And that is great. The prescribed plan is Plan B. Are you going to take the advice or not?

uhh.. he wasn't just great 'at one point', he tolerated my abuse for 8 years...

Yes, he screwed up, and I consider us to be pretty even now.. his abuse is equal to mine, if you want to think in those terms.

I also have no problem with him drinking with his brother, as I've said before, his family fully supports our marriage. I don't want him begging for anything from me. I want things to be MUTUAL, we hurt EACH OTHER.

I do want remorse and action towards recovery from him, BECAUSE of who he is. I am not letting this define him as a person, just like I don't want my abusiveness to define me as a person. I am worth more than that.

Were you this argumentative and contrary with your husband too?

worse..

Well, you are using your abusive past as an excuse for him to treat you poorly. You don't even know what normal and healthy is, and that is your compass guiding you.

He wasn't great for tolerating your abuse. He's the same as any other person who has no concept of what normal and healthy is. I suspect you think you have no right to actually take a stand because of the past. Again, there us that past again. Blind to the future though

You are not ready to get healthy, I can see that.

1- I do know what healthy is, and I know that we weren't. in the past, I have said "I'm not as bad as..." and used other couples as an example, which was awfully wrong, but I do know what healthy is (now).

2- no, he was wrong for tolerating my abuse. If he would have stood up to me, we might have worked on our issues (individually and together).

3- I do believe I have a right to take a stand.

4- I am learning how to get healthy in my own life, in the present. I am learning how to process my emotions, and do what I need to do.

5- I do NOT think it is excusable for him to have had an affair, but research has helped me to understand WHY he got to that point, rather than just being angry at him and blaming ONLY him. As the Plan B letter sample states, "I apologize to you for MY PART in creating an environment...."

So what is the plan?

There is a pastor couple who might be offering up a room... i might take that, but I need my license first.

LG,

Sometimes it is hard to forgive yourself when the realization of just how bad some things you have done yourself are and have been. I think we all behave in ways that hurt our marriages. I am glad that you realize that you had a part in the demise of your marriage. HOWEVER, that does not give him permission to cheat on you, ever!! You may have given him reasons to be unhappy in the marriage, but that didn't give him license to cheat on you. Please let that one wash over you.

You may have handled many, many things wrong. The good thing is that NOW, you know better!! You are learning from those mistakes, trying to make changes to better yourself. One day at a time, LG. Also, always remember, tomorrow is a new day. Keep on working on yourself. I love the saying, "When you know better, you do better." That applies here!! You just continue busting your butt on this. Be who you are supposed to be! I tell myself to grow up all the time. If you are handling things immaturely, face it, admit it, time to grow up!! It won't all change overnight, but you will be SO much happier with yourself in a few weeks, in a couple months, a year from now!!! Allow growth, listen and learn from others. I have not read anything that has been written to you that is not true for you, me and most of us who have gotten lost b/c we couldn't cope with hurt in our lives. Don't get mad at any of us! Take it!!! Own it!! Overcome it!! That is the way to better yourself. Again, remember, there is truth in it!!!

(I agree that no matter what I did, there was no reason to cheat. I find it completely unacceptable. I was just saying that I understand it, not that I agree by any means). I have also been in the position where I debated it (but I didn't do it, but if I was in a situation where it was possible, I might have)

I wasn't mad.. I just think that making someone feel like they are the scum of the earth is counter-productive sometimes, especially when that person has already felt that way, and is working on things to NOT feel that way.

Did you ever get tested for STD/I?

I didn't have sex with him after he had sex with her.

You didn't even know there was an affair. So how do you know what date it started?

You should get tested for your own well being.

You're right, I didn't know there was an affair, but when he did tell me, he said when it was.

I'll get tested anyway, though.

Good, because as you know you can't trust him.

LG, I hope you can eventually see that no one is trying to make you feel like scum of the earth. It is just that the words speak things you didn't see, didn't want to see, or haven't faced, or lied to yourself about. It was so very difficult at first for me to hear some of these kinds of things too. The toughest part is getting through the denial, breaking yourself out of your own abused fog, your depression, your way of thinking that really is not healthy for you. It is SCARRY too!! That is why I keep telling you to find the truth that exists in the words. Mel L. has been doing this for a long time, she is very good and she calls it like she see's it. It hurts, I know, but face it. Whether anything we say on here is correct in every nuance, I can tell you that the vets here KNOW where our denial is. They KNOW what we need to do. We tell them they are wrong, they then shoot brutally straight with us b/c that is what we actually need them to do. We don't like it, but that is what we need them to do to "break" us from our fog - wake us up!! The longer you stay in denial, quibble over the advice, split hairs, the longer you don't find the truth that is in those words, the longer you will stay in your "prison." Do you see once ML read your responses that showed you were listening, she immediately went into guiding you to what you need to do next?

You NEED to plan B! I know you are scared. So am I!!!! It is the toughest decision I think I have ever had to face. This is the crucial time where he will break you down much quicker than before. Get away from him!!! He ONLY has a chance with you if he does all the things that he should do. If he doesn't, then other things are more important to him, and YOU deserve better than that. You can't make him be a man, or do anything for that matter, but you CAN choose to create the kind of life that you want. No one said it would be easy, but it will be so worth it.

Not at all. However if you're asking us what to do, we're going to point at your very large in-pile. There is some very productive work to get going in your life. Work you will be really proud of once done.

Self-care, is all we are advising. Take care of you and close the door on the cheating so that can resolve itself, if at all possible. Not only are you making that situation worse with contact but you don't have time for it.

You don�t have time to babysit his parenting time. You don't have time for his neglect. You don't have time to chat with him, read emails or for his calls. You certainly don't have time to sit around thinking about the marriage. OR him. You have a whole new life to build. You have a lot to do!

So that's what Dr H advised, and that's what all of us who took his advice, advise.

But if you don't want to, we won't make you.

I have no interest in twisting your arm up your back and this is my last word on the subject. The action and resulting consequence is yours to choose.

Just try and appoint a guardian for your child before you start who isn't a wayward or abusive. If you aren't going to take care of yourself, she will need one.

If you find Plan C is making you more depressed then we will still be here if you want to talk MB.

( I would have ADORED it if ML had appeared on my thread when I showed up here. She has a lot of experience to share, I've never seen her give wrong advice. She has to choose her threads and spend her time wisely)

I think I could have saved my marriage if I had had the support of people like Mel that are posting to you. But MB teaches us how to have more functional relationships (with everyone but especially with your spouse). But having discovered the magic formula, it would have been harder to go back to what I now see was a compromised relationship.

You may decide that the relationship you had with WH which seems so great was in fact rather dysfunctional once you have the Plan B glasses on. Then you will be able to make a choice. Work together to make it healthy or tear it up and start again. Those things we freely choose are the best things.

Oh, I know it was dysfunctional. Before this happened (and even before I came on here), I knew there were faults, but I wasn't quite sure that they were THAT bad. I saw them on both ends, but didn't care enough to change anything, I suppose (or I was blind, I don't know, maybe both)

I can see the good and the bad now. I can also see the new me, with the help that I am getting, as well as the independence that I am creating (I know the living situation is a big one, but I am honestly trying everything that I can, and there isn't much I can do, so I am making the best out of what I have).

I wouldn't want the relationship we had, I would want a new one - I would WANT to cook, clean, control my anger and my emotions. I would want to drive us around, do whatever needs to be done during the day. I would even want a job as my daughter is in school. I DON'T want the relationship we had, because I KNOW it wasn't healthy. I do see H working on his end, too, which is good - he has never held a job, and now he's working on becoming part owner of a financial business, that's huge on his end.

...and no, I haven't completely decided against Plan B... as I said, I have it with me for next time I see him. I am going to talk with him first, and see where he stands with everything, but I do have it written (which was a huge step for me), and it's in my bag.

Remember, only believe his actions, not his words!!! You set your boundaries very high in terms of what you need and expect of him. He shot that to hellsbells with many of his selfish decisions. You have a lot of work to do, but don't forget he does too. AND, you have to make sure that he meets your needs there.