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You see, sometimes Recovery here does not always mean Marital Recovery. Sometimes it is Personal recovery.
Just wanted you to know you are not alone.
nESRE Thannk you nesre. I need someone to help me dig deep inside myself too to question things, to figure things out, to figure out who I AM and what I want now. snip It is now about personal recovery for me. [i]I am just in such a bad place that I don't know what to do. Nothing feels right. [/i] Thank you for being there for me. I don't want to be alone. I need help. First things first, You are NOT alone here!!! Stay active on your thread and Listen To The Vets!!!Yes, you are in a bad place and nothing feels right. That is because you are under the gas lighting fog babble bullarky. Until you understand those and see how it is playing out in your life, and get away from it, you will not be able to see clearly. You can NOT save a marriage with an addict. Your WS is an addict, from what I saw, of several things... he is the ONLY one who can fix himself, and he's showing no signs of doing so. If he choses to get clean of many things, then you might have a chance, but not until he is totally clean, drinking, gambling, women, everything. No one 'believes' in divorce. I know I sure don't but I'm looking at #2 coming soon. I was raised in the Catholic church, and I know the road you will travel with them if you go this route. I left the church long ago, but in my situation? Knowing what I know now? NOTHING would hold me back from getting as far away as I could from the enviornment I was in. That has to be a personal choice you make. This does NOT stop you from going into a deep dark Plan B. And that is the Plan I believe you are in need of working on now. You have got to get away from his destructive behaviour! Where to start? Start Here That is a TON of reading. For now, just start. Especially read up about gas lighting and fog babble, those pages are what finally got the rest of the way thru to me that it was NOT MY FAULT that I was not indeed, crazy. That stuff will bring you out of the BS Fog. I did not read your full thread yet, the first two pages tore me as I have so been in your shoes. I have become a Survivor, you can too! What state are you in? Do you know their divorce laws? Separation laws? I am not saying that is where you are heading, but knowledge is power. You are fighting against addictions, and until those are cleaned up, you can't fix your marriage. Do you have the financial resources to get out? I don't think he will volunarily leave, which would be the best thing. nERSE has spoken some good words, remember, you are not alone!!! My Story
I am 52, stbxh is 46
One child together 15 DD
2 (mine) from 1st marriage, 26 dd and 28 ds.
Married Dec 94
Separated Oct 09
Too many D-Days to list. (EA/Cyber affairs)
He filed no fault 3-2011 I countered with grounds.
Court date set for June 6, 2011 for Final Decree and was continued.
That ticked him off, he is now fighting for custody.
Lawyers are expensive, my daughter is worth every penny.
Even the ones I have to borrow.
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In Plan B, you cut off all communication with your wayward spouse. Having shown them how wonderful a person you can be as a marriage partner, you remove yourself from their lives to show them how bad it is out there without you. In Plan A, fence-sitting is almost unavoidable. Your wayward spouse gets some of their emotional needs met by you and others met by the other person. In Plan B, you suddenly, and completely, stop providing those needs you had been filling for your spouse. When they aren’t being met, it increases strife in that fantasy world your spouse and his or her partner in adultery have in common with only each other. Strife begets pressure. Pressure begets unhappiness. Unhappiness begets separation…and you win.
Plan B may require a legal separation or the equivalent in your state. Discuss your needs with an attorney. Get a good one. You need a bull dog to represent you, not someone who goes with the flow.
At this point, if you have not already done so, you need to separate your finances from your wayward spouse’s. Safeguarding your financial situation and making sure your assets cannot be looted by a wayward spouse still in the fog is different for everyone but here are some suggestions.
You can have the current joint credit cards cancelled and new ones issued only in your name. You need to make sure the WS can't drain checking & savings accounts. You might need to establish checking accounts the WS cannot access. Make sure you have access to enough cash/assets to pay the bills, etc. Powers of attorney might need to be looked at, if any are currently in effect. Don’t agree to any new obligations, new second mortgages, new cars, commit to paying WS’s expenses, etc., etc.
Plan B may last as long as another eighteen months. From Here
I am 52, stbxh is 46
One child together 15 DD
2 (mine) from 1st marriage, 26 dd and 28 ds.
Married Dec 94
Separated Oct 09
Too many D-Days to list. (EA/Cyber affairs)
He filed no fault 3-2011 I countered with grounds.
Court date set for June 6, 2011 for Final Decree and was continued.
That ticked him off, he is now fighting for custody.
Lawyers are expensive, my daughter is worth every penny.
Even the ones I have to borrow.
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LB3 NSZ gave you good info on Plan B. The plan does requre planning so read all you can about the plan and ask questions. You have been living this way for a long time. Dr. H would not even counsel in M's where addictions were present and would require the addict to get treatment and some length of recovery before he would counsel. The reason being whatever the addiction was would be of higher importance than the M. QUOTE-Dr. Harley
LOVEBUSTERS PAGE 248
“Those with a history of addiction usually have a difficult time learning to be thoughtful.
The self-centeredness they perfect as addicts stays with them even when they’ve overcome the addiction.
What looks like thoughtfulness often turns out to be manipulation----they appear to be thoughtful to get their way.
True thoughtfulness accommodates the feelings of others for their sake.
It is a willingness to give up behavior that is offensive to others and create new and appealing behavior.
You create romantic love when you do something that is deeply appreciated. It’s preserved when you avoid behavior that is deeply resented.” A one post answer or having this solved by next week is not going to happen. Keep coming back and sort this out. Writing down or journaling as was suggested may help you to really see your goals in black and white. Also it may help to determine what direction you would like to go persnally and with the M. I myself could not stay with my alcoholic WW any longer. Basically WW had 10 years of sobriety. Started drinking again in 1999 and it has been a cycle of treatment centers and detoxes. Add in the OM on and off the last 5 to 6 years and you have a real mess. I know of two posters here who remained M'd to alcoholics. Both told me it was a delicate balancing act that requred firm understanding in both MB's and Al-Anon principles. While there H's are actively drinking they can not do it exactly to MB's principles. Its a hard road when you go that direction. I possibly could have stayed with my alcoholic wife-I won't (and did divorce) my WW wife. Rubbing the A in my face and the continual verbal abuse when drunk was enough for me. Until the underlying issue of alcoholism is addressed with her seeking and maintaining sobriety I will stay a safe distance for my sanity. Not even friends. No contact. Good Lord knows I tried as hard as I could to help her with staying sober. Keep coming back. nESRE
M 29 yrs
DS 28 DD 18
Me 53 FWH FBS
MTA signed 5/11/2011
D final 5/16/2011
Free.... and going wherever the big guy wants me to go......
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Thank you nesre and No Stress Zone. I REALLY appreciate your thoughtful and thorough responses. I need to let them sink in and re-read them. I need to re-read Pep's advice to me too. I clicked the start here that you posted (the thread for newbies), and I will read that too. I am spcifically interested in the gas lighting fog babble information. If it is not in that link, can you send me more information on it or where I can find it? I really need to read that. I feel crazy. I don't have the words to express how I feel, why I feel that way. It is just total craziness, and somehow it is me that is the crazy one??????!!!!! I know living the life I have been living, dealing with the things I have been dealing with, never having a foothold in my own life, etc... makes one come apart, but he is good at compartmentalizing and making it seem like it is me. I am just in such knots that I have not been able to undo it all. I am better, but nowhere close to where I need to be. I also know that I can't do it alone. I will do my reading and re-reading when he is not home and I can focus. Thank you so much for your help. I feel odd about reaching out to complete strangers, but I KNOW you all have been there and know what I am going through and that is the infomation and strength I am looking for. Thank you for building me up and trying to give me strength. I know I need it!!! I really do. Did I say thank you!!? hehehe I really am grateful. Have a great night everyone!!
BS Me 47,WH 49
DS's x3 17, 10, 7
Multiple D-Days
No disclosure by WH. No EP's, no transparency, no guilt or remorse either.
Plan C DOES NOT WORK!
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Thank you nesre and No Stress Zone. I REALLY appreciate your thoughtful and thorough responses. I need to let them sink in and re-read them. I need to re-read Pep's advice to me too.
I clicked the start here that you posted (the thread for newbies), and I will read that too.
I am spcifically interested in the gas lighting fog babble information. If it is not in that link, can you send me more information on it or where I can find it? I really need to read that.
Gaslighting is a term used to descibe a behavior almost all waywards use. Addicts specialize in it though they may not be waywards. Both use it to get their fix, cover up their fix, minimize there fix. Addict whatever it is that turns their crank. Drugs/alcohol/gambeling etc. Waywards-To throw you off them and the OP.
Two ways work to find info.
One is you can do a search on yahoo/google/MSN etc. Just type in gaslighting and go to the links and read.
Another is to search the MB site. Above the box where you type your response is a search feature. You can type in there what you are looking for and posts will come up usually with the specific word in them. I believe it only goes back 200 referances- and from recent to older.
If you hit advanced search in that box another screen shows and you can filter to a paticular poster, topic or time frame filter. Play with it and see what you can find.
I feel crazy. I don't have the words to express how I feel, why I feel that way. It is just total craziness, and somehow it is me that is the crazy one??????!!!!!
Thats exactly the results of being constantly gaslit. We begin to doubt ourselves, our own judgement, and reality because the people who supposedly love us the most wouldn't steer us wrong or lie to us would they?
It is a subtle form of emotional abuse addicts and most waywards would try to perfect if we would let them.
I know living the life I have been living, dealing with the things I have been dealing with, never having a foothold in my own life, etc... makes one come apart, but he is good at compartmentalizing and making it seem like it is me. I am just in such knots that I have not been able to undo it all. I am better, but nowhere close to where I need to be. I also know that I can't do it alone.
Al-Anon will help you find the tools and real life support that is necessary should you chose to personally recover or combat gaslighting from an active using addict.
MB's Plan B here also helps to give you a physical break or seperation from the active addict/wayward. Plan A will only strengthen a person who is already taking advantage of you. The abuse can be so subtle and over such an extended time that "The Gauges" or "Our Personal Warning System"are way off and we feel like we are the crazy ones when we do doubt our spouse or sometimes even children.
I will do my reading and re-reading when he is not home and I can focus.
Read all you can and come back and ask questions.
Thank you so much for your help. I feel odd about reaching out to complete strangers, but I KNOW you all have been there and know what I am going through and that is the infomation and strength I am looking for. Thank you for building me up and trying to give me strength. I know I need it!!! I really do.
Did I say thank you!!? hehehe I really am grateful. Have a great night everyone!!
Your welcome and goodnight!
nESRE
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I get most of my info searching google, this search on site doesn't like me at all.  I just type in what I'm looking for on google with marriage builders at the end so it will pull up info from this site. If I remember right, one of those links in that first article will link you to the fogbabble threads. Started with a members name, long? something? I want to say it's 3 or 4 links down. Then again, could be a few posts down before you hit those links. I could go look, but I'm testing my memory right now. One of my issues with the MS, is my own medical version of brain fog  It is MUCH better now than it used to be while under the influence of fogbaggle and gaslighting as well. Thank God.
I am 52, stbxh is 46
One child together 15 DD
2 (mine) from 1st marriage, 26 dd and 28 ds.
Married Dec 94
Separated Oct 09
Too many D-Days to list. (EA/Cyber affairs)
He filed no fault 3-2011 I countered with grounds.
Court date set for June 6, 2011 for Final Decree and was continued.
That ticked him off, he is now fighting for custody.
Lawyers are expensive, my daughter is worth every penny.
Even the ones I have to borrow.
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Posts: 233
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blah, memory was bad but not a total loss...the fogbabble links are on page 2, 4 posts down, in a post by Scotland. had the 4 in there, just not in right spot I do keep trying! gaslighting, has tons of info if you google it.
I am 52, stbxh is 46
One child together 15 DD
2 (mine) from 1st marriage, 26 dd and 28 ds.
Married Dec 94
Separated Oct 09
Too many D-Days to list. (EA/Cyber affairs)
He filed no fault 3-2011 I countered with grounds.
Court date set for June 6, 2011 for Final Decree and was continued.
That ticked him off, he is now fighting for custody.
Lawyers are expensive, my daughter is worth every penny.
Even the ones I have to borrow.
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Another very good book re crazy making is STALKING THE SOUL by ANNE MARIE HIRIGOYAN she is a french writer who specializes in victimology.Surprising as it may seem there appears to be no language barrier to this form of behaviour.
Available from Amazon.
GOOD LUCK
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blah, memory was bad but not a total loss...the fogbabble links are on page 2, 4 posts down, in a post by Scotland. had the 4 in there, just not in right spot I do keep trying! gaslighting, has tons of info if you google it. Page 2 where? I have no clue where this page 2 is. I will try to put it in the search bar.
BS Me 47,WH 49
DS's x3 17, 10, 7
Multiple D-Days
No disclosure by WH. No EP's, no transparency, no guilt or remorse either.
Plan C DOES NOT WORK!
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MelodyLane, I don't know if you are still reading this thread or not.... I hope you are. I have read and re-read the link you gave me about Why Can't We Just Forgive and Forget. I read them a couple of weeks ago and again today. I understand that I have forgiven him when I shouldn't have, haven't set the bar high enough, etc.. What is it that you are specifically thinking that I need to look at?
Please keep responding to me. I look forward to your advice.
BS Me 47,WH 49
DS's x3 17, 10, 7
Multiple D-Days
No disclosure by WH. No EP's, no transparency, no guilt or remorse either.
Plan C DOES NOT WORK!
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I told my husband this morning that it was time for us to go our separate ways. I told him that since "He doesn't see me in that role" (of wife0, hasn't disclosed any information, isn't actively working on improving the marriage, isn't being transparent, still living a secretive private life from me that he needs to go. I explained what I no longer want in my life and why and that I was ready to let him go, that he is not the one for me. He brought up that money is an issue, how would we afford it, where would he go, etc...? Money is an issue b/c he has gambled all of it away!
GET THIS!!! He told me this morning that he is confident that he can continue not to gamble anymore. (The only reason he isn't is because the US government shut the sites down in the US.) That he has more discipline than anyone he knows and that he is confident that he won't do it anymore. I explained that he can stop all of it, but that unless he gets help for the real reasons he turned to those things in the first place, he would still be in a bad place. I also told him that no matter what he does, he can't make himself love someone that he doesn't love and that this is not the kind of relationship I want. He then kept trying to buffer my asking him to leave with trying to work on things??????? What does that mean? He isn't talking about working on our marriage, so what is he talking about? I know that working on each of our selves, trying to be considerate, etc..., but that would be to make a marriage work. It is over, right?
BS Me 47,WH 49
DS's x3 17, 10, 7
Multiple D-Days
No disclosure by WH. No EP's, no transparency, no guilt or remorse either.
Plan C DOES NOT WORK!
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I also keep forgetting to answer the question on whether he has ever been rough or physically abusive with me or the boys. No, he has never touched us, hit us, anything. He is just verbal.
BS Me 47,WH 49
DS's x3 17, 10, 7
Multiple D-Days
No disclosure by WH. No EP's, no transparency, no guilt or remorse either.
Plan C DOES NOT WORK!
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I am finding information on gaslighting, but not really about fog-babble. I truly believe I have been gaslighted for all of these years. If it the description perfectly! I want to learn to trust myself/trust my instincts again. I know I have good common sense. I am also always open for someone to show me where I could be wrong. I have always been like that. I think that if you attack me with it though, I am not going to respond well. I would then need to calm down. Most of the time, even then, I can find a small silver lining of some truth in the mean words. I used to take that and try to learn from it. Now, I just can't do anything right, so I quit trying so hard.
BS Me 47,WH 49
DS's x3 17, 10, 7
Multiple D-Days
No disclosure by WH. No EP's, no transparency, no guilt or remorse either.
Plan C DOES NOT WORK!
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Little
Gambling aside he is still having an A. IMHO the first step for him is to agree to NC with his OW and commit to the marriage.
once he commits to the marriage you can actively help him find help for his other issues until then I suggest you withdraw the acts of kindness you give him and the support he gets with his life. He's worried about money and finances now that the proverbial s hit the fan what happened to that concern when he was abusing you, the marriage vows and the family s security.
Too little too late he needs to commit to you and his kids 100% or not at all
BW 36(Me)
WS 38
Married: 2000
DD1November 22 2008 - DD2 October 2014
PA Duration September 08 - November 08
Second discovery- 6 online affairs 4 sexual one emotional. October 2014.kids: DS 17, DS 14, DS 12, DS 10 . Baby after divorce DS 18months
Divorced
Was misled into thinking we were in recovery for 6 years.
If you were shocked reading any of this, that this is the consequence of not following MB to the LETTER.
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I am finding information on gaslighting, but not really about fog-babble. I truly believe I have been gaslighted for all of these years. If it the description perfectly! I want to learn to trust myself/trust my instincts again. I know I have good common sense. I am also always open for someone to show me where I could be wrong. I have always been like that. I think that if you attack me with it though, I am not going to respond well. I would then need to calm down. Most of the time, even then, I can find a small silver lining of some truth in the mean words. I used to take that and try to learn from it. Now, I just can't do anything right, so I quit trying so hard. Second page, fourth post down by Scotland are five links to various fogbabbly posts. I'm more concerned with something else now that I read your signature line. Plan A for HOW LONG? Dr. Harley recommends THREE WEEKS for wives. Your husband has been having cake and eating it for how long?????? Come on girlfriend, get on the stick here. Read this to understand better Plan A & B Carrot and Stick of Plan A Carrot and Stick of Plan A revisited Read those links Scotland posts on that thread. Make sure you totally understand this stuff! You know you have been gaslighted, you will see the fogbabble coming out his mouth, move on to FIX THIS.
I am 52, stbxh is 46
One child together 15 DD
2 (mine) from 1st marriage, 26 dd and 28 ds.
Married Dec 94
Separated Oct 09
Too many D-Days to list. (EA/Cyber affairs)
He filed no fault 3-2011 I countered with grounds.
Court date set for June 6, 2011 for Final Decree and was continued.
That ticked him off, he is now fighting for custody.
Lawyers are expensive, my daughter is worth every penny.
Even the ones I have to borrow.
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Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 514
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Little
Gambling aside he is still having an A. IMHO the first step for him is to agree to NC with his OW and commit to the marriage.
once he commits to the marriage you can actively help him find help for his other issues until then I suggest you withdraw the acts of kindness you give him and the support he gets with his life. He's worried about money and finances now that the proverbial s hit the fan what happened to that concern when he was abusing you, the marriage vows and the family s security.
Too little too late he needs to commit to you and his kids 100% or not at all He, of course, says he is not having an affair. He says he is not talking to her. What makes you say that he is having an affiar? Also, he said he was committed to making the marriage work. I threw everything into it, but he really didn't. He is acting like now he would like to try to find something to re-connect on. I think this is just a ploy to drag it on. He doesn't want me, doesn't want a sexual relationship with me, doesn't see me in the role, so I don't think that he will commit to the marriage. He has really never been committed all these years. I am just finally realizing it. I am dense.
BS Me 47,WH 49
DS's x3 17, 10, 7
Multiple D-Days
No disclosure by WH. No EP's, no transparency, no guilt or remorse either.
Plan C DOES NOT WORK!
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[quote=No_Stress_ZoneI'm more concerned with something else now that I read your signature line. Plan A for HOW LONG? Dr. Harley recommends THREE WEEKS for wives. Your husband has been having cake and eating it for how long?????? Come on girlfriend, get on the stick here. Read this to understand better Plan A & B Carrot and Stick of Plan A Carrot and Stick of Plan A revisited Read those links Scotland posts on that thread. Make sure you totally understand this stuff! You know you have been gaslighted, you will see the fogbabble coming out his mouth, move on to FIX THIS. [/quote] I just found MB, so my Plan A wasn't exactly Plan A, but really close. I was loving, open, giving, understanding, hopeful, he was just interested in someone else at the time. I don't know if he is now b/c he won't admit to anything, but he certainly isn't interested in me.
BS Me 47,WH 49
DS's x3 17, 10, 7
Multiple D-Days
No disclosure by WH. No EP's, no transparency, no guilt or remorse either.
Plan C DOES NOT WORK!
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What makes me think he is still in an A is his wayward behaviour.
One of the key things required when a spouse commits to a marriage is absolute and total transparency. Has he given you Full access to his phone records, pc , laptop etc? If he hasn't there is no other explanation apart from the fact that the A is still active.
BW 36(Me)
WS 38
Married: 2000
DD1November 22 2008 - DD2 October 2014
PA Duration September 08 - November 08
Second discovery- 6 online affairs 4 sexual one emotional. October 2014.kids: DS 17, DS 14, DS 12, DS 10 . Baby after divorce DS 18months
Divorced
Was misled into thinking we were in recovery for 6 years.
If you were shocked reading any of this, that this is the consequence of not following MB to the LETTER.
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He says he is not having an affair, that it is just that he doesn't know exactly what his feelings are. He doesn't feel that love for me that he used to. He is still saying that he probably didn't love me enough to marry me. That he ignored things or excused them that he didn't like before we got married. He thought they wouldn't be a problem. That very well could be true, but he married me. So now what?
He is saying that he doesn't feel like telling me anything. He won't say why he won't disclose any information or delete her from his FB account. He actually thinks he is being transparent. I asked him what could he have done that would make me feel he was being transparent. He said because he is talking to me about things. He just doesn't get it. He doesn't want to tell me anything, so he isn't.
BS Me 47,WH 49
DS's x3 17, 10, 7
Multiple D-Days
No disclosure by WH. No EP's, no transparency, no guilt or remorse either.
Plan C DOES NOT WORK!
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He is NOT being transparent and obviously doesn't want to be!!!!
BS Me 47,WH 49
DS's x3 17, 10, 7
Multiple D-Days
No disclosure by WH. No EP's, no transparency, no guilt or remorse either.
Plan C DOES NOT WORK!
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