I moved in with my wife to be, but now she saids she does not know if she wants to marry me because I will control her life. I speak all the time about being submissive and she said does that mean I have to do everything you ask? I said if I am not asking you to do anything crazy yes. I also told her that I am submissive to you aswell, whatever she asks me I will do it for her. I need to know why do some women look at being submissive as being controled?

To the woman out there that might read this post I am not trying to control I am trying to understand!!

Being submissive is not being controling, being dominating or dominated can be controling. However if she feels this way then you might want to get to the root of whats really going on with her before getting married.


Joe

I agree Joe and that is a challenge in itself. I have found that the things I thought she would know about being a wife she does not know. But there is a catch we are not married yet so she does not have to be submissve to me yet. That is something I am learning to deal with, but am I wrong for wanting her to be submissive now verses waiting until we get married? I feel you should act like your married before you get married, but what do I know!!

(((Tlove)))

First off, if you "Speak ALL the time" about pretty much anything, I can see how she can view it as controlling. It's like you are trying to pound your beliefs into her head. Heck, it may not be the submissive thing at all rather how you verbally push your aggenda.

On the brother issue, neither of you are right or wrong, if anything you are both wrong.

You talk about praying that she'll come around and pushing the idea of a submissive wife which I presume comes with religous backing, yet y'all are shacking up, what's up with that?

Now let's cut to the bottom line. One major cause for failure of marriages is that people don't share the same ideas and goals of marriage. What is your idea and goal of marriage? What is hers? If things were to remain as they are, I would say you were a fool if you went through with marriage because y'all obviously don't share the same ideas as to what a marriage ought to be and even now before marriage you are building resentments that it won't take to long for y'all to trip over. So why did you choose to move in with her? Why do you want to marry someone with such different views?

I'm a guy and clearly understand the submissive thing. I know it has it's benefits. But it only works well in the hands of a guy who doesn't abuse it. It works when the wife is submissive and the husband in-turn is REALLY looking out for his wife's needs and well-being. That means asking her opinion, choosing her hapiness over your own at times. Many of the churches will even tell you that a leader should lead as a servant to his people. You can view yourself the same way. As a leader in the house, your job is servant for the household; not king.

Just to have submission so the guy can feel like "a man" is missing half of the equation. So I'd take a good look to make sure you are being the kind of man you should be.

I can understand where you are coming from Bill and I will take your thoughts into consideration. I moved in with her because I thought we were preparing for marriage but like you said we have different veiws. I did not know that until now. On the shacking thing many people don't agree with me but my view on that is if we don't have sex what sin are we committing? There is nothing wrong with a male and a female living under the same roof. You can have sex and not be living together what is the difference. If we had not lived together then I would have never known what I know now. I am great for the constructive critisism but I must say Bill the tone of your email sounds a bit harsh!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Tlove,

I don't think Bill was harsh. He was direct and gave you some serious things to think about. Since marriage is a serious thing it shouldn't be entered into lightly. You are here because things aren't going well and that is good. You are going to get alot of advice from some pretty bright people who have learned alot and don't want to see you make the same mistakes they have or have seen others make.

Personally, as far as marriage goes, please reconsider. It doesn't seem like you are ready nor that you two are meshing as partners. If you were there wouldn't be a struggle already between 'right' and 'wrong' / 'submision' and 'control'. If you are the least bit concerned about the problems you are having now you can multiply that 10-fold for what will happen after you say "I do". It only gets worse. Wedding vows do not solve problems.

You would be very smart to set aside the tone that you read into Bills reply and really listen to him. He knows of what he speaks and is a very wise man. He also holds his beliefs in high regard and can offer you alot on that perspective.

Symphony

(((Tlove)))

“””I am great for the constructive criticism but I must say Bill the tone of your email sounds a bit harsh!!”””

That’s great to think that but few can apply it when challenged with their core beliefs. I reread my post and can’t see harshness anywhere near it, as Symphony said, I do see directness which is how I communicate.

“””I have found that the things I thought she would know about being a wife she does not know.”””

What are those things?

“””But there is a catch we are not married yet so she does not have to be submissive to me yet.”””

What is your definition of her being submissive?

“””On the shacking thing many people don't agree with me but my view on that is if we don't have sex what sin are we committing?”””

Ask any preacher worth his grain in salt and he’ll probably quote 1 Thessalonians 5:22-23: "Abstain from all appearance of evil. And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." I, personally, don’t know of any organized Christian religion that promotes living together before marriage or for that matter would not view it as evil.

“””There is nothing wrong with a male and a female living under the same roof.”””

That is your view. I would say that the proof is in the pudding. We have some wonderful number crunchers around these boards and with the world wide web so much information is at our fingertips, I believe that if you do the research that you’ll find that co-habitation relationships have a higher failure rate and a higher divorce rate than traditional relationships. So even if one were to concede that there wasn’t anything “wrong” with it, they’d still be faced with the facts that it increases the odds for divorce. Why is that?

“””You can have sex and not be living together what is the difference.”””

Really, by who’s standard? IMVHO both are sins. Let’s talk about sex for a moment. Sex changes the dynamics of the relationship especially when introduced to early just like shacking up changes the dynamics. IMVHO both of these things cause a rift in communication skills and as a man it then becomes very easy to revert to our primitive ways and feel that we’ve conquered our quest. Many then begin trying to dictate and control their bounty. We stop perusing and courting because we’ve already got our prize. When in fact, in a relationship that lasts a lifetime, the man and woman for that matter, only stop courting and perusing when they draw their last breath.

“””If we had not lived together then I would have never known what I know now.”””

I totally whole heartedly believe your placing the emphasis in the wrong area. IMVHO it should be on communication. Had you communicated properly y’all would have known this long ago. Communication is the key, how many times have you heard that? That y’all made it to this point without you discovering this about your GF absolutely puzzles me and says a lot about the level of communication in the relationship.

Look the word up in a dictionary or check for synonyms in a word processing program.

What are those things?
Just knowing what a wife should do and what a wife should not do. Example she does not like to let me know where she is going to be. I feel that a couple should be accountable for each other. She saids that I am being noisy, when she goes out she just like to say I am going out and I don't know where. That kind of thing bothers me

What is your definition of her being submissive?
Submissive to me is if I am loving the way a husband is suppose then you should have no problem doing some of things I ask you. To me being submissive is if you are going to leave the house let me know where you are going.

I am sorry but what does IMVHO stand for?

I have come to the place of realizing that we are not ready for marriage. I have learned to work on me and stop trying to fix her. The problem I am having the most if remembering that she is not my wife. But at times I still want her to treat me like a wife should, but that is not going to happen until she is my wife. This forum has helped me a lot. I have learned to talk less and pray more. My desire is not to come across as demanding or controlling, so I am willing to work me so that I don't become that kind of person

S: (adj) submissive (inclined or willing to submit to orders or wishes of others or showing such inclination) "submissive servants"; "a submissive reply"; "replacing troublemakers with more submissive people"
S: (adj) slavish, subservient, submissive (abjectly submissive; characteristic of a slave or servant) "slavish devotion to her job ruled her life"; "a slavish yes-man to the party bosses"- S.H.Adams; "she has become submissive and subservient"

I strongly agree. We can twist and distort all we wish. What is it that we value most?

Being an avid Bible reader, and living it to the best of my ability as a sinner, submissive does not mean that a man expect his wife to perform in any manner that is hurtful or disrespectful to her feelings and/or Christian belief system; same goes for the man. The husband respects the wife. The wife respects the husband. Yes, there are roles that are traditionally upheld in the Bible sense; however, it sounds like we are not in that context. In addition, (why ask?) this is about husband and wife. Living together is not a viable option if we would like to get into "submissive" and "controlling" as it pertains to a healthy Christian-oriented belief system. JMHO.

So my question is ... what is/are you(r) goal(s)?

“””I am sorry but what does IMVHO stand for?”””

In My Very Humble Opinion


“””What are those things?
Just knowing what a wife should do and what a wife should not do.”””

OK, here’s a little problem. No two people on this earth are created the same and as far as I know, none of us are mind-readers. That being said neither she nor I can read your mind as to what you think a wife should and shouldn’t do. As a matter of fact, what your wife should and shouldn’t do may not even closely resemble what my wife should and shouldn’t do. So that brings us to the foundation of any relationship that lasts, communication. You have to learn to effectively communicate your wants, needs, and desires.

“””What is your definition of her being submissive?
Submissive to me is if I am loving the way a husband is suppose then you should have no problem doing some of things I ask you. To me being submissive is if you are going to leave the house let me know where you are going.”””

The example you site, IMVHO, is not being submissive but rather being respectful. She seems to be grasping onto her independence but further there seems to be a certain lack of respect there. Do you know why that is?

”””My desire is not to come across as demanding or controlling, so I am willing to work me so that I don't become that kind of person”””

That’s great but also do this with your eyes wide open seeing what behavior of hers that you are willing to accept and which ones you are not. I would highly recommend some pre-marital counseling either through the church or through a professional. And no matter what, DO NOT GET MARRIED until y’all have these issues in check.

I think you have a distorted view of healthy, biblical, marital submission. Not uncommon given some of the churches distortion and abuse of the passages in ephesians.

Submission in no way relates to control. So if your GF is feeling controlled, you can't dispute her feeling, because that's what she feels. And mutually respectful submission isn't controlling.

As to your other point about living together, we are called as well to not present ourselves in such a way that it might cause our weaker brothers to stumble. Certainly, the expectation is that if you're living together, you're having sex, sending a mixed message to those who are weaker in their faith, or still examining their own beliefs.

I will say all of the comments have help me a great deal. Right now were are not talking about marriage we are working on communicating. Looking at what I can do verses trying to get her to see things my way has made things much better for us. There is a great outlook for us now, and definitly there will be counsling before we make the big step. As for as respect for me goes, part she is afraid that I am going to control her life so she has been hesitant to fully respect and allow herself to do much of anything, but even that is getting better with the help from this forum!!

It's interesting you should ask that. As a woman who views submissiveness as being controlled, I will do my best to explain why I, myself, see it that way.

Submissiveness is to submit. When you submit, you are pushing aside your own wants and needs and allowing another to take the reigns whatever activity you are engaging in. In this case, that would be marriage.

If someone else has the reigns, they are in control.

Therefore, if a wife is submissive, she is not in control.

In addition, when I hear the word submit, I think of the following two things automatically:

1. To give up. To surrender. To lose hope.
2. A sub. A bottom. The reciever in a sado-masochistic relationship.

As you can see, the word submit in and of itself can carry a very negative and despondant meaning.

I hope you do not mean that you wish your fiancee to submit in this way, and from your post it appears that you just want her to do what you ask and are willing to do the same for her. How about instead of speaking to her about submissiveness, you speak to her about equal partnership?

Submissive is an unpleasant word (at least in my ears), and may not be the word you really meant to use.

-Doll

My girlfriend and I have been having this conversation for a while and I need to know if my views are correct. I believe that a married people should not have any secerets. When it comes to finances there is the question of one account verses seperate accounts. I don't have a problem with seprate accounts as long as both names are on the accounts. My girl friend feels otherwise she does not agree that both names should be on the account. I asked her why she told me that she has no problem with having a joint account, but she still wants a serperate account just for her on the side. She told me she feels like I just want to be noisy to have access to her spending account. She told me that it would not feel like her own account if my name was not on it. I think married people should share everything even there money. Please help me!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

I agree with you. We've always had joint accounts; no secrets, no "mine" versus "yours".

Maybe you should encouarge her to be submissive in other ways? Such as letting you choose where you go on a vacation, or putting together a hobby you direct but she enjoys? Most women are used to being submissive that is good at looking like we enjoy being directed.

But actually it's not always true, and there are sometimes when we feel it's downright wrong to be that way-if we challenge a man there is a good reason.

Why not ask her directly next time she challenges you what is the matter honestly? And press her for a direct, honest answer. If she tries to brush it off as not having time, then say you are being honest you want to help her, and you need to know what is wrong. She will tell you what is wrong with you, but get her to tell you what is really bugging her. There has to be a job or work life condition that is bugging her and she may tell you what it is.

Women living with their loved one usually don't challenge him, unless-she feels there is an unequal relationship somehow in her life, it could be something else that you two don't want to discuss-but press her.

It's also easy to act out and say you are controlling me a lot, to start an argument. Not to be divisive it's just that women get in the habit of being submissive and then they see that and get mad at themselves.

Nat

All of the post in this forum has helped me and my fiance make a decesion that was best for the both of us. We have decided that marriage would not be a wise move for us. There were so many major issues that we did not see eye to eye on. The beauty in all of this was we were able to come to this decesion without any bad feeling towards one another. I am also a fulltime father and I realize that I need a woman in my life that is willing to build a relationship with my daughter in spite of what my daugher says or thinks. My daughter is 5 years old and her mother is not active in her life but she knows who she is. And my daughter was going through a faze of telling my finance that why do people feel that you are my mother. My finance could not handle that,she does not have any kids of her own. My fiance started trying to get me to send my daughter to her mother. I tried to explain to my fiance that her mother is not in a position to raise my daughter in the same manner as I can, that is why she is with me. Some people feel no matte what a child should be with the mother and is not wise in all cases. Long story short we are not getting married we are making arrangement on the house we have together and we are good friends living together until the first of the year. Again thanks to all that have helped me in this forum <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Tlove,

I'm sure it was a tough choice but I for one feel you are making a really smart decision for all involved.

Best to you in the future.

Symphony

Thanks <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

I suggest you pick up Dr Gary Smalley's book: The DNA of Relationships, and another book called: The 5 Love Languages and study them - together, *after* you've moved out (living together, sex or not, is inappropriate).

Faithor

If you daughter did not understand and your fiance did not understand, it sounds like you are smart to end the relationship right now.....

Were you really in love?

Were you looking for a mother for your child?

What was the benefit of this relationship?

Don't expect you to answer....just food for thought.

I read through this thread, you're getting some great advice from the guys here.

From a woman's perspective, I'd strongly suggest you find a different word to say what you mean, if you don't mean control, or submissive subserviance - find a word that better describes it.

As Bill said, communication is the key. If you don't communicate before you move in, it often never gets said, until it's too late.

Men quite often see submissive as being somehow 'obedient'... Ummm well, you can have obedience in your marriage if you're willing to be obedient to Christ (you're living together, therefore you are NOT - nuff said).

Back to the communication pole, you need more talky-talky.

Jan

Really, by who’s standard? IMVHO both are sins. Let’s talk about sex for a moment. Sex changes the dynamics of the relationship especially when introduced to early just like shacking up changes the dynamics. IMVHO both of these things cause a rift in communication skills and as a man it then becomes very easy to revert to our primitive ways and feel that we’ve conquered our quest. Many then begin trying to dictate and control their bounty. We stop perusing and courting because we’ve already got our prize. When in fact, in a relationship that lasts a lifetime, the man and woman for that matter, only stop courting and perusing when they draw their last breath.

Well said.......

Ok, to answer the question in the title of your thread: because to submit is to be controlled. Let us look at definitions:

submit
One entry found for submit.


Main Entry: sub·mit
Pronunciation: s&b-'mit
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): sub·mit·ted; sub·mit·ting
Etymology: Middle English submitten, from Latin submittere to lower, submit, from sub- + mittere to send
intransitive senses
1 a : to yield oneself to the authority or will of
another : SURRENDER b : to permit oneself to be subjected to something <had to submit to surgery>
2 : to defer to or consent to abide by the opinion or authority of another


control
19 entries found for control. The first 10 are listed below.
To select an entry, click on it. For more results, click here.
control[1,transitive verb]control[2,noun]animal controlball controlbiological controlbirth controlcontrol surfacecruise controlfire controlgun control

Main Entry: 1con·trol
Pronunciation: k&n-'trOl
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): con·trolled; con·trol·ling
Etymology: Middle English controllen, from Middle French contreroller, from contrerolle copy of an account, audit, from Medieval Latin contrarotulus, from Latin contra- + Medieval Latin rotulus roll -- more at ROLL
1 a archaic : to check, test, or verify by evidence or experiments b : to incorporate suitable controls in <a controlled experiment>
2 a : to exercise restraining or directing influence over : REGULATE b : to have power over : RULE c : to reduce the incidence or severity of especially to innocuous levels <control an insect population> <control a disease>

Obviously, if you have authority to have her do what you want her to do, you have control (see definition) over her. If she agrees with your opinion/position and goes along with it, that isn't submitting, that's...wait for it...AGREEMENT. If she's submitting it is that she disagrees and is giving you authority over her. Your opinion/position is then controlling her life. Duh.

If you are saying, "Oh, no, submission means..." and white-washing it with your own definitions, that doesn't change the nature of the situation. It is more like saying, "Oh, no...pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!"

(All definitions courtesy of Merriam-Webster online dictionary.)


Maybe your definition of the role of "wife" differs from hers. What makes you inherently presuppose that your definition is superior? What makes you think you have the right to force/impose your definition upon her?


Why would she ever have to be submissive to you? This whole wanting her to submit to you concerns me deeply, to tell you the truth. I think you need therapy...because you do sound as if you have control issues.


I think you are wrong for wanting her to be submissive - period. She's a human being. Why don't you try being submissive to her for about 6 months and then tell me what you've learned about how it makes you feel as a human being? Is it respectful of her thoughts, feelings, and opinions to want her to defer to yours? If you do not respect her thoughts, feelings, and opinions, do you truly love her?

You should be asking yourself a lot of hard questions. This post says far more about you than it does about her...and what it says is not flattering, either.


Ummmm...how is being submissive acting like you are married? That's more like acting as if you are owned. Marriage does not require submissiveness on the part of either partner. It is a union of two people, not the aquisition of a woman by a man.

I think you have real issues. Bottom line is: if you want a submissive wife, and she does not wish to be submissive, THIS IS THE WRONG WOMAN FOR YOU. She made a wise decision, as did you.

Personally, I think you are, at least now, the wrong man for any woman. It takes far more courage, patience, and love to respect someone as an equal than it does to try to subjugate him/her.

this is quite normal from some women as they wont be free as before as they were . its just that women instinct that is making them like this . there is nothing to worry about . you need to make her gain your trust again . you need to assure her that it is not like this as she is thinking . . .
try it you will not be disappointed man

Hmm. Do I look at submissiveness as being controlled?

Yes, I sure do now. I was pretty darn submissive. I was also miserable.

I can only see submissiveness working if the Policy of Joint Agreement is followed to the letter. But then, that wouldn't be submitting because your H wouldn't do anything you didn't enthusiastically agree with. Submitting, by definition, denotation and connotation, procludes enthusiasm.

I am submissive in one situation though. And I've been told I'm not really that submissive then either!

I think a submissive attitude can only work if the wife is doing it out of a willing spirit. Forced submission won't work and I speak from experience on this. It's the same thing as when a wife forces her husband to participate in house chores. If he truly is onboard about the whole sharing the housework thing, then it won't be a burden. But if he is forced to do it, then he will resent it. It's the same thing with submission.

No wonder she is getting scared. You are not even married yet and you are already telling her that she has to submit to you. You see, there is a difference is submitting willingly and being told that is what is expected of you. When a woman chooses to submit to a man there will be entirely different results then when she is told that she must submit. If you are demanding that she do what ever you tell her to as long as it is "not crazy" you are in for a long, unhappy ride or no marriage.

Have you ever considered that she is an intelligent grown woman with a brain of her own? As soon as she marry's you she does not become stupid and need you to direct her every move as if she was a child.

Just FYI, there is another verse about submitting to ONE ANOTHER in love...so let's talk about how men can willingly submit, too. Is there a difference in when a man willingly submits and when you have to make him do it out of obligation? What happens when a man forces a women to participate in the household chores instead of waiting for her willing involvement?

I'm quite serious, btw, I don't think we should pick and choose our scripture based upon what is the most popular with society...after all, God's law comes before the norms of society, anyway.

In Ephesians 5, where the Bible supposedly says, "Wives submit to your husbands and husbands love your wives as Christ loved the church and gave his life for it", the word 'submit' does not appear.

In verse 21, it says 'Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ."

In the Greek texts, the next verses say, "Wives, to your husbands as to the Lord.....Husbands, love your wives as your own bodies." "He who loves his wife loves himself.....he feeds it and cares for it." "Each of you must love his wife AS HE LOVES HIMSELF and the wife must respect her husband."

Wives won't respect husbands if they aren't loved.

Didn't mean to preach but this scripture is the source of many religiously-related discussions on the matter of submission. I am not a Greek scholar. This is borrowed information.

The omission of that word was a surprise to me....Not the way I had heard it all my life.

bump

Wow. I’m fascinated. I get the submitting unto each other. I can even see it fitting in with the POJA. “You’re not enthusiastic about me doing X, so I won’t.” I know my God wouldn’t want me to “submit” if it meant someone could make all kinds of selfish demands and I’d have to do them. I can’t imagine how that would help develop a blissful relationship.

It’s interesting that women are to relate to their husbands as they do to Christ, yet, men are to love their wives and treat their wives as they treat themselves. From a practical point of view, this may make sense. “Men, don’t beat, rape, or starve your wives.” Especially when the verses were written, women had little control over their own selves.

To me, today, as a woman, the line about wives to their husbands as to Christ, makes some sense in a more abstract way. It’s not that I’m to think my husband is Christ. Honestly, that would be heresy. But, it does remind me of how spiritual the union between a man and a woman should be.

It blew me away two. NO ONE had ever said that in my presence before.

It does sound very much like POJA to me, too. And that, when choosing to do something, you should consider the other person's best interests before your own.

It's really sorta funny how seriously we have come to take OURSELVES in a union that is instituted, ordained, and protected by GOD. Look, I realize there are some who believe and those who don't- whichever you are, you may agree that I'll never be able to force someone to truly 'submit unto me' when they don't faithfully trust in God/me or my faith in both. Not even man's best friend would do such a thing..lol [color:"black"] [/color]

when something is "sub" leveled, it is not lost. Nor is it rendered useless, insignificant, or any of those other ill spirited words used to discourage and 'submit' confusion into the minds and lives of those who may find themselves yet fencesetting on the issue. Keep it simple. no one cares if you know- if they don't yet know you care. Husbands this is for us. 'Treat you Wife as yourself'...DUH! She get's the remote; the last slice; she's taken care first; anything you would do for yourself etc
Ladies: put the darn seat back up or it's every -man for themselves.

Hmm. Sub-par. Sub-normal. Subvert--that one is interesting. It is to ruin, corrupt or overthrow, I believe. Submerge. Subsibdize.

So not everything is negative. But, when one person submits to another in the common usage of the word, they are ceding power. They are no longer equals in the relationship.

Some people are quite happy to cede the power and responsibility. Others are quite happy to take the power in a relationship. However, most western women are uncomfortable with that.

Can I be honest?


If I were her I would be concerned because by the very act of living with her before marriage you are showing that you would embrace some biblical principles while abandoning others on an as needed basis.

And let's face it-Certain portions of the biblical principle of submission are discarded by many men on an as needed basis...

Just my $.02

You and I are ---> <---



"Sub" does indeed mean "beneath" no matter how you slice it.


The biblical principle of submission does require that the woman defer to the man...Yes, he is supposed to offer his protection yada yada yada, but a bird in a guilded cage is caged just the same, no?

That is one interpretation. Not all Biblical scholars agree with this interpretation.


I agree. So how do you reconcile this, the fact that men and women are supposed to "submit to one another in love", and Christ (not Paul's) teaching of "do unto one another as you would have them do unto you"? How can the husband be below the wife while the wife is below the husband? If a man "requires" his wife to submit to him, does that mean that he wants others to "require" him to submit to them?

Let's not pick and chose scripture like we are at a buffet table, here.

Ri-ight, and most men are not biblical scholars...This is why the interpetation Wife submit & defer to husband is so popular. Actually, it's also very popular because it is very useful to folks with those particular leanings. What better justification for your automatic superiority than the word of THE Lord Our God [color:"red"]him[/color]self?

Let's face it-mutual submission is damned hard work (no pun intended.) and it requires that women be viewed as persons rather than collectibles, domestic service providers, and / or sources of pleasure.

Some folks ain't trying to hear all that.



Yes-let's not; however, let us not fool ourselves into thinking that we should not be on the look out for folks who are .

in reference to Greengables post -

The Bible tells men to love their wives even as Christ loved the church, not as a man loved himself. It tells us to love our neighbor as ourself, and to love God with everything that we are.

My parents POJA'd a working definition of "submission" in their marriage. For the most part, they POJA. However, if they are ever "stuck" on an issue, Mom defers to Dad, willingly. Its worked for them for 40 years.


Mrs. W8ing

So we are to love our neighbors as ourselves.....ought we to love our spouses equally to our neighbors.

Heavens, I can't get the gender neutral pronouns to work for this.

So, I'm to love my neighbor (not meaning only the person next door) as myself. To hear him/her fairly. To consider their interest in some matters.

I owe my spouse the same consideration.

I wouldn't expect my neighbor to paint their house the color I want. So, should it be that big a deal what color car my spouse wants? Would I speak disrespectfully to my neighbor? Would I want to listen to disrespectul talk about them OR about myself? If I know my neighbor worked 11 pm - 7 am, would I always cut my grass at 7:30 a.m. or would I wait till later in the day. After all, I am to love my neighbor as myself.

What does this say about how I treat my spouse?

We cannot convince you that you don't want a submissive wife. Or that for you it is not a good thing. or "the right thing."

But if you have to convince your wife-to-be to be submissive, then that is controlling. Clearly you both want something different out of marriage. Find somebody who shares your (un-realistic) views.

Besides, if somebody told me they wanted me to submit to them, do whatever they say, and by the way give me full access to my bank account, I think I would run for the hills!

Using the word "submissive" in any relationship just sounds degrading. I guarantee women (wives) aren't treated anything like they were in the days that the bible was written. They have a greater deal of authority and respect in a relationship than they were in those days. I would just refrain from using word like "submit" and "obey". Obey was in my marriage vows.(only mine, not his) To me, a dog should be commanded to obey, not a wife. I believe we should do things for our spouses out of love, not because we are commanded to. Saying "Honey can you do me a favor.." sounds better than "You need to this for me." I didn't get married because I wanted to be someone's slave. I wanted to have a loving reationship and share my life with someone.

This whole thread makes me so frustrated! This subject has been so completely misunderstood in my opinion since the beginning of time...or at least the completion of the Bible! Why is it that the whole of the civilized world will remember and quote Ephesians 5:22a (not even the entire verse!) and take it entirely out of context??

In my readings I see Paul as writing one big, fat paragraph starting at Ephesians 5:1 and going right the whole way through to 6:20 and his topic is "living a Christian life in our relationships" (as followers of God, as wives, husbands, servants, children, brethren...).

In those HOT verses 22 through to 33 I understand Paul to be shining a huge great spotlight on WHAT MEN AND WOMEN REALLY NEED. The most important need a man has as a husband is for his wife to show him respect. And the most important need a wife has is for her husband to show her love. This doesn't mean that a husband doesn't need love and a wife doesn't need respect (heaven forbid, in this day and age!! We women are more like men than ever!) but Paul is just so incredibly on the button that he hands us, in plain black and white, the number one best-seller for a successful marriage.

How can people not understand that? I'd encourage any of you who are sitting there fuming over how unfair the world is and how women are underrated and underpaid to read the whole of Ephesians 5:1 - 6:20. Let's not overrate ourselves...it's only one verse out of 53!

After reading Tlove's post it sounds like there's a renter's agreement in there. If you read Dr. Harley's material it'll tell you so. What is being asked is sacrifice to sacrifice. All that causes is more trouble in the long run because sooner or later somebody is going to start feeling "well I sacrificed this for you so you owe me!". What Dr. Harley suggests is "do nothing without mutual enthusiastic agreement" - period. His books follow the Bible. If you have any questions on anything in there I'm sure he could be asked to explain it and where it comes from. We are ALL supposed to submit to ome another. That does not mean that if I don't like something I do it just because you ask me to. It could be really offensive to me. It does not mean that if you don't like something I ask you do it just because I ask. It means that we take each other's feelings into account and respect each other's decision NOT to do something we want if it is offensive to them! We DON'T try to force anyone to do something they don't agree with. Jesus doesn't try to force us to do anything we don't want to do. He gives us full respect for our decisions to do or not to do whatever we choose. It doesn't mean that if we don't do what He tells us to do things are going to go well - but He gives us our choice.

And as far as I'm concerned, if Tlove thinks she should "know what is expected of a wife" then he is full of crap!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Maybe where she grew up her father was a lot more respectful of her mother than he is of her. He needs to go get some counseling himself!!! He has some screwed up ideas of what a marriage is supposed to be about. He might not be taking her best interest into account when he asks something of her. And if we want to go back to the Bible it says the husband is to be to the wife what Christ was to the church - He DIED for the church!! Do you want to go die for this lady you are talking about. You might say yes now just to get what you want but with your attitude I seriously doubt it! Go get YOURSELF some help - YOU NEED IT!!