Hi All,

As I am posting here, it is no surprise what is my problem.. I am 50+ year old man with 40+ year old wife and two kids, almost teens.. Lots of details that would make my situation unique.. but the common problem I have is:

I believe wife is either in or has been in an affair starting mid last year. She is really smart... I can not find any undeniable proof. But I for sure have all the gut feelings and most any list of is your spouse/wife cheating can be 100% checked off. I believe I seen all of the symptoms last year in September for a pill based abortion and then for some form of birth control after that(not sure what one) I have vasectomy so it is not me.

Wife violently deny any wrongdoing or having any emotional or physical affair. I have been framed by her as crazy.. I can not tell if it is still going on, if yes it is much less as we are now together most of the time as I tightened up the available times.

I had hired a therapist end of last year, I am going to terminate with that person as it is not helping me. They continue to tell me that I must decide, but I can not decide. I very strongly have gut feeling she is / has been in affair. I can not prove it and it is literally driving me crazy. I need to either leave or learn to trust... as the broken trust is also a huge problem.

Can I use the forum to tell my story and ask advice/comments? Maybe something I tell will be very clear to someone else and they can tell/explain to me what I am missing to see?

What I am trying to do is get to a point that I don't feel like she had an affair or get to situation that I am 100% certain instead of 90%... I would not want to live/care/and provide for a person that would frame me as crazy and all the treatments that go with that if she allowed another man in her. If it is not true, then it is simply I/we need to work through the improvement material and improve.

Any question to help clarify is ok. I won't take offense at anything.

Thank you'

Welcome to MB.

Of course you must use the forum to tell your story, and we will help you get 100% proof.

I'm rather surprised that you need it, however, since you talk about abortion pills and birth control. If you saw that evidence for yourself, what more do you need?

Welcome to MB.

Can you put spyware on all of her devices? A GPS tracker on her vehicle? Do not ask her if she is having an affair. She wil just lie if she is.

How did you find out about the abortion pills and birth control?

You need to find out for sure if she is having an affair, or you will always be wondering and make yourself crazy not knowing.

I will leave out some just because otherwise it will be a 100 pages.

Married for 15 years. It is or was an ok marriage. Some struggles. Financially we are fine, I was a high earner in 5% crowd in USA. In addition together we operated a successful business where we earned more. Then invested, property.. etc.. money is not our problem.

A little over a year ago we moved to wifes home country in Asia. Lots of reasons for this, including advantages for kids. Kids are ours and only ones either of us have.

Soon after we moved to new location we invested to have kids on many sports activities, taking up most all of any available time. There quickly became reasons why I should stay home while wife takes kids to activities. During this time we are also having increase in arguments about nothing... After some months of arguments about it, I insist to attend. I find immediately what I view as open flirting and strong body language attraction between my wife and the owner/leader of the sports group. When I confronted her about it, instant ANGER and denial (but I seen it...) and insisting that I am crazy. They guy is married and later I find out the wife was pregnant. Wife starts spending all time at home on phone apps like messenger and attempt so suggest we should sleep separately. I don't allow it. But now I am tuned in that there is a problem... For me, I NEVER expected such a problem as I before completely trusted, even blindly.. Likely of importance is I had some ED... If you have never had such and issue, I can assure you it is not fun and really hard on self esteem and relationships.

I did not know what to do.. at this point our fighting is very hot.. wife will disappear for hours alone... and not respond to any txt/call etc... will come home with small bag grocery to explain 6 hours. Starts dressing extra sexy.. Any place I go with her, can see her openly flirting with any men. What she tried to tell me is that it is just being friendly.. I just could see it in the eyes that is was more.. But she would deny.. I am sure that the guys liked it, guys are guys...

I am a bit secluded, working from home. I find based on trying to figure out what to do red pill marriage ideas and sites and read everything. I try to follow the plans, I am now in excellent health and physical fitness better than most 15 years younger then I. The mental changes prescribed are harder for me and I did not succeed, it included needed to flirt with other women and even have an affair myself to show higher value. I did not like to do it, where I live there are 100s of choices that would be happy to accommodate me. Some of the things to do is just be quiet and exit when girl starts raging. I did that and id did help some to quiet things, but did not do anything to repair. The idea was to show strength and that my wife should be attracted to that strength and due to higher attraction the problems go away. Did not work for me... I think possible as there was already a guy hooked to her. All the time, she is deny, violently. I have kept a journal, so when she tries to convince I am crazy I have a record to look at.

The open flirting continues as does the focus to internet communications with …. who knows.. I had access eventually and could not find anything. But in my opinion when I was finally access stuff and been removed..

She was refusing and public display of affection around that guy and standing away from me, etc.. always. By this time our interaction are so bad that In my opinion she had to be NPD. I even received some heavy scratches when she attacked me. From my side it was almost always, lets calm down and talk, hug, be friends. From her side it was get away from me, you disgust me. I don't like you, I want space. From my red pill training I recognized I want space as give me room to spend more time with the other guy. So I did not. Our city is not big, not small. Anyone in same profession will know each other.. takes 15 min to drive through town.. So I decide to encourage us to move to another sports team with the kids because at this point I was sure something was up with her and the coach.. but could not prove anything.

Just after moving to a new team... (the teams know each other by the way..) I see exactly the same pattern of wife heavy flirt with the coach of the new team. The two would literally stare at each other in front of me for 10 or 15 minutes at a time. My wife would look to continually relocate herself closer to him and make loud commotion with other ppl to call attention to herself. If the two are talking, she is really poring on the charm, full body language.. I seen it... At this point we are sill sometimes attending the first group.. I am so confused.. how is that my wife now has to other men and is so [censored] to me.

It turns out that how our schedules work is that she would consistently take the kids without me for several hours in the morning to the second team. And would leave the kids to go jog with a girlfriend. This all should be fine.

All along I have super strong instinct or gut feeling that she is having sex with another man. There are two guys I can see, both coaches. How can it be both of them... they are both married. However.. it turns out that they both had pregnant wife's... and know each other...

In September I seen all the symptoms of what I thought at the time was emergency birth control. But no real proof except symptoms. Later when I analyzed her cycle time and what I seen it more closely fits that it was a pill based abortion. Her mood change just before for a month was really spacy and just staring out the windows, the fights before that time I think most men would have beat her due to what she was saying but during that month she calmed down.. by this time she knows I am tracking her cycle, because I have started asking questions about things that did not add up. The extra discharged from her I noticed now that I think about it could have bee due to early pregnancy..as well as bloating I don't know.. and I feel awkward to be in the position to be concerned about something like that.

In September she displayed all the symptoms of taking an abortion pill, and had just previously been gaining some weight. She was really nervousness and starting to be so very very sweet to me at that time. The period was late a couple days...when it came she was visible re-leaved and returned to acting [censored] to me. I don't have any proof other than what I think I seen. She kept all the period output.. for that time until it was completely done, usually she just will through it.

I have never told her I think it was an abortion, I have told her before that I think it can be emergency birth control as that is what I initially thought. Her answer is to rage, tell me it is not my business and that I will never be forgiven for not trusting.. The reason for her problems are stress due to dealing with me. Now that can be true.. I was following red pill ideas that suggest to be more stoic and try to show being aloof. She for sure asked me more than once what was up with me... but I could never get the feeling that she was wanting to return to me, she continued to be interested in “him”. Now can all that happen and not be what I suspect ? After September she started to gain weight again and show other signs of birth control, such as acne, tired, and continue bloating. She tells it is due to stress because of me... Now it could be premenopause... Ladies, can that also explain what I seen in September?

The rest of what is in my mind and heart is probably similar to anyone else that has been in the position. I don't have proof... She might for now have backed away from the guy if it is the first guy as the wife had a late term miscarriage (maybe due to stress from husband affair...). If it was the second guy I have made myself really visible to him, he doesn't even look at me now and avoid wife if I am around. Either way, if it is one of those guys and she does not tell me that is a problem.. She continue to tell me that I am crazy... She continues to have as much sex with me as want, but never initiates. Earlier I said I had ED badly, and I did. I found a way to solve that completely. That is itself was an amazing thing for me. So I have pushed the sex again a lot with her with idea to starve the other guy out. She tells that it is to much, but her body will continue to respond. Our emotional roller coaster continues, it changes 2 or 3 times a week.


I am in doubt of myself in many ways about this. She tries to convince I am crazy.. maybe I am.. My body just screams at me if one of those guys approach her. The scream is MUCH loader if it is the first guy although the second guy is a lot more aggressive and much more visible to me.

As I read and watch the info on this site.. I feel sad to think how many accept wife's affair and want to heal the marriage, but I start to understand. I want to heal the marriage, but I don't think I can accept an affair and would look to proceed with putting the guy in jail for 6 years as that is the local law. If she is loyal, the I/we have a lot of work to do.

Pls tell me like it is... I don't want to believe... but... I want to resolve/prove to myself what is true. If something doesn't sound clear, I probably have a lot more about that specific area/thing.

thank you for helping.

Thank you for helping. I did not see the pill's, or any other thing like that. What I seen is the symptoms that would result.

High blood pressure
Joint and head pain
Nausea
Diarrhea
Fluid retention
Vomit
Fever

Heavy/strange period that was late, together with noticeable concern or worry from wife until it comes. she usually has a great poker face and can lie without any detection. this time she looked worried and was acting very sweet to me, The bloating or weight seemed to lessen, but then come back again a month later along with some acne, extreme tiredness and it seems like ovulation skipped once or twice. Moodiness to the very very extreem.. but that can be just due to not liking me...

So it is like, I can apply the logic of it looks like a duck, smells like a duck, and goes quack.. it must be a duck.

This is so very serious to me however that I wish to be sure. I would forever regret taking action if she was innocent. The other offenses such as the raging and flirting... are very very painful but I can find forgiveness for those if we could reconcile.

I agree that I need to know. That is my interest in this forum, but then if she is ok.. I need to fix a lot of problems...
I only see the symptoms, no proof of the actual drugs. I did look, everyplace..
It is making me crazy and breaking everything else in my life.
With any luck some forum members will have ideas of what I can look at/for to find the truth.

Can you put spyware on her devices? GPS and VAR in her vehicle?

It is challenge for me to privately acquire anything right now, including GPS or VAR. What do you recommend for spyware, maybe phone can be gps also?

If I don't find something I would not want to have this activity discovered. remember, I am the bad guy for now that does not trust.

What 'red pill' strategy did you use? From what I know, 'red pill' is very destructive to a marriage.

It is called married red pill, can be found on reddit. I did this as I searched for a solution the the already existing problems.

The strategy is all about self improvement. With the overall idea to increase self value. When your value is equal to or better yet, greater than your wife then she will be attracted to you again.

This is because in many cased especially men can get lazy after being in a relationship for some time. The guy that was very attractive when the couple first meet, becomes less attractive due to being lazy, out of shape, and sometime careless. Also over time men might give in to demands of an aggressive wife instead of standing up for his own principles. Over time she will loose attraction due to his being weak, meaning if she can win with him, how can he protect her from the world..

There is an entire library of content to support this produced by many well educated ppl.

Most of the content was really new to me and shocking. After evaluating it, there is some truth to it. Many men have had success in fixing there marriage or relationship by following the formula.

One of the ideas in red pill is that girls will always look to get the most dominant guy in any setting. There are exceptions, but generally this seems to play out.. In my case wife was/is chasing or allowing the owners/leaders of the organizations. It makes sense that they will try to have the top/best they can. Also the idea of keeping control of a good provider and keeping them at home while running around to have excitement and sexual needs met is discussed. Again it look valid to my case on the surface...

It did not work for me.. but I also fell short of doing all that was required because it conflicted with what I believe. Or maybe I just could not do it.. who knows...


Thanks for helping and commenting.

Married red pill gets the man what he wants (sex, wife stops nagging), but leaves his wives needs unmet and therefore unhappy.

While you are here, read the articles on how to create a fulfilling happy marriage. You might pick up some valuable information.

I was doing that already, the videos and other content. that is what first got me to this address. I am likely a lousy conversationalist... and that is really important.

I respectfully disagree with you about the red pill thing. The goal was to create desire in the wife for the husband. sex, stop nagging, admiration, team work.. all can come from having desire.
I likely would not do the things I do for my wife if I did not have desire for her. Yes the needs (emotional needs list) makes a lot of sense that is presented in this site. I can agree with them. Most of it is stuff I already do, but a lousy conversationalist.. according to this site MB, that left the door open for another man to fill that need, deposit enough love credits to take my wife.

What I personally wanted was the Disney Fairy tail where we both do anything and everything for each other. According to red pill that does not exist and is impossible. I see so many ladies, after I started paying attention to it that are flirting looking for male conversation. Maybe as much as 50%.

For me I am so impressed and drawn to couples when I can see visibly that they are really into each other.

Unfortunately if there is already another man with my wife, its not going to work out no matter what I do, that was likely already in place when i first discovered red pill but no definitive proof.

True, when there is an affair, nothing you do is effective.

The best recipe to create desire is found right here. You should be careful with having sex with a reluctant spouse, because it creates resentment, the opposite of desire.

Several parts of your post bother me. You mention other men would have beaten their wife if she acted like your wife did. Big red flag. Marriage red pill and disrespectful judgements go hand in hand.

Who initiated moving to this country and what were the reasons to go to this specific location? Is there reason to assume an affair was already ongoing before moving?

HI Seawave, welcome to Marriage Builders. The first step is to spy on her and find out if there is an affair. You can't move forward and make decisions until you find out the facts. You shouldn't accuse or ask, just quietly spy. It is not necessary to "feel" she didn't have an affair, you need to find out the truth. Feelings are not truth. It is not a virtue to blindly trust a spouse.

Can you hire a PI?

How can you decide anything if you don't have all the facts? It is not a lack of trust that ruins marriages, but a lack of boundaries. Too much trust leads to affairs. Blind trust is not a virtue.

The Red Pill is a stupid, toxic idea that will wreck your marriage. Affairs wreck marriages, they don't save them. Marriages end all the time due to affairs, it doesn't raise your value, it cheapens it and will lead to divorce. Any plan that tells you that flirting and having an affair on your wife is a) unethical and b) doesn't understand how women think. If you know how devastating the idea of an affair is to you, how could you consider doing it to your spouse?

I agree with you about sex/reluctant. So I have been modify that one some. I think that part of the problems also started due to my problems before in that area. I do try very hard to be considerate in that actions. Your point about this is definitely noted.

I did not and do not think I would physically hurt her. My comment about that was to try to convey the depth of her rage and the calculated choices of attack. Only red pill idea at that time gave me the internal mechanism to stay calm. Without that I likely would have melted down...

From my viewpoint, the main disrespectful judgment I have about her is based on the open flirting. of that one I am for sure guilty.

I initiated it. The reason was two.

First, for our kids. we had agreed enthusiastically that it would be a good culture change for kids and due to our increased status in the new location kids would get/have better time of activities. This so far has been completely true. We agree together that this goal was and is met from the change.

Second, neither of us like/want to do household chores. if someone does not do it for us, our house will almost get to be unsanitary or in some times look like a hoarder home. dirty plates every place, laundry all over floor. etc... In new location the idea was that we can easily hire someone to do that for us. This never worked out for us as my wife after we moved did not want to hire a maid, claiming privacy as the reason. so we still are living in the same clutter/mess as before. it is not the big of deal, for me I don't think that category even makes it into my top 5 emotional needs list. For my wife, it is probably not even in the list to start with. But... whenever we stay in a hotel or someone does come to clean for us, we both are enjoy the clean area.

We picked this location because it is her original home and we had/have already invested much for homes and property in the area. Also her family is in the area.

Thanks for your help.

I have not tried to hire a PI. There is not anything like that where I live right now. I am also shy about increasing the "you don't trust me.." and hire a PI is probably as far in that direction I could go. However if it is the only way.. I would/will try. Maybe in one of the countries largest city there is something like that but I don't expect they would have the necessary familiarity with my location. But maybe..

Is that the best way ?

that is exactly how I feel about this topic. I did completely trust her and had no idea she was even capable of such actions. I now know that was very naive.

I am in agreement with you and did not do that. Although I wonder in truth if I should have. Much of the red pill teaching does appear to be true. To me it is like there was another world hidden that I never seen before, yet it was always right in front of me. I can see others doing exactly what is described. Even BM agrees that over 50% of ppl have affairs.

I did not find MB when I first realized a problem, I found red pill instead. perhaps it would have went better if I had found MB first. The problem as already and I was very upset looking for what should I do about it. The description of the "nice guy" in red pill fits me perfectly I think, even the bad parts or especially the bad parts. I for sure can agree that women will gravitate to a dominant man, even if they have a loyal husband in many cases. Men are no better, they will pursue a sexy lady usually no matter what except in rare cases or the 20% that MB talks about. I never realized how little marriage vows and promise means to many. As a man I for sure notice other women if they are sexy, but I actually prevent myself from interacting with them because the first thing in my mind when I do is my wife. I always expected my wife to be the same way.

Have you study or familiar with red pill content, or only second hand? reason I ask is that there are many truths in it, but also some bad or wrong or non christian ideas. That doesn't mean that the symptoms and causes of those are wrong, but for sure some of the recommendations are not christian. But.. many of them are. I think it did not work for me, at least in part because I could not fake not being interested in her.

It is still hard for me to put her into the frame of sex with another man. It really looks like it happened/was happening. For awhile I thought due to red pill reading that maybe they guy just escalated to her at the right time and it is his fault. As time goes by and I consider it more, she had to be accepting him as well as hiding it from me, and going back for more. So she is not the innocent one I used to see her as. I wonder if what I have written should be enough for anyone to see.. and only I am refusing to believe it.

Hi SeaWave. I'm sorry for the reasons that brought you here.

Did you flirt with other women? Did you have an affair?

Thank you for helping. I did not flirt with other women. I did think about it. but did not, I dismissed several lady that tried to initiate one on one conversation with me, very politely. I get a lot of eye contact and double eye contact. I always just smile and look away or smile look to my wife if she is present.

No, I did not have an affair. I did think about it as I could not seem to make progress with my wife. It was/is like her love bank was closed. I only learned the MB terms in the last weeks. I got that idea to have an affair from red pill. I also have seen it first hand work for others.. There seems to be some physical thing that occurs because of it. Even though I am hurt/angry about wife the idea of her affair it seems to have focused my attention to her. The other reason to do it would be self or selfish, so as to have a backup in case wife and I split as well as to change my manner from needy to confident. Anyway, no.. I did not. It breaks my sense of wright and wrong. Also, wife continues to be physically available to me, it is the emotional part this is missing so I don't have any unmet physical need, it is all emotional. The emotional disconnect is strong. Also physical without emotion is not really perfect..

Red pill is manipulative and controlling, 'succes' means one spouse 'wins' at the expense of the other spouse. Red pill wrecks marriages.

You are saying the same over and over, why? The problems I have started before that. Wife was likely already to an affair it looks like.
Success for me is for both to win together, however I do not agree that it is ok for wife to have sex with another man. Do you suggest that is ok? If something wrecks my marriage that will be the reason.

It sounds like you might have some experience with red pill. I am aware that many players... use the content in red pill to help them to do what they do. A person that wanted to could also use MB info in the opposite way as intended and pursue married women, I think with good success, that would be a terrible thing to do. Many of the red pill men are really just common men that are trying to figure out how to have a happy marriage and found that instead of this. If there was not already a problem I would not have looked for help and would never have found red pill.

What I try to figure out with help of the forum, is how likely it is that my wife was having sex with another man. Persons that have been involved with and helped many others with similar issues likely can analyze what I say and ask few questions and get really close the the right answer. Or with any luck, tell or point out to me why it is not that way. The big data point being symptoms that can match abortion pill, and if there are other reasons for the same such as menopause or ??

Redwave, no one here is going to help you follow a destructive, immoral program like "red pill." We can help you with Marriage Builders, a tried and true program if that is what you are here for. Otherwise you are wasting our time.

If you are trying to figure out if your wife is having an affair, the answer is obvious and has already been suggested: SPY ON HER.

Real simple.

Other than that, did you have a question about Marriage Builders?

I never saw an answer to these questions. What are you going to do to spy on her and get the answers you need?

Thank you for your help.. I see you address to me as Redwave... I was telling what I have done and seen. For sure I was not asking for any advice to further pursue red pill. I had that in my initial story, and when a comment or question about it I shared more.

The spy makes sense, I was looking/hoping to avoid that but I guess I can not. If the affair is over and past I will never find anything... and forever have some doubt, I was also trying to avoid that result.

I like what I see so far in the MB material.

This is an honest question, not sarcastic... So is it true that the first step/recommendation from MB is to spy on wife to find proof? If I understand what I am reading in MB material, she will almost for sure return to the affair at some times due to it still being secret and the spy activity should find something.

How/what do you suggest to do this?

Of course. The first step has to be to spy and find out what she is doing. You can't move forward unless you know the facts. You shouldn't confront, accuse or ask her because that will make her go further underground. Some of the best ways to spy would be to get spyware on her cellphone, GPS on her car, and a voice activated recorder where ever you think she might have a secret conversation.