Hi,
WW (40) and I have been married for 3 years and nine months as of the separation on September 1st. We have one child (3) together and she has 2 children from a previous marriage.
Early in August, she started hanging out with her cousin (age 21) who is an out lesbian. The cousin has been with us the past two summers because she was struggling (she is a musician) and we wanted to be supportive. Net/Net she developed a sexual relationship with her and the cousin is moving to the US (currently in the UK) to live with my wife and see where it goes.
WW and I had "normal" marital troubles. I struggle with depression, anxiety and lack of interest in sex due to work, kids, farm work, etc.
My wife is the one requesting the divorce. She is now convinced she is a lesbian (or at least Bi) and that her cousin is her "true love". She told me everything (that I already knew) when I confronted her in November. "It's never been like this before." "I never knew what love was until now." "She tells me I am the most beautiful woman in the world and it moves me."
We are currently in mediation to discuss the financial and custody issues. She has completely changed her personality, or let surface elements of her personality that were dormant. I have no idea, but she has basically turned into a teenager. Wants to "live life to its fullest and not miss out anymore." Somehow she wants to do this without giving up the kids or her business.
I have been struggling with this for months. I kept it pretty quiet, but she told her friends and family. The family reaction is mixed. Most think this is a horrible idea, but no one can really stop her. A few are supportive of the relationship (Love is love, don't you know).
I have been asking pastors and therapists about this situation. Generally speaking, there isn't much anyone can do. Anyone gone through this (or anything like this) before?
The cousin is here (or will be in a couple days on a tourist visa). I am sure she is looking for a visa and/or employment so that she can stay. They are currently living in a one bedroom cottage with the three kids. The first ex husband doesn't know anything about the affair with the cousin.
Any advice?
I have been asking pastors and therapists about this situation. Generally speaking, there isn't much anyone can do. Anyone gone through this (or anything like this) before?
Hi CAtles, welcome to Marriage Builders. I am sorry for the reasons that have brought you here. Please take a look at the "start here first" thread at the top of the forum and read through the links.
Generally speaking, lesbian affairs are the easiest to bust up because they are so fragile. I would read through the exposure thread and expose the affair. Affairs thrive on secrecy and fantasy and exposure ruins all that. That will be your greatest weapon in saving your marriage.
Catles,
You wrote, Generally speaking, there isn't much anyone can do.
That's the common path, the betrayed spouse goes into a corner and hides their head in their hands, never saying a word having no support and feeling powerless. This is the reverse victimization which is the result of most affairs.
However you don't have to play by the bullies rules, not this time, you are going to turn into a merciless good guy with a gun, and your gun is exposure so load up your clips and mow em down.
God Bless
Gamma
It's pretty much exposed. The cousin was here in the summer for a few weeks. Left in September. Wife went on two trysts of a week and now she is back to live.
All my friends know. Most of her friends and customers know, at least I think they do.
The issue here is more one of fantasy. Every time the cousin has been here she has been on vacation. Reality hasn't been involved. Now they are living in a one bedroom cottage with the three kids. Reality should set in soon.
It's pretty much exposed. The cousin was here in the summer for a few weeks. Left in September. Wife went on two trysts of a week and now she is back to live.
Have you personally informed her family? The cousin's parents? Anyone who was informed by your wife should be contacted by you. The reason is because a) waywards don't tell the truth and b) it will give you an opportunity to ask the person to support your marriage.
The issue here is more one of fantasy. Every time the cousin has been here she has been on vacation. Reality hasn't been involved. Now they are living in a one bedroom cottage with the three kids. Reality should set in soon.
I would do your best to keep your kids out of that sewer. They should not be exposed to her affair.
And I agree that reality will intrude. Timing that with a really comprehensive exposure will cause the affair to crumble.
The entire family knows. Both sides. The cousin's parents are supportive of the relationship (Love is love, don't you know). Personally, I think they just want her out from underfoot and 5000 miles away. The father has been married 5 times. Not exactly a poster child for relationship advice.
I waited for months to gather evidence and I have a pile. I confronted her in November and her reactions was "How do you know all this?!"
It's about as Jerry springer as you can get.
The entire family knows. Both sides. The cousin's parents are supportive of the relationship (Love is love, don't you know). Personally, I think they just want her out from underfoot and 5000 miles away. The father has been married 5 times. Not exactly a poster child for relationship advice.
Have you spoken to them personally? The cousins parents are supportive of adultery?
I waited for months to gather evidence and I have a pile. I confronted her in November and her reactions was "How do you know all this?!"
It's about as Jerry springer as you can get.
ouch! sounds like it.
I was told by my wife's mother (they live in the UK) and by other family members that he was the one that bought the ticket for the cousin to go to Florida for th tryst. Also the "Love is love" quote which I heard from several family members came from them. I also have evidence from text messages that they support this.
I haven't spoken to them directly but I have no reason to doubt it. It fits.
Sick, isn't it?
I was told by my wife's mother (they live in the UK) and by other family members that he was the one that bought the ticket for the cousin to go to Florida for th tryst. Also the "Love is love" quote which I heard from several family members came from them. I also have evidence from text messages that they support this.
I would speak to them yourself. They have likely been told a lie about how this all came about. I seriously doubt they were told that your WW is committing adultery and abandoning her children to pursue a lesbian affair. This is why it is so very important to get the correct news out there YOURSELF.
And sure, maybe they are degenerates who care nothing about their daughter, but that is unlikely. You should leave no stone unturned in looking for support.
I read it as she took their mutual child and is living with OW.
Is your child with you or her?
With her at the moment. OW just came back onto the scene.
With her at the moment. OW just came back onto the scene.
You should consult an attorney to prevent her from leaving the state with your child.
Why would you allow her to take the child(ren)?
I was told by my wife's mother (they live in the UK) and by other family members that he was the one that bought the ticket for the cousin to go to Florida for th tryst. Also the "Love is love" quote which I heard from several family members came from them. I also have evidence from text messages that they support this.
I haven't spoken to them directly but I have no reason to doubt it. It fits.
Sick, isn't it?
Unfortunately it sounds as if she got her version of the story in before you did. That is bad luck because now it leaves you fighting a defensive action. Added to that is the fact that this is a lesbian affair. She has presented this as 'coming out of the closet' whereas in truth it is just a garden variety sordid affair.
It does not mean you should not expose as far and wide as you can, it is just going to make your task harder and you will find some people have already decided to side with her but you will be really glad you did this.
Yes. Those were exactly my thoughts. This is an affair. Not some repressed coming our story.
Oh I am going to expose far and wide. Especially since I jus found out that rhey were spotted at the local grocery store holding hands.
Yes. Those were exactly my thoughts. This is an affair. Not some repressed coming our story.
Oh I am going to expose far and wide. Especially since I jus found out that rhey were spotted at the local grocery store holding hands.
Good.
Who is on your exposure list?
The few friends that we have in common that don't know. Her ex-husband.
Don't discount anyone (for exposure) you never really know who may support your M. It may be a good idea to seek legal advice re custody of your 3 yr old.
The few friends that we have in common that don't know. Her ex-husband.
And what about the OW's family? Her parents? Siblings?
The entire OW's family knows and is supportive of the affair/relationship between the cousins.
As I said before, their philosophy is "Love is Love". Personally, I think that the OW's family just wants her to come to the US and get her out from underfoot.
Of course, the destruction of our family and the collateral fallout both social and financial and the fact that this affair will most likely blow up within months as my wife is 40, has no money, no credit, no home, no skills except a failing horse business and the cousin is 21, no job, no visa (she is from the UK), no skills except singing (usually in bars), uses drugs and is sexually promiscuous. Add to this the fact that they are in a one bedroom cottage with the three kids and the reality that every time the cousin has come and/or been with my wife, she has been on vacation with no responsibility...
You never know what can happen, but I don't see a good way out of this for her.
She has no concept
the cousin is 21, no job, no visa (she is from the UK), no skills except singing (usually in bars), uses drugs and is sexually promiscuous.
Then your problem will solve itself because cousin-slag entered on a the visa waiver scheme on which she is not permitted to work so they will quickly starve. She will have to leave at the end of 90 days and will not be able to return for at least 90 days. If she visits more than twice in one year and she will be refused entry even as a tourist.
Even if you and your wife divorce (I hope you don't) and she marries cousin-slag it will be another three years or so before she can get a spousal greencard. The fling will be long dead by then.
By the way, if cousin-slag has any kind of criminal record, you can prevent her from setting foot in the country ever again by reporting fraudulent use of the visa waiver scheme.
The entire OW's family knows and is supportive of the affair/relationship between the cousins.
As I said before, their philosophy is "Love is Love". Personally, I think that the OW's family just wants her to come to the US and get her out from underfoot.
Of course, the destruction of our family and the collateral fallout both social and financial and the fact that this affair will most likely blow up within months as my wife is 40, has no money, no credit, no home, no skills except a failing horse business and the cousin is 21, no job, no visa (she is from the UK), no skills except singing (usually in bars), uses drugs and is sexually promiscuous. Add to this the fact that they are in a one bedroom cottage with the three kids and the reality that every time the cousin has come and/or been with my wife, she has been on vacation with no responsibility...
You never know what can happen, but I don't see a good way out of this for her.
She has no concept
But just a few days ago you said this.
I haven't spoken to them directly but I have no reason to doubt it. It fits.
So have you spoken to them?
Yes. I have communicated with them. They have been told and are still supportive of the affair.
They actually really like me but apparently "love is love" and damn the collateral damage and the ultimate futility of this relationship.
On another note, why does everyone say that lesbian affairs are so fragile?
I am not doubting it, but I keep hearing that on MB but I can't figure out the elements of why.
I am not discounting my own actions that made this affair possible. I struggled with anxiety and depression, never made her feel special (other than supporting her kids, family and business). I am relatively unemotional and she described me as "the most unselfish person I have ever known."
Funny, I thought love was all about unselfishness and considering other people, especially your spouse, above your own needs.
I know I screwed up, but this reaction is just so over the top. I do expect it to end now that they are living together. I just don't know what happens after that. I suppose it is possible that they will stay together longer term, but I can't imagine that happening.
On another note, why does everyone say that lesbian affairs are so fragile?
I am not doubting it, but I keep hearing that on MB but I can't figure out the elements of why.
Dr Harley is the clinical psychologist who founded Marriage Builders and this has been his clinical experience with lesbian affairs:
"I have treated same-sex affairs the way I treat heterosexual affairs. And the results are about the same. The biggest difference is that the BS usually gives up sooner because they feel they can't compete if their spouse is same-sex attracted. But if they stick it out, the affair usually dies a natural death in a relatively short time. Lesbian relationships last about half as long as gay relationships which last about half as long as heterosexual relationships. So there should be optimism when a spouse is in a lesbian relationship. "
I'm in a similar situation. In lesbian relationships, 3 years is considered long-term. They are notoriously volatile. Even on lesbian forums they'll tell you 1 year in a lesbian relationship is like 7 years in a heterosexual relationship. The old joke "What does a lesbian bring to their second date? A U-Haul truck" holds true in my wife's case. I believe the study Dr. Harley cites says that the average lesbian relationship lasts for 2 years. When you add the dynamics of an affair to that it's bound to fail sooner than the average affair.
Yeah, I suppose I should get some professional council from Dr. Harley on this.
Logic tells me that this is an affair with all its baggage and unrealistic expectations. What I need to do is figure out what I need to do to change my own behaviors so that either in this relationship (or another one if she insists on divorce), I don't make the same mistakes.
She has unrealistic expectations of a relationship. I had poor skills in meeting her needs. In retrospect, it was bound to blow up. I just wish the reaction didn't involve her 20 year old lesbian cousin.
Yeah, I suppose I should get some professional council from Dr. Harley on this.
He is not in private practice anymore. He has a couples online program for couples and he has a radio show. You can get free advice from him if you email his radio show. You can decide if you want to go on his show or he can just answer your questions via email. Just go to the radio link above.
Logic tells me that this is an affair with all its baggage and unrealistic expectations. What I need to do is figure out what I need to do to change my own behaviors so that either in this relationship (or another one if she insists on divorce), I don't make the same mistakes.
We can help you with this.
She has unrealistic expectations of a relationship. I had poor skills in meeting her needs.
What are her unrealistic expectations?
Not to thread jack, but thank you for that, Melody. I hadn't heard that one.
That was actually a quote from my therapist. My wife defines herself through other people fully meeting her every need. When they don't, she gets hurt, disappointed and unfulfilled.
I totally admit to screwing up on the emotional side of the house. I kept giving and giving (she even said to me, you are the most unselfish person I have ever known), but my "love language" was Acts of Service. Hers was physical touch and..well..basically all the other ones.
I gave and I gave everything. supported her business with money, time and watching kids, bought a house with her parents so that we could help take care of them, loved her children as my own, worked to provide so that she could focus on growing her business. She had a miscarriage a year ago october and that seemed to be a "bell" going off in her head. She just wants to "live life" now and not "miss out" on anything, whatever that means.
She said she fell out of love with me months ago. 3.9 years is a pretty short amount of time to do that.
That was actually a quote from my therapist. My wife defines herself through other people fully meeting her every need. When they don't, she gets hurt, disappointed and unfulfilled.
People get married to get their needs met so this makes perfect sense. Most therapists don't understand the dynamics of what makes a marriage works so they have unrealistic ideas about marriage. For example, people fall in love when their needs are met for a certain amount of time each week. Therapists don't understand how that works.
I totally admit to screwing up on the emotional side of the house. I kept giving and giving (she even said to me, you are the most unselfish person I have ever known), but my "love language" was Acts of Service. Hers was physical touch and..well..basically all the other ones.
The REASON your wife fell out of love is because you were not meeting her intimate emotional needs for 15+ hours per week. But it also sounds like you were giving her unconditional, sacrificial love:
It tends to give such people unrealistic expectations of entitlement�that they should be cared for, regardless of their willingness to care in return. Neglect and abuse characterize many marriages based on unconditional love.
She said she fell out of love with me months ago. 3.9 years is a pretty short amount of time to do that.
The reasons for that could be:
1. she met someone who met her needs better than you
2. you were not spending 15+ hours per week meeting each others intimate emotional needs
3. you were lovebusting her
Which of those do you think apply?
As far as lovebusters go, independent behavior for sure. She said "you never let me take care of you". I struggle with depression and anxiety and I never wanted to trouble someone else with my problems.
We absolutely didn't spend enough time together and certainly not 15 hours. She said at the end that "I found my emotional outlet at the barn" where she has a business. Unfortunately, I kept enabling that behavior because I thought that was what she wanted.
The cousin came last summer and I think she saw in her her own youth (they look a lot alike). She had a bad first marriage where she always said she "lost her youth". She is partying like a rock star these days and has largely abandoned all her responsibilities at the big house with her parents. Her business is suffering because she isn't doing it well. The cousin is her reliving her youth and getting her emotional/physical needs met. This year it all came to a head.
Sir,
Don't go to a therapist to discuss your marriage.
You will not find good guidance
Yeah, it was necessary at the beginning as I needed someone to talk to about this. Now I just focus on my own emotional problems at my sessions.
I am committed to keep trying for my marriage. Hopefully, you all can help.
Just to add to the pile, we would be in Plan B, if I understand it correctly. I have little to no communication with WW except when we meet for mediation and child duties. If all goes according to plan, she will file for divorce after the one year of being separated.
She has declared herself a lesbian regardless of whether or not the cousin stays in the picture. She said she started to fall in love with the cousin last summer but didn't realize it until this year in August. She has no remorse about the ongoing affair although she does say she feels regret for hurting me.
The total time spent together as lovers of the cousin and my wife is approximately 1 month. 2 weeks in the summer. One week in North Carolina and One week overseas. They text and Skype constantly when they are not together.
I need to ask: is there any hope here at all or am I just fooling myself?
Just to add to the pile, we would be in Plan B, if I understand it correctly. I have little to no communication with WW except when we meet for mediation and child duties. If all goes according to plan, she will file for divorce after the one year of being separated.
I would not go into Plan B. And what you describe above is not Plan B. Plan B is a completely dark separation with no contact at all.
She has declared herself a lesbian regardless of whether or not the cousin stays in the picture. She said she started to fall in love with the cousin last summer but didn't realize it until this year in August. She has no remorse about the ongoing affair although she does say she feels regret for hurting me.
This means nothing except she is in love with the OW. Like Harley pointed out, lesbian affairs are the easiest to bust up beucase they are so fragile. It doesn't matter what she "declares" while she is a fogged out wayward. When the affair crumbles her feelings will change.
I need to ask: is there any hope here at all or am I just fooling myself?
Yes there is hope.
Ok. I will read about plan a.
Thanks. This is hard. I appreciate the support.
Oh good. Just got the "Stop telling the kids that you love me. There is no hope for reconciliation."
Blah
She's telling your kids that because she's aware it makes her look bad. It's very typical for the WS to get angry about the BS not giving up.
Oh good. Just got the "Stop telling the kids that you love me. There is no hope for reconciliation."
Blah
Sir, you post sporadically so it's difficult to offer advice without knowing your circumstances.
I thought the children were with the wife out of town (with her lesbian lover cousin).
Where are the kids and where is your wife?
All the kids are with her in a cottage two miles away from my home. The cousin just came back into town three weeks ago and is living there with the wife and the kids.
One of the children is fully mine. The other two are stepkids. I get my son overnight twice a week and every other weekend according to our current arrangement.
My contact with my wife is exclusively though text message. I see her rarely and speak to her almost never and when I do it is almost entirely concerning kids and finances. She had an extended discussion with me on "it is our job to prepare the kids for their new lives. Telling our son that you still love me and want me to come home is unfair and damaging and gives false hope. There is no chance for reconciliation. "
We are almost done with the separation agreement. She is currently extra angry with me concerning finances and this bit about telling the kids that I still love mommy.
All the kids are with her in a cottage two miles away from my home. The cousin just came back into town three weeks ago and is living there with the wife and the kids.
One of the children is fully mine. The other two are stepkids. I get my son overnight twice a week and every other weekend according to our current arrangement.
My contact with my wife is exclusively though text message. I see her rarely and speak to her almost never and when I do it is almost entirely concerning kids and finances. She had an extended discussion with me on "it is our job to prepare the kids for their new lives. Telling our son that you still love me and want me to come home is unfair and damaging and gives false hope. There is no chance for reconciliation. "
We are almost done with the separation agreement. She is currently extra angry with me concerning finances and this bit about telling the kids that I still love mommy.
Why on earth did you AGREE to only seeing your son every other weekend?
It isn't every other weekend. It's every other weekend and Tuesday/Thursday every week overnight. Its Shared Physical and Legal custody. I have consulted several legal opinions on this. There are two stepkids in the mix as well that she has custody of.
Separating the kids from each other isn't going to fly according to several attorneys. Since I cannot control the visitation or the custody of the stepkids, their presence in my son's life and their visitation with their dad is a significant factor. I wanted full custody, couldn't get that. I wanted 50% custody, couldn't get that. She agreed to shared physical and shared legal. Until he gets older, that is the best I can do.
What did you think of their advice?
They were amazingly kind and it was good to hear that situations like this have happily resolved themselves. It's all just so insane. Not just an affair, not just an affair with a 20 year old, not just an affair with a 20 year old cousin, but an affair with a 20 year old female cousin that I have helped and loved over the past two years.
People really do lose their minds over affair partners. It's coming up on the six month mark since we have separated. People abandon their faith, their morals...everything.
If she did come back, it would be difficult to trust again after all the lies and falsehoods. I guess I will cross that bridge if it comes to that.
Does the cottage that the children are housed in meet the housing requirements of 3 children and two adults?
Well its been several months since I posted. I thought I would give an update to the group. The soon to be ex wife (She is filing on September 1st) has proposed to the 21 year old lesbian first cousin and she has accepted. They will be getting married after the divorce is final.
Sometimes, I guess, you just have to let them go.
Uh, why doesn't she file today? There is nothing stopping her.
More importantly, why do YOU file today.
My state has a one year waiting period. She can file on the year anniversary of our being separated.
Does the cottage that the children are housed in meet the housing requirements of 3 children and two adults?
Get serious about custody.
What about this question i posted weeks ago?
Sorry to hear this CatLes. If the wayward won't end the affair and files themselves, divorce is really your only option.
What are you doing to help handle the stress of this situation?
Are you working out at all? Any friends or family in your area?