful!!

You can bring your two older kids to a meeting. FYI

Hi everyone. I read every day on here about Plan B and the benefits of it. I truly can see them working in people's stories on here. I am trying to change my mindset from a buyer to a freeloader while having to stay in this situation until I can file for D. Believe it or not, that helps a little bit!! I am also going to go to some Alanon meetings to try to learn how to disconnect with love. I can't seem to do that. My question is HOW do you not think about your WH? HOW? I can't imagine not having thoughts of H, his actions, feeling the hurt, destroying our life..... I know the advice given about hobbies, etc.... I am trying to do that some now. I am stuck. Emotionally, I have a difficult time not being paralyzed by all this. I spend a lot of time wtih the kids, doing for the kids, cleaning the house, cooking dinner, working in the yard, etc... I am having such a hard time fitting anything else in. I am just so emotionally dead. I am very grateful that you are all willing to help me. I need to start my IC back up. She is great, but I am just stuck.

You'll feel more empowered once you actually take steps to correct the situation, i.e, filing for a divorce/separation--actually pulling the trigger on it.

It will remain the same until you make a move. There will always be something going on that will make you want to delay--the kids are in school, they're out of school, you're out of work, you just started a job, you just need $1,000 more, you just need $2,000 more...

I understand about feeling emotionally dead, you see happy lives going on around you and yours is not. I for one, go in and out of this feeling everyday. I think you need to make a move, have a plan. (Plan B) I think about my WH everyday, I can not wait for the day when I wake up and I do not have to think about this mess of my life or his life. Try and stay in control, and really think you will be happy again and what we have all been through is not a normal way to live life.

Thank you Northwood and Mason. You both give me something to think about. I am so numb and blank today. I don't like ANY of my options. I wish he would just leave, so I can get away from his abuse!! Why won't he leave? He doesn't want a marriage. We have no marriage! We will be so much happier away from one another. UGGGG!!

Have you asked him to leave (silly question I am sure you have) I agree you should not leave. The month my WH and I spent in the house was horrible and strenuous. What is his reason for staying? Besides torturing you.

I have NO CLUE really, other than he doesn't want to leave. He wants to stay here AND live his independent lifestyle. He knows I can't do anything about it, so he just ignores me. Whenever I ask him to please leave, please stay somewhere else, he tells me that he is not leaving his house and that I can leave, I should leave. He has it made, why upet the apple cart?

I do think that he enjoys hurting me. I hurt him by closing down to his hurts, closing down sexually, and he is going to hurt me. The problem is, is that, that is all he really has ever done, hurt me back!! I was closing down due to hurt to his critical, judgemental, disconnected, non-supportive, treatment and how dare I hurt him by not letting his hurtful actions act as foreplay? He has hurt me back a million fold over the last 18 years. He is just so self-absorbed. I do think that he is emotionally stunted. Seriously, he just doesn't get how anything he does, criticism, hurtful words, etc. affect people. I should just be ready and willing to give him sex every night. Not that he wants it now. He has his own life and that is non of my business (according to him.)

So, anyway, heck if I know. He just needs to go!!! It is horrible, depressing, angering, sad, everything. He really doesn't even spend time with the kids. Other than not wanting to change anything, have people wonder what is going on, and financial considerations, I am cluless as to why he just won't go. Our marriage is over.

Then I would proceed with filing for exclusive use of the property so that he is forced to leave. An attorney could advise on how to make that happen.

I just read all of your thread in one sitting...the down side to that is I wasn't able to post along the way...the up side is that I get a clearer picture of what is transpiring.

A lot of people have been telling you from the beginning to Plan B and this much time has passed and you still haven't done it. If he won't leave, have your attorney file so he will have to leave. It is essential for your well being and the longer this drags out the harder it will be for the kids. My kids' dad did this for over a year, it was extremely stressful...you don't want that. He was very controlling and wanted to have the say when and how we should split up.

Another thing I surmised is how far you have come with inner strength and emotionally. The change is tremendous! Now if you can just implement that strength into action, you'll be all set! Stop making excuses and get yourself to an Al-Anon meeting TODAY! There will always be baseball games, dinner to fix, etc. Get another mother to drive the kids. Better yet, get your H to drive them, he is their father, after all. But no more procrastination, get to Al Anon and make an appt. with your attorney about getting him out of the house. It is mentally debilitating to continue to reside together at this point.

LB3

Have you read this book?

http://www.amazon.com/Codependent-No-More-Controlling-Yourself/dp/0894864025

Blunt and to the point.....

Deep down inside yourself you do know why you are paralyzed...

Living with an active addict and all the crap they bring into life to you is living a second hand life. You roll with whatever is brought into your life. Re-action to whatever the addict brings in next...A'S-gambeling-drinking.....

You do have choices and if you do not exercise them then the second hand life is yours and sorry to say(Changed this-because you do make a choice to live this way) you do get "something" out of it...

Read the book and YES the whole title is true when choosing to live with an active addict.

It was a hard pill for me to swallow.

Not that the alchoholic WW wouldn't leave-THAT I PUT UP WITH IT FOR SO LONG....And the crap I took...And the reasons.....

nESRE

Nesre's last paragraph hits the nail on the head.
AlAnon will teach you to focus on yourself and not your husband.

Because its really not your husband, it's how you react to his actions.