Can I make my spouse change? Is the topic of today's MB Radio. Dr. Harley states that the most successful MB couples are the ones that agree to make the necessary changes and work towards those changes together.

He also stated that by requesting your spouse to change is a love buster - disrespectful.

What happens if you are married to a reluctant spouse? How do you move your marriage forward?

Hi Kemosabe, welcome to Marriage Builders. Did your wife have an affair? The reason I asked is because you posted in the Surviving an Affair section. Did you mean to do that?

But to answer your question, there are several ways to motivate a reluctant spouse. One way is to follow this program and become the best spouse you can, avoiding love busters, meeting her needs, and attracting her into the marriage. This can often work. And you can even write Dr Harley and get advice. [for free]

If that doesn't work, the Harleys have professional services you can use, such as counseling or the MB online program. Almost all couples that sign up for the courses have one reluctant spouse and they do a real good job of motivating the reluctant spouse.

Also, there are a series of articles about "Can one spouse save a Marriage" that might be helpful: Can One Spouse Save a Marriage? (Part 2)

I'll have to hear that, because usually he wouldn't say that requesting change is disrespectful or a love buster. Demanding change is certainly a love buster, but not requesting it. The difference between a request and a demand is if it's a request you can say no.

What kind of change are you looking for most in your spouse? The kind of change you are looking for will probably affect the advice we give:

* you'd like her to start meeting your emotional needs
* you'd like her to stop certain behaviors that bother you
* you'd like her to stop being demanding, disrespectful, or angry

What I heard him say today is that you cannot tell your spouse they need to change because that is disrespectful. For example, if you spouse said to you "I am really unhappy what do you suggest I do?" Then it is ok to say "I think you should see a professional therapist." However, if your spouse doesn't ask for your advice, it's not ok to go to them and say "I think you are unhappy and what you need to do is go see a professional so they can change you."

He did say in some cases he recommends separation when one spouse shows no signs that they will change on their own, but to try to change your spouse is disrespectful.

@Kemosabe - good question. I am anxious to see answers because I am very frustrated on one hand seeing some change for the positive on my spouses part but on the other hand feeling that he will never change to meet some of my needs unless I were to separate from him.

Yes, my wife of 25 years had an affair with her employer a few years ago. We were on MB Radio on 2/17/15 to discuss the topic of reluctant spouses. We also worked with Steve Harley.

What I heard Dr. Harley say today is that in his role he can advise, not the spouse. If I ask my spouse to change than I am judging her, which is disrespect.

This seems like a very fine line to walk. If your spouse is reluctant you shouldn't say - Our recovery is taking much longer because you are reluctant.

But, can I say - "I am frustrated with the speed at which our recovery is progressing" and then wait for her to ask what we could do? Do I bring it up as a policy of joint agreement topic and then ask her to work with me every day to brainstorm possible solutions?

It seems like it might be how you approach the topic. If you state how the issue is impacting you it might be possible to avoid love busters and not be disrespectful.

If we take Joyce's example of being frustrated that Dr. Harley does not pack the night before they travel. "Bill I think you might have a personality disorder because you wait until the morning we travel to pack your bag." Instead if she says "Bill I am very stressed thinking that you will forget something because you do not pack the night before we travel."

Dr. Harley's concept of goodwill for your spouse should make sure you are willing to be open to your spouses feedback as to how your actions are impacting them. From there the ball should start rolling.

Of course Dr. Harley was correct when he said that her perceived solution that he pack the night before will solve the problem of forgetting something. He might still forget something even if he packed the night before.

Is the answer that we learn to state how issues are impacting us and ask your spouse to help brainstorm solutions?

Any other ideas out there?

It's not asking your spouse to change that is disrespectful. But the others you listed, yes, they are disrespectful. Such as blaming your spouse for the speed of recovery, or calling her reluctant. I made the mistake of calling my wife reluctant many times. That was the exact scenario we were in - she didn't want to do what Marriage Builders recommended she do.

So, instead of lecturing my wife about what she should do, or what Marriage Builders (or any other expert source) says she should do, instead I had to make statements to her about how I was feeling and what I would like. And I had to go very light touch on those complaints for awhile because until I finally brought my balance in her Love Bank up high enough, she frankly didn't care how I felt at all. (But saying that to her would have been disrespectful, too!) Everything I did had to be in the context of trying to do a fantastic job meeting my wife's emotional needs and resolving her complaints.

Personally, I would avoid using the phrase "frustrated." I had to learn to keep my statements very flat and simple and not dramatic at all. Anything that anyone anywhere might think is the slightest bit exaggerated or dramatic needs to come out of a complaint, at least in my marriage where my wife and I both feel disrespected when the other talks that way.

So, complaints look like this:
"I'd like it if we would go out alone together more."
"It bothers me when you stay out late."
"I feel disrespected when you tell me I should have taken out the garbage."

The important complaints need to be kept on the front burner. That means if your wife gets upset or emotional when you complain or doesn't seem to want to do anything about your complaints, you change the subject, but then you bring the subject up again tomorrow or next week.

And as I said the complaints have to be in a context of being super at following Marriage Builders yourself: fantastic job of meeting her emotional needs, responsive to her complaints, following the principles (POJA, PORH, etc.), NO love busters from you, love bank balance above the romantic love threshold or headed that direction as quick as you can manage. For me it had to be very "light touch": make the statement to pass the information and then MOVE ON to something else and quickly demonstrate that I'm still speaking to her and still trying to meet her emotional needs and be the best husband in the world to her.

Now, can I get you to be specific about what you want your wife to change? What is the biggest problem for you in your marriage? Unmet emotional needs? Demands, disrespect, and anger? Independent behavior? Substance abuse? Continued infidelity? We need to talk with you about the details.

Tonto,
You are on the right track.
Just keep plugging along.

Radio Clip of Kemosabe's Show

Thank you for posting the radio clip - BrainHurts

Here is a response to an email question to Dr. Harley regarding a PORH issue we had in the past couple of weeks.

My general reaction to the problem you face with recovery is that your wife is probably trying about as hard as she can to help your marriage recover from her infidelity, but she is battling her own tendency to be secretive and independent. I�m not much of an advocate of dredging up childhood trauma, so I wouldn�t suggest pressing your wife on details of her traumatic childhood. Besides, I believe that most of her predispositions are inherited, not learned. She has always been a survivor, and was never to good at trusting anyone but herself. Your marriage worked because you were kept very busy, and with your travel, allowed your wife to be about as independent as she chose to be. From her perspective, her affair was really no big deal � more of an adventure than anything.

When we talked to you both last February, your wife seemed to be very cooperative because she came to understand how much suffering she had caused for you. It was her empathy that led her on a path of recovery. But there are limits to what she can do for you, I would imagine. You represent a person with rules, and she hates rules. Even thought the rules are ultimately in her best interest, she doesn�t like to live under them. In another marriage she could easily have been a wreck by now. You have actually kept her safe all of these years � from her own predispositions.

My general reaction, again, is that she is probably trying to be the wife you need. But her effort may not be enough to make your life peaceful and happy. Time will tell. I wouldn�t press her on childhood memories for a host of reasons. But I would encourage you to avoid being apart overnight, bring her with you on business trips and have fun with her whenever you go, and don�t try to be her teacher � it won�t work. It goes without saying that if you are ever demanding, disrespectful, or angry toward her, you will be ruining whatever you may be trying to build together.

Best wishes,

Dr. Harley

So the problem is that your wife is not being radically honest?

I think there are a few problems we continue to stub our toes on.

I feel resentment that as the patient in the recovery process and my ww was the physician, I would have died one thousand deaths due to the poor care that I was given.

When examples of poor care crop into our relationship, we can go off the tracks.

Example: Last August my father in laws birthday was coming up. We had just finished a long discussion about how their house was a big trigger for me and how I needed to stay away from the house for a while. She agreed. Less than a week later she gets a call that her dads birthday party will be at their house.

She told me about the party without a single comment or thought about my trigger. When I mentioned it there was a big emotional reaction, but it is my father...

I had to remind her, hay maybe we can suggest that we have the party at our house, a restaurant, or local park... She reluctantly agrees to suggest that, but her parents don't support it and now I am made to feel bad that I am taking care of myself and putting my needs before hers.

I can list 100 examples starting from my request for her to leave her job to a multiple month struggle to donate the golf clubs that were used in a charity golf outing, that was at the center of the infidelity.

Does that make sense? I would list them under independent behavior, oppositional disposition (Dr. Harley's comment on the radio show), and lack of extra ordinary care & goodwill.

Ok, this is some good working material, so let me see if I can help you learn and apply the principals here.

While it is true that as betrayed husbands, we are the patient in the recovery process, we are outpatients.

Husbands are the stewards of the marriage because we are naturally better equipped to endure stress and anguish. And as such, it is easier for us to drive the marriage in a healthy direction, even when under duress.

Your wife, in this scenario, is more like a Primary Care Physician (PCP), than a trauma surgeon.

Your job is to follow your plan of care for a healthy lifestyle;

Get 25+ hours each week of UA time to build Romantic Love, and avoid Love Busters.

You report problems to your PCP;

It bothers me when you....

I love it when you...

Your PCP provides assessment; how are you meeting her needs? How can you better meet them? What Love Busters can you elimintate.

You provide your PCP with feedback: how is she meeting your needs? How can she better meet them? What Love Busters can she eliminate?

You then follow the PCPs recommendations, and follow up regularly (use the Emotional Needs and Love Busters questionnaires available here on the website).


/analogy


Now, for your scenario - the first thing I have to ask, is was your wife's affair exposed, and was it exposed to your in-laws?

You see, if the affair was exposed to your in-laws, then they would know why it is that you are going to be declining invitations to their home; because it exacts an emotional toll on you that is toxic to your marriage.


Then, you tell your wife "I am not enthusiastic about going to the in-law's house, can we discuss some alternatives?"

If you cannot find an alternative that you are both enthusiastic about, neither one of you should go.

If she goes without your enthusiastic agreement?

Well, you tell her it bothers you, continue the healthy marriage habits... and if she continually disregards your feelings, then over time there will be no marriage. Over time those habits will erode the love in your marriage enough that you may divorce her.

Notice; I didn't suggest you turn to Love Busters or withdrawal. I didn't suggest a lambasting, punishment, or retaliation.

You simply tell her that it bothers/hurts you when she disregards your feelings, and continue driving the marriage towards healthy habits.

You can't force or coerce your wife into a fulfilling, romantic marriage.

But, you, as a husband, can lead the way. And if she absolutely refuses to follow... one day she may find herself without a husband.

Or, she can follow the lead of a patient, loving husband, and you may be surprised to discover a different woman than you've known all this time.

It's up to you to drive.

HoldHerHand - I really appreciate the way you presented the Primary Care Physician (PCP) approach. It is clear that I must own a healthy approach to our marriage, but request that my spouse (PCP) be there to help and brainstorm mutually agreeable proposed solutions to our conflicts, in a timely manner. If she does not live up to her part of the relationship, I may have to find a new PCP.

This approach will allow me to take care of myself, provide my input into brainstorming solutions to our unresolved conflict and not feel the need to find solutions for her. It is really up to her to show the extraordinary care - or not.

To answer your question: Yes, my wife's parents were included in an exposure email and we had a direct exposure conversation with them. They were furious at me for sending out the email. Their approach to problem solving personal issues is to pretend the issues do not exist. We have shared with them our new Marriage Builders approach to our relationship including borrowing them our His Needs Her Needs DVD, which they did not watch.

I believe the hardest part about focusing on my end of the relationship is that as Dr. Harley said when we talked with him earlier this year is that she has been so reluctant. It literally took 3.5 years for a dinner table conversation to create empathy in how much her infidelity has impacted my happiness, career, health and family.

Have you written Dr. Harley again?

If you are waiting for her empathy get on the waiting list to fly to the moon.
3.5 years to show empathy?
That may be all you get. Dr. Harley is very clear in his literature and speaking that wayward women do not ha've empathy. Instead of focusing on empathy, his approach is to build romantic love that will pave over the injustices of the past.

***edit*** and treat her like a princess ro get to the romantic love threshold. But, is it worth biting your tongue for another 3.5 years if it may result in a lifetime of romantic love? Thats a decision you make.

O.K., but the venerable Doctor also says that if the unfaithful spouse and betrayed spouse are both enthusiastic and follow his plan they can guide themselves through the recover process without any outside help.

Having to debate for months the need to discard a pair of golf clubs that were at the center of the unfaithfulness left me constantly wondering if my wife really cared for me.

Are you still talking about her affair?

In recovery, you should never even know if she feels empathy or not because you won't be talking about the affair. Don't try to analyze what she feels or doesn't feel -- focus on actions that will create romantic love in both of you.

But romantic love will not happen if you are still talking about her affair and trying to get her to feel a certain way.

Don't seek empathy. Seek Just Compensation.

We do not talk about the affair. We do talk about some of the struggles of recovery.

Call me crazy, but after having my life turned upside down, losing a job of 25 years and watching my wife lay on the bedroom floor for a month because another man was no longer in her life, I struggle when she does not provide extraordinary care.

One of the analogies Steve Harley used to use is are you sitting in the front row of class to learn how to provide extraordinary care for your betrayed husband. We both agreed, she was sitting in the back row. It has gotten better, but at times she sits in the back row.

I really like HoldHerHand suggestion regarding leading my life following the MB principles and concepts and communicating with my spouse when her actions are meeting/not meeting my needs.

Seeing that she was not searching for solutions, I believe that I spent too much time trying to solve our problems.

If you are not talking about her affair, then what kind of empathy are you expecting? What exactly are you talking about when you discuss the "struggles of recovery."

What kind of extraordinary care are you providing her?

Most women I know, and most men as well, would find that kind of discussion to be very disrespectful, so when you talk like that, you are DEmotivating her rather than motivating her.

If you want your marriage to recover, you have to learn the skill of talking about the problems of the present without referring to the problems of the past. So if the problem is that she is not meeting your emotional needs, talk about that problem, but don't say that you need her to meet your emotional needs because she had an affair - any man would be disappointed to not have his emotional needs met, affair or not. Likewise if the problem is disrespect on her part, or independent behavior, or whatever else it might be.

And at the same time you have to make it reciprocal. In fact most men, betrayed or not, need to engage in a bit of "pump priming" to get the engine of marriage running. So be asking her about what emotional needs she has that you are not meeting. Ask her to tell you about times when you are demanding or disrespectful, or do something she is not enthusiastic about.

You're right to feel that way and I really feel for you, but the way you are going about this you are shooting yourself in the foot. These are the same struggles lots of couples have even if there is not an affair, and if there's something you need from your wife you need to isolate that issue and talk about it alone (and make it reciprocal as well). Otherwise it's like writing out your complaint for her and then coloring over it all with a black crayon, because the minute you start referencing the affair that is all she sees and she will never even see your complaint. (Even if you mention it obliquely, like by using the word "recovery.")


HHH is a very good one to listen to. To a great extent you have to lead the way for your wife. Get her to fall back in love with you by following the plan, and a great deal of your problems are going to vanish.

These are all very good suggestion and I have to learn how to live in the present more and less in the past. One of the comments Dr. Harley made when we were on MB Radio in February is that I must have sensed that my spouse did not have empathy for me.

My amygdala was on high alert after learning of the infidelity. It took three years for the depression to subside and I started returning to the energetic & imaginative person that I was in the past.

At that point I was looking for my spouse to take the lead on our recovery. Show me in no uncertain terms that she had learned from the mistakes of the past and was following the MB concepts and principles to protect our marriage.

When David Letterman was caught cheating on his wife, he came on the air and said " I have my work cut out for me".

To think that your spouse after 24.5 years of marriage is not acting on your behalf is mind boggling.

I started this post by talking about change. Asking your spouse to change for you. The reality is that each spouse must have a willingness to change for the other spouse. Listen to each others complaints, confirm your understanding of the complaint and work together to find a mutually agreeable solution to each complaint requires change.

This might not be empathy, but there has to be a willingness to change. A feeling of goodwill and wanting your spouse to win.

Based on HHH's suggestion, I will focus more on today. Follow the MB concepts and policies and when I feel that one of my needs are not being met, complain to my spouse about how it makes me feel.

I didn't develop the plan of care, I'm simply doing the patient teaching. The credit goes to Dr. Harley.

A lot of get help here for the OP.

I do not know how long ago your D day was. Or how long it took for the affair to end. Though to point out that recovery is a 2 to 5 year time frame. Recovery is not a fast process.

What I do know is that many WW's never show remorse after their affair was over or when they enter recovery, or even after recovery is done. Dr Harley has said that many WW's never show or admit remorse.

So to sit around waiting for the remorse train is going to leave you empty handed forever.

As to your in-laws they did not care about your WW cheating on you. They showed no empathy for you. Your WW was raised by these people and you expect your WW to so empathy to you? That's crazy.

Now, what is the problem with the in-laws house? Did they WW use that house to have her affair? Did they welcome the OM into their home during the affair. Did they allow the affair to happen in that house?

Depending on what your in-laws did during the affair could make me want to go from NC'ing that house to NC'ing the in-laws as well.

On Monday (8/31/15) - Hope joined the MB radio program to get insights from Dr. Harley regarding her husbands recent infidelity. One thing that Dr. Harley mentioned is that a wayward spouse is like a Heroine addict. He also mentioned that her husband should be more than willing to do what it takes to ease Hopes anxiety. He should be ready to leave his job, relocate, promise never to see the other person ever again, and on and on.

When your spouse is reluctant to make any changes it leaves you wondering if they are over their addiction. Are they providing you the extraordinary care? Or are they ready go back to their addiction.

Thank you for sharing your story - Hope and good luck!