Suppose you have an exclusive relationship with someone who had a FWB relationship. Suppose further that the person you are dating wants to maintain the friendship without the benefits.

Would you be ok with that?

What if the former FWB lived far enough away that an overnight stay might occur in order for them to visit with each other?

Would you still be ok with that?

First question, yes. I would be OK with them maintaining the friendship.

Second question, no, I would not be OK with an overnight stay.

Thinking of myself, and my long-distance friend whom I've been intimate with. I would not want to give him up as a friend. But I sure would not go and visit him overnight. I certainly wouldn't expect my BF to understand. Well.... OK, say I had a business trip to his town, then I couldn't help that, and I would do anything I could to reassure my BF that I would be faithful. But I wouldn't go JUST to visit.

So, you are saying that if you stayed overnight with your friend you would have sex with him? Might have sex with him?

(((TheBigGuy)))

What I really love about your line of thinking here is that it's said with the presumption that you've first been Radically Honest with partner.... Applause..... That gets the issue on the table for y'all to POJA, which promotes a win-win situation.

That being said, I, myself, would have problem with friendships that "I" deemed to come for an unhealthy situation. Since "I" view that as unhealthy, yes "I" would have a problem with it. HOWEVER, there are circumstances that would put those problems at ease for me to where I wouldn't have those problems. Those circumstances revolve around my religous beliefs which I won't expand upon unless asked.

As to the overnight thing.... Whether it was a friendship or a FWB proposition, I would have a problem with my wife staying the night at pretty much any single man's house.

Again, I think there are parameters in which I could feel OK with this "friendship" continueing and that would have to start with open and honest communication with my spouse.

In the military we did "Risk Assessments" before manuevers. If it was deemed that a mission was too risky, we aborted the mission. As our odds increased making some assumptions of the unknown, so did our chances of completing a successful mission.

Discontinueing that relationship would leave 0 risk so that's at one end of the scale. Staying overnight at a former sex partners house would probably be at the other end of the scale. But there are also several other factors that go into it. Where is your relationship with your spouse at? Are you two at a place of security or at a place of untrusting? Will there be outside factors such as drugs or alcohol present? etc. etc......

This is a very difficult thing to compare to your situation. I have NO idea what your new GF-prospect is like, or what her former-FWB is like.

For ME, in MY situation, I would NOT go and visit my former friend overnight, because the temptation would be there. Long-distance, the safety is there, and there is no flirting or anything. We are just friends, and therefore I don't even see a NEED to visit each other, especially if we are in dating R's with other people. If we aren't seeing others, there is a little more flirting and such. So visiting in person, especially overnight, woulod be a HUGE temptation. So, while dating someone, unless the commitment were very strong, I wouldn't open myself to the temptation, because yes, I might give in.

Why would she NEED to visit him? Why wouldn't you be able to go with her? You don't have to answer - it's probably too soon, but these are the things that make the difference.

Oooppppsssss, with all this talk over the past couple of days, I kind of mis-read what you typed, even though my opinion still applies.

So two questions for you:

1. What power do you have in the situation?

2. You obviously have feelings on the matter, what are they?

Ha! I don't disagree with y'all. AND, I'm not so naive to believe that you put a man and a woman alone together and there's no possibility for sex. (although when I'm alone with a woman, that never seems to happen <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> )

The question I am exploring is...

Does POJA allow you to dictate who your SO is friends with? Does it allow you to dictate what your SO does with these friends? Does it make a difference what type of relationship your SO has had with these friends?

My question is, what is a reasonable request? What is a controlling request?

If your SO says they will not have sex with anybody else do you trust them? If you trust them do you restrict their activities so that you don't allow them to put themselves in tempting situations? Isn't THAT controlling?

BG,
I don't know why I find this topic so interesting, but I know you have been thinking about this with the threads that have been going on...it seems to be an issue with you, right? Can you share more as to what's going on with you to see if we can offer more help?
I'll tell you my deal (and hopefully I won't be labled insecure, but if I am, so be it! To me, it's a respect issue!)
Here's me: I would NEVER EVER cheat on anyone. If I've told you I'm committed to you, then I am. I don't need a piece of paper, it's what I do, and I expect the same in return.
I'm a VERY outgoing gal and I have LOTS and LOTS of friends and lots of occassions to go out and hang with all of them. I've never had a FWB, because I don't want one. I want the whole thing or nothing. I can keep my sex needs under control enough to live without until I find that someone special.
Anyway, when I DO go out, I get looked at, talked to, approached, whatever you want to say...and I take great pains to act in a respectful way to my man...whether he is around or not. I don't ever want him to feel that I would want anyone but him! Although now writing this I wonder if I should ask if he cares about it like I do?!
I take the effort to be this way because it's how I want to be treated in return. So to sum up my long explanation, I would NEVER think of going to see someone I had been intimate with at one time. I wouldn't want my man to feel like he would ever have to worry, be unsure, whatever. And like I said, to me, it's a respect thing. There are too many people out there who are so flippant with their SO's feelings. I, for one, want to feel like he would never have a reason to doubt me.
So...if YOU had, at one time a FWB, would YOU go see her and expect your SO to be okay with it?

Oops, I was writing when you posted, so I want to address that too!
I don't think you can ever dictate who your SO is friends with. That's their life and their deal.
I think in your situation you are obviously struggling with trusting this gal, and I don't know what the reasons are, but I DO think you need to talk to her about it. If, like I said in my earlier post, she has any respect for you she will take it under consideration and not go see this former FWB.
Only you know if you can trust her or not...and I get the feeling, as I said, that you are struggling with it. But if you are exclusive, if it's come to at least talking about that, then I think you have a right to express your concerns...
I think it's controlling to try to restrict or request who they see or talk to. You have to find someone that you trust enough to know you don't have to worry about it!

Once you become exclusive, its a reasonable request that they not stay with an out-of-town former-FWB without you. "Dictate", "demand", and "restrict" are all controlling words, and surely you don't mean them that way. All you can do is make requests, POJA, and either decide if you live with the results, or not, right?

Trust is built over time. If she makes promises to you and keeps them regularly, or... if she hasn't given you a reason to doubt her, then you should be able to trust her on most things.

Yes, if we were exclusive and I promised you I was going to have lunch with a former-FWB, but nothing would happen, and if I had gained your trust, I would hope you would allow me the freedom to do so, and I would fulfill my end of the bargain as well. And if I was in an exclusive R with you, I would NEVER ask you to allow me to stay overnight with him, and would never put myself in that tempting situation. It leaves too much doubt and is unfair to everyone.

Last year, my BF at the time, and I travelled to the city where my FWB lives. He knew I was going to try to see him for lunch or something while he was in his seminar, and he was fine with it. It never worked out - I never even reached him on the phone. (I think he was avoiding me! LOL) I was having some doubts about my BF at the time (we broke up the next month), but had I actually met the friend, and if he had pushed me into something physical, I'm sure I would have said no. But an overnight stay alone is different, and every situation is different.

I don't KNOW if your GF-to-be would be in a sitch like that... but the potential (temptation) is always there. YES, you have every right, if you are exclusive, to request it. If she's not understanding, I think you have problems.

"Does POJA allow you to dictate who your SO is friends with? Does it allow you to dictate what your SO does with these friends?

No, POJA never includes dictates; it's about negotiation and compromise -- uh, joint agreement.

"Does it make a difference what type of relationship your SO has had with these friends?""

No. Not to you it shouldn't. Your only concern is your relationship with her. As long as she is maintaining adequate boundries, you must respect her right as an individual to make choices for herself. She's your SO, not your child, ward or slave.

"My question is, what is a reasonable request? What is a controlling request?"

Reasonable: "I appreciate that you wish to see your friend, but I have to admit, given your history, I am very uncomfortable with his staying in our home while he is here. Wouldn't it be better if you put him up in a hotel?"

Unreasonable: "You may not continue being friends with someone you were once sexual with. Break off all contact with him immediately."

After marriage, all opposite-sex "friendships" must change! Because [whether it will ever be admitted and/or recognized] in every such case one and/or the other will have feelings/emotions/motives that are more than "just friends". And given the right mix of negative/positive experiences for both, those "feelings" will at some point cause action to follow.

This can happen in a purely emotional level from afar (email, phone, etc.) and/or it can happen in a physical way.

Need proof: How many affairs happen between "just friends"? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

FR

Well, let me give a little more personal perspective on the whole thing.

When I was first married, I knew my H (now XH) had a girlfriend before me, and they were intimate. It so happened that a trip for his work came up where he was going to be in the general area where she lived at that time, which was not near us. He wanted to take a couple of extra days for that work trip and go up and see her and her daughter. Doing so would mean staying with them.

He asked me if I would be all right with this. I talked to the ex-girlfriend, and we were friendly. I trusted him completely, and had no problems with it. Yes, I was VERY naive.

Fast forward to the past few years. Once I started becoming suspicious about his activities and wondering if there were affairs going on, I started wondering about some of those past instances such as that one where I had trusted him so much. Once I found out about the affair, plus a whole lot of other questionable circumstances, I started questioning early things like this trip to visit the old girlfriend as well. (I claim there were multiple affairs - he still claims there was only one. Sorry, but if you say "well, it was supposed to be that, but we decided we worked better as just friends," it was an affair. And there was more than just that.) He was greatly offended that I would suspect there was more than just a visit there - after all, her young daughter was there, and they were in the same room, and blah, blah, blah....

Now, bottom line, he lied so much, so often, and about so many things, it didn't really matter. I just assume that the trip to see the old girlfriend was one more lie, because it probably was, and it doesn't matter if it was or not anyway. I'll never get the truth about it all from him anyway, and since he is now my XH, it doesn't really matter.

But let's say there weren't all those multiple circumstances and lies. Let's say he tried to mostly come clean. But then I had one or two things hanging around in the past like the visit to the old girlfriend, where I trusted him, and where I have no way of telling what really happened now, other than what he tells me. And I know he's likely to lie about it. What would this have done to our recovery?

Worse yet, say some crazy woman at his work wanted to have an affair, he turned her down, and she decided to cause him problems, so she started telling me stories. And his visits with old girlfriends then started popping into my mind, making me question things even more.

No, aside from the fact that under the right circumstances anyone can be tempted, I would think that the potential for trouble far outweighs any benefit there might possibly be. And if an SO insisted this kind of visit was important, I would start wondering about the SO's priorities.

This is, for me, one of those lessons learned the hard way.

I’d just like to add that early on in our “exclusive” stages, my now wife and I talked about opposite sex friendships as a whole. Now my history did not include any women that I had done the dirty deed with but there were some with varying levels of either physical or emotional intimacy. We talked about each person and together came to an agreement on what level of comfort we’d have citing different circumstances. In doing so we also examined the strength and health of the friendships. We did this all very openly and honestly. Through that process a level of comfort and assurance was provided with each person. Another thing that came out of that for me, was a better understanding on not only my now wife but also the serious health of some of my friendships. Funny thing is that by the end of the conversation, pretty much all the ones that she had problems with, I realized that I also had problems with.

But again ((BigGuy)), how we feel about this is pretty much useless, the serious question is how do you feel about it and what power do you have over the situation?

For the record....

No, she is not asking to do this specifically. She has in the past had guys ask her to break off the friendship completely. In the 42 page Agreement of Exclusivity document I had her sign, the only thing I really required is that she stop having sex with him. Now I'm wondering if I need an addendum for sleepovers. (j/k)

I trust her. She has never given me any reason not to. Besides, if I didn't trust her, why would I want to be in a relationship with her.

Maintaining the friendship, sure.

Overnight stays, no.

Before we assume I'm backpeddling, let me say that once you enter into an "Exclusive" relationship, I think out of respect, and a gesture of good faith, the "exclusive" relationship takes precedence.

To be perfectly honest, my former FWB and I rarely, if ever, will be found alone together. It's just a very uncomfortable feeling for both of us. It's not temptation or anything like that, just to us, it feels inappropriate. But we've also been the victims of an A, so we're really mindful of the implications. Like I said.... alot of tending, and honesty required, not only with each other, but everyone.

So do you trust her enough and believe enough in the exclusivety of the relationship to take down the matchdotcom addy and stop the window shopping?

"In the 42 page Agreement of Exclusivity document I had her sign"

Say what? TBG, you're joking, right?

Part of this too is questioning how good MB really is?

Do you really trust MB to work?

Is it really possible to build an affair proof relationship? I mean, if a person wants to have an affair, then they're going to have an affair. If a person's ENs are being totally met by the person they are with, why would they want SF with anyone else? Irregardless of who, when, where, and why.

If I'm meeting all of her ENs to the point that she doesn't want anybody else, then why should I care if she sleeps overnight with a former FWB?

I've already hidden my profile.

In a dating R, the piece that's missing for most people is the commitment. That final decision of doing everything possible to keep the relationship intact. Protection and care. If that commitment hasn't been made, some people think its worth the risk to make their own decisions and risk losing the relationship. And... no matter HOW many EN's you're meeting, you still can't fulfill her life. Some people are still going to search and search to find happiness, even if it means sacrificing morals and good relationships.

Why would she be SLEEPING overnight with a former FWB? WHat's the point? Just for a visit? Weird.

And conversely...

If I'm not meeting all of her ENs, then I really don't want to let her out of Paragraph 121, Item A which states she can never leave the house without her Burkha.

TBG, What really is the point of this thread? Are all these questions of your rhetorical or do you really need answers to them. If it is the later, you may wish to consider backing off of this new relationship.

Part of this too is questioning how good MB really is?

"Do you really trust MB to work?"

MB is nothing new. It is rather a very well organized way of teaching people to conduct themselves in ways that are conducive to maintaining a good marital relationship. Yes, it will work if both partners are committed to making it work.



"Is it really possible to build an affair proof relationship? I mean, if a person wants to have an affair, then they're going to have an affair. "

There is no way ever to garuantee that you can build an affair-proof relationship, since you can only control the behavior of one person: yourself.


"If a person's ENs are being totally met by the person they are with, why would they want SF with anyone else?"

Got me, buddy. It happens. Some people have affairs because their ENs aren't being met. Others because they are in sexless marriages. Some have problems with impulse control. Others are manipulated into the affair. Some are just selfish and if they want something, they will just do it and everyone else can be damned.

"If I'm meeting all of her ENs to the point that she doesn't want anybody else, then why should I care if she sleeps overnight with a former FWB?"

Again, say what? I don't understand your thinking on this one. Is this not covered in your 42-page Agreement of Exclusivity?

Oh, you scamp! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Quote

Does POJA allow you to dictate who your SO is friends with? Does it allow you to dictate what your SO does with these friends? Does it make a difference what type of relationship your SO has had with these friends?

I wouldn't POJA who my partner's friends were--I'd simply POJA putting ourselves in risky situations. I might POJA the same matter if my SO suddenly decided to take skydiving lessons.

Let's not forget--emotions play a role---I don't know if I could be left alone for an evening with someone who had been fulfilling my sexual needs for a long period of time...not because I'm morally corrupt, but simply because the sexual need may supercede what I have with my current SO.

I'm not one to separate issues like this--if I could have a completely emotionless "friends with benefits" relationship with someone, then it would stand to reason that it would be okay to CONTINUE a relationship like that if I was in a relationship with another person. I would like to think that if I could have sex with someone devoid of an emotional attachment, then that should be ok if I have an emotional attachment with another person while I have strictly emotionless, no strings attached sex with someone else. Since this isn't socially acceptable to men or women, I have never engaged in this kind of activity...although logically, it makes sense to me.

Ultimately, dating is about evaluating how a person fits with you--if you have to POJA and discuss meeting each other's important needs, then that isn't the person for you. Why would you want to "work" on a relationship with someone when you could simply find the person who meets the majority of your needs, right off the bat?

Because he really is a friend. Because they don't have SF every time they get together. Because they enjoy their friendship. Because it's too much of a hassle to spend more time on the road getting to and from there than actually being there.

Honestly, if they wanted to have SF with each other, wouldn't an hour suffice? They really don't have to spend the night together. And truthfully, I would ask she get a hotel room, but still, that doesn't guarantee she use it.

Aside from chaperoning her visit with this guy, I'd have to trust her to keep he word to me. The alternative is to ask her to end her friendship, and I'm not going to do that.

But seriously, I don't think it will ever be an issue because I don't think she would do it. Never having been in a FWB relationship, I was just curious how much trust I could reasonably afford.

Yes, an hour would suffice. That's why I told my little story about my potential lunch with my friend. Long-distance friends is one thing, although emotional connection is something to be afraid of as well, in some cases. (None of us, including you, yet, understand all the pieces, and depth, of this friendship) Friendship "lunch" visits are another thing. But DEFINITELY overnight stays leaves way too much doubt. IMO.

I agree with something Check was trying to get at. Why are you asking all this? Are you putting a cart before a horse in a new R? If you haven't crossed these bridges, are you over-analyzing a bit? If she's resisting your reasonable requests and comfort-zones, and accusing you of being controlling, those may be red-flags. OTOH, its a brand new R, and pushing things (even some requests) too fast is dangerous........... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Because I'm bored. Because I'm tired of hypocrisy this and hypocrisy that discussions. Because I like to see how other people think on issues that I think may be slam dunk questions.




Hmmm... you must have read my profile. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />




Nope, she has done none of those things.

If you are MBing, then you do not POJA time with other people of the opposite sex. It goes against MB principles to be alone in this situation. If the friendship is POJAd, then the friendship changes to include the new partner/spouse. If the FWOB or S is not comfortable socializing with the new S, then the friendship must end.

Now I'm not just talking theoretically here. My X had many FWOBs and I pretty much had to take it. When our marriage was on the rocks, guess where he got his benefits? He married one of them after we divorced.


Mrs. W8ing

Where is this stated?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

I have another suggestion...

Instead of worrying about whether you are controlling by trying to POJA this issue, why not consider this to be an awesome opportunity? An opportunity to learn more about your new GF?

Dating is all about evaluating compatibility, not forcing or POJAing it. If you and she are incompatible in your outlooks on opposite sex friendships, then put it on your list of "things to review before deciding if this person is right for me". If you are doing your job, your list should already have a number of entries in it <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

So instead of "giving in" or worrying about forcing her to give in, or even tryin gto resolve it by POJA, how about having a discussion with her about it, and seeing how she feels? It might tell you a lot about her, and you really do want to learn about her right now, not push or encourage her into agreeing with you while possibly hiding her true preferences. That's what dating is all about.

If (for instance) you believe that a serious relationship (once you get to one) implies no close opposite sex friends, while she thinks it's perfectly fine ("Don't you trust me??!!"), you may have a big red flag on your hands. My ex and I had that kind of a different outlook, let's just say it caused endless problems.

Anyway, my point is that instead of worrying about what the rest of us think about the issue, I would use this as an opportunity to see where she stands on this issue, and compare it to where you stand. It might tell you a lot about future compatibility.

AGG

How to Avoid an Affair:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5024_qa.html

and

How Do Affairs Begin

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5059_qa.html
Affairs are almost always with friends and co-workers. That's because the people you work with and those you spend leisure time with are usually in the best position to meet your most important emotional needs.

I totally agree! Big Guy, this is an opportunity for you to see if you and your GF see eye to eye on this hugely important issue - if yes, great, if not, something to think about. It doesn't matter how we here feel about it, it is a test of your compatibility in outlooks with your GF.

FWB, FWOB, GFs, BFs, ex-fiances, ex-spouses......

All of us have had many people in our lives at various levels of intimacy. Somehow, we've come to accept that once the "romantic" part of a relationship ends, we dispose of these people. Can't everyone understand that this thinking automatically gets extended to whatever relationships we currently have? People are not disposable. While we may break up, get divorced, or loose track of one another, that is no reason whatsoever to automatically preclude any chance of some future, albeit limited relationship with that person.

Just because you once had sex with someone, doesn't mean that you will ever have sex with that person again. I have a few female friends who were once lovers and I have no intention of ever having sex with them again. So the current woman in my life, wife or otherwise, has no right to tell me that I cannot remain friends with these women. She does have the right to demand that ALL my friends, not just the women, be a friend of our marriage. She does have the right to insist that I maintain good boundries against inappropriate intimacy. Finally, she does have the right to expect that I will spend all but occasional free time with her, instead of flitting about with friends.

TBG, I have to ask this. Just a few weeks ago, you clearly stated that your goal was to date around, freeload, as you called it. You stated that you had a tendancy to get in too fast, too deep, and gave too much of yourself. Because of this, you didn't want to get into a relationship. Many of us thought you had a great idea. You were into multple dating and had no idea of settling in on any one woman for awhile. That was just a few weeks ago and here you are in a relationship discussing matters that usually couples don't even begin thinking about until they are much farther along. What changed for you? Is it possible that you may be reverting to the pattern of behavior you have been trying to overcome? I don't really expect an answer to that last question, but rather that you think about it yourself. I guess I'm a bit confused because it is very difficult to figure out which of your questions are simply posed for the sake of general discussion, which you desire answers to, and which are you just clowning around.

This is a multifaceted question TBG. Is it that you aren't certain you can be OK with her spending time with this guy or is that you don't like that she had a FWB relationship & maybe likes the life style & may not be able to commit to you even if her words say she wants to?

Does this bring into the forefront some trust issues?

Timing is a factor too. Was the FWB relationship a while ago, like years ago & only once or was it recent & she's had several of these relationships?

For me, a recent FWB relationship would make it difficult to feel he was able to commit the way I'd like him to so I could feel safe. So would more than one of these relationships. I'd have in my head that he was capable of sex without much else to tie him to me & wonder if I was in that position. Lots to consider.

Another quote from that page...

""Last week I got a letter from a man whose wife has a close friendship with his best friend (male). His friend and his wife do almost everything together recreationally. He wrote to say that I was dead wrong about his particular spouse, and that my advice that friends outside of marriage should be same-sex friends was paranoid. He trusted his wife, and she could spend as much time with this friend as she wanted to. My response was for him to write me again in three years and let me know if he felt the same way after he discovered that his wife and best friend were having an affair ""

Very good, check and nams. TBG, I realllyyyy hope you'll try to address these....

OK... but only because you asked nice...

Let me answer nams first.


I am certain I can be OK with her spending time with this guy. She says she wouldn't sleep with him. I believe her. They aren't together enough for him to supplant any EN I might not be meeting. If she wants to sleep with him, she knows I'm out the door. Its a relationship that's not going to go anywhere because he doesn't want her kids on a full time basis. Don't get me wrong, he likes the kids, its just that he wants to be a grandparent without having to be a parent first.

If she's willing to risk her relationship with me by sleeping (SF) with him, then obviously she places too little value on our relationship and we shouldn't be having one. If she wants her cake and eat it too, then I will have to be vigilant for signs.



No, I don't mind that she had a FWB. Like so many women I seem to end up with, she doesn't know what it is that she wants. The FWB lifestyle is safe for her. She doesn't risk her emotions that way. And perhaps, she will go back to it. I don't know. There are no guarantees in life. I accept that. I've decided I'm willing to take the chance with her because even if it doesn't work out for us, I am learning a great deal about myself... as I will explain below.



Short answer: Nothing.

Long Answer: Things were going fine multiple dating. This girl brought up exclusivity. I've decided that once that subject is brought up, then you need to either be exclusive or stop seeing them. I wasn't ready to stop seeing her, so I opted to go exclusive with her.

Why wasn't I ready to stop seeing this one but ready to stop seeing the others? She challenges me. She pushes me to see how much crap I'm willing to put up with. I am learning how not to be the wussy nice guy. Is this using her? Probably so. Don't get me wrong, I like her and wouldn't be with her if I didn't think there was some possibility that it might work out. And I've been honest with her about all of this. She thinks I'm full of cr*p, but she likes me anyway.



Let me share with you a passage from my online profile...

""I've also been told that I think too much, an analyzer. I break ideas/concepts apart to figure out how it all fits together.""

What can I say... it's what I do.

TBG, you quoted from Dr. Harley:
"Last week I got a letter from a man whose wife has a close friendship with his best friend (male)."

My friend's XW's infidelity started out with a friend like this... to quote Croce, 'a guy she said knew well and sometimes hated...' Sadly, things changed, and he lost his wife AND his best friend.

On another note, I just want to say that I think you have a great sense of humor, but I hope she put a few addendums of her own in before she signed the exclusivity agreement... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

CS

Here's something else I wonder when it comes to the people comfortable with a FWB relationship.

If they are capable of reserving themselves with something as intimate as sex, to spearate a very special part of an intimate relationship out, are they capable of really connecting?

I'm not so sure we have such control of our emotions as this relationship suggests. Yes, it all sounds plausible on paper, just keep the "real" emotions, the ones that make us want to connect with that person on a very deep level, aside & all is well. I just don't know that I'd be able to fully trust someone who can whack off or put aside a piece of themselves so they can satisify a physical need we can meet on our own, though in not as satisying a way.

I also wonder if we aren't taking away from the special connection we feel when we're physically intimate with a person we "love" when we seem capable of separating out the physical. Does this then make us less able to fully engage in that special bond we want when we are physically intimate with someone we want that bond with? Can we still have that deep trusting connection, or trust that to be real in our partner when we know it's been kept at bay before. If they were acting in a sense then are they acting now?

If I've been redundant, sorry, gotta run & don't have time to weed. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

TGB, your long answer concerns me:

"Long Answer: Things were going fine multiple dating. This girl brought up exclusivity. I've decided that once that subject is brought up, then you need to either be exclusive or stop seeing them. I wasn't ready to stop seeing her, so I opted to go exclusive with her."

You had a plan for yourself and it was going well. You didn't want an exclusive relationship. Yet, all it takes is for a woman in whom you have interest to bring up the subject of exclusivity and you abandon your plan on what is a spurious assumption. Don't you think it may have been wiser to stick with your plan, explain to her why you were doing it, and let her decide if she could buy in? Women will almost always broach the subject of exclusivity before the man. They have their reasons for doing this. If you aren't ready for an exclusive relationship and she is, no matter how much you like her, the two of you are at cross purposes and someone has to abandon their their position utterly, since there can be no compromize. This puts the relationship on the wrong footing right from the start. And consider this. It doesn't appear that you are terribly enthusiastic about being in an exclusive relationship. In all probability at some point in the future, you are going to decide that abandoning your plan was a mistake and you don't want to be in an exclusive relationship. By then, this woman is going to have some justifiable expectations and will probably be emotionally invested. Then bam! She's hip out of the blue with being dumped.

This exact same scenario just played itself out for a woman in my office. She tried to understand the man's flip-flop, but utimately decided that he is "a useless, lying, as*hole, who should have stuck to his guns instead of playing with my heart." And she asked me "why do you men do such stupid things?" My short answer: "sex."

Sorry, my friend, but I fear you have made a mistake here.

Nams, your point is well taken, which is why such relationships are definitely not for just anyone. Both partners need to be on the same page and have the same expectations.

"I also wonder if we aren't taking away from the special connection we feel when we're physically intimate with a person we "love" when we seem capable of separating out the physical."

Men have done this since the beginning of time. Sex does not necessarily equal love for us and we are quite capable of seperating the physical from the emotional. If this weren't true the "oldest profession" would never come about.

You are thinking too narrowly, my friend.

My plan is two fold. Develop my relationship skills in order to improve my chances at a successful second marriage, and, find the right person to practice these skills with in a second marriage. Singular, multiple, TAKER, GIVER... everything is subordinate to my master plan.

Is it a risk to go exclusive when I know I tend to fall hard and fast? Yes, it is a calculated risk I chose to take because I felt the situation called for it and the benefit outweighed. Is it the correct decision? Only time will tell.



You know what? That's life. Relationships fail. Sometimes there are good reasons, sometimes there are sh*tty reasons. That doesn't mean you don't take the chance.

I have no guarantee that she's going to want to stay in a relationship with me. Right now she's having serious second thoughts because she thinks it is really weird for someone to get relationship advice from complete strangers over the internet. Is that a good reason to break up with someone? Personally, I don't think so, but it may happen.

All we really know is that she likes me and I like her and we enjoy being together.

((Nams))

I think you have a wonderful point and I’ll like to explore that just a bit. I’m actually going to use Checks remarks to illustrate. I’m sure you won’t mind ((Check))…

“””Men have done this since the beginning of time. Sex does not necessarily equal love for us and we are quite capable of separating the physical from the emotional. If this weren't true the "oldest profession" would never come about.”””

I think it’s safe to say that “WE” as human’s are capable of many things including separating physical acts from our emotions. The question becomes is it healthy and will it promote future health, furthermore will we become detached from those emotions in the future. After all people are capable of cold blooded murder without emotion. But I think a better model exists within the United States Military, which I was a part of. Because of hard earned lessons of war, new training techniques were implemented to “de-sensitize” American fighters. Instead of shooting at bulls eye targets, they began shooting at silhouettes of their enemy. Training became so realistic that shooting and be emotionless towards a person became second nature. Which sadly, to a point it had to be. This was met with much perceived success and major law enforcement agencies around this country adopted many of these principles. Well through the headlines with atrocities of combat and police brutality it also became apparent that one can become TOO de-sensitized to the point of truly being void of emotion. Thus the call through our military and police forces for “sensitivity” training. This certainly isn’t the only example of how fondling the brain to the point that it lacks emotion has hurt humanity. There are school shooting that fall along these same lines and many other acts…..

So when Check says that it’s a delicate situation. I believe he’s very correct and without knowing it someone in this type of situation may place their self in a mind set where without serious mental intervention that they may not experience the wonderful fruits of a truly close intimate relationship.

To sorta answer nams... And this is not really off-topic, because it could pertain to BigGuy's lady-friend, although it could also go on the FWB thread.

IMO, women can participate in a FWB R, and therefore separate the sex from the the "love" thing for a variety of reasons. Either it's a more healthy thing where she is just at that point in her life - either just doesn't *want* to invest herself emotionally in a romantic R - or can't (because she's been hurt, just ended a R, etc)... and she just wants the enjoyment of SF from someone she knows and trusts .... orrrrrr.... she has deeper issues of trust and emotional involvement that come from the past (childhood, abusive spouse, etc) that allow her to separate sex from love and actually prevent her from connecting the 2.

So determining which of these reasons she has HAD a FWB might be important for the future of your R.

Not a problem LH.....

"The question becomes is it healthy and will it promote future health, furthermore will we become detached from those emotions in the future."

I could not agree more, which is why I have never engage in casual sex or sought the comforts of a prostitute. The trick is not to detach oneself from emotions, but to completely understand them and control them. Too many people fail to do this and become slaves to their emotions, which leads to a chaotic life.

I cannot reiterate enough, that an FWBR is definitely not for everyone. I would caution anyone considering such an arragement to be brutally honest with him/herself before jumping.

It is important to note that a FWBR is not one devoid of emotional attachment. In my particular case, there is a strong emotiona attachment and even committment - just not to the extend of marriage.

TBG, not thinking narrowly, just trying to understand. I'm goin to accept that you are doing what you feel is best for you. About this statement in a response to mine:

"You know what? That's life. Relationships fail. "

No, no, no, no, no, TBG. This is not right. You never enter a relationship with this mindset. One never risks hurting another. That's why I preach so much about self knowledge and careful, slow approaches.

Now, think about how your statement is contrary to MB principles but replacing one word:

You know what? That's life. Marriages fail.
(how many times have we heard people uses this line?)

Yeah, you are MBing to prevent that. The best chance of success is to start MBing and adopting it's philosophy right from the start.

BigGuy,

Like Check, I am a little surprised at this rapid turnaround in your approach. You said that you are working on your relationship skills, which is why you started with multiple dating instead of anything exclusive.

Realistically, it's probably a matter of many months to develop relationship skills, not a few weeks, which is how long I believe you have been at this multiple dating thing.

Moreover, just two weeks ago you said this about who I understand to be the same woman:


So this woman is dishonest, but you are now in an exclusive relationship with her? Simply because you like her and she gave you an ultimatum?

And if you were upset about her wanting an exclusive relationship while professing to be multiple dating, how do you explain the fact that you are now doing the exact same thing?

And not only that, you are already wondering if it's OK for her to have overnight visits to an ex sex-partner?

And when the kids should be brought into the picture?

Pretty quick changes here, BigGuy, which would be a red flag to me.

I am not hammering on you, I just have the benefit of observing things from the outside (i.e. I am not invested), and it sure seems like a very quick change of course. I am just trying to look out for you, BigGuy <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

Wassup?

AGG

Ha! AGG, of all people I thought you would be the happiest that I'm singular dating now! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

No, this is not the same woman. I ended the relationship you are referring to... two weeks ago.




I didn't ask the question because I am looking for advice. I searched the archives and didn't see a thread like this one and being a good forum member thought it was important and pertinent enough to discuss.

I am always intensely curious for other points of view even if I have formed my own opinions. This is one of those cases. Believe you me, when it comes to my kids, I err on the side of caution.




:sniff: :sniff: I love you too man!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/teary.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hehe <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />...

So I am still a bit concerned for you that you are less than 2 months out of a serious relationship, and with just a few weeks of multiple dating under your belt you feel that you are ready for exclusivity again.

Maybe you are, I won't say that you're not... Just keep an eye out for falling right back into the old patterns that you say you have a habit of falling into <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

Keep us posted,

AGG

I have to agree with the rest that it seems awfully sudden for you to have this "change of heart" or "change of plans" might be better wording.

One question I have is why is she now wanting to go visit this other guy? Is this the same guy she just let go right before you came into the "exclusive" picture? Seems like she might be testing your boundaries to see how much you'll put up with.

Screams red flag to me but that's just my humble opinion.

You're a grown man who's gonna do what he wants...Good Luck

Ronda

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

I suspect there is a very important message in those words... Your task is to find out what that message is <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

AGG

Update to this situation...

In between Breakup #3 and Breakup #4, M and I agreed to allow each other to date other people. Of course, she went back to dating her friend. I have to say that it really is a relationship that will never progress past a dating relationship. I mean, he's been with her for 5 years and has never introduced her or her kids to his parents.

I on the other hand drug my feet and didn't really make an effort to meet other women.

To be fair, we were still spending a lot of time together every day either on the phone or being together. It was very easy for her to resume dating her friend as they spend a total of about 15 minutes a week on the phone, plus what ever time they spend together. Whereas meeting someone completely new takes time. I needed Breakup #4 to motivate me to make the effort.

It's an easy relationship for her. She doesn't really have to work at it. For where she's at in her life, I would say that she doesn't really want much more.

Harley many times advocates breaking off all contact with someone that is attractive to you or was your "affair" partner - read sexual partner.

[quote}]First, you should avoid seeing the man at work altogether, and it will mean quitting your job. You are already addicted to him, and your emotions will control your decisions whenever you see each other. It won't be long before you have thought through a justification of your behavior, and then there will be no stopping you. You will lose all perspective and ruin your marriage and family, to say nothing about intentionally hurting a man who cares a great deal for you. Six months after your affair has started you will be so up to your eyeballs in guilt you will be contemplating suicide. Get this man out of your life at all costs!

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5024_qa.html

[/quote]

V.

Nor is he her child ward or slave.

He can say, as I would say, "I feel very uncomfortable with your judgement in this matter, and have chosen to discontinue my relationship with you."

I would not have a relationship with a woman who had previously been promiscuous - by which I mean that she had multiple intimate relationships outside of marriage. A history of indulging in FWB would be a disqualifing factor for me.

-AD

FWB is full of danger. It only makes sense if neither person has an intimate relationship with another person. Even then, how do you date Jane and then visit friend Sue and have sex with Sue? What does Jane think of that?