Here's my story:

My husband and I got married in 2005 when we were 20 and 23 years old. We had our first (and only) child in 2010.

We had our awesome times, and were best friends, but mixed in with that was depression on my end. I wouldn't do anything around the house, he did it all (with the rare exception). I didn't like being left alone and felt abandoned. I was downright mean to him, called him fat, ugly, told him to leave and never come back. I was physically abusive. I brought up things of the past (nothing too bad, he only had one other gf, he kissed another girl when we were dating, and that was it). I was incredibly jealous. I also hated myself. I cried almost daily. I would NEVER apologize for anything, and I always manipulated him into apologizing and acting like it was his fault. I'm sure there were more things that I cannot think of. There were good, too. We went away on vacations, we skipped, we went to parks a lot, we did all of our shopping together, we went to see bands together quite frequently, we hung out together. Our sex life gradually diminished into nothing.

I gradually stopped the physical abuse, gradually stopped the jealousy, but the emotional abuse went on.

We have a bad situation money speaking, so we are (me now) living in a relative's basement.

Recently (before he left), we were trying to have another baby, and he felt that I was just having sex for that reason, when it actually wasn't. I've been working on love shortly before that, so I was just filled with love and wanting to express it. The week or few prior to him leaving, he would leave at night to go think and cry (b/c he had held back emotion for years, because I would pretty much always find a way to turn it into being about me). He has had his anger problems, and all, but this isn't about his issues. He's really a great guy. Before he left, he also started working more and more in order to get us out of this situation (his job is relatively new to him, and it's commissions, and he's REALLY good at it). The day he left, we were kissing, and it was good. Then after he was asleep, I woke him up to 'try', and I worded it that way! Instead of saying I want to show love or w/e, which was the truth, I used baby-making as an excuse to wake him up, thinking that would make him more apt to do it for some reason. He left and said he's done.

The first few days were hard and he didn't see us at all, then on Monday (he left saturday night), he wanted to see our daughter. He picked her up and was super angry at me. Wednesday, we had to take our daughter to an activity, so we brought her there separately, and went home together. He was still done. Thursday, I went out with a friend, and he picked me and my daughter up, and we ate dinner at the friend's house. He told me that he is willing to come to dinner every day from 5-7, no longer. That was a great improvement!

Dinner on Friday was great. We cooked together (previously, he had done all of the cooking), and ate and had a good time. Saturday, he brought me to a different state to stay with his family for a week as he came back and went to work. We had a great trip, talked about the future TOGETHER, etc. Then, the next day when we talked, he said that he's done. He said he was thinking on the way back, and he is done with us.

Now I'm back in our state, in the basement. Yesterday, we had dinner together with our daughter. We cooked together, and I had my moments of crying (I hadn't seen him for a week, so it was hard again), he had his moments of being cold. We also smiled, hugged, laughed. He's not wearing his wedding ring, but he said he loves me when he left. He had said that he is confused, and doesn't think he could ever be with me because of the way I treated him. He says I never loved him, etc. He doesn't understand why I did ANYTHING I did. I've tried explaining, but I don't think he needs any more explanations.

Today, he messaged me saying he's done.

We had dreams together. This job was a means to reach them, a means to get out of debt, etc. We wanted to raise our daughter together. We had so many dreams, and we did have fun together. I honestly thought that I did show him love. I always put myself last when it came to buying things, I would wear pants with a hole in them and only have one pair, and go out and buy him new clothes (not b/c he asked, but b/c I wanted to), I would buy him presents, we would spend most of our money on our daughter. To me, that was love.

(I was abused as a child, mainly emotionally and mentally, but also a bit of physical)

Now, I'm lost.

There's no cheating.. I could go any time and find him exactly where he says. His office is all men, he sleeps in his boss' house or his office, etc. He's not hiding anything. He doesn't say he loves me but isn't in love. He doesn't say anything, and then eventually, if he's doing well, he will say he loves me.

He was willing to do the Emotional Needs Questionaire the other day, but was too busy, and now he's not willing to do it. He said I shouldn't buy the love busters book, b/c he's done.

He's a very patient man, but when he's done with something, he's done. He also used to run away from things frequently- his family, jobs, things that stressed him out TOO much. He would go back to his family eventually, but he feels this is different b/c I was supposed to be the one person that loved him and chose to love him.

What do you guys think I should do? I am beginning to go for counselling, and am working on myself. I am already less angry and more loving.

In the past, we travelled, slept in a car, had a lot of fun doing that. If money was tight and we had no place to live, that's what we would do. If he was running from something, that's what he would want to do. I went along with him, and we had a great time.

Welcome to Marriagebuilders.

It does sound a great deal like cheating. I realise you say you can find him wherever he says he is going to be, but that doesn't really mean anything I am afraid. Affairs can be conducted online and over the phone; those affairs sometimes have the strongest hold. Workplace affairs are also very common

The signs are so strong (moodiness, anger, blame, separation) that I would urge you to snoop on a much larger scale. Can you put spyware on his phone/computer? Can you get a PI to follow him at a time when your H knows you will not be able to?

I do hear you when you say you have been guilty of lovebusters and abusive tactics. However when was the last time this really happened though? It sounds like you haven't done any of this for a very long time.

Leaving because you woke him up and asked to try is just ridiculous. I would dig deeper.



No longer, huh? A 7pm cut off gives him an excuse, such as working late, before spending evening time with someone else. Either in person or online. That's the time I would have him watched.

Do you understand Plan A?

No girls work in the office, I know for a FACT that there is no cheating. Like I said, he's working extremely long hours to try to get us out of this situation. If things go well at our scheduled daily dinners, he stays late. There is no strict time he has to leave, it's more for his mind.

He doesn't have Facebook or anything like that.

My emotional abuse continued until he left, the physical abuse stopped a while ago.


I understand Plan A, but there is no cheating involved.. just years of me treating my husband like a doormat, and him finally standing up for himself. As far is that is concerned, I respect him greatly.

From my original post: "I gradually stopped the physical abuse, gradually stopped the jealousy, but the emotional abuse went on." meaning, the emotional abuse CONTINUED.

Our sex life was always really bad, and I usually had some type of excuse, which is why me asking for that was his final straw before he left.

Then the response is simple. No one would sleep in the office if they had a willing, calm and loving partner at home. They would at least come home as roomates until they find somewhere else. Just keep offering a calm loving face and a place for him at home if that is the case.

However I am not convinced. He chose to use a very ridiculous reason for leaving and that is the hallmark of the cheater. You slammed the door too hard! I am going! i can't stay in the same house as someone who uses the wrong word for lovemaking!"

If he had left for reasons of abuse, he would have simply asked you stop it. Or said he was coming home when you stop it. That isn't so though is it? He is 'done'. But he does not stay done long, the other hallmark of hte cheater is they cannot stay decided on which woman they want.

When he is 'undone' he has a 7pm curfew because he has to be somewhere else.

Dr H tends to make an enjoyable sex life the man's responsibility. If a woman does not feel like having sex she most certanly should not have sex. The usual advice from Dr H is for the man to provide her with a high level of affection and romance until her sexual feelings return.

Unwilling sex helps no one and a lack of sex is certainly no reason to abandon a spouse.

he had told me in the past that my actions were hurting him, that I was killing him. He said I'm difficult to live with, etc. But, I would always manage to get him to stay, and not only to stay, but to APOLOGIZE! He wanted us to go for counselling years ago, and i wouldn't. I thought we could fix it on our own, and I was also in denial that it was that bad.

He is very patient until something goes on for a long time, and then he's done, and it's not just with this. He had a history of doing that with his family, with work, etc. He would always come back after a certain amount of time, but this action isn't new for him, it just is new for him to give up on the relationship. He got tired of always being the one to hold us together, to always try, when I wouldn't.

As far as work, he got this job in September, and it's commissions, so before he left, we both agreed that he would work as much as he could, so we could be out on our own. His hours just got super extreme during the time he left, as he has nothing to do but work, he feels. I am also in contact with his family, and they're a huge family, and most are on the side of our marriage being fixed.

He was always very romantic, I was just depressed and had no self-esteem, so I never wanted it. It wasn't like we had it, and it left. There never was a good sex-life. He was always SUPER romantic, and I turned him down very frequently. Not only did I turn him down, but I would be mean about it.

Ok, if the entire situation lies on your head then it is entirely within your power to change it.

Let me see if I have this clear-

You were physically abusive
You were emotionally abusive
When you wanted sex, you referred to it as trying to make a baby

LG,

Even given your marital history, it really isn't that common for a husband to walk away from a marriage without some extenuating external circumstance.

Ruling out a friendly female ear he may have turned to is paramount to making sure your efforts to restore your marriage don't fall flat.


Also; are you doing anything to treat your depression? If you have a history of chronic depression, and you aren't treating it properly, it will be hard for him to create romantic love with you - which will help in your willingness to have SF with him.

kilted thrower: to the first 2, yes, although I stopped the physical abuse. To the 3rd question, our sex life wasn't good in the past, but i didn't think of it as 'trying'. There was one time I called it that, even though I didn't actually think of it that way, and that was the time he left. I know he didn't leave because of that, but it was sort of the final straw.

HoldHerHand: again, I know for certain about the female friend thing, and I wouldn't spy on him or do any of that anyway (he actually just got a futon for his office).
-As for treating my depression, yes, I am beginning to. I am going to counselling (mostly for my abuse thing, and also for dealing with the abuse I had growing up), and going to treat it other ways as well.

I do believe a lot of it is in my hands, but I don't know what to do. He's emotionally distant right now, and I don't want to push him away. No touching, he doesn't say he loves me, etc. (we see eachother almost every day for a bit, b/c we have a daughter whom he adores).

He reads this, but doesn't post.

I encourage you to visit an attorney.
You need to file for child support

JediKnight, thanks but no thanks:
1- He gives money.
2- I'm wanting to work the marriage out, not end it.

Visiting an attorney doesnt mean that you dont want to save your marriage.
It means that you are seeking legal protection.

There were 5 days that we had no contact at all. He didn't come around, call, or anything.

Prior to that, he had been coming around for some dinners, and 2 hours per day for our daughter.

We went shopping together for our daughter's bday (without her), and had a good time, even went to a cafe we love.

We travelled to where his family lives for our daughter's bday party, and the trip was good. I refrained from love busters for the most part (possibly completely).

After we got back, he dropped us off and I said I had a good time. He didn't respond, so I texted him telling him that he can be honest with me if he didn't. He said he did, "...just as friends". I was fine with that, because it meant we could work on things. Later in the day, he thanked me for helping cook, and I said I loved doing it together and that we work well together...

That day, no dinner (we had already discussed that he wouldn't be coming). The next day, no communication, and no dinner. He communicated to say no dinner, and when I asked why, he said he doesn't want to.

Next day, our daughter has dance class. Usually, he will drop us off at the house afterwards (we only have one car), but he didn't want to do it this time, so my daughter and I had to get a ride.. and he said we will have to do that every week.

He has cut off contact more and more.

I know the affair thing is big on here, but people use other outlets for their emotions as well, and he's using work. He was never a workaholic, and I think it's fantastic that he's trying to get ahead, make money so our daughter can have a place to live, etc, but I worry about him, also..

Now, with the no-contact (and no discussion of it), I am lost. I want to give him space, because I know it's in his personality to need it, but at the same time, I'm confused as to what he wants or doesn't want.

I want our marriage to be healed. I am doing what I can on my part, but he is so hardened and hurt. He's in the withdrawal stage, and I'm not sure he will come out of it.

Have you ruled out an affair?
Have you seen an attorney?

no attorney. no affair.
the only affair he has is with work, if that makes sense.

Looking back, I see signs that it was going to get to this point, but I didn't see them then, and now I don't know how to reverse it. I'm working on my end of things, but I can't fill his love bank if he has no contact with me.

Have you actually CHECKED to see if he is having an affair? Everything you write indicates he is having an affair and has a new point of comparison. Someone is treating him like a king, which only caused him to become disgusted by you. He is trying to ease himself carefully and gradually out of this marriage.

Why do you think that is?

1- This has happened gradually, and I can see how it happened. I have emptied out his love bank to the point that it is in the red. His texts are all to his good friend (a guy), and that guy is the one he chooses to talk to because he's going through something similar.

2- The affair thing is big on here because a lot of people do have them, and I'm not in denial, I know how this happened. Nothing was sudden. He has gradually lost himself, his heart, everything he cared about. Like I said, he's having an affair with work, an emotional attachment even.

Many times, someone who is cheating will disguise names and #s on their phone. And if he was having an affair at work, you would never know it. You really must find out for sure instead of assuming. You don't even know where he lives.


The reason so many people suspect affairs is because we are almost always right. WE have experience at seeing the signs and you don't. We have better detectors than the person who is actually involved. It is very hard for the person in the situation to be objective. Many people show up on the MB101 forum who are completely clueless that their spouse is really having an affair. All the signs are flashing red in your situation.

I understand that he has fallen out of love because of your lovebusters. But men don't typically leave unless they have another woman lined up. I don't believe for a minute that your husband is spending the nights here and there. He is probably shacked up with a woman.

If he is having an affair, which is very likely, then your marriage is slipping farther and farther away due to your inaction. And NONE of your attempts at making lovebank deposits will make a difference. It will all be a waste of time.

You need to have your husband followed and find out what he is doing.

I agree. Can you afford a PI? You need to rule out an affair.

We lived in a car for a year, I have no doubt that he would live in a car or in his boss/friend's house. He has never had a problem sleeping on floors or in a car, I know that sounds strange to most people, but that was just who we were- sometimes it was fun, other times it wasn't, but we did it a lot.

We would constantly leave places we were living to go travel in the car, or sleep someplace else (usually alternating between my parent's house and his parent's house).

Considering we have been living in my parent's basement, and they act like they hate him, I don't see why he would STAY here. He had no place of refuge. He was originally starting to work more to get us out of this situation, because it's abusive.

I know it's hard to understand our situation, because most of you have houses or apartments. We don't. The office floor is a more welcoming environment than the house I live in, and I would even live there if I didn't have a daughter.

As far as numbers on his phone, he never had a problem letting me go through it, and I knew everyone on there. He has never hidden anything, other than his emotions, which he hid because I made him afraid to show them.

So you aren't going to rule out an affair?

Did you check his online phone records?

His phone is fine- the usual people.

I just found out that it's pretty much my severe depression that pushed him out.. it was too hard to deal with.

I just don't know what I can do to win him back- mainly, to show him the love that he deserves to feel. To show him the respect he deserves. If there is no contact, I don't see how I can fill his love bank.

What about writing Dr. Harley?

Email your questions to Joyce Harley at mbradio@marriagebuilders.com. When your email question is chosen to be answered on the radio show, you will be notified by email directing you to listen to the rebroadcast. If you would like to consider being a caller, include your telephone number. You will be called by us to explain the procedure to you. Every caller will receive a complementary book by Dr. Harley that addresses their question.

thank you

He told me today he has been cheating on me since before he left.

She found out he is married, and they fight about it, from what he says.

He is still seeing her.. i'm 5 hours away right now at his family's house, but when i get back he wants to meet and 'talk'.

He is exposed to certain family members (confusing family situation, where not everybody gets along necessarily), but I'm sure everyone will find out soon.

I don't know if she knows we have a child. I plan on finding out her # tomorrow and letting her know that I am FOR healing in my marriage for my husband, myself, and our beautiful daughter.

I'm sorry for your pain.

Please read these.
Surviving an Affair-Start Here First

You need to expose this affair.

Please read the links I've posted it, especially the Exposure thread.

Tell us who is on your exposure list.

Is she a co-worker?
Is she married?

Am I correct in understanding he is aware that you have posted here and has read your thread?

She ended the relationship with him when she found out he was married. She wants nothing to do with him or his lies. She said he is chasing her, calling her, saying he will get divorced, and he will marry her. She doesn't want that.

I had exposed it to some of his family (brothers, mother, sister).

I texted him with a plan A statement (I'm willing to work with you to create a marriage where both our needs are met. However, you must end your affair.").

He said he told me he's finished. and then he said that he is talking to a lawyer.

I don't think he reads it anymore.

I have always thought this was an affair and told you so early on. Have you spoken to the OW?

yes, and you were right. I'm sorry for not believing.

Yes, I spoke to her.

The things he said about me - true, but blown way out of proportion, even so much as to say that I'm an awful mother (I'm a stay at home mom)

So, what do you suggest I do?

He has been in an affair and out of your home since early February, and you have tried a kind of Plan A without knowing about the affair. Since this discovery, and the details about her dumping him, has he expressed any interest in going back home? Is he willing to try and repair the marriage?

What have the arrangements been for support so far? Does he pay the rent or mortgage and support you and your daughter?

Where is he living, BTW?

I missed this detail about going to the lawyer.

You didn't answer nerlycrazy's question very clearly. Was he reading this thread at one time? If he was, you have no idea whether he is reading it now, and he probably is.

This contradicts some of what you said later this same day. You have said that OW dumped him and that he says that the marriage is finished.

When can you get home to talk to him?

We need to be clear about what is he doing and the status of the affair, or we cannot advise you properly. Is there some reason that your posts are so short and disjointed? Are you posting from a phone? Is it possible for you to give full answers to our questions? It is very hard to advise when you do not give full information.

Who is this OW? Is she someone he met in a bar, or does he work with her? Do you know her name? (Don't tell us here.) By the sound of it she is single, but do you know that for sure? Does she live anywhere near your marital home?

Are his parents supporting you in busting up the affair and putting pressure on your H?

I think the affair actually began in January.

I have just started plan A today (because I didn't find out about the affair until yesterday). Prior to this, I HAVE been working on myself.

We have no contact with each other, so he doesn't see me to see change or anything.

He has expressed NO interest in coming back home or repairing things. He said that he told me he is finished with me. He said that I love misery and want to make him miserable. and he said that he is talking to a lawyer.

Living arrangements- we (now I) live in my parent's basement right now. He gives me money every other week for my daughter and me.

He is living in the office, his car, and his boss' house (I am not sure if his gf knew those details...)

He just texted : "take your self pity and misery and bestow it on another. I am done. We are done. Stop [censored] with me. I don't want to be with you, I don't love you anymore. We're over. You can't [censored] my life up anymore."

Who is she and where did he meet her?

sorry sugarcane:

He had made it seem to me (yesterday) that his affair was not over. But, I found out from HER that it is, that she wants nothing to do with him. They met online, and she lives close to his work. I know her name.

I can get back to my home this weekend, but he doesn't want to talk to me, and he wants nothing to do with me.

Plan A is the expression of the willingness to meet your spouses needs if he commits to reconciliation. You have done that in spades for several weeks. Continuing to chase him will be very unattractive to him and will just wear you down.

I would prepare to go into Plan B AND make sure the affair is exposed to everyone. Expose the affair to the OW's parents, your husbands boss and any other close family members. Obviously the OW did not know he was married, but it is important that her parents know the truth so she is not tempted to take him back.

I would also download the book Surviving an Affair on kindle today and read it so you understand what you are dealing with.

He is probably trying to get her back by convincing her that his "marriage is over." That is why you need to contact her parents yourself and tell them that your husband left you and your child to pursue an affair with their daughter. Tell them he lied to her about her marital status but ask them to use their influence to keep him away so you can try and save your marriage.

That is unlikely to last long. This is why you need to blow up the affair and make sure she can't change her mind.

Does she have a facebook page? I am not suggesting you epxose to her contacts, but oyu need to copy and paste her contacts into a text doc for safekeeping in case the affair starts up again. And your husband is working hard to get it going again!!

okay. How do I go about doing a Plan B?

He is being so incredibly hateful right now through text.

I will expose it.
His family is for the most part on the side of marriage (our marriage).

Go download the book Surviving an Affair and READ UP on Plan B. Read these links:

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2482787#Post2482787

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html

GO READ my exposure thread linked in my signature FIRST.

He just informed me that he was going to try to have a conversation with me when I get back, but that I messed that up (by contacting his OW)

Do you think I should restart the Plan A? (because of the set back)

You should enter Plan B.

If you have not finished exposure, you need to finish it today to all family and friends (and OW family and friends).

I would finish your exposures TODAY before you speak to him. See, his plan is to spin the story like this and you need to get the truth out there NOW so people will support you:

your spouse: "lonelygal has made me miserable for years so I have moved out and am filing for divorce. In the meantime, I met a new friend and lonelygal is going crazy and harassing her and others. She just needs to accept our marriage is over."

TRUTH: he met an OW online, began an affair, and has abandoned his family to pursue his affair. In order to justify his affair, he has exaggerated grievances against his wife.

Do you see the difference? The affair is in a downward spiral and he is striving to save the sinking ship right now. So if you don't act FAST, he will be successful.

You need to use the template in my exposure thread and expose the TRUTH to his family, friends and boss. Then CALL up the OW's parents and tell them all about the affair and ask for their help. That will ruin the future of the affair and make it less likely that she will take him back.

Send this email to friends, family and his boss [and anyone else on his side who might have an influence:

Dear friends and family,

I am writing you this message because you are an important person in the lives of xxxx and I. As some of you know, xxxxx has recently asked me for a separation, which has shattered my heart. To my shock, I am saddened to have discovered that the reason is because he has been carrying on an affair with a woman named named xxxxx xxxxx who resides in xxxxxx. He met her online and the affair began sometime in January according to the OW. She did not know he was married. The purpose of the separation is so that he can carry on his affair without my interference.

I want our marriage to recover from this affair. If you have any influence on my babe, please do what you can to get him to stop and work on the marriage. I want to stay married, but the affair must end.

As our friends and family, I am asking that you use your influence with xxxx to persuade him to end his affair and try to work on our marriage. Our marriage can be salvaged if he would only end the affair. Please support him in doing the right thing. Please support our marriage.

I would so appreciate your support and prayers.

Warmest regards,

Originally Posted by EXPOSRE 101

The Fallout
Expect your spouse to be FURIOUS and to make all manner of threats, �I was going to work on the marriage, now I am not!!� �I cannot trust you� �You have to pack and leave!!� �You have ruined any chance you had!!� Do not let this bother you!! Just imagine that you have taken the crackpipe away from the crack head. Of course they are angry. But it will blow over. Don�t laugh, don�t fight, don't attempt to reason with them, and most of all, don�t be SCARED! Your marriage can survive some temporary anger, it cannot survive an ongoing affair! The madder your WS, the harder you hit the target!

Have you read Exposure 101?

Your WH is saying exactly what we would expect. Don't let him distract you from getting truth out there. He wants to keep his affair a secret because affairs thrive on secrecy. He knows the light of day will kill his chances with OW.

Call up the OW's parents and tell them who you are and the age of your child. Tell them that their daughter has been having an affair with your husband and that he moved out in January to be with her. He lied to her about his marital status.

Ask for their support in ending this affair. You realize their daughter has dumped him but you also know that your H is trying to get her back because he believes it is hopeful.

Let them know there is no future for their DD with your husband because the inlaws know all about the affair and would never allow her into their family. She would be eternally hated by the inlaws and your child for her part in breaking up your marriage.

What is the "setback?"

I agree there is no set back. You were warned this is the typical response of the average wayward. Pay it no mind and carry on.

You won't get a bunch of flowers for busting up his affair. It's a cheap bit of candy but currently his favourite thing!

the set back was that he was going to talk about reconciliation, and then I messaged her.

He had informed a couple select others that he was going to talk with me.

I understand the Plan B, but since this JUST happened, and the anger JUST came out, shouldn't I (or couldn't I) give until next week? I am strong enough..

Anything he SAYS to either you, or to others should be taken with a very large pinch of salt!

He was always dead set on keeping you BOTH. The reconciliation claim was nonsense to make him look like a good guy. Addictions like this don't go away overnight. The only thing that has changed is that now you;ve stood up for yourself, he now needs to knock you back down into control.

If he WAS going to reconcile - gues what he would be doing? Reconciling! You;ve just exposed this claim as a worthless lie to keep you controlled with hope.





You aren't strong. You are in the house of mirrors known as hope. He could tell you anything right now and you would believe him.

You need Plan B and he can figure out if he really wants to reconcile outside of your Plan B on his own two feet.

His 'anger' is laughable. Is he angry at himself for being a cheat?

If he does contact you to tell you off for being a truth teller while he is a cheat - just be very, very bored. If you respond to what he is saying at all.

My response would be 'Uh huh, hmm. Not really good enough. Have to go. Bye bye now.'

thank you, indiegirl! Those responses are great.

I actually didn't have to expose him to everyone. His family is so large that they did it for me. I can't contact her family- I don't know anything other than a very common name, and couldn't find them on facebook or anything.

You are caught up in the emotion right now, you need to focus on the plan and ignore your WH's actions. He is in fantasy land and will act irrationally until his affair ends and he completes withdrawal.

Think about it, why would he be angry that you contacted OW one on one if he wanted to reconcile? He would embrace that if he truly wanted to recover your Marriage. Also, he clearly has contact with her or he wouldn't even know you contacted her, he wants to continue the A and will say anything and do anything to make that happen, this is known as gaslighting.

Get to working on that so you can expose to her parents. Did you find her facebook page?

Did you send out an email to the friends and family like I suggested??

I get the sense that you are ignoring our advice again. Are you finding her parents. Are you doing anything??

I guess my post was missed so I will post it again - I spent a lot of time on it and I hope it wasn't a waste:

I would say more like "Ok, ok. I am standing up for our marriage and am willing to work on our marriage so we have a fulfilling romantice marriage where both of our needs are met, but this is impossible until your A is over and you have no contact with the OW. I love you, DD and I are here ready for you and have a good day."

reposting:

i looked for them with reverse number lookup, no name shows up. Nothing on FB.

Yes, I sent the message like you suggested.

Exposure is your stick. Now is the time for stick. He's been getting plenty of carrots!

Let's move this mule on into pole position and then get you into Plan B.

keep looking!! Don't stop until you have exhausted every resource.

Does she live with her parents? Where do they live? Do you know?

Is she married??

she's not married, and i have no clue who she lives with or where

Keep searching!

Do you have her phone number, email address or an online nickname? Sometimes if you google these things or search on Facebook you can turn up her identity.

One thing you could do is once he gets in touch, tell your H he has five minutes to give you all her info or you will not consider him serious about reconcilliation. If he wants to know why you want it just tell him: "To see if you are for real".

However this should be a last ditch attempt. Try everything else to find her on your own first.

What do you know? Lets start there.

i have her phone number (and location), but it's under her dad's name, which is a common name. I don't know her name, just his (I think I said I knew her name before? I meant that i know the name on the phone).

I have tried googling, FB, everything, and i can't find anything.

My H doesn't want reconciliation now, so he won't give any information. He wants to get a D. He's irate that I did this.

i had a lovebuster (a pretty big one). I told him that someone in his family told me to look up her number.

Then, when he caught me in that lie, I said that it was a friend.

Then, I admitted that it was me in the heat of the moment.

Why don't you call her back and ask for her name?

Do you have the address for the phone?

You could call up hiding your phone number and wait for a man to answer, then ask if it is her dad or significant other. How do you know it's her dad?

Is it a small town? Nearby?

What about landlines? Have you tried looking up landline #s with her fathers name in that location? You could call them and say you are trying to reach "Joe Smith who has a 25 year old daughter."

That's a really good idea. That's how reporters find people.

good idea, thanks.

okay. exposed

Please. Give us the details and don't just write 2 word posts.

You have one of our best posters here helping you, even after you dismissed her posts to you telling you there was an affair here.

And you continue to post as if you are not taking her seriously.

Not sure if that's your intent, but I am here to tell you, friend, if you don't knock it off, she's not going to help you anymore and that's a BAD MOVE if you want to save your M.

Good luck

sorry, no it's not my intent. i have a daughter to watch, so i am running to the computer when i get a chance, i don't have any help for even 5 minutes.

i found her father through fb, sent the letter. sent the letter elsewhere. saw that they were read (some people responded, others did not). A lot of people are on the side of ending it.

H feels like his friends and family turned against him, mainly his best friend, b/c they told him that he should tell me about it as i'm away b/c i have family and friends here, when at home i have nobody but my abusive family. So, it seems he feels he lost his best friend's trust, and he's mad at me.
Anyway, one sister in law keeps telling me that none of this is my fault, that he's acting angry at me b/c he's either mad at himself or mad at me for exposing him (depending on if he was really wanting reconciliation or not).

there are a LOT of people in support of the marriage, and ending the A.

I'm not sure how i can do plan b when i go home, b/c i don't have an IM (is that the right abbrev?).

You sent the letter WHERE? What was the fathers response? What is the daughters name? Did you find her facebook page? Did you copy her contacts?


An IM does not have to live where you live. An IM does her job through email. It needs to be a person who will act as a spam filter and who agrees to present a neutral stance. Her only job is to pass on pertinent messages and filter out the rest.

I sent the letter to his FB, and it was checked. The response was that he knows about it, and he doesn't want that for his daughter.
I know the daughter's name, but she does not have a FB (or it's private), so I cannot copy contacts.

OOOH okay, I will ask a person to be my IM! Doing that now.

(in my post, i said I have a daughter to watch, i don't know if that's what you're referring, but just to clarify, if you are, it's mine and my H's daughter. Which is why my posts are short sometimes)

The daughter is not a facebook friend of the fathers? Have you copied all the father's facebook contacts and gone through them to look for family members?

So she KNEW he was married? I thought you said she didn't know?

when she found out, she broke it off with him, and he persisted.. he called her, tried to visit her, etc. He was needy, and addicted, I suppose. But, she doesn't want him back. She doesn't want a married man or a liar (he lied about a lot)

Yesterday, he was willing to talk to me about it when I get back to our home state, but today he is so mad at me- not sure if it's b/c I exposed him, or b/c I talked to her and she fought with him again, but he's IRATE.

Is there really hope with a Plan B if he is this angry? How will he want me back if he's just soooo angry and irrational?

I believe it can work in most situations, but have you seen it work in one this extreme? When there was abuse (from me) before all of this happened?

I am going to do it, I just want to know if you're seen any success with anybody like him.

and yes, i looked through for family members, and contacted/exposed him to anyone who seemed to be a family member.

I did all of the exposing. Took a lot of work!

LonelyGal:

You should EXPECT him to angry. In fact, the angrier he is, the more you have "hit the target" with the exposure bomb. Usually, this anger dissapates pretty quickly.

Oh, and nearly all WS's claim they were "going to talk reconciliation" before the exposure bomb was dropped, but now....

THis is all textbook, LG. Stay the course.

I know, thank you.

His talk of reconciliation was more something that happened last night-
I'll explain (although it's probably still textbook)
My counsellor suggested that I write down each and every way i hurt him, and ask him for forgiveness (whether or not he actually does).
I texted him that I wanted to do that, and i said it's up to him when he wants me to do it.
I said I forgive him for everything
He then told me about the affair.. said it's confusing, built on lies, but ending, and he wants to talk in person. He said he wants to hear my list

Then, today I contacted OW and he was irate (she probably texted him about it). Said he's done, etc.

and then he informed me of his earlier plans to talk with me when I get back

Yup. Textbook.

Why do you think his is irate? Remember, the A is all fantasy. Exposure shines the light of day on the affair, and the fantasy is revealed as irrational, unsustainable, foolish, shameful...

Furthermore, quit taking his word for things. In his state of mind, he is not capable of rational thought. Not only to WS's lie about things, they delude themselves. So trying to figure him out, or expect a rational answer from him, is setting yourself up for further pain.

Just stop doing that...

thank you.

Also- do you think the Plan B could work even with my history of abuse? i was awful to him (and now he's been awful to me, in a different way)

and what is my next step in plan b? writing the letter? do I mail it or give it when I see him?

Scrap the list. Obviously if he is having an affair, then he is looking for justications for his affair. You don't need to hand him that justification. And "forgiveness" is entirely inappropriate so don't go there.

Does your counselor know of the affair?

Did you download and read Surviving an Affair like I suggested? Get everything in order FIRST. Who is your IM? How will finances and visitations be handled? Get this all worked out FIRST so you can go completely dark after you send the letter.

Has your husband contacted you TODAY about your exposures?

I ordered it on ebay, b/c i can't afford to download it.

My im is a mutual friend. finances he will give money, and i'm not sure if there will be visitations.

Yes, he contacted me today, but it was anger and I don't know if it was about me messaging her or about the exposures.

I would read SAA first before you go into Plan B so you understand WHY you should go into Plan B. Hopefully you did not order an old version.

Did you listen to his messages? Do you have confirmation that he knows you have exposed to the OW's father? You want them to all be contacting him.

You will probably want to set up visitiations but tell him he will have to pick up your daughter on the porch, and return her the same way. Can your parents do the child tranfers?

Give him a set schedule, such as 1-3 on Saturday and every Wednesday from 5 to 7. [just an example] If there is a set schedule, then you aren't in constant communication with the IM. If one of you files for divorce, this will be the schedule they will adopt so it is good to get a routine in place.

He's feeling the impact of the exposures. He told his mom that his phone was 'blowing up' all day.

My parents are abusive, so they are not allowed near her.

A set schedule is good.

since I have to wait for my book, should i work on Plan A until then? This way I'm not just sitting stagnant?

i emailed my counselor about it being an affair, but we don't meet until next week. As for the forgiveness, it's for me to apologize more than it's for him. I need to clear that in myself.

Could one of you please answer if you think there is hope for my marriage even though I was incredibly abusive? Have you seen many successes? I know a few of you have been active on here for a long time (and have wonderful advice)

Yes, I agree you should just stay in Plan A until you are fully ready to go into Plan B. That will give you time to leave on a pleasant note. If he calls, be as pleasant as possible and don't allow him to bait you into a fight. Can you do that?


Success!!

As far as hope, I give your marriage about a 50-50 chance. your husband left for his affair and has placed all the blame on your "abuse." Do you understand that he used your "abuse" to rationalize his affair? Your behavior was wrong, but he has exaggerated it to paint himself as the victim here. YOU ARE THE VICTIM! Don't say that to him but don't let him keep pounding you about your abuse.'

Just tell him you will be willing to make a radical change in your behavior in the future if he ends his affair. <-----that is the message you should give him. Don't offer to forgive him though.

thank you.

I will go back to plan A.

he has been texting vicious things, and i responded with simple things "cooking for (daughter)", things like that- things that I am doing that I did not do in our relationship.

should i make them more heartfelt if i am to be in plan a?

I wouldn't reply at all if he is nasty.

What is he saying?

- " take your self pity and misery and bestow it on another. I am done. We are done. Stop [censored] with me. I don't want to be with you, I don't love you anymore. We're over."

-"you can't eff my life up anymore"

-"done"

-"was going to try to have a conversation with you when you came back..you effed that up" me:"how?" him:"magic, you tell me"

-"you are finished"


How can I deposit love units if I don't see him or have contact?

(and the book I ordered is the 2007 version :-/ It was all I could afford)

Go online and check if your local library has a more recent copy. If not, ask if they have a "buy what the readers ask for" policy, whereby they would stock the most current edition.

The 2007 edition is better than nothing, but you might be able to get a more recent copy faster through your library...

i already called the library here, nothing. If I'm back in my home area before my book is there, I will get it from that library.

This is so hard.

Should I call or message him at all or just let him contact me?

You can't deposit love units because his love bank is CLOSED to you. It has been closed for a long time. And will stay closed until the affair is killed. That is why we were so adamant about finding out if there is an affair.

And you dealt a death blow to the affair!! He is FURIOUS!!

So when he calms down and calls, just tell him you are sorry he is upset but felt everyone should know about his affair. Now you know why he left. [he will deny it and blame on you, aka satan incarnate]

See, he has been demonizing you all this time in order to justify his affair.

Let him call you.

yes, well, I was abusive, too (pretty badly), but he is def wrong to do this!

How can I do plan a without love units? isn't anything positive pretty much a love unit?

Can you do a mod notify and ask them to give me your email address? Can I email you? If so, will you mod notify and give them your email address?

of course! i would love that
.. how do i notify the mods?

Plan A means that you commit to meeting his needs in the future if he ends his affair and commits to the marriage. Since he has been in an affair, though, his lovebank has largely been closed. The changes you have made have, no doubt, left a good impression and that is what you WANT.

edited

I read the book.

and I am wondering:

How do you KNOW if the WS and OW are over?

What if WS does not want to reconcile? What if he does not want to work on the POJA?

I related to Sue and John a lot (as my husband fell in love with the OW, and all, and it seemed to take the natural end of her wanting nothing to do with a married man and lies in general), except he is angry and DONE, not willing to work on things as Sue was.

He's mad at me because he feels like I blew his last chance with her by texting her (even though there was no last chance). She let him know about my text, and that it's more of a reason to not see each other- because I am not done with my marriage.

I found this out from a family member, not him. He's through with me.

Not only is he in full blown justification mode but he's trying to provoke more anger to get more justication.

If he contacts you and the only reaction he gets is calm, cool and collected - and a willingness to meet needs in future, you're golden.

He can hardly expect you to be a loving wife while he is cheating on you. It is very important to not let Plan A turn into Plan Doormat.

Plan A is carrot and stick and it is totaly OK to say 'that's hurtful' or 'I'm ending this conversation until you are more civil'. "I will meet your needs when your end your affair" is as far out as you need to lean.

As for Sue and John she was very unremorseful and angry for a long time. She said there was no hope even after the A ended. She is also a WW, which is a completely different creature to a WH.



Listening to anything a wayward says is a terrible idea. He would need help finding his own behind at the moment.

Thank you!

On a positive unrelated note, I just took a step in applying to some jobs that would open the doors to a career I want (I have been a stay at home wife/mom since I got married at 20 years old)

No, Sue was not willing. She was angry and done. She moved in with Greg! Jon had to go into Plan B for a while until the affair crumbled. And that is what you should do. Plan to go into Plan B and as his affair crumbles the situtition will change.

HOWEVER, your Plan B letter gives him your conditions for return. I don't think you really understand the gravity of the crime your husband has committed against you. This trumps any "abuse" your husband committed against you and if he wants to come back he will have to commit to making radical changes so this does not happen again. Otherwise, you are better off without him.

Did you read the Plan B letter?

No he's not. He's angry that you interfered with his affair! you ruined his great set up! A wife on the sidelines and a mistress on the front burner! You ruined it all for him!!

thank you.

yes, i read the plan b letter.

But IF his affair is over, (I'm not saying it is for CERTAIN, b/c he probably found someone else), but anyway, if it IS over, what would plan b accomplish?

i understand that it's to get him to end his affair.. but if it's already ended, what good is it if he's already gone?

What if WS does not want to reconcile? What if he does not want to work on the POJA?[/quote]

Then he doesn't get another chance with you. When you go into Plan B, you will tell him that he must end his affair and commit to recovering the marriage so this never happens again. He will have to give you just compensation to make up for the wrongs he has committed against you. If he won't do that, then you don't have a marriage anyway and would be better off without him.

I think you will be surprised at what happens when you go into Plan B, though. The PURPOSE of Plan B is to protect YOU from his affair and his refusal to work on the marriage. That being said, it has been my experience that when a BS goes into Plan B, suddenly that WS who wanted nothing to do with the BS is furious that he is not allowed contact! The reason is because he liked having control over her and liked having her around as a fallback option while he conducted his affair. But as his affair crumbles, he may become more and more willing to work on your marriage - just as happened with Jon and Sue.

The purpose is to protect you from a spouse who won't commit to the marriage, who refuses to meet your needs. He is much more likely to be motivated to do so if you remove yourself from the scene.

Another key element here is that you should not appear as if you are chasing him or are too available. Not only is that unattractive to HIM, but it wears you down emotionally. This is why Harley recommends that betrayed wives only spend 3-4 weeks in Plan A. Esentially you have been in Plan A for months.

I assure you he is in damage control and is doing everything to persuade her to come back to him. The affair is not over. But that is beside the point. If he refuses to meet your needs in a committed marriage, then Plan B is the answer.

I get it. I'm getting back to my home state this week, so I will write up the letter today and mail it. By the time I get there, he will have the letter, and I can remove his belongings.

There is no hurry. You might wait until next week when things settle down from exposure. You want the last thing on his mind to be a pleasant interaction with him if possible. I would get everything in place before you do this. For example, do you have a good intermediary? Do you have a plan for visitation? What about money? Has he been making deposits into your account? If so, I would mention this in your letter. For example, you can say, "I will expect that you would continue to make deposits in my account." And attach a visitation schedule.

How can he pick up your child without interacting with you at all? I would be thinking of how you will manage child transfers without seeing or speaking to him.

These are all details you will want to work through before oyu go into Plan B. Because once you send the letter, all avenues of contact should be shut down. He will try to get through to you but it will be up to YOU to shut that door and stay dark.

okay, thank you!

I don't have anyone who lives close enough to drop off my child besides my mother, but he hasn't seemed to want to see our daughter anyway, so I don't know.

I'll give him his time to calm down as i think more on these things and try to figure everything out.

He makes deposits into my account when he gets his check, but his sister tells me i need to ask for more, and just let him suffer and deal with his problems, not to care if he doesn't have enough money. I am my daughter's only care-taker right now, and he needs to own up to that.

Can your mother do the exchanges? You will want to OFFER this up so it doesn't look like you are withholding the child. In the letter tell him you will make your DD available for visitation on Saturdays from 1 to 4 and Wednesday from 5 to 7 and he needs to pick her up. Ask that he not come in your home.


I would find out what he would have to pay in CS and spousal support in your state and ask him for that amount. Find out today what that will be so you will have that ready to show him when the time is right.

x2 His plan is to browbeat you back into submission and woo her back to his side.

Plan B is for two things:

a) For you. The A is a three legged stool. Affairs don't survive unless there is a handy BS to attack and blame constantly. They always fight with you, never with each other. This cruelty will land you in the nut house.

b) For the marriage. To let them get on with the inevitable start of the fighting phase of their relationship. To let the needs you meet start to be missed. To show you are proudly unavailable because you are worth more.

Plan B heals.

If the A crumbles beyond repair, you will be fresher and less resentful than if you;d stayed around to take the abuse.

If it never ends or he nver comits to honesty, you will be fresher to face divorce and it will hurt less.

Those are all great ideas.

I'll be doing some research on support later.

The problem with my mother doing the exchanges is she was abusive to me when I was growing up, (physically, sexually, ...), so I never let her be alone with my daughter (except during my counselling). I could possibly have WS pick DD up on the porch with my mother there as the person to hand her over, this way I don't have to see him.

That will be perfect!

I contacted him today about money in my account (since I'm not on Plan B yet). I texted. He called our daughter last night on my mother inlaw's phone.

His texts weren't hateful today, they were matter of fact- how much $, when will we be back, etc.

I said that he hurt me. I thanked him for calling our daughter, and said that it made her feel really good. I left it at that. He said nothing about that, but wasn't a jerk like the other day.

Now I will only talk to him if he talks to me, until Plan B starts.

I looked up child support in my state, and I'm getting more from him than they would make him pay.

But you might also get spousal support. GEt an amount in mind and in your Plan B letter, simply say that "I will expect that you will continue to deposit $XXX in our bank account for the support of our daughter."

There's spousal support too.

Also fifty bucks enforcable by law and which can be relied on as regular is worth more than a hundred bucks which can be given one day, but withheld the next on a wayward's whim.

I was on the radio show today, and they had awesome things to say and suggest!

I have a school tour for my child on Monday, that my H will be at, so I plan on giving him the letter then, this way I know he reads it. I am dreading seeing him- it's the first time since he told me about the A, and it will be in a school.

That was you? That was great advice you got!! What did you think of going to school to be a nurse? I am so glad you contacted the Harleys.

on monday, I'm going to a school to see what other jobs with the same amount of training are in that salary range, something that might be more suited for me.

They did give awesome advice, and I'm working on everything they said : )

Since I'm still in Plan A (until the end of the week?), he contacted me today. He called to talk about financial matters, and we discussed it, businesslike. No outbursts or anything on either end. He ended it saying he has to call someone (who I assumed was OW. I was wrong).

I informed some people of this conversation (people who are on the side of marriage). One said that he and her are done, that he is saying it's too little too late with me, that he doesn't think he will see my changes now or ever. That person was his mother, and told me to become independent, do what I have to do, it's what he wants.

He called again later saying that his family told him I texted the other gal. I said that we will talk about it in counselling, but he said he's not going, and for some reason I gave in. I told him one thing that was in my first text, and ONE thing that she said. I said I am not telling anything else unless he goes to counselling. He said he won't go, and I said okay, and that it's for my own heart's protection. Bye. Bye. End of conversation. No love busters.

I told his mother that I do not want him back right now, that if he decides he wants to reconcile, it will be slow. I do not want him to ever live in this house again.

Does this seem hopeful at all? I know I will still have to go into Plan B, but I also know you guys said to wait until I can do A for a bit longer, so he can remember not only the bad things about me (and we are forced to see each other Monday, for our daughter's school meeting). (I am preparing for B, though, I have most of his items packed)

I would get ready to go into Plan B on Monday. Get your letter ready, prepare to shut off all avenues of contact for him and get an intermediary lined up. The IM needs to be someone who is not his family member and who will agree to a) act as a spam filter and not pass anything other than crucial information about child visitation and finances and b) who will agree to present a neutral front.

I would also read through this thread to get a thorough understanding of Plan B: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2482787#Post2482787

so pretty much whenever HE actually SAYS that the A is over, Plan B ends? I understand how to do it, but now how to end Plan B.

When he meets your conditions in your Plan B letter is when Plan B ends.

What conditions have you given him?

Will he write a NC letter? Change all his contact information?

I don't know what good conditions are to give.

I like the idea of the NC letter. Because of his job, changing his contact information might not be possible, but blocking her number would be a good option.

one of my conditions is (even right now)- if we're talking about ANYTHING relationship aspect, it will be in counselling. (I go to counselling), because I have to protect myself, too. Actually, for me, this is the most important one.

What are some conditions that have worked with people before?

Did you read the link MelodyLane posted to you?
How to Plan B Correctly

Remind me again, do they work together?

Here.
Extraordinary Precautions-Revised SAA

ah okay.

No, they do not work together.

He has already done a few of those on his own, and I think they're all awesome.

But, what if he still wants no relationship with me, so he won't do a lot of those?

And also- Dr. Harley had suggested that we do NOT live together right now, but that even when/if he is ready to reconcile, we do it sort of from afar, because I have to work on becoming more independent and also have to get out of this abusive house. One of H's biggest issues with me was my dependence on him.

The most important EPs are, that whatever conditions that allowed for him to carry on his affair must be changed.

How did he carry on his affair?

Email, text, phone, hotel, her place?

text, and her place. they spent a lot of time in the car, too, emotional time.

Text from his work phone?

Also, I would have a GPS put on his vehicle so you know where he's always at.

If he isn't serious about any of your conditions then he's not serious about recovery.

Can you list here what conditions you will be giving him for feedback from the board?

i also have no friends or family who are willing to be an IM. Nobody agrees with that, and it makes it really hard.

You have no friends who would be willing to be an intermediary? What about a sister or a brother?

The only "conditions" you will put in the Plan B letter are: end all contact with the OW and commit to rebuilding our marriage.

You don't get detailed until he agrees to those conditions. And at that point, your IM will send him that information. If you can find an IM, you can give her my email address and I will help her. It is the easiest job in the world if done right.

What exactly do they not agree with?

Friends don't agree with this method. I've tried a LOT of people, they thought it was a good idea until it came to having a person be the go-between. : (
The only sibling I have is an abusive one who hasn't said a word to me for 15 years.

I found a friend! Finally!

Now, what if H doesn't go along with it? What if he won't e-mail?

I don't have your email anymore, melody...

Notify the MODS and they can exchange emails for you.

Then he doesn't get a message to you!! Almost all WS's initially refuse, so everytime he tries to get through directly, the IM simply emails him and says "lonelygal did not receive your message. Please forward any messages to me if you want to get a message to her."

Include her email address in the letter you give him.

I just sent you an email, btw..

Also, you do not hand him the Plan B letter.
The last memory of you should ideally be a good one.

Why not hand him the letter? To give it to him by messenger would look like conflict avoidance. Dr. Harley suggests writing these letters and giving them to your spouse on many occassions. It's direct, yet done without Lovebusters. It shows a certain amount of self-confidence and proper independence that just might keep lonelygal at least a little bit interesting to her husband.

In my letter,

do you think it's a bad idea to put in an option for him to go to counselling with me?

Like, no contact unless it's an emergency or he will go to counselling with me.

I would not put that in there. The marital recovery program he needs to follow is Marriage Builders, so if/when he agrees to meet your conditions that is what I would ask.

And I agree it is ok to hand him the letter. Just don't discuss it or wait around for him to read it. Hand him the envelope and just say "please read this later when you are alone."

Are you riding to the school together?

no, we're going separately, and he is taking our daughter for the day.

oh good! Have you written your letter, patterning it after the letter in the book SAA? When you are done, please post it so we can give you feedback.

I actually wrote it patterned after the first sample letter, but I am going to rewrite it later, because I am not happy with it (I need to go to the store to buy paper.. haha).

I'm thinking I will pattern it after the ones in SAA, and blend it with the first sample letter.

I will be posting it tonight sometime.

Did you see the letter in SAA? That is one I would use.

yes, I had written that one down, but then I saw the list on http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2482787#Post2482787 which includes adding things like vacations, holiday traditions, etc.

I wanted to incorporate some of this in, because he and I always made it a point to travel, create awesome traditions, and do fun things.

Should the addendum be a separate letter given the same day?

The Plan B Board says to do that addendum, but in the sample letter in the book, it sort of includes the information about the child.

Which is why I want to re-write mine, I think- to keep it separate.

I'm curious- is there a link to your own story? Did you use this method?

You can go back and read all my previous posts by clicking on my name. And no, I have never been in Plan A or Plan B because I didn't know about Marriage Builders at the time. However, I would not have done either. When I found out my H was having an EA, I kicked him out and planned to end the marriage. I had just been married for a few months so it wasn't worth it. My H approached me and asked to come back. After that, we found Marriage Builders and created a really great marriage.

If I were you, I would just add these lines into your Plan B letter:

"I expect that you will continue to deposit XXX into our account for the support of me and DD. I have attached a visitation schedule. I would only ask that you pick up and return DD without coming inside the house."

Then attach some type of visitation schedule that you think would work for you and him.

Is there a board with success stories at all? I need some hope right now as I get ready to Plan B.

Here's your question.
Radio Clip of lonelygal's Show/question

I'm still afraid of doing the Plan B-

the reason his affair ended was b/c of his lies about being married and everything. But, if we're separated, there would be no lies. He would be being honest w/ another girl if he were to start another relationship. It would be easy for him. It would be what he wants. He wants divorce, I feel like this is just giving him what he wants.

I'm really conflicted. I know everyone is saying to Plan B, but I don't feel like I did Plan A long enough (because I was away for 3 weeks), I had no contact for a little, and various reasons.
I feel like I should Plan A as I work on my things a little... :-/ since I am back in the area now.

Plan A time is over. You have been in Plan A for months. If he doesn't get that by now, he will never get it.

The purpose of Plan B is to give you what YOU want, which is removal from his affair<s> and his non commitment. A continuation of Plan A makes you look MORE unattractive to him while his rejection wears you down even more. More Plan A will hurt, not help.


Starting another affair is another good reason to be in Plan B. But I doubt he will start another affair. He will just continue with the same one.

the goal of Plan A is to tell your wayward spouse that you will be willing to make changes in the FUTURE if he commits to the marriage. You have already done this. You have shown him for months that you will stop lovebusters and meet his needs. There is no more reason for Plan A.

One of the main reasons Dr Harley advocates a very short Plan A for women is because it does not make look very attractive. It comes across as chasing your WS, which is unattractive. You SAW his reaction when he told you this was not an option last week.

I understand, but at the same time he was still having an A as i was plan-a-ing. Now that it's over, as I work on myself FROM A DISTANCE, can't I plan-A when I do see him? (working on all of the things that the Harley's suggested)- not chasing him :-/

I just want to do it for 2 weeks since I'm back in town.

here's one of my reasons..

i didn't have a driver's license, and that has affected him greatly, b/c I couldn't be independent. It really bothered him.

I had to go to his home state in order to get it (b/c I had id there, and it was way cheaper). I finally got my permit, and now I can practice driving so I can take my test.

I want to continue Plan A as I do this so that he can see the changes, so that he can see that I really am making them, not just talking about them. My Plan A didn't completely work before because I wasn't quite doing it. I was going to counselling, and working on the emotional stuff, but not the physical things like this- things that really affected our marriage. It was just talk of "I am going to", but he saw no progress.

That is a terrible idea and I will explain why.


That was because he was not looking for progress, but for more reasons to blame you for his affair.

Here is your Plan A: tell him you will be willing to meet his needs and avoid lovebusters in the FUTURE if he a) ends his affair and b) commits to the marriage.

That is ALL Plan A is supposed to be. There is no such thing as a perfect Plan A. With women, Plan A needs to be very short lived because it can actually have the effect of making them unattractive.

Until he does that, you should not have contact with him. Hanging around, being available at this point just makes you much less attractive which makes it much less likely he will EVER come around.

Surely you understand WHY it bothered him? It was because it made it more difficult to dump you. He didn't want you to be dependent on him because he doesn't want you hanging around.

"Here is your Plan A: tell him you will be willing to meet his needs and avoid lovebusters in the FUTURE if he a) ends his affair and b) commits to the marriage. "

(I don't know how to do those quote boxes)
I didn't do this until 4 days ago, but I was away.

Dr. Harley says there's a reason that women shouldn't be in Plan A longer than 3 weeks, besides the obvious health concerns a BW isn't attractive to a WH when she's trying to chase him it looks desperate.

Also if a WH doesn't come back "hat in hand on bended knee" he's not serious about recovery.

No, you have been telling him this since he LEFT.

You have been in Plan A since you arrived here. There is no reason to do it any longer. Even Dr Harley told you to go into Plan B. It only hurts your position by dragging this out longer. It does not make you appear more attractive, but more desperate.

PLUS, you will be telling him all the above in your Plan B letter.

I didn't start Plan A right when I began on this forum. I should have, but I didn't.

I didn't believe you guys, so I tried giving him space. I went away, didn't contact him, etc. I was still needy and all until I went away. Then, I was away for 3-4 weeks (out of his 8-9 weeks gone).

No one can force you to go into Plan B. This is all voluntary. You can always refuse to take the advice, but I would just point out that even Dr Harley told you to go into Plan B. Good luck..

I want to go into Plan B, but not until I am either closer to getting my license, or closer to doing SOME changes that he can see. He sees that I am working on counselling, but that's all he saw.

I am going to take your advice, but even you said to give it another week or so- to leave him with GOOD memories. You said when he calls to answer. He finally called yesterday. That WAS your advice.

Like I said, you don't have to take the advice. I am not going to argue with you about it.

I'm more curious as to why you suggested giving a week or so more, but then changing it to Plan B now.

I don't want to argue, I want to understand.

I had worked on parts of the carrot end of Plan A, but until 4 days ago, I didn't do ANY of the stick end. Now, I did the stick, and he reacted exactly as you expected, and he has calmed down and called, as you said he would. He is doing what you said he would do when you were suggesting me Plan A for a little longer. That's where I am confused as to why I should Plan B right now :-/

All of the reasons for Plan B have been explained to you.
I havent kept up with your recent updates, but based on the post above it looks like even dr. harley advised Plan B.

Dr. Harley suggested the plan b for myself, because of my depression.

I understand what Plan B is, and I think it's wonderful, but I was advised at one point to plan a for a bit longer.. which is why i'm confused (sorry about the lack of caps, my shift key doesn't always work0

I encourage you to follow Dr. Harley's advice and enter plan B immediately.

I am the one who told you to wait a "little while longer," and by that I meant NEXT WEEK. You are twisting my words to drag this out to suit your own personal wishes.

Don't use my words to justify dragging it out. I don't appreciate it one bit. Dr Harley told you to go into Plan B and so did I. You can refuse to take the advice, but don't pretend like someone here told you to do that.

I didn't mean to twist your words, I have a bad memory.

Yes, you said Next week. and yes, you told me to Plan B after that. i am not disagreeing with that.

This is just the hardest decision I have had to make... and it's not that I am trying to justify dragging it out, it's that I want to be sure it's the right decision for my MARRIAGE. His affair ended because he was married, we're already separated, but if i separate more permanently, there will be no reason for a different OW to end an affair due to marriage..

That is where I am conflicted. That is what he wants me to do, I would be doing exactly what he wants... Yes, it is in my terms, but it is still what he wants :-/

I'm not trying to argue, I'm trying to be SURE that this is right for US. I also understand the self-preservation aspect of it.

since I am still plan A-ing for a tiny bit, I want to mention what has happened.

Today, we went to the school to visit, no talking really. He said we will text about it, and he had our daughter for the day. He brought our daughter back, and we all went for a walk together with our dogs. During this time, he told me A is done (he said I knew this b/c I talked to her), and that he is working on taking care of himself for the first time ever. He still wants divorce (didn't say that, but talked that way), but I instead of giving into any drama he might cause (he wasn't being dramatic), continued to lovebust, and I talked about things I am working on. We ended up talking about the school thing, too. Our time out was almost-friendly.

He said he will see us on Wednesday.

It seems you really don't want to follow MB/Dr. Harley's program. Is that correct?

We can only offer you Dr. Harley's advice.
We cant go along with your conflicted methodology of remaining in Plan A and disregarding what Dr. Harley advised.

You have 2 options:

1. Basically, your current path will just allow the affair to continue...eventually it will die as most affairs do die; at that point he will probably return to you. But you will be so beaten down and accustomed to being a doormat that another affair will probably ensue.

2. Following Dr. harley's advice will help your physical and emotional health, while establishing firm rules for a healthy marriage if he decides to end his affair and follow a path of recovery.

The affair HAS ended

...and if he chooses to reconcile with me, by no means am I going to be a doormat (and I don't want him to be one, either). I am going to give him those guidelines (I forget what they're called on here).

You're not in Plan A, you're in Plan C.

Plan A has a short deadline and the BS is empowered, firm, admirable, calm and headed for the door. That's not you. You are hanging around indefinitely, permitting infidelity to continue indefinitely and sending off signals of desperation.

Plan C enables the affair by rewarding it and it always leads to divorce. I have never seen a case of Plan C where it did not lead to divorce.

Not only will you lose your marriage you will also get very ill and it is unlikely that you will be happy for a number of years. Not only will you lose this marriage but you will also lose yourself, your health and the opportunity to remarry.

I know a number of traumatised BW's who took this path and they aged ten years in one.


It's your choice entirely and the very best of luck.

How am I in Plan C if the affair is over?

Of course he was friendly. You are now on board with his affair which is great news for him.

...and if the affair is over?

It's perfectly possible to Plan A in a day. All you need to do is show a calm face once and promise a good marraige AFTER the affair is ended. You are not in a psoition to do anything till he ends his affair.

A few weeks is the maximum to avoid looking desperate.

Any spouse can set up Plan B in two days and Plan A in the meantime.

again, what if the affair is over? Died a natural death, then he pursued for a while, until he finally ended it, too.

Plan B applies until all conditions for recovery are met. NC letter, transparency - the works.

Until conditions are met the A is an option. If you make yourself an option you are in Plan C.

Your Plan A promises are in the Plan B letter. However you must not hang around in such a desperate fashion.

Affairs 'end' all the time. Then they re-start. It is in their nature to be on again off again. You must protect yourself until he gives cast iron guarantees that he will be faithful.

If you are not interested in drawing that line in the sand you are in Plan C. Plan Aers are most firm about that line.

He is slowly becoming transparent... on his own. (I was allowed to look at his phone for the first time in months, he gave me a date that his work schedule will change, he gave me his hours, little things. I am going to ask for more the next time I see him...)

I mean, we had our issues before the affair, of course. I was abusive, that's not something a person would just want to go back to, or someone that they would want to reconcile with.

and if he doesn't want to head toward recovery with me (due to our relationship issues, even INCLUDING the affair)?

I am sure he does have some potential to return to you. However Plan C will destroy all of this potential by encouraging his affair and making you extremely ill and unattractive.

You are giving the A your blessing and making sure it thrives. You are showing yourself in a desperate unattractive light.

Like I said, if you want Plan C that's your decision. You will need a lot of luck to deal with the misery coming your way.

What exactly is Plan C?

Plan C is remaining in indefinite contact after the WS refuses to meet all of the recovery conditions.

It is not Plan A, where you make it clear you are only around short term - it is not Plan B where the WS misses you.

If you were a man we'd tell you to Plan A for six months. However it is very unattractive for woman to Plan A this long - it makes them look desperate.

Also because men 'compartmentalise' their affairs, men enjoy being friends with their BS while being free to resume the A. Men enjoy Plan A so much they don't want the cake eating to end.

A Husband must be hat in hand remorseful for recovery to work.

We know he is 'saying' otherwise and blaming you. That's typical.

If your reponse to his doing nothing is to stick around, he will continue to do nothing.

Plan C is plan Confusion.

Plan C is ignoring the good doctor's advice.

Plan C is thinking that Dr. Harley's advice doesn't apply, because you know how to fix a marriage better than him. He is, after all, a professional who has saved many marriages, and you are here because you guys are obviously doing things very wrong.

's a general "you", by the way - it never ceases to amaze me how many people come here with terrible marriages and then think they know better how to fix it. They are, after all, experts at wrecking them, how did they suddenly become experts at fixing it?

You are a lawyer, correct?

Surely you have dealt with a client who watched Law & Order and thought they knew the law better than you. After all, they bungled a basic contractual obligation and you only went to law school. Wouldn't that client make you roll your eyes?

This link explains Plan C.

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2054947

Dr Harley says:


"What is Plan C?

It is a compromise. I never recommend Plan C. Plan A is you do the best to win your spouse back.

Plan B is you have absolutely nothing to do with the spouse.

Those 2 are the best strategies in an affair. They give you the best shot at saving the marriage.

Plan C, which I don't ever recommend is a compromise is an inbetween state where you are in contact but the contact is not solving the problem.

Plan C makes it more likely you will end up divorced. Some contact but not quality contact. This is a BAD PLAN. It is better to have no contact."

Ah, I understand Plan C now.

During his affair, he did NOT want to be friends with me by any means. In a way, he's more like the woman in part of the relationship stuff.

By no means do I think I know how to fix it better than them, but there are essentially 3 huge problems we had.
1-my dependence and depression (which I am working on, as the harley's suggested, and as I wanted to do anyway),
2- my abuse (which, for that, they suggested love busters, and NOW I am doing it, b/c we have contact, which we didn't have since January 25). and
3- the affair (which is over).

At the end of spending time together yesterday (as a family), I suggested doing it again, and let him choose when. He chose a date. That was NOT something he did during the affair. This was something the harley's suggested before I knew about the affair - making it a point to schedule something after seeing eachother.

In a couple of weeks, we are doing something alone, and I am going to suggest filling out the emotional needs questionaire.

Right, that's Plan C.

It would be better to Plan B and create an attractive life for yourself. One he might be tempted to join. This desperation and chasing after him with forms is most unattractive.

Besides all of which you know the A is really in full swing right?

How is the A in full swing?

I am working on my own life...

You say:



But you do:



I don't have any interest in persuading you off Plan C. It's your life, not my life at risk. See for yourself how much of it you can survive. You will discover for yourself how unpleasant it is and how much it encourages him to string you along and be unfaithful.

Try it.

There is no NC letter written by him for you to send. if the A were dead, never to be resumed, this would be an easy gesture.

Why would he care if the A is dead?

ooh okay, I completely forgot about the no-contact letter from him, for me to send. Can I have a friend (of mine, not his) send it instead? For my own mental health, I cannot know her full name (or it WILL make me go crazy, because of my past issues. There ARE questions I want answers to, but her name is not one of them)

Even though he doesn't want to reconcile with me, should I see if he will write it? Try to set up some type of stipulations even though he does NOT want to reconcile?

more of a - there will be no more of these family days unless you do ....

Please read.
BSs Plan C is not a Plan

Dr. Harley advised you to go to Plan B, but you didn't want to take his advice.

We on the forum have advised and tried to backup what Dr. Harley has stated. You didn't like Dr. Harley's advice or our advice and instead you went to others until you found what you "wanted to hear".

We advise Marriage Builders on this site.

Why don't you see if your WH will write a NC letter?

Then I suggest you file for a D and don't try to recover. If you don't know her name then you won't be aware enough of the enemies of your marriage. You won't know if she shows up to be your new best friend. It's like volunteering to be a sentry but you have to wear a blind fold because you are scared.

Do you understand how tough recovery is going to be? It is 2-5 years of VERY hard work. That's after your WH is fully on board!

Checklist for How Affairs Should End

_____The unfaithful spouse should reveal information about the affair to the betrayed spouse.

_____The unfaithful spouse should make a commitment to the betrayed spouse to never see or talk to the lover OP again.

_____The unfaithful spouse should write a letter to the lover OP ending the relationship and send it with the approval of the betrayed spouse.

_____The unfaithful spouse should take extraordinary precautions to guarantee total separation from the lover OP:

_____Block potential communication with the lover OP (change e-mail address and home and cell phone numbers, and close all social networking accounts; have voice messages and mail monitored by the betrayed spouse).

_____Account for time (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a twenty-four-hour daily schedule with locations and telephone numbers).

_____Account for money (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a complete account of all money spent).

_____Spend leisure time together.

_____Change jobs and relocate if necessary.

_____Avoid overnight separation.

_____Allow technical accountability.

_____ Expose affair to family members, clergy, and/or friends.

Dear H,

I want to have a romantic, loving, SAFE marriage and I will NOT stay in a loveless marriage. I am willing to give you an opportunity to earn my forgiveness. In order for the marriage to recover, certain things have to happen. This is what it will take:

1. End all contact with OW for life - send her a letter that we write together and is mailed by me (not by text, not by e-mail and absolutely NOT in person!)

2. No more nights apart or going out without each other - create a healthy, integrated lifestyle

3. Complete transparency - cell phone passwords,finances etc

4. No more opposite sex friendships

5. Complete honesty about your affair<s> � passing a polygraph

6. Commit to a program for marital recovery of my choosing.

7. Moving to new neighbourhood and or job (if applicable).

Tell him - This is what it will take to keep me in this marriage. You will have to have willingness and ability to make radical changes in your life if we are going to be married. Your lifestyle must become an open book, holding nothing back, these precautions are to prevent another affair. I love you and have no doubt that we can rebuild our marriage using these requirements.

--------

Don't fall for all this "I just want to be separated because you are abusive" line. The separation is to pursue his A while keeping you on a string. All he has to do is commit to his end and try it. How can he see you have ended lovebusting while separated?

You must insist on a full recovery or go into Plan B. You must act sure of yourself.

If you act like a desperate woman who will accept crumbs it is how you will be treated. He will live down to your standards.

Next time I see him, I will see if he will write the NC letter (today, he's seeing his brother, and I am getting together with friends).

He can see me ending lovebusting because we are starting to spend time together (as a family), but I do see your point.

I am going to write this list down, and see if he will go for it- show him that I AM serious.

PART of the problem on my end is that I don't have housing - I am living with my own abusive parents, and social services can do nothing to help (apparently, only the drug addicts can get all sorts of help, not people who really need it). I don't know if I WANT him to live here, because my parents absolutely hate him, and my mother used to hit him, and I KNOW she won't stop... (they don't know about the affair, and they won't know..)


The time-thing is difficult right now b/c of his job, HOWEVER, he had just given me a date that that changes. He has become open about finances, I just need to take the next steps and make it EXTREMELY open.

I just wanted to point out that this thread is one long litany of lonelygirl ignoring the given advice. We told her that her husband was having an affair and she refused to listen. [yes, he was having an affair the whole time just like we told her] She dismissed our advice. Dr Harley told her to go into Plan B and she dismissed his advice too. She rejected the advice of one of the top psychologists in the US.

It was plan Lonelygirl that wrecked this marriage in the first place, so taking advice from the same source is unlikely to render different results. Lonelygirl, your best thinking wrecked your marriage and you are rejecting the advice of many, many people who have resolved their own marriage problems.

In short, she has been in Plan Lonelygirl since she got here. I have no doubt that this same muleheadedness played a role in the demise of her marriage and she just doesn't get that.

That is fine if you don't want to take the advice, LG. But why keep asking for advice that you know you won't take? This board is for the purpose of discussing Dr Harley's advice, not Plan Lonelygirl.

LG, when you ask yourself which "plan" you should follow, ask yourself which person has the better credentials when it comes to resolving marriage problems..

lonelygirl's credentials: has wrecked her only marriage and has absolutely no experience in recovering after an affair

Dr Bill Harley, clinical psychologist and author of 17 books: has helped thousands of people recover their lives from bad marriages, either through marital recovery or divorce

Whose has the strongest credentials?

I just said that I am going to have him write the NC letter, etc.

I also didn't ignore all advice. I exposed him as you said, and I told him not to contact me until he and her are done.

and now I am working on stipulations... if he wants to see us as a family, he will have to agree to them.

Here is the letter Dr Harley told you to send - it is called a Plan B letter - if anyone wants to listen to the advice he gave this poster, go to 3-28 in the archives: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=5909

Sample Plan B letter, from SAA (revised edition) pages 77-78:

My Dearest __________,
I apologize to you for my part in creating an environment that helped make your affair possible. I foolishly pursued my goals without understanding my responsibility to meet your most important emotional needs. I was not there for you when you needed me the most and we are now both suffering for my mistake. [Add your willingness to address other complaints that the unfaithful spouse may have communicated prior to the affair.]

I am willing to avoid the mistakes I've made in the past and create a new life for both of us that will meet your needs. But I cannot do that until you end your relationship once and for all. Living with you under these conditions has been the most painful experience of my life, and I can no longer endure it.

Until your affair ends, and you are willing to follow a plan of reconciliation with me, I will avoid seeing you or talking to you. Our friends, ________, have agreed to help make arrangements for you to see our children on schedule that is mutually convenient. They will provide transportation. If you want to communicate about the children or any other mater, it will have to be through them.

I ask that you respect my decision to separate from you th is way. You must know about the suffering I have endured because of your relationship, and I simply cannot be with you any longer knowing that you are together. I still love you but I cannot see you under these conditions.

As soon as you are willing to permanently end your relationship, follow precautions to avoid absolutely any contact with the other person, and join me in a plan to restore our relationship, I will be wiling to discuss our future together with you.

I hope that we will be able to rebuild our marriage some day. I want us to be able to meet each other's emotional needs and to avoid doing anything to hurt each other. We can build a new lifestyle together in which everything we do makes us both happy. Then there will never be a reason for us to be separated. I want to be your best friend, someone who is always there for you when you need me. And I want you to be my best friend.

I cared for you when we married and I continue to care for you right up to this day. But I cannot be with you or help you as long as you are in this relationship.

With all my love,
(signed)

This letter should be delivered by your friends to the unfaithful spouse, and a copy sent to the lover with a note at the bottom saying:

I love ______ with all my heart and am willing to do whatever it takes to make her happy. I will wait for that chance.

Where did Dr Harley tell you to do that?

That's part of Plan B, isn't it? The no contact letter to the OW..

I have a question- since he doesn't want to reconcile with ME right now, but wants family time... could I use Plan B in that way? Like, no contact as family time unless he does the things in the list..?

Nope.

I know you want to try everything ELSE because you are scared of Plan B. You have tried! I guarantee you nothing else will work because this affair IS still on and he is not serious. It is obvious.

Plan B is really nothing to be scared of. All it involves is offering the WS a great marriage and letting them get in touch with you when they are on board. In the meantime you are freed up from cajoling and running after them and creating a great life for yourself.

Most WS are experts at giving you the hard sell: "If you just try a bit harder I might be interested". Dr H has seen this many times before and it means they are not serious.

Have you applied for assistance, like Dr. Harley advised? How is it going to find your own place, like Dr. Harley advised?

Are you on ADs for your depression?

No,

Plan A (very short) = insistence on recovery and NC letter
Plan B = No contact and concentration on healing.

Someone with "dependence and depression" should not be trying to woo back a WS. You cannot do anything about his desire to be happily married. You must accept you need to take care of yourself and you need to be in Plan B.

so a Plan B with using 'family time' instead of reconciliation isn't good?

and yes, I am scared of it - especially since he now is open to contact with me, rather than wanting nothing to do with me.

Lonelygal,

I know that you are in a difficult position in all of this. The things that you are being told don't "feel" right and don't fit in line with the way you are thinking. PLEASE listen to what these people are telling you. REALLY listen!!! You are in your own fog, so you have to open your eyes to a different understanding. You will see that in time if you quit leaning on your own ideas and understanding and let these awesome people guide you!! Do you want to truly recover your marriage or not? I speak from experience when I tell you that fear of a lot of things will continue to prevent you from taking the right action(s). You are getting the absolute best advice and plan here with the responses you have been given in this thread. My wish for you is to step out of your box and lean on the expertise and guidance you are finding here. You are smart, but please quit relying on your own knowledge in this whole affair/relationship arena. You need to show so much more strength and hold your boundaries so much higher than you are with your H. He will take advantage of every aspect of your trust. Don't believe anything he says - only believe in his actions. He will tell you anything and everything he needs to tell you to continue to do whatever it is that he wants to do. It is hard to imagine that these people give their time, understanding and advice to help each and every person that comes here. They know what they are doing!!! I hope you can find the strength to trust them and let them really help you in the many different ways they can.

Yes, I applied for assistance, and I can not get help with housing.

I have been taking the steps with my depression that Dr. H has suggested. I have applied to a 2-3 year program at a school (in a computer field). I am thinking of starting in summer, instead. H and I decided on full-day pre-K for our daughter, partly because we just love the school, and partly so we can work on things (me especially). I have been learning to drive, I also scheduled a ton of appointments (dental, which was something I avoided for years, psych, etc). I have made plans with friends (because I avoided them for years, because of my depression, essentially).

Are you on ADs?

What about a job? Have you applied for work?

About the housing, did you tell social services that your WH abandoned you?

What have you done about getting your anger under control?

I am on a natural form of ADs, so yes.

I have not applied for a job, as I don't have a car or transportation. I am working on the license. H is providing money - an amount that we agreed on (well, moreso an amount I decided, based on what others in the area are getting, but he gives more than that)

Yes, I told social services, and they pretty much kicked me out of there. It was awful to see all these drug addicts getting all of this help, and them telling me to get out. As far as section 8, there is a 5000+ person waiting list, and they won't add me.

This is exactly why LG is in this wretched position. She has no job, no car, no drivers license and is completely dependent on a man who is utterly UN dependable. This situation will not change until she stops following her feelings and listens to some sound advice.

PLan A will not resolve your issues.

LG, right now you are a barnacle on a sunken ship. We are trying to help you change that. But you have to listen and take the advice. Cherry picking what you like and don't like won't get the job done because you don't have the JUDGEMENT to know how to choose.

How old are you?

What are you doing about your anger? Do you exercise?

Have you listened to the clips in here?
Anger Management 101

I do yoga, and I have began exercising in the past few months (I am way underweight, so I have to make sure anything I do builds muscle, rather than makes me lose more weight).

I learned breathing techniques, and techniques for taking time out.

I use art and music to calm myself, and release emotions. For years, I put these things on hold, but I have begun to do it again, and not just do it, but I include my daughter in it, as well. I am also teaching her some yoga.

I am also in an anger management group at my church.

I also release it through dance, a bit.

I am 29.
I fell hard and lost all of who I was, and have begun to regain it. It might look like I'm doing nothing to you, but I'm doing a LOT..

I believe you are doing a lot for where you are. You may not realize it, but you need the people HERE to push you. It may be tough, but you have a long haul ahead of you, and everyone here will help you toughen up. You have fallen very far. We understand that. It is time for action now!!! You are gonna get it back together!!!! You will find yourself again. You just can never give up, never be weak and NEVER allow yourself to depend on your H to define you!!!!! You really are on a wonderful journey. I hope you can enjoy the knowing that you can create the life that YOU want and need. Just begin......

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Yes, you are doing A LOT of "Plan lonelygirl." That is the same "plan" that got you into this terrible place. You are relying on the judgement of the person who has wrecked your life. Unless that changes, nothing will change.

How close are you getting to receiving your license?

Are there other services you can apply for to get help?

I just got my permit recently. I just started to learn to drive. I don't know how long it takes, but I am trying as much as possible.

I am getting food stamp type stuff, but as far as housing, there is nothing. I am going to talk to my church counselor at my next appointment (wed) and see if there might be someone who has a room or two, or see if there is any type of help I can get there. (She's on vacation right now)

I have applied to HUD, section 8, I went into social services. I have spent 2 full days in there, and 3 hours another day.

You keep saying I am in plan lonely girl, but doing these things did NOT get me where I am. What got me there was me not doing anything, me not working on my issues (or even realising that i had them). I made excuses for all of them, and I'm not anymore.

Family time is nothing more than practice for a buddy divorce. You're advertising the divorce. It carries the following message:

"I am worthless. You can cheat on me and I will just play along. I will provide you with a nice happy family divorce. I will settle for that because I am totally worthless and undesirable."

It is not your fault. How hard is it for him to commit to recovery after the OUTSTANDING abuse of an A? For six months? For his children?

I PROMISE you Plan B is amazing and it will not deter a serious and committed husband.

Lonelygal, this could not be any more poignant!!!! I fell into that same exact plan. It completely destroyed me. I am getting stronger, getting my ducks in a row. If you don't listen to anything else today, PLEASE listen to ML's above quote!! Read it a million times to empower yourself!!!! I hope you see the wisdom in it. Do you even realize that you have been relying on the judgement of someone who did not have your best interests at heart? I KNOW I didn't. Even now that I do, it is still almost impossible not to listen to his toxic, most of the time nicely-stated, vile words!! It is also very difficult to get them out of your head!!! You can do it though. I am getting there!!!

You got very lost!! I think you are going to be surprised to learn that if you allow yourself, you can find yourself a lot easier if you get out of your own way!! Pull yourself up by your bootstraps and just start living life - live by your own design.

I'd like to remind you of something you said last week.

Do you see how, no matter if you get a new license or sign up for a school program, you are still dealing with an issue of dependence?

You are still telling him: you can refuse to follow basic conditions of recovery, and I'll still do "family time" and emotional needs questionnaires with you. No matter what I do or say, I will not stand up for myself when it comes to blows.

Plan C: The WS puts money on a piece of fishing wire , just in reach of the BS, twitching it out of her reach whenever she gets close. For days, months, years....until she is so tired she lays down and gets run over by the first passing car. The WS decides 'that was fun' and wanders off.

Plan B: The WS puts a note on the ground near the fishing line saying: "I would very much like this money if you would like to give it to me" and goes withdraws her own cash, goes out to lunch, gets a pedicure and a good night's sleep.

So you've done alot and followed some of Dr. Harley's advice.

So why won't you follow Dr. Harley's advice on Plan B?

because, at the time it was given, the affair was still going on, and I had no contact with WH anyway.

I seriously doubt the affair is over; or that he hasnt started another one.

What confirmation do you have that the affair has ended besides your WH's word? Will he write a NC letter?

He still needs to agree to a full recovery before you abandon Plan B:



Have you read up on the plans?

I haven't asked about the letter, yet. I am doing that next time I see him, which should be this weekend.

Right NOW, the only confirmation I have is in the phone record, and tracking on his phone. His sister checks OWs FB, as well.

..and I DO have a Plan B letter prepared.. (it follows the guide)

TRacking on his phone wont help you much, most cheaters have affair phones. they are very cheap from Walmart.

As for the Facebook, people can have an affair without posting on Facebook to each other.

You seem very desperate to move forward but you are young and still have your life ahead of you; dont stay in this place until you are 45 and then look back and realize you lived the last 20 years in misery of your own choosing.

Since you aren't in Plan B (because you refuse to) why don't you ask your WH to write a NC letter? Send him a text and ask him or call him on the phone. That simple step will show you if he is even slightly interested in recovery.

Like I did!! That is very sad, hard and humbling to admit to myself, much less anyone else!! It is a very sad and unhappy existence. I learned here that "Hope is not a plan." I lived there!!!!! Please don't do that!! It gets you nowhere but worse off.

I imagine he would refuse to send one too, but even if he did it wouldn't really help.

The problem is that the OW is quite happy to often play along. This one may or may not have genuinely broken up with WH. Or they may have gotten back together.Or they can get back together after the letter is sent.

The only way is to insist on a real recovery. This stuff about wanting a separation to see how they would be together is clearly nonsense. If she is abusive why does he want family time with her? If he wants to see changes why isn't he with her to see it?.

Separation is code for let me have the old affair, or start a new one. While LG is offering him fun family-based support for this abandonment on the side, there is no reason for him not to play around.

He didn't have an affair phone, oddly enough. Sure, maybe he does now, but he didn't.

Why isn't he with me full time? I don't know if I should LET him come back if he wants to... 1- reason- the people I live with HATE him, 2- I still need time to work on myself without him being here all the time, 3- Dr. H also suggested that when we do start to reconcile, to do it more from afar, not jump right back into it (because of my depression and everything).

I have only been back in our state of residence for a few days.

I understand what you are saying about separation being code...

He has scars to prove that I was abusive.... I think deep down, he wants recovery, but I don't know how to get him to admit it to himself or to me.. You can't MAKE someone do that.. and if he does just want divorce, telling him i want no contact is just giving him that.. maybe..

again, I DO have a Plan B letter written, and it is in my bag for when I see him...

and omg I wouldn't stay in this place until I was 45... I would be done WAY before that! I'm sorry you were in this place for so long, it must really have been difficult for you.

Thanks LG. The longer you stay in it, the more beaten down you become. I just stopped doing anything, living too. I identified with those words when you wrote them. What happens is a new level of just not living that you probably can't anticipate. I really never saw that I was just letting my life, myself, my dreams, my goals, my desires go. I just did it. So, if you stay in it much longer, without the changes needed on BOTH of your parts, you will fall further. It gets harder to leave then. The old me would have said the same words you wrote above. But, I did stay. I hope you heed all of this advice and warnings before you too sink too low. You have an advantage. You are already getting help to rise above this!!!! I am very happy that you have found this support.

What about my suggestion about asking him to write the NC now?

oh, he's out with his brother today (who lives 5 hours away, and is visiting), and they're getting pretty intoxicated... not exactly a good day for the letter writing.

So when will you be going into Plan B? And what is the delay?

Do you have an IM? What does your letter say?

The delay is my confusion.

When will I go into Plan B? I don't know. I was into going into it, and then when we spent time together, it was the most relaxed that it has been in a year, possibly (which is WAY before the A started). I'm confused, scared, and there's advice I am getting from all different sources (not asked-for, necessarily...).

yes, I have an IM.

The letter is pretty much identical to the one in the book, but it includes things that we liked to do together.

You are confused because you are following the "plan" of a person who has failed you time and time again. In other words you are shopping for opinions on other forums instead of following Dr. Harley's advice?

Once again, it comes back to the problem of you following "Plan L" and ignoring the professional advice of a clinical psychologist.

I see you headed for a very bad place becuase you are in the bad habit of following your feelings and then justifying them with your verbal skills. Instead of using logic and reason to guide your path, you are going by your feelings.

That is why a 29 year old adult woman lives in her parent's basement with no job, no car, no drivers license and is completely dependent on an undependable man.

You are not accustomed to using logic and reason in your deicsions and outside observers can see the poor judgement involved.

I agree LG that you should follow Dr. Harley's advice about going into Plan B now. Dr. Harley specifically told you to not to talk to your WH and to enter Plan B.

LG,
I know some of this is so very difficult to take. You are just too close to the situation, and to emotionally invested in the situation to see how important this advice is. I hope that you can see that just in these last couple of pages of posts, you are making decisions based on your heart strings and fear. Look at it another way. This situation is calls for completely different skills than you have ever practiced in your marriage. You are at WAR. Please understand that. It may not "feel" right because you are not used to having to go against the grain. These "decisions in war" are none you are familiar with, so please just let your pre-conceived ideas go, let the ways you have always thought and coped go. Take on this war with the advice you are being given. You will see in time the wisdom behind it!!!

I am trying to catch up now, but I am amazed at the turn of events here on this thread. I heard your radio show and Dr Harley made it clear that you needed to Plan B and that you needed to focus on yourself and getting on your own two feet.

He even asked you for your feedback and you agreed with him wholeheartedly. From what I recall.

You know...every BS goes thru this. Plan B is change and it's scary and you don't want to let go. But consider what Dr Harley often says: Feelings will lead us astray. The ones who can resist doing what feels "good" or "easy" are the ones who truly recover...marriage or not.

Sure....you can shop around until you find someone to give you advice that you want to hear, but is that really what you want? I haven't heard any legitimate reasons for you to continue on in Plan A and to ignore Dr Harley's advice. So I have no idea why someone who advise you to do this. Can you tell us why this person/s is telling you to continue in Plan A?

I can tell you why. This "person" knows nothing about the dynamics at play here so it is easy to tell her what she wants to hear. After all, it is not THEIR ox getting gored so why do they care??

I don't see why you need to attack me as a person ML... you have no clue what I have been through in my life. No, I don't want to be in this situation. The reason we are here is because there was more hope in a job in this area than there was in my husband's last career. I was planning on going back to school when my daughter entered school, i was a stay at home mom before that. As far as living in the basement, we screwed up our credit when we were young, my husband was pretty much promised a part ownership of his father's company, and things didn't happen.

As far as not having a license, I was suicidal for a LONG TIME, and it was best I didn't have one than to have one and kill myself (or someone who was innocent). Why didn't I get help then? Because I was foolish, selfish, and blind.

I didn't come here to be mocked for my living situation, or my PAST decisions.

LG,
I have sympathy for what you are feeling and going through. My advice to you, right now..... if something that is said here is making you uncomfortable or angry even, see that there is most likely some truth in it. You might not like it, it might not be entirely the whole situation, but you will always find truth in it. I had a hard time at first with the blunt, honest truth, but LG, there is so much truth in it. Please don't let any pride or ego get in the way of seeing the truth behind the words people are trying to share with you. The upfrontness of ML's words are to wake you UP!!!!!! We really are here for you LG. Don't push us away - even if we say something you don't like. ALWAYS find the silver lining, OK?

LG, I'm the exact same age as you. I'd like to try and view Mel's advice as that of a woman who is a heck of a lot older and wiser than you. You have several older and wiser women with recovered marriages trying to counsel you, and you're still resisting it.

I get why. You really do think that you are refusing to draw the line because you think he will just come back eventually and you will put this all behind you. You fear proper separation because you would rather remain in a bad marriage rather than get divorced.

Someone with your history of depression and suicidal ideation is at the highest risk when allowing yourself to be continually exposed to a spouse who has no intention of recovery. If you won't do it for yourself, will you at least consider it for the child who going to watch her mother fall apart because she is scared of real independence? REAL independence. A driver's license or school is nothing compared to saying "I will not be treated like crap!".

These are even more reasons that Dr. Harley advised you to go to Plan B.

Dr. Harley wants you to better yourself and be independent AWAY from your WH. He wants you to get your depression under control which Dr. Harley advised medication.

You need to be away from your WH and work on YOU!

I won't stand for being treated like crap, and I also don't want to treat him like crap.

I don't want to 'put this behind me'... I wouldn't take him back if he wasn't willing to work on things the MB way.

yes, I know my situation is awful.. I'm not blind to that. I know I played my part in getting here. AND I am working on getting out of it, things can't just happen overnight, as much as I tried for them to.

I know a couple who will let me and my daughter stay at their house for a while, but I need my license first. As I do that, I will get a job, etc. There is no public transportation near me, I have no family, and my friends don't live close. I tried to get housing, and couldn't.

i WAS scared of independence, but now I want it, it's just all working against me... no matter how hard i try.

I hear you, LG! As BS, we are all more or less scared of independence. WH and I lived on our own in a different country from our early 20s, and I thought I am independent, but to the point that I have to live without my husband, to raise the 4yr old and 5 month old by myself, I AM scared. But, really, we don't have other choices. Living with WH with no intention of recovery is a torture everyday! You might find it intimidating living on your own, but once you start get prepared for it bit by bit, you will be ready.

It's not a matter of being intimidating, it's a matter of there's no possible way I can afford it (there's no possible way he can afford it, either, right now). Even with both of us working, it would be impossible.

Every single part of your situation indicates that you should be in Plan B.

Did you know that even if you were living in your own home with a lot of these issues resolved (job $$ etc) that Dr Harley typically advises a woman to move to Plan B when the WH has left the house?

There is absolutely ZERO reason for you to stay in Plan A.

~In fact, it wouldn't be Plan A - it would become Plan C, Plan Confusion or Chaos and is the most likely to lead to divorce.

~It would cause your mental health and general well-being to continue to deteriorate.

~This would be bad for your daughter - she needs at least one HEALTHY and WHOLE parent, especially given that the other is a wayward.

~In the case that you do move forward with the M at some point in the future, all the LB$ withdrawals from your WH will make it all that much harder for you to recover. BW who are desperate to keep their M don't see that big picture the way that we do.

~Focusing on your WH takes your focus off what you need to be doing for yourself and your child NOW.

To reiterate: Dr Harley doesn't think your M has a shot until you are able to stand on your own two feet - and that you need to be in Plan B in order to accomplish that. Makes perfect sense to me and it did to you until you picked the crackpipe up again (contact with your WH).

It should be noted that I got the sense that even if you get on your own two feet, that Dr Harley would not advise a reconciliation until you and your WH have demonstrated that you both have made changes so that you two don't just fall back into bad habits all over again.

You have gotten a very detailed plan from the BEST. All we can do is encourage you implement that advice. Nobody here is going to pat your back while you just go off and do your own thing. Sorry.

First off, I didn't attack you. And secondly, I am not in the LEAST BIT concerned about what you have been through. I am concerned about what you are GOING TO DO WITH YOUR LIFE. See, I came from a much worse background than you so I know there is no reason for you to be sitting in your mothers basement as an adult woman. We are trying to help you become an independent ADULT and the first step is ending your unhealthy dependency on your husband.

This is not true. Your husband has been treating you like an unpleasant barnacle for a long time. You have allowed this to happen.

I would be extremely depressed if I were in your shoes. Your depression will alleviate when you cut him out of your life and start working on being an accountable adult.

You don't know how he did or did not treat me..

I'm sorry you had a bad life...

I have no clue how to start BEING an "accountable adult" if I can't even get a place to live.

Actually I do. He has abandoned you.


Then what is your plan?

you don't know how he treated me before that, though.

We are in the present though.

and if I focus on the affair and ONLY the affair, I wouldn't see anything in him that is good - even the good things I see when I see him.

All husbands were great at sometime. You wish to subject yourself to no remorse or action towards recovery because he was a good guy once? Lonelygal, he's out drinking and who know what instead of seeking forgiveness on one knee. You let the past cripple the present on so many things. It blinds you to reality of your situation

And that is great. The prescribed plan is Plan B. Are you going to take the advice or not?

uhh.. he wasn't just great 'at one point', he tolerated my abuse for 8 years...

Yes, he screwed up, and I consider us to be pretty even now.. his abuse is equal to mine, if you want to think in those terms.

I also have no problem with him drinking with his brother, as I've said before, his family fully supports our marriage. I don't want him begging for anything from me. I want things to be MUTUAL, we hurt EACH OTHER.

I do want remorse and action towards recovery from him, BECAUSE of who he is. I am not letting this define him as a person, just like I don't want my abusiveness to define me as a person. I am worth more than that.

Were you this argumentative and contrary with your husband too?

worse..

Well, you are using your abusive past as an excuse for him to treat you poorly. You don't even know what normal and healthy is, and that is your compass guiding you.

He wasn't great for tolerating your abuse. He's the same as any other person who has no concept of what normal and healthy is. I suspect you think you have no right to actually take a stand because of the past. Again, there us that past again. Blind to the future though

You are not ready to get healthy, I can see that.

1- I do know what healthy is, and I know that we weren't. in the past, I have said "I'm not as bad as..." and used other couples as an example, which was awfully wrong, but I do know what healthy is (now).

2- no, he was wrong for tolerating my abuse. If he would have stood up to me, we might have worked on our issues (individually and together).

3- I do believe I have a right to take a stand.

4- I am learning how to get healthy in my own life, in the present. I am learning how to process my emotions, and do what I need to do.

5- I do NOT think it is excusable for him to have had an affair, but research has helped me to understand WHY he got to that point, rather than just being angry at him and blaming ONLY him. As the Plan B letter sample states, "I apologize to you for MY PART in creating an environment...."

So what is the plan?

There is a pastor couple who might be offering up a room... i might take that, but I need my license first.

LG,

Sometimes it is hard to forgive yourself when the realization of just how bad some things you have done yourself are and have been. I think we all behave in ways that hurt our marriages. I am glad that you realize that you had a part in the demise of your marriage. HOWEVER, that does not give him permission to cheat on you, ever!! You may have given him reasons to be unhappy in the marriage, but that didn't give him license to cheat on you. Please let that one wash over you.

You may have handled many, many things wrong. The good thing is that NOW, you know better!! You are learning from those mistakes, trying to make changes to better yourself. One day at a time, LG. Also, always remember, tomorrow is a new day. Keep on working on yourself. I love the saying, "When you know better, you do better." That applies here!! You just continue busting your butt on this. Be who you are supposed to be! I tell myself to grow up all the time. If you are handling things immaturely, face it, admit it, time to grow up!! It won't all change overnight, but you will be SO much happier with yourself in a few weeks, in a couple months, a year from now!!! Allow growth, listen and learn from others. I have not read anything that has been written to you that is not true for you, me and most of us who have gotten lost b/c we couldn't cope with hurt in our lives. Don't get mad at any of us! Take it!!! Own it!! Overcome it!! That is the way to better yourself. Again, remember, there is truth in it!!!

(I agree that no matter what I did, there was no reason to cheat. I find it completely unacceptable. I was just saying that I understand it, not that I agree by any means). I have also been in the position where I debated it (but I didn't do it, but if I was in a situation where it was possible, I might have)

I wasn't mad.. I just think that making someone feel like they are the scum of the earth is counter-productive sometimes, especially when that person has already felt that way, and is working on things to NOT feel that way.

Did you ever get tested for STD/I?

I didn't have sex with him after he had sex with her.

You didn't even know there was an affair. So how do you know what date it started?

You should get tested for your own well being.

You're right, I didn't know there was an affair, but when he did tell me, he said when it was.

I'll get tested anyway, though.

Good, because as you know you can't trust him.

LG, I hope you can eventually see that no one is trying to make you feel like scum of the earth. It is just that the words speak things you didn't see, didn't want to see, or haven't faced, or lied to yourself about. It was so very difficult at first for me to hear some of these kinds of things too. The toughest part is getting through the denial, breaking yourself out of your own abused fog, your depression, your way of thinking that really is not healthy for you. It is SCARRY too!! That is why I keep telling you to find the truth that exists in the words. Mel L. has been doing this for a long time, she is very good and she calls it like she see's it. It hurts, I know, but face it. Whether anything we say on here is correct in every nuance, I can tell you that the vets here KNOW where our denial is. They KNOW what we need to do. We tell them they are wrong, they then shoot brutally straight with us b/c that is what we actually need them to do. We don't like it, but that is what we need them to do to "break" us from our fog - wake us up!! The longer you stay in denial, quibble over the advice, split hairs, the longer you don't find the truth that is in those words, the longer you will stay in your "prison." Do you see once ML read your responses that showed you were listening, she immediately went into guiding you to what you need to do next?

You NEED to plan B! I know you are scared. So am I!!!! It is the toughest decision I think I have ever had to face. This is the crucial time where he will break you down much quicker than before. Get away from him!!! He ONLY has a chance with you if he does all the things that he should do. If he doesn't, then other things are more important to him, and YOU deserve better than that. You can't make him be a man, or do anything for that matter, but you CAN choose to create the kind of life that you want. No one said it would be easy, but it will be so worth it.

Not at all. However if you're asking us what to do, we're going to point at your very large in-pile. There is some very productive work to get going in your life. Work you will be really proud of once done.

Self-care, is all we are advising. Take care of you and close the door on the cheating so that can resolve itself, if at all possible. Not only are you making that situation worse with contact but you don't have time for it.

You don�t have time to babysit his parenting time. You don't have time for his neglect. You don't have time to chat with him, read emails or for his calls. You certainly don't have time to sit around thinking about the marriage. OR him. You have a whole new life to build. You have a lot to do!

So that's what Dr H advised, and that's what all of us who took his advice, advise.

But if you don't want to, we won't make you.

I have no interest in twisting your arm up your back and this is my last word on the subject. The action and resulting consequence is yours to choose.

Just try and appoint a guardian for your child before you start who isn't a wayward or abusive. If you aren't going to take care of yourself, she will need one.

If you find Plan C is making you more depressed then we will still be here if you want to talk MB.

( I would have ADORED it if ML had appeared on my thread when I showed up here. She has a lot of experience to share, I've never seen her give wrong advice. She has to choose her threads and spend her time wisely)

I think I could have saved my marriage if I had had the support of people like Mel that are posting to you. But MB teaches us how to have more functional relationships (with everyone but especially with your spouse). But having discovered the magic formula, it would have been harder to go back to what I now see was a compromised relationship.

You may decide that the relationship you had with WH which seems so great was in fact rather dysfunctional once you have the Plan B glasses on. Then you will be able to make a choice. Work together to make it healthy or tear it up and start again. Those things we freely choose are the best things.

Oh, I know it was dysfunctional. Before this happened (and even before I came on here), I knew there were faults, but I wasn't quite sure that they were THAT bad. I saw them on both ends, but didn't care enough to change anything, I suppose (or I was blind, I don't know, maybe both)

I can see the good and the bad now. I can also see the new me, with the help that I am getting, as well as the independence that I am creating (I know the living situation is a big one, but I am honestly trying everything that I can, and there isn't much I can do, so I am making the best out of what I have).

I wouldn't want the relationship we had, I would want a new one - I would WANT to cook, clean, control my anger and my emotions. I would want to drive us around, do whatever needs to be done during the day. I would even want a job as my daughter is in school. I DON'T want the relationship we had, because I KNOW it wasn't healthy. I do see H working on his end, too, which is good - he has never held a job, and now he's working on becoming part owner of a financial business, that's huge on his end.

...and no, I haven't completely decided against Plan B... as I said, I have it with me for next time I see him. I am going to talk with him first, and see where he stands with everything, but I do have it written (which was a huge step for me), and it's in my bag.

Remember, only believe his actions, not his words!!! You set your boundaries very high in terms of what you need and expect of him. He shot that to hellsbells with many of his selfish decisions. You have a lot of work to do, but don't forget he does too. AND, you have to make sure that he meets your needs there.

Yes, I completely agree. I believe few of his words right now (I mean, as far as anything pertaining to us, or to OW).

I'm not sure of my boundaries right NOW, but I have a pretty high set if we reconcile ever.

Yes, he was selfish, and so was I. We BOTH need to work on our issues, and meeting each others' needs, as well as our own. (and no, the affair is not acceptable, no matter what I did).

Let us know when you want to implement Dr Harley's advice.

LG,

Have you even heard from him?

Are you ready to enter Plan B now?

yes, I have heard from me. He wants to be friends with me. His pain from my abuse is strong, but he is willing to meet with me soon to discuss what happened (on both ends).

Typical. Gaslighting & cake-eating.

Agree!

Yeah....My guess is that Dr Harley is hoping that if LG gets stronger on her own and gains some emotional distance, she would be much less likely to be manipulated by this WH. Sigh.

Discuss? On both ends?

You couldn't make it up could you? It's like meeting up with a rapist to discuss what happened. On both ends. Good grief.

If he isn't going to act, repay or heal, there is nothing to discuss.

We did not have the talk, but it accidentally came up a little...

He admitted that his A was unacceptable. He is not open to reconciliation, b/c of his own pain. I made sure he knew about my pain, and my intention on reconciling. I made sure he knew that I think we both need healing. We agreed to not discuss it yet. He has turned off his emotions. I made it a point to say that the discussion cannot happen until 1- he feels something, and 2- he is willing to heal.

He has physical scars all over his body from me. I am doing my part to recover from being that awful person. He can now admit that he was wrong in having the A, and that even though I hurt him, it's not justified.

OK, good luck with all that.

Reconciliation typically doesn't work when the husband is not committed and all-in. Ultimately it is usually extremely hard on the wife.

A lot of that wasn't actually too hard on me, because I did (and do) have a great counselor. She's wonderful and I couldn't be more grateful for her.


Markos, what do you suggest? I remember reading yours and your wife's posts a long time ago, and thinking you guys were awesome in how you made it through (I'm pretty sure it was yours, maybe not though)

Probably Plan B, right? I am currently in Plan B...

I agree. Let go of the guilt of what you believe to be your abuse of your WH, and put it in terms in your own frame of reference, of what he is doing to you now, in his behavior.

His affair has more markedly abused your love and trust of him than anything you possibly could have done to him emotionally or physically in the past.

I see you have internalized his emotional abuse of you and excused his abhorrent behavior because of your past physical abuse of him. You must be more fair to yourself.

It is his thoughtlessness, not yours, that is causing you pain now. Your recovery is dependent on your internal strength.

What steps can you take now?
Please listen to others who have been there.

I agree about becoming stronger inside. I'm working through that. As I said, I have an amazing counselor. Today, I said to her the same thing I've said on here: I understand WHY he got to the point that he cheated, but it is still completely unacceptable and wrong, and was NO way to deal with our issues. It has hurt us both incredibly, and because of his own selfishness, pride, and guilt, is most likely what killed our marriage.
I am willing to fix my end of things (and am working on it, including housing), but he isn't willing. I didn't kill the marriage (if it's over for good), he did.

Willing and doing are two different things, regardless of how your WH feels you should be making the changes for you. I read you were going into Plan B but are still talking to him and its hurting you. That isn't Plan B, please re read Surviving the Affair and listen to your radio show. As a woman this Plan C (confusion) is very bad for your health. Do you listen to the radio show on a dail basis? He states this at least once a week about the importance of Plan B especially for females. Please follow the advice and stop picking and choosing what you feel like doing.

No, I WAS in plan c until recently. I had just gone into Plan B not too long ago (and he and i are not talking)

and I know willing and doing are two different things. I am making the changes for me because through this I realised how much I needed to change.

When exactly did you go into Plan B, and why?
Did you give him a letter and close off all means of communication?
Who is your intermediary?

I suggest getting ultra-educated with what Dr. Harley suggests, and following it to the letter. Are you listening to the radio show daily?

Prisca suggests this approach:

plan B-
2 days ago, gave the letter that was almost identical to the first sample letter, a friend is the IM (a male friend). Why? i'm still not sure, because i know I can handle more..

When is the last time you've had any contact with your WH?

Have you worked on your anger management program?

contact with him the day I gave the letter.

Yes, I am working on anger management, as well as dealing with issues of my past in counseling, and how to process other emotions as well.

So you haven't had any contact with him at all for 2 days? What about when he calls your DD?

Or sees your DD? How are you handling that?

There seems to be a double standard at work here. If a man were physically abusing his wife, the board would really get behind the wife and tell her to leave the situation. Just because it's a woman abusing a man doesn't mean it's not real, destructive and horrifying.

I don't think we're helping this poster by minimizing her past actions.

Plan B is the right path for lonely in large part because this poster needs to experience some serious growth to work out her own issues, regardless of what happens to the marriage. As far as I can tell, the marriage is the last thing she needs to be concerned with.

Lonely, you might want to look for a domestic violence shelter in your area. They frequently offer counseling for perpetrators of abuse.

What is working on mean? What are you doing about it?

How can anyone give that advice to lg, when that isn't what's happening?

There isn't any marriage to leave! This couple are separated and if anything the board have tried to make them more so by telling lg not to attempt Plan C. Plan B can hardly be used as a vehicle of abuse.

All anyone has done is encourage her to take Dr H's advice, which does include working on herself.

Neediness, grasping dependence and feeling your spouse 'owes' you, or that you can make them do something is the seed of abuse. Plan C is smack bang in that ball park. Plan B however allows for free will.

Besides all of which, we would never say that anyone, male or female should be exposed indefinitely to an affair or unremorseful wayward. Regardless of what they had done.

There is no excuse and excuses don't cover over the trauma.

Zibbles,

Where do you see that? She talked to Dr. Harley on the radio and we are following his advice. She should be in Plan B like Dr. Harley advises.

I, for one, have pushed her on her anger management just like we would advise an Angry Husband.

If you see something that isn't inline with Dr. Harley's advice you should notify the MODS.

Is that what you are seeing?

I'm not sure what you are seeing. She needs to be in plan b because her husband will not commit to the marriage. That doesn't equate to minimizing abuse.

Dr. Harley doesn't necessarily give men the advice to leave a wife for abuse. Men and women are different, and his advice for them can be very different.

Okay - to try to stop your argument -

I am in anger management, individual counseling, and going to a psychiatrist. I am learning how to calm myself, take steps away from anger, etc.

I realised my abuse and started working on it on my own (not good enough). When he first left, I admitted it and put it out there that I am abusive and want to change. I grew up in an abusive home, and I don't want to be like my mother (a hateful, abusive, bitter person). From what I've been told, most abusers don't come to this realisation, so I'm proud that I got here, and I will keep working to go forward.

H. and I IDEALLY should have had a healing separation a while ago, or something along those lines, as I worked on my abuse, but neither of us thought of that, or really thought of doing anything to work on it.

I am in Plan B for 2 reasons - 1: to work on myself, 2: because H won't commit. (i put my daughter on the doorstep, and let my mother sit there with her while H picks her up).

(as far as phone calls, he calls, I answer and directly hand it to her. he hangs up. end of call)

You know this isn't Plan B, correct? Talking to him is not Plan B.


How are you handling drop off and pick ups? How are you not seeing him?

I don't talk to him. I click "answer" and immediately hand over the phone. No talking. No communication. Where is the talking in that? There is none.

I also just mentioned how he picks up DD. I am not seeing him because I am not there when he gets her.

Nobody here who has been in a true Plan B would do this.

zibbles, have you listened to the radio show in question?

If I don't, my daughter doesn't get to talk to her father, and that's wrong. I'm not doing that to her.

There is no home phone line where you live?

nope - not one that I am allowed to use, anyway (even though it's not me using it)

Huh. Well, I don't know what the solution is. I would advise you to brainstorm and keep doing so until you come up with some solution, because under these circumstances, I do not predict you will experience the emotional distance that Plan B affords.

As an aside, I have a gf that tried to Plan B her ex doing the same thing and, as I predicted, it was not successful.

Good luck.

There's this D. Lawyer near us that drives 3 maserati's (I know, crazy). Today, I was calling some in order to get a free consultation, and find out what percentage I should get now (and if H chooses D). It turns out that I accidentally contacted this guy (H and I always joked that he's the guy to go to). Although I still want reconciliation one day, if H decides to play dirty, he will NEVER be able to use this lawyer, and I will.

LG, you are still being emotionally manipulated by him, because you care what he thinks. That's not a real Plan B.

It would behoove you, if you are serious about Plan B, to cancel your cell phone number, replacing it with a new number exclusively for your daughter, so she can have contact with her Dad without you in the loop.

You must be more careful not to internalize his inducing guilt for events of the past that he has probably run by his OW for input to shape his perspective about your marriage. Don't kid yourself into thinking he's not telling OW everything you say. As long as he's talking to OW, there is no point in telling him anything. He won't let you off the hook until he STOPS letting OW tell him what to think about his marriage.

As for your past abuse of your WH, ask youself: Is he physically scarred from you? Has he lived in fear of your anger, terrorized, intimidated, scared? It sounds as though he's magnifying your past faults to justify his affair.

The less contact you have with WH, the better off you will be.

1- My daughter is to young to answer the phone on her own, and like I said - I do NOT talk to him when he calls (not even to say hi)

2- How am I telling him things if I'm not talking to him? You said there is no point in telling him anything as long as he is talking to OW (which, he more than likely isn't, but that's beside the point).

Yes, some of his views on our marriage are skewed, and the reason they're skewed doesn't matter to me BECAUSE:

3- My past abuse of him: he has at least 2 scars (one that should have had stitches), I gave him a huge lump once, and yes, he was terrified at times. There were some times when he yelled back, and I would make it seem like he was the abuser. There were 2 times that he held me back, and I threw myself on the floor in an attempt to blame him. Gradually, I got less and less abusive, but it wasn't until he left that I started going for individual counseling and anger management. Magnifying my abuse? No, unfortunately, he isn't, I wish he was, though.

LG, I didn't mean to mischaracterize your situation . Its hard to imagine any kind of spousal abuse causing the level of psychological and physiological pain amd anguish that an affair causes to a betrayed wife (you).
I understand you are in plan B. I hope you can heal.

Thanks..

It sucks.. haha

Nope, it's amazing. You just need to get through your own withdrawal....

Update:

He was starting to come around more, and I gave him the Plan C. He then went back to OW, and is in a relationship.

I'm fine with it all.

I have a job that begins next month (better than any he has ever had), and they offer free schooling (in an area I want), awesome benefits, etc. I am going to be moving out in August. I have social service things until then.

Husband doesn't see daughter... he cancels on her constantly, and she seems to know she won't really see her 'daddy' anymore. I only feel sadness for her now.

You would benefit immensely from Plan B

Yes, that's what happens when you are in Plan C (which is just not following Dr Harley's plan A or Plan B) the wayward will go back to OW and your marriage is more likely to lead to divorce for allowing more cake eating.

wait, I meant Plan B... I have the names mixed up. Sorry.

Do you have an IM?

Yes, I have an IM, but it doesn't really matter at this point, b/c he has nothing to do with our daughter anyway.

So when you are communicating about your DD, it's always done through an IM? You don't have any contact with your WH?

That is correct.

When I started doing this, he went back with OW.

How do you know he went back with OW?

Yes.

How?

My daughter told me... she said she was with him and he wasn't playing with her, he was kissing <insert name here>.

She has a unique name, and someone looked her up on FB, and found out the date they started dating again.

I'm fine with it all.. except things relating to our daughter, of course.

The time he saw our daughter after that, I was informed that he kept looking towards the car as if someone else was in there. He's also open about it with a few mutual friends now (they're not happy..)

Going back with OW often leads to a breakdown in the affair.
Now he must have all of his needs met by her.
Have you done a background check on OW? Many betrayed spouses have obtained court orders that their children cannot be around the adultery partner

Did you ever expose to her family and post her on www.cheaterville.com ? This is what you posted a few weeks ago:

It would seem as though you now have access to the OW's Facebook page information.

Have you copied the contacts and done your exposure yet?

LTL

yes, i contacted her family/friends, and the fact that he is married was known when they started dating again... It's publicly posted on her FB by one of her friends, even!

It seems fairly common in her family, some friends are bothered by it, but she doesn't care what they think.