I've been a reader here for years and have learned immensely from Dr Harley's concepts. But I have never participated on the forums and would like to ask a question today about whether there are cases where a truly happy ending is just a hopeful illusion, even when both parties try to recover.

D day for me was over 2 years ago when I learned that WH had had a 5 year long affair behind my back. Rewind to the years prior to that - WH was starting to express interest in some pretty perverse (to me) sexual activities that I did not support. I had no interest in them and therefore obviously did not meet his needs in that regard. I thought he got over it and it was simply something that wasn't a factor anymore. Turns out he had found an outlet - with a very young and very beautiful woman to boot. She was into the same kinds of perversions and somehow they found each other online and began an online affair, which later turned very physical when they discovered they live close.

I was non the wiser - in fact, I thought things between us were great and that WH loved me. He still regularly wanted to have sex with me.
Then I don't know exactly what triggered him to tell me about the affair, but I believe partly it was because he kind of got bored with OW and also had to realize after 5 years that the relationship wasn't really going anywhere. He also began to believe that perhaps he could have what he had wanted all along with me. So one day he simply sat me down and released the bomb on me. In fact with VERY little remorse. He blamed me saying that if only I had met his needs when he had begged me to, none of this would have even happened and that he hates the fact that he ever got involved. My reaction was immediate. I told him to get out and that I don't want to see him again EVER.
Well, guess what - he spun on his heels and walked out. Not a word. I spent the next few weeks crying my eyes out - he never so much as called. Later I found that he had moved in with OW. I also found out through common sources that he was doing pretty ok. It gets worse - about 3 weeks after he'd walked out, he sent me an email saying that its basically my loss - that he came clean but I shunned him. That he will never love her as much as he does me but that at least she's dynamite in bed and that helps to make out for a lot!!!! I was in agony.
About a couple months after that it was I who reached out to him, basically saying that I forgive him and let him go, if he is truly happy with his choice.
That is when things turned around and he wrote back saying he was sorry for the awful things he had said and wanted to attempt a reconciliation. Giddy that he still actually wanted to (after so much rejection this seemed like a miracle), I let him back. Maybe too easily.
For some time, even though he was "working on things" with me, he still kept contact with OW every once in a while. Until it became too much and one day he finally realized how much pain he was putting me through. He sent a no contact letter, we moved and he has basically taken every step possible since to try to make it up to me.
Now I need to also say one more thing - when we were separated I ran across his diary that he had kept where he wrote a LOT about OW. It was never intended for her to read, but rather his thoughts and feelings. The feelings were all about how incredibly hot he found her, how AMAZING the sex was and how he would ever be able to let go of her if it ever has to end. I will not go into graphic descriptions but it was probably a book full (over a 5 year period). I have no idea why he kept such a diary, but it seems that he wrote these feelings down during times he could not be with her but was missing her. Aside of that, I also found a couple of videos (phone recorded ones most likely) of them having sex. I can't believe I watched them, but not knowing that they were, I did. It was during a time I thought we would never get back together and I thought it would help me realize what a fool I am even thinking about this man anymore.
The problem is... the videos and the diaries don't lie. WH was definitely over the moon (at least sexually) about this woman. Also, it doesn't help that she was absolutely gorgeous I am not unattractive, but it is hard to compete with perfection. She was one of those kinds of women that make mens' heads turn. What she wanted with WH, I don't know. But its no wonder he was nuts about her.
When WH came back I was happy and thrilled that he still left her for me and that he was willing to do everything (no contact, moving away etc) to be with me forever.
But now, 2 years down the line, even though everything has changed in my life, I am finding that I am unable to get over the imagery that haunts me and over everything I'd read and seen. I thought that time will heal but it is almost as if with time I start feeling more angry and more resentful. I sometimes wonder what would have happened if I had never reached out in the first place to WH and whether I should have simply let him go. Because now, even though I have him "back", I feel as if I am suffering with post traumatic stress disorder.
Even though we have moved away, everytime I see a woman who looks anything like her, whether in a magazine or on the street, or even a female college student, I start thinking about her and WH and the documented diary of how he felt about her.
I try to shut it out. I wish I didn't even know. I would have almost rather lived with a lie that he wasn't so turned on by her even if this wasn't the case (maybe I just say that). In his diary he described how they had spent a full weekend together (I was out of town) having nothing but sex ALL day and that he didn't want it to end because he is "insatiable" when it comes to her body and that he sometimes doesn't know how it is he ever lets her go.
This goes on and on and on.

The thing is right now... sometimes I cry and feel disgusted with myself for ever letting him back. I feel inadequate and even though sex with him is passionate, I feel like it can never compete with what I saw in the videos with the little porn-starlet woman (fake breasts and all).

As times goes on and this resentment and bitterness and imagery is not ebbing, I am now truly wondering if maybe this marriage is simply doomed? WH is getting tired of me bringing it up, in fact he absolutely hates me ever mentioning her and would be perfectly happy never thinking or talking about her again. (maybe he does think about her but I wont' know).
For me, I start to wonder if I am simply incapable of getting over it.

I don't know what to do. If there is hope, I want to keep trying and seeing if this can eventually fade. But maybe, I am simply never going to get over this. And if so maybe I need to be honest with myself and move on?

Is there such a thing as too much damage sometimes?

2cents, welcome to Marriage Builders. I am very sorry for your tragedy.

How long did you know about the affair before it ended?

What have you and your husband done to create romantic love in your marriage? Typically when the present is happy, the focus moves to the present and away from the past. I know of one particular poster who does have PTSD from false recoveries and she is doing great today b

Sometimes there is too much damage IMO. What is a dealbreaker to one person may not be to another.

There may be hope but you also need to be honest with yourself as well as have a plan..and follow it.

You said you still talk to your H about the affair...what specifically are you talking about? Since you've been a reader for yrs, what is UA time like? EPs that are in place? What JC has your H provided?

Even two yrs post Dday, your feelings are normal.

I would say that before things TRULY ended (no contact ever again), it probably took about 8 months. Since then its been 1.5 years.

WH deposits a lot of points in the love bank each and every day. Unfortunately I have to suppress withdrawing from his bank because I literally have to bite my tongue sometimes not to bring up the affair, or more specifically just simply be able to talk about the imagery that is haunting me and poisoning my life. I have sickening dreams and sometimes simply wake up mad at him even though nothing new happened. The dream would bring it back freshly.
There are times when I see someone who looks like her or acts like her or reminds me of her in any way, and my mind instantly brings back the horrible thoughts of them together.
Most of all, what is difficult for me is getting over his mad desire for her that I know was real. He says he didn't love her, although he does admit to an emotional attachment. But when it comes to passion/physical attraction, he just goes quiet because he knows he can't deny the things he said to me or the things I read and saw. He claims he never thinks about her and also has tried many times to "salvage the damage" by awkwardly trying to make me believe it wasn't what it was, but I see right through it. He simply doesn't want me to suffer from the truth, so he tries to cover it up with white lies, which is actually enraging.

There are days when things are great, and there are others when I feel like I can barely breathe, even though nothing new happened.
Sometimes, I simply think, I cannot get over it, and continuing this relationship is unnatural.
When I was little, my parents went through surviving an affair themselves and I swore to myself that I would NEVER put up with a man who cheats on me. That was basically my deal breaker. Which is of course why I showed WH the door when I first learned.
But emotional distress, rejection and horrible pain made me believe that taking him back will make the pain go away. But I had no idea that I would feel this way down the line. Maybe I'm truly never meant to get over this.

argh, computer problems! Back to my point. My friend who has PTSD is in a happy, fulfilled, romantic marriage today because she went through the MB program. It was a very difficult, long road, but with Dr Harley's guidance she and her husband made it though to the other side.

Harley states that when there is lingering resentment, that recovery is not complete. If a romantic, passionate marriage is created, it takes the focus off the past. When the present is happy, the focus tends to be in the present.

Here's a good show where Dr. Harley talks with a man whose WW had an affair the whole 10 years of his marriage.
Radio clip
Segment #2
Segment #3

THIS is the cause of your problem. Dr H suggests no more than 3-4 WEEKS of continued contact between you and your WH while he is still in contact wtih the OW. The reason is because women suffer nervous breakdowns and suffer PTSD.


I can see he is lying about the affair to spare your feelings. He was in love with her. However, he can feel the same for you if you do this right. Believe it or not, you have a distinct competitive advantage. Her relationship wiht him was unstable and unsustainable. Yours is none of those.

Please consider using the MB program. It really does work and you need professional, qualified help.

2cents, Harley would tell you that your recovery is not complete if you feel this way this far out. That is NOT normal! Go check this out and listen to the links.

Recovery is not complete

I'll stop typing after this but what happened to R takes a good two yrs (not that two yrs is a drop deadline) minimum?

i think, bv, even though it has been two years, they have not been working full steam towards recovery during this time. the first 8 months don't count at all, because he was still an active wayward.

2cents, can you please answer the questions about UA time and JC? have you guys been working the program, or just trying to get by on your own?

It does take 2 years, but she should not be in this much pain this far out. And I can see why that is. She should be on the backside of the pain by now, working out the kinks in their recovery. They don't have a plan and she was essentially in a prolonged Plan A that caused her to experience PTSD.

thank you for all these thoughts so far, and I can't wait to listen to the radio segments (don't have audio at the moment). I have actually never listened to the radio clips and it will be wonderful to have some new material - I have read the articles and Q and A on affairs to the point that I can probably recite them

I am wondering if MelodyLane has a point about 3-4 weeks being a cut off for women for my case. I think what is haunting me is everything in the diaries that I read and the things I saw and the things he has said to me (when he was being a jerk). Now its too late to take all of it out of my head but if there was a pill that would make me forget I might actually take it.
I am not kidding that there was probably a book's worth of feelings in his diaries all going on and on and ON about OW. Unfortunately I read it all. So its like I feel like I was living inside his head and KNOWING how he felt makes this such a nightmare. There were even places where he compared us physically (her being the clear winner). Now how does a woman ever get over that?

Sometimes, when I feel that I can't move past this, I feel like I am the one with a problem. He spends time with me, bends over backwards to meet my needs, can't wait to come home to me and so on and on. So now, aside of dealing with haunting memories of the past, I am dealing with feeling like a failure. Because it seems that he is ready to move on and has taken every step to, while I am stuck in the past.

That is why I have started wondering if there is truly too much damage at some point. Even though things are wonderful now... I feel like my true happiness with him has been robbed.
Some days I don't think about it. But most days... I do.

ooh boy, this is another huge problem. Every time you bring it up, you make yourself and him miserable. Don't talk about it again. This will keep you resentful for years if you do this and it will drive a wedge between you and your husband.

well, 2cents, there are situations where there IS too much damage, and every BS has the right to pull the plug, if that's where you are.

however, if your WH is repentant, i would encourage you to give MB recovery a try. would you be willing to do the online programme or coach with the harleys?

nonononoo, we can help you get through this. A huge first step will be to stop talking about it. That is keeping you triggered. When you think about it, you keep it front of mind longer when you SPEAK about it.

Do you have the book SAA? Are you following the MB program?

We actually have been following MB. I wasn't the one that asked him to send a no contact letter because I felt that I needed to know that it was him who wanted to get rid of her and not me forcing him to. So this was initiated by him. He threw her out of his head. I wish he could throw her out of mine.

The 8 or so months after he came back, contact between them was minimal, but I caught him looking at pictures of her, he also wrote into his diary some of that time (once again on how hot sex with her had been and so on).
But I think it took an event where he actually REALIZED the pain he was causing me and then he just did an overnight switch.

His JC is obviously that he gave up all ties with her, we moved, he deleted all her pictures and is basically wiling to keep depositing into my bank until I don't think about her (or them together) anymore. He told me he thinks back and finds thoughts of them together revolting (I think that's probably partly a white lie to make me feel better, but truly the damage there is already done).

I can't get over many things. Like he bought me some lingerie that I found a little too degrading and refused to wear. I later found pictures on his computer of her wearing this lingerie!!! Makes me cry just to think about it.
I won't even recount the absolutely awful and traumatic things for me with regards to this affair.

But some days I just hate him. Even with the changed man he is now. I hold it back in order to avoid love busters. But then I feel like its unfair that he does this, and then ends up moving past it and forgiven, while "I'm" the one who lives on suffering for his mistakes.
Some days.. I feel like the only truly justified punishment for him will be for me to simply leave, because he doesn't deserve me after all he did to me.
Other days I try to believe we will eventually recover and focus on the wonderful relationship we have now (unlike anything we had before).
its a love-hate relationship I guess.
He is happy. I'm still suffering.

I agree which is why I said her feelings are normal at this point.

I actually stopped talking about it, probably 6 months ago - to him. Because I could see the damage it was causing. But honestly, sometimes it was just me needing to vent the steam that is all still inside. I wouldn't talk about it in a way that would accuse him but rather talk about how I am having a rough time and cannot get past the imagery. Its like I want an alternate reality.
well, he would go quiet or switch subjects or basically not react. So eventually I stopped talking about it. But it hasn't stopped me thinking about it. In fact, many days I start to feel even more resentful because I start to think, how come is it that he is in happy world, nobody even bringing his mistakes up again, while I am the one still feeling this pain and now also being banned from talking about it so having to internalize it.

I feel like I can't share my true feelings with him, which is now developing into another emotional need (to have an outlet for this) that it looks like he can no longer meet because its a love buster.

This is why I've decided to post about it on here. I am desperate to know if there actually *can* be a happy ending.

I find that with time, even with a good relationship, I often fantasize about leaving. Its almost as if... I can't get over the fact that he gets to get away with it.

Maybe I'm the one with the problem.
Or maybe there is such a thing as a little too much damage. I have way too many traumatic images/words/and even videos in my head that have been burned into my mind.

Agree about the prolonged Plan A/PTSD. If no Plan has been followed then her feelings are still normal, the marriage limped along, etc. One yr from NC is typical for anger and wtf am I with this guy? so I still see the timeline of her feelings as normal.

My point is that her feelings are this way BECAUSE she has had no plan of recovery. There is something WRONG when a BS feels this way this far out, and that is due to having no plan. Like I said above, recovery is not complete. There is no recovery plan.

Venting keeps us angry, though. It doesn't do the opposite.

How much UA time do you get each week? How effective is he at meeting your emotional needs? Do you know what they are?

We actually spend a LOT of time together. we have no kids, so every single evening and all weekend is usually spent together in activities that have a lot of UA. We talk, we email each other and text each other. We talk about feelings on things, laugh together etc - we've actually built a pretty great friendship. We worked through the sheet and meet each others needs.
But unfortunately, I still resent him.

On the surface it is all great. In fact, he might be shocked to learn that I still feel this vehemently on the past.
But I am haunted by dreams as well as triggers of anything and everything that reminds me of her. Anything that has to do with physically perfect women makes me think of her. Unfortunately the media is full of them. Its like the whole physical perfection thing is so idolized in our world and feels like its always in my face laughing at me, cause it is creating a negative reminder.

Anytime I hear him use phrases that he used in his diary, its a trigger. And many many other such things.

I started wondering if I truly have a problem and will never be able to recover.
I have also felt very alone.

Many women have (very unfortunately) had to live through their husbands affairs. But not so many have seen videos of passionate sex that took place, or read their husbands thoughts (literally) about how incredible this experience was for them and about how they would lie awake at night dreaming about OW, or even make love to their wife and not be able to climax until they thought about OW.
No matter how many love bank points he deposits, I can never tell if he still thinks about her when with me.
it truly has given me a complex.

That's why I feel so much despair. Even though we have followed the program and built a great marriage, I do not feel my feelings and stress decreasing at all. I simply don't talk about them anymore, but they are still raging like the first day.
I don't think about it ALL the time. but enough to make me miserable.

Maybe...idk

My exWH was a serial cheater which is why I'm divorced so that does not fit your situation. A#1...I found out hurtful details but NOTHING in black and white like I had with A#2. Seeing and reading the garbage from WH to OW2 was very, very different **to me** and all the more damaging.

Sorry for your pain twocents.

black raven, I haven't read your story, but did you try to work things out and then basically find out that you couldn't handle the resentment, or did you just decide to call it quits right off the bat?

What hurts is that seeing the relationship we have now, I keep wishing that we had built it before A ever happened and almost feel like its a little too late now.

And seriously, some things burned into a woman's mind cause create big permanent damage. It is CRAZY what some of these wonderful husbands of ours a perfectly capable of feeling (and doing) behind our backs.

Would you say you have created a romantic marriage, though?

What do you do in your UA time?

Okay,
I will pipe in and say....diaries and the comments in it.....not that unusual. So, know that.
Also, the PTSD, common. You are not alone in the breadth of your experience.

Being betrayed sucks.

Trying to survive it sucks.

Trying to recover is the toughest thing of all. It takes steely resolve and only you can decide if you will put the effort into it without a guarantee.

What you are going through, others have gone through. Not all others who have been betrayed, but many, many, many.

How do you want the rest of your life to be?

On Dday#1, I told my WH to get out, Plan D/FU. I already had a lot of resentment towards him so his A was adding insult to injury. Exposure, WH chucked OW under a bus, huge personal and professional fallout. I did not shield my WH from any consequences...in fact I ran him over quite a bit myself. Decided to attempt R (kids being a giant factor). There was trickle truth of about three months until what I consider Recovery. Then I found MB.

Dday#2 w/ a different OW, really???? I was not interested in Recovery. Many things going on during that time and D was not filed right away. We moved away from the affair state and he wanted to try and win me back...but that did not go well and it re-affirmed my decision to go with Plan D.

Some of the things I read from A#2 are seared into my brain and I don't see myself forgiving him for them anytime soon...if ever.

That reminds me, b_r, did you post about DDay#2 here? I remember you were gone for a long time, or at least on SAA.

No I did not post about Dday#2. My WH posted briefly. I was gone doing Plan WTH/D/WTH?

twocents, I don't want to hijack your thread. Whether you want to try MB/R or D both are difficult and suck along the way. How long were you married before this affair started?

OK I have a question here. What about Radical Honesty in this instance? Shouldn't two cents come clean with her FWH and tell him how she feels. Shouldn't she point out EXACTLY what triggers her including words and phrases from the diary. I don't know what would help with the seeing models part. But isn't she obviously decieving FWH by pretending they have a great marriage when she is on the verge of walking away?

Twocents are you doing any individual counselling?

How radically honest is he? Has he answered all your questions? You refer to feeling like he's lying to you a lot...a main exception to the "don't talk about the affair advice" is if you haven't had all your questions answered honestly and fully. If he is sugar coating his emotional involvement with OW it is not to protect YOU who is obviously still in pain, but to protect him. Therefore it does not fit with just compensation.

Also, are all the momentos of his affair gone?

And who have you exposed the affair to?

Finally, given the sexual curiosity your WH felt compelled to act out...where did that come from...pornography? Was/is that a problem? Also, since the Internet was used to facilitate his affair, do you have sufficient EPs in place that you don't feel vulnerable to a repeat? A last finally, since he obviously did not respect your comfort with sexual experimentation, have you been able to implement POJA or are you left feeling like the next time you don't give him what he wants he'll just go elsewhere? (and be careful letting your guard down to keep the peace...there have been women roped into swinging to please WHs.)

She can bring up triggers and discuss how they need to be removed, but she shouldn't be talking about her feelings about the affair. That makes the problem worse. And she shouldn't deceive her husband, of course. No one asked her to pretend like she has a great marriage. WE asked her to take steps to achieve a great marriage.

2cents, I know you mentioned that you have stopped talking about, but I found this quote where Harley mentions this issue to a BW: [who has PTSD, by the way!]

"Stop talking to each other about your husband's affair, and start learning to avoid disrespectful judgments and angry outbursts. It makes it harder to put the past behind you when you talk about it. You bring the past into the present and relive the tragedy whenever it's discussed."

lots to answer here..

There was no exposure really. Something I regret. Some people knew about it (people we don't associate with anymore) but not our families and such. Families are far away and we aren't very close. I delayed telling people until i was going to be certain it was truly over between us, but then he came back and then I didn't want anyone to know of these horrible things in my marriage. Wrong, I know.
It would be so strange though, 2 years later to suddenly reveal all of this to everyone we know, when it is already in the past, no?

yes, we've built a romantic marriage. Not just good friends but great sex and intimacy. Unfortunately even with all of that, sometimes I feel stressed and unable to cope with thoughts of what happened.

Yes, I don't feel great about not talking about these feelings to him and actually WANT to, but how can I when they directly revolve around the A that I should not talk about.

we were married for about a year before A. I'm still relatively young (not 30 yet). I want to have kids one day and be married and happy. Sometimes I think our foundation is all screwed already, even though I do love him and we do have a great relationship now. But I think sometimes, we have all this time together now - kids will be a BIG responsibility and what if he strays again? I don't think I'd be able to stomach it.

Yes, I do realize that D will be just as hard. There are times thought that I still wonder if its the better option and a better chance at happiness where I might find a husband one day whom I do not look at and see visuals of him going at it with another woman. i do wonder that even with the rebound we've had, if I deserve better and to find a way to move on while I am still young and we are not tied with children yet. I would have had them by now, but A threw a spin on everything and now I don't fully trust my life with him anymore. Yes, he has been doing everything to make things great now. I can't think of a single thing he could be doing better (short of inventing a time machine to undo the past). There are days I think we can make it and be happy. Other times though, I still feel rage and want to yell at him to just go and live with his mistakes and that I want to move on and find someone in life who will never ever do this to me.

Less than a yr of marriage before cheating (and five yrs of it too) with no kids...I tell people to walk away. That two yrs later you are still plagued with vivid memories from SEEING their sex acts (most BSs do not have to live with that) and reading his words...I would walk. You are young. *I* would not have stayed.

I would expose to your family for support no matter what you decide. It is not your burden to carry.

2cents,

I'm so sorry for your pain.

Married a short while before the adultery started, no kids---Dr. Harley might be asking you your logic for staying. He understands and supports divorcing a spouse for adultery, because it's the most painful thing he could have done to you. BUT if you want recovery, then MB has the best path to that journey.

People stay in their marriages post-adultery for lots of reasons: children and long history are just a couple of those reasons. Some couples own property and/or business(es) together, which makes divorce more complicated. And so on....

Do you think you can give this two full years following moving into recovery? If your husband can give you Just Compensation and you end up with a marriage that is better than ever, with all Extraordinary Precautions instituted, fully transparent life, so that adultery can never happen again, would it be worth staying?

It would be best to delay having children until your H demonstrates that he is safe, that he is in love with you and meeting your emotional needs very well, avoiding love busters.

One of those extraordinary precautions should be Internet access only when you are present. You can do that at home, but at work, it's out of your range. Maybe a keylogger at work, if company security doesn't prohibit.

If you decide to keep working on recovery, give yourself time--a full two years. People with a lot to get over can take even longer, up to five years.

You already know about avoiding talking about the affair, because talking about it brings the horror of the past into the present and is terribly depressing.

Do you have other enjoyable, engrossing activities you can work on when the mind movies start? Recovering would require you to find a way to deflect thinking about it. The thoughts will come into your mind, but you will need to find a way to avoid dwelling on it, if you want to recover.

Have you and your H completed the Marital Problems Analysis ?

**edit**



Many couples rocked by infidelity choose to reconcile because children are involved. You have no children, so your husband chose you for you alone, because what he had with the other woman was one-dimensional. His relationship with you is so much richer and deeper, meaning you blow her away on so many levels including physical intimacy.

**edit**

I hope others can give you concrete advice on how to deal with them, but know you are much more woman than the OW and your husband's choice backs that up!

Posters on this board need to be careful when they contradict Dr Harley's professional advice. What is troubling her is the affair, not the fact that she read a diary. It would be more troubling if she didn't know the facts about the affair. Dr Harley is adamant that the spouse know everything about the affair because not knowing is more harmful. We have scads of cases here where BS's stay stuck for years because facts have been withheld from them. Illusions do not make people happy or secure, they simply cause them to make poor decisions because they are ill equipped with the facts.

here

I think being unable to talk about one's gripping pain with one's spouse is a sure resentment builder. Especially if the hurting spouse already feels deeply inadequate.

There must be a way for 2Cents to release and express her pain/grief without being *punished* by her husband. I am of the opinion that the spouse without PTSD needs to step up to the plate, and make the effort to comfort their hurting spouse.

A reminder to posters to help this poster find solutions using Marriage Builders concepts. Posting other resources that are not endorsed by Dr. Harley is against our TOS.

Thank you

If there are no children and you are not even 30 years old, then I would recommend Plan D. Adultery after 1 year, for 5 years. That's 5/6 years of your marriage.

And this "particular act"? Since it is a sex act that you are unwilling to participate in, and one that he is apparently willing to go outside the marriage to meet for FIVE years, I have a very hard time believing that he will not seek out additional partners in the future to fulfill it. It sounds as if he feels entitled to get this particular act met outside of marriage if his wife is unwilling.

I agree he needs to step up to the plate and comfort her. The Harley quote I posted above was a post Dr Harley made to a board member that HAS PTSD. [you know her] Talking about her feelings and the affair kept her in a negative feedback loop for years. But once Dr Harley persuaded her to stop it, she started getting better in leaps and bounds. Instead of building resentment, it actually lessened it because talking about it kept her perpetually triggered. It also pushed her husband away at a time when she needed him most.

I did not realize she was this young and had been married such a short amount of time. Dr Harley would agree that she should consider leaving the marriage. There are no practical reasons to stay.

This is a serious marital problem that needs to be POJA'd until you discover a solution where both spouses are happy. Not being able to mention one's PTSD pain hardly falls under "enthusiastic agreement".

This is such a major POJA situation. What we forum members *think* you ought to do is less important than a solution you and H work on together.

Question: (please answer)
Have you and H ever successfully POJA'd a solution to any dilemma?

Here is Dr H's post to our friend who has PTSD over on the private forum:

Did I miss where 2Cents wrote she is is having angry outbursts?

No, I don't think she is. The point of the quote that discussing the problems of the past brings it into the present. Avoiding that helps her recover FASTER.

How much (if any) Marriage Builders material had H familiarized himself with?



The only real "cure" for wiping out these memories completely is if you develop end stage dementia. Never wish for that. Look for ways to live with the memories and mitigate the pain.




Stop making the comparison yourself. You do have some control over your own habit of making comparisons. Your ability to stop these thoughts will improve the more you make the effort to stop your negative self talk. Recognize the reality that your thoughts are creating your inner reality. Decide on a "mantra" to repeat when you find yourself jumping back into that bottomless pit.





Are you a failure? I doubt it. That feeling comes from your habitual comparison-making.
More importantly, have you ever discussed this entire situation with your physician? All of it. The 5 year affair. The diary. Your dreams. Your PTSD. ???? Have you ever addressed possible anxious/depressive symptoms with a physician?




I do not know yet. Please respond to my questions. I think there are still *things* to try.

Dr. Harley says resentment is the last thing to disappear.

In our counselling with SH, he told me that I SHOULD be sharing my resentful thoughts with my WH, and that I SHOULD be telling my WH what my triggers are, and when I am experiencing them. Otherwise, my WH will not understand my state of mind, and be bewildered by my withdrawn attitude. However, my sharing with my WH should be in a positive, partner-based manner, which provides my WH with information about me and how he can aid my recovery. Here is an example:

WH: How are you feeling?
Me: I am a little sad. I am triggering because tomorrow is my birthday, and when I thought about my birthdays in the past two years, we were not together. I was sad to think you would choose not to be with me then.
WH: But I am with going to be with you this time!
Me: Yes, and I am happy about that.
WH: You should stop thinking about the past! Look to the future...
Me: I am eager to make happy memories with you about this event, starting with this birthday. This will help me overcome the trigger.

In this exchange, I am expressing my sadness, and the fact that I am triggering. I am NOT blaming WH, nor getting angry or resentful. I am giving my WH a clue about my state of mind, and reinforcing our plan of action to overcome it. I am staying in partnership w/ my WH, not becoming adversarial.

Have you considered counselling w/ Steve, 2 cents?

The more *severe* the damage, the longer the resentment lingers. That's what Dr. Harley writes. The more there is to resent, the more resentment there is.

I think it is important for you to realize that this experience has profoundly changed you. If you decide to give up on this marriage tomorrow, the pain and PTSD will not diminish. You will need to develop a method of minimizing your PTSD with or without your marriage.

In other words, divorce is not a sure-fire cure for erasing painful memories.

Please, I urge you to seek a professional's opinion about your mental/emotional health.

I found another exchange between Dr Harley and our friend with PTSD on the private forum that focuses on bringing up the past. I want to emphasize that once she finally took his advice and stopped talking about it, her improvement was quite dramatic. I used this same method when it came to overcoming my own personal tragedies from 1999-2000. Once I stopped talking about it, and stopped surrounding myself with triggers, the pain faded much faster so I do believe this is the correct way to handle trauma.



here

Good question.It is my opinion that your H should be the one counseling with a MB person (Steve or anyone). With the goal of H discovering ways to help YOU release most of the resentments he caused. Your H needs to learn better MB-style tools to lovingly handle the times when you are in pain.

Making actual *just compensation* for his offense towards the marriage is necessary for a reduction of resentment. Especially in situations like this.

That is my (very strong) opinion.

Why Can't We Just Forgive And Forget? <~~~ Link to MB site basic concept. The concept of *just compensation* is addressed.

IMO .... The *just compensation* that would really help you the most is, your H enthusiastically boards the MARRIAGE BUILDERS train and embraces the program for all he's worth.

Has he done this?
If yes, tell us about his MB efforts.
If not, why not?

From your first post:


This is totally within your power to stop.
What have you tried so far?

Strongly agree. And I would like to see an answer to Pep's two questions: have you and your H ever POJA'ed anything, and how much MB has your husband gotten involved with (reading, radio, etc.)?

Dr. Harley has stated that it is essential for the husband to get on board with treating his wife thoughtfully. Marriage Builders is a set of guidelines for doing that. Without him doing this (whether he was wayward or not, whether she was wayward or not), the relationship is going to be lousy and depressing to the wife, and it is certainly not going to be able to recover from an affair.

I'm seeing posts on this thread about him punishing her when she brings up the mistakes of the past. In order to recover, she needs to not bring up the mistakes of the past, but if she breaks a rule, HE MUST NOT LOVE BUST. Punishment is abuse.

Guess what Dr. Harley tells my coach when I call her with an issue she brings to him? First sentence: "Tell him, 'No Love Busters, markos!'"

Thanks Markos !


Exactly! I think it's not advisable to ask the wife with PTSD to follow MB to the letter without her H being 100% on board as well. If 2Cents follows MB and her H does not, the resentment mountain will grow.

In the case of a former wayward husband who is being thoughtless, not following the policy of joint agreement, not involved in recovery, and punishing his wife if she makes a mistake,

following Marriage Builders to the letter, for her, would mean going to a dark plan B for protection. Dr. Harley would tell a woman in such a case to make plans for a separation.

And she wrote:


Which makes me wonder if H is, or is not following MB recovery. Or, if H is even familiar with MB.

We can't really give her stellar MB advice until we know the answer to that question.

And, 2Cents, the answer is either "yes he is", or, "no he is not".

catching up!!
lots of new food for thought here.

first, yes H is following MB, but mainly by going by the books. We bought his needs her needs, love busters and surviving an affair.
I try to meet his needs and he tries to meet mine.
We've tried to follow POJAed on everything - from big things like buying a house to small things like what we have for dinner. We spend lots of time together, whether talking, making dinner together etc.
I feel like overall he is doing the right things, which is why sometimes I feel like the problem is me. Which makes it doubly hard. Part of this is a deep anger and resentment that I deserve better. As I mentioned, I was a little traumatized by an affair in my own parents marriage (which btw resulted in a half sibling) and its like I swore to myself that I would never and could never live and build my life with anyone who cheated on me.
Now its happened to me and in the worst way.
We've been married for 8 years now and frankly 6 of those years I have happy memories. Except now I look back on them and they are ruined with knowing that he was with OW for the majority of the time. They feel as if they were an illusion where I was living in a bubble that wasn't real.

I appreciate the point that he chose me over her in the end and that it obviously wasn't because we had children or any other such ties. Very true. Which is of course the reason I stayed with him too, because we fell in love and this love is really what keeps things going.
But I must admit, that even so, I keep wondering if I should allow myself to move on from something that might just forever haunt me and maybe find love again one day with someone with whom I would not have this kind of history and start with MB right off the bat. I want to look at the father of my children and not see him in the arms of another woman.
I fully believe in second chances. Maybe H can learn from his mistakes and find someone later to whom he will never do such a thing.

I love him and truly, our relationship has been good, but there are times I still feel that the whole fact that I'm even with him right now is unnatural. That maybe I was too eager to forgive him and compromised my own values and standards for doing so.
Our relationship has become 100% better, but inside something in my is simply rotting day by day. I don't know if there is a cure for this poison. And the question I face right now is will I heal better, by admitting that I can't heal from this and giving us both a second chance with someone else in our future where we would both learn from this, and do this right the next time.

Have you considered calling the radio program? That might help you get specific info.

You do raise an interesting side point about your parents' marriage and your previous conviction about how you would respond to infidelity. I'm in a similar boat in that my Dad was wayward and left my mom, sister, and myself for his affair partner, who he later married (eventually she cheated on him). I've thought a lot about whether I've invited affairs into my marriage by staying in a renters relationship unknowingly. Have you read about Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders? It's a really helpful book on how relationships can be wrong from the start. Anyways, I've accepted a lot of responsibility for not having higher standards to begin with there's also the little theory that we can manifest into reality the things we most think about, even if it's a negative thing. So being so committed to not having infidelity in our marriages, could you and I have unconsciously brought it into being? Anyways...just a side thought. But I will say that if I were in your shoes, I would never try to recover that marriage. Too me, the damage would be too much if there were no kids, and the risk too great to bring kids into.

Also FWIW, I am about 90% ready to get my tubes tied, just so there's absolutely no chance that another child of mine could risk a broken home. I'm also seriously considering no relationships until my youngest is out of the house. Because if you think it's hard to experience it yourself, watching your children have to deal with a wayward parent/step-parent is 100 x worse.

hi again 2cents. have you given some thought to working with the harleys to see if you can overcome your resentment? or are you leaning towards D?

after reading the rest of your thread, with no children, and an a that lasted nearly as long as your M, and considering that you're <30, i do not see why you wouldn't seriously consider plan d. even if things are good now, there is a lot less stress in your M life than there will be in the future with kids, mortgage, bills, etc.

what do you think?

I have thought about counseling ... but I realize that counseling will be in effort to save my marriage, which I somehow am not so sure is what I will ultimately lean towards.
I think tools to help me overcome resentment will be great, but I often think that I will overcome the resentment a lot faster if I no longer have to share and build my life with the person that caused all this resentment, even if he is a changed man now.

I do worry about kids - as others have said, it introduces a huge responsibility in life and will strain our marriage down the line. I just need to think about whether this is ultimately the person I wish to spend life with. I love him... but there are days that I hate him too and as black raven said, certain things feel seared into my mind permanently.

I am interested to hear what conditions began the A and if those conditions have been eliminated?

It sounds very sexual in nature and she sounds very insecure and porn-star-esque - how did they meet? Did it begin as a PA or EA?

Was porn use a factor in his A? Poor boundaries around women?

You may feel much better if those gaps are plugged up..

indiegirl, it started as an EA. He was still working on his degree at the time and met her online and later found they take classes at the same college and that she lives close. I don't know that she is insecure or anything - she goes for what she wants (including my husband). As I mentioned, she was very attractive and I'm sure very confident as a result. He said she wanted to explore the same things he did.
Granted, in her favor, he did not tell her (right away) that he was married. He lied to her too, and then confessed later which obviously didn't go well when she found out but I guess she was sucked in and the affair continued. I think she started seeing other people but they became addicted to each other.

I absolutely believe he had poor boundaries to say the least.
To be frank, I don't know that my gaps will ever be closed. I do think that MB is a wonderful program and we have come so far, but the stress and trauma that I feel I have experienced is not letting up very easily. It has been a comfort to come to these boards and at least see how I'm not alone, even though of course everyone's case is very unique.

Sad as it is, more and more I lean towards maybe dissolving this marriage. It scares me to think this, but I think it scares me even more to think that I will be building the rest of my life with someone who started out this way. What if it ever comes back. And by then kids and more may be involved.
And of course, with the history of the affair in my parents marriage, I believe my own experience now brings back the suffering I experienced in the past as well, instead of moving on from it. Maybe that's why I'm so sensitive to this having ever happened and am unable to be as healed as I maybe should have been by now.

Maybe you should consider individual counseling.
To determine what you want to do with your life

How goes it two cents? Are you still unsure whether or not you want to continue in the marriage?

Oh you dear sweet lady. Can I give you my "two cents"? (*.~) No, do not divorce. Your husband was an immature man who did put too much emphasis on sex. You are right in saying the media makes women look �perfect� and it makes men think they need hot sex with a hot woman. Your husband had that. But was he fulfilled & content as a result? NO! B/c the missing element was love among other things. Your visuals you hold from his diaries and the videos are going to have to be viewed by you as in the past, a past your husband had that was not fulfilling. View it as it was, as he did, AN ACT, sex without love. Think about this: A woman is raised very differently than a man. (very double standard might I add but think abut this�) A female is raised moreso to be moral, to not be a slut, to save herself, to not have a lot of sex, to protect her �cherry�. Do you hear such things being taught to MEN/BOYS?! NO! lol Men are raised wrongly and oppositely. To be a stud, have sex, multiple partners, and they are confused and discontent creatures as a result! Sex is sex to such a man. Your husband was such a man. Your husband was along the way �molded� into wrong thinking which he found out after his selfishness relegated. But now, you can start over with this man. (and have been and sounds like a good thing you got going) Put the images and things you read into chapter 3 and move on to chapter 4. He does not want that life or that woman. You have to put aside your pride dear woman. Put aside your pride and stubborness. In finale, if a man LOVES a woman, he will have the best sex possible, a sex life that will far outweigh what you saw in that video!!! If a man loves a woman, she will be more beautiful physically to him than any hot woman in the media!

2cents, I have the same problem you do. How do we ever overcome the sexual intensity of the affair?

IP,

How do we ever overcome the sexual intensity of the affair?

Tough question, with MB and effort my W accepts me as a husband again and as a father, companion, handyman, massage person, provider, protector, emotional support, but my W has not really accepted me back as a lover like I was before her A. And that has been for 20+ years.

I was never looking for a porno actress either, just someone who likes kissing and initiates once a month or something.

To be fair it could just be that her guilt from the A turned into a habit.

God Bless
Gamma