OK... but only because you asked nice...

Let me answer nams first.


I am certain I can be OK with her spending time with this guy. She says she wouldn't sleep with him. I believe her. They aren't together enough for him to supplant any EN I might not be meeting. If she wants to sleep with him, she knows I'm out the door. Its a relationship that's not going to go anywhere because he doesn't want her kids on a full time basis. Don't get me wrong, he likes the kids, its just that he wants to be a grandparent without having to be a parent first.

If she's willing to risk her relationship with me by sleeping (SF) with him, then obviously she places too little value on our relationship and we shouldn't be having one. If she wants her cake and eat it too, then I will have to be vigilant for signs.



No, I don't mind that she had a FWB. Like so many women I seem to end up with, she doesn't know what it is that she wants. The FWB lifestyle is safe for her. She doesn't risk her emotions that way. And perhaps, she will go back to it. I don't know. There are no guarantees in life. I accept that. I've decided I'm willing to take the chance with her because even if it doesn't work out for us, I am learning a great deal about myself... as I will explain below.



Short answer: Nothing.

Long Answer: Things were going fine multiple dating. This girl brought up exclusivity. I've decided that once that subject is brought up, then you need to either be exclusive or stop seeing them. I wasn't ready to stop seeing her, so I opted to go exclusive with her.

Why wasn't I ready to stop seeing this one but ready to stop seeing the others? She challenges me. She pushes me to see how much crap I'm willing to put up with. I am learning how not to be the wussy nice guy. Is this using her? Probably so. Don't get me wrong, I like her and wouldn't be with her if I didn't think there was some possibility that it might work out. And I've been honest with her about all of this. She thinks I'm full of cr*p, but she likes me anyway.



Let me share with you a passage from my online profile...

""I've also been told that I think too much, an analyzer. I break ideas/concepts apart to figure out how it all fits together.""

What can I say... it's what I do.

TBG, you quoted from Dr. Harley:
"Last week I got a letter from a man whose wife has a close friendship with his best friend (male)."

My friend's XW's infidelity started out with a friend like this... to quote Croce, 'a guy she said knew well and sometimes hated...' Sadly, things changed, and he lost his wife AND his best friend.

On another note, I just want to say that I think you have a great sense of humor, but I hope she put a few addendums of her own in before she signed the exclusivity agreement... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

CS

Here's something else I wonder when it comes to the people comfortable with a FWB relationship.

If they are capable of reserving themselves with something as intimate as sex, to spearate a very special part of an intimate relationship out, are they capable of really connecting?

I'm not so sure we have such control of our emotions as this relationship suggests. Yes, it all sounds plausible on paper, just keep the "real" emotions, the ones that make us want to connect with that person on a very deep level, aside & all is well. I just don't know that I'd be able to fully trust someone who can whack off or put aside a piece of themselves so they can satisify a physical need we can meet on our own, though in not as satisying a way.

I also wonder if we aren't taking away from the special connection we feel when we're physically intimate with a person we "love" when we seem capable of separating out the physical. Does this then make us less able to fully engage in that special bond we want when we are physically intimate with someone we want that bond with? Can we still have that deep trusting connection, or trust that to be real in our partner when we know it's been kept at bay before. If they were acting in a sense then are they acting now?

If I've been redundant, sorry, gotta run & don't have time to weed. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

TGB, your long answer concerns me:

"Long Answer: Things were going fine multiple dating. This girl brought up exclusivity. I've decided that once that subject is brought up, then you need to either be exclusive or stop seeing them. I wasn't ready to stop seeing her, so I opted to go exclusive with her."

You had a plan for yourself and it was going well. You didn't want an exclusive relationship. Yet, all it takes is for a woman in whom you have interest to bring up the subject of exclusivity and you abandon your plan on what is a spurious assumption. Don't you think it may have been wiser to stick with your plan, explain to her why you were doing it, and let her decide if she could buy in? Women will almost always broach the subject of exclusivity before the man. They have their reasons for doing this. If you aren't ready for an exclusive relationship and she is, no matter how much you like her, the two of you are at cross purposes and someone has to abandon their their position utterly, since there can be no compromize. This puts the relationship on the wrong footing right from the start. And consider this. It doesn't appear that you are terribly enthusiastic about being in an exclusive relationship. In all probability at some point in the future, you are going to decide that abandoning your plan was a mistake and you don't want to be in an exclusive relationship. By then, this woman is going to have some justifiable expectations and will probably be emotionally invested. Then bam! She's hip out of the blue with being dumped.

This exact same scenario just played itself out for a woman in my office. She tried to understand the man's flip-flop, but utimately decided that he is "a useless, lying, as*hole, who should have stuck to his guns instead of playing with my heart." And she asked me "why do you men do such stupid things?" My short answer: "sex."

Sorry, my friend, but I fear you have made a mistake here.

Nams, your point is well taken, which is why such relationships are definitely not for just anyone. Both partners need to be on the same page and have the same expectations.

"I also wonder if we aren't taking away from the special connection we feel when we're physically intimate with a person we "love" when we seem capable of separating out the physical."

Men have done this since the beginning of time. Sex does not necessarily equal love for us and we are quite capable of seperating the physical from the emotional. If this weren't true the "oldest profession" would never come about.

You are thinking too narrowly, my friend.

My plan is two fold. Develop my relationship skills in order to improve my chances at a successful second marriage, and, find the right person to practice these skills with in a second marriage. Singular, multiple, TAKER, GIVER... everything is subordinate to my master plan.

Is it a risk to go exclusive when I know I tend to fall hard and fast? Yes, it is a calculated risk I chose to take because I felt the situation called for it and the benefit outweighed. Is it the correct decision? Only time will tell.



You know what? That's life. Relationships fail. Sometimes there are good reasons, sometimes there are sh*tty reasons. That doesn't mean you don't take the chance.

I have no guarantee that she's going to want to stay in a relationship with me. Right now she's having serious second thoughts because she thinks it is really weird for someone to get relationship advice from complete strangers over the internet. Is that a good reason to break up with someone? Personally, I don't think so, but it may happen.

All we really know is that she likes me and I like her and we enjoy being together.

((Nams))

I think you have a wonderful point and I’ll like to explore that just a bit. I’m actually going to use Checks remarks to illustrate. I’m sure you won’t mind ((Check))…

“””Men have done this since the beginning of time. Sex does not necessarily equal love for us and we are quite capable of separating the physical from the emotional. If this weren't true the "oldest profession" would never come about.”””

I think it’s safe to say that “WE” as human’s are capable of many things including separating physical acts from our emotions. The question becomes is it healthy and will it promote future health, furthermore will we become detached from those emotions in the future. After all people are capable of cold blooded murder without emotion. But I think a better model exists within the United States Military, which I was a part of. Because of hard earned lessons of war, new training techniques were implemented to “de-sensitize” American fighters. Instead of shooting at bulls eye targets, they began shooting at silhouettes of their enemy. Training became so realistic that shooting and be emotionless towards a person became second nature. Which sadly, to a point it had to be. This was met with much perceived success and major law enforcement agencies around this country adopted many of these principles. Well through the headlines with atrocities of combat and police brutality it also became apparent that one can become TOO de-sensitized to the point of truly being void of emotion. Thus the call through our military and police forces for “sensitivity” training. This certainly isn’t the only example of how fondling the brain to the point that it lacks emotion has hurt humanity. There are school shooting that fall along these same lines and many other acts…..

So when Check says that it’s a delicate situation. I believe he’s very correct and without knowing it someone in this type of situation may place their self in a mind set where without serious mental intervention that they may not experience the wonderful fruits of a truly close intimate relationship.

To sorta answer nams... And this is not really off-topic, because it could pertain to BigGuy's lady-friend, although it could also go on the FWB thread.

IMO, women can participate in a FWB R, and therefore separate the sex from the the "love" thing for a variety of reasons. Either it's a more healthy thing where she is just at that point in her life - either just doesn't *want* to invest herself emotionally in a romantic R - or can't (because she's been hurt, just ended a R, etc)... and she just wants the enjoyment of SF from someone she knows and trusts .... orrrrrr.... she has deeper issues of trust and emotional involvement that come from the past (childhood, abusive spouse, etc) that allow her to separate sex from love and actually prevent her from connecting the 2.

So determining which of these reasons she has HAD a FWB might be important for the future of your R.

Not a problem LH.....

"The question becomes is it healthy and will it promote future health, furthermore will we become detached from those emotions in the future."

I could not agree more, which is why I have never engage in casual sex or sought the comforts of a prostitute. The trick is not to detach oneself from emotions, but to completely understand them and control them. Too many people fail to do this and become slaves to their emotions, which leads to a chaotic life.

I cannot reiterate enough, that an FWBR is definitely not for everyone. I would caution anyone considering such an arragement to be brutally honest with him/herself before jumping.

It is important to note that a FWBR is not one devoid of emotional attachment. In my particular case, there is a strong emotiona attachment and even committment - just not to the extend of marriage.

TBG, not thinking narrowly, just trying to understand. I'm goin to accept that you are doing what you feel is best for you. About this statement in a response to mine:

"You know what? That's life. Relationships fail. "

No, no, no, no, no, TBG. This is not right. You never enter a relationship with this mindset. One never risks hurting another. That's why I preach so much about self knowledge and careful, slow approaches.

Now, think about how your statement is contrary to MB principles but replacing one word:

You know what? That's life. Marriages fail.
(how many times have we heard people uses this line?)

Yeah, you are MBing to prevent that. The best chance of success is to start MBing and adopting it's philosophy right from the start.

BigGuy,

Like Check, I am a little surprised at this rapid turnaround in your approach. You said that you are working on your relationship skills, which is why you started with multiple dating instead of anything exclusive.

Realistically, it's probably a matter of many months to develop relationship skills, not a few weeks, which is how long I believe you have been at this multiple dating thing.

Moreover, just two weeks ago you said this about who I understand to be the same woman:


So this woman is dishonest, but you are now in an exclusive relationship with her? Simply because you like her and she gave you an ultimatum?

And if you were upset about her wanting an exclusive relationship while professing to be multiple dating, how do you explain the fact that you are now doing the exact same thing?

And not only that, you are already wondering if it's OK for her to have overnight visits to an ex sex-partner?

And when the kids should be brought into the picture?

Pretty quick changes here, BigGuy, which would be a red flag to me.

I am not hammering on you, I just have the benefit of observing things from the outside (i.e. I am not invested), and it sure seems like a very quick change of course. I am just trying to look out for you, BigGuy <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

Wassup?

AGG

Ha! AGG, of all people I thought you would be the happiest that I'm singular dating now! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

No, this is not the same woman. I ended the relationship you are referring to... two weeks ago.




I didn't ask the question because I am looking for advice. I searched the archives and didn't see a thread like this one and being a good forum member thought it was important and pertinent enough to discuss.

I am always intensely curious for other points of view even if I have formed my own opinions. This is one of those cases. Believe you me, when it comes to my kids, I err on the side of caution.




:sniff: :sniff: I love you too man!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/teary.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hehe <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />...

So I am still a bit concerned for you that you are less than 2 months out of a serious relationship, and with just a few weeks of multiple dating under your belt you feel that you are ready for exclusivity again.

Maybe you are, I won't say that you're not... Just keep an eye out for falling right back into the old patterns that you say you have a habit of falling into <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

Keep us posted,

AGG

I have to agree with the rest that it seems awfully sudden for you to have this "change of heart" or "change of plans" might be better wording.

One question I have is why is she now wanting to go visit this other guy? Is this the same guy she just let go right before you came into the "exclusive" picture? Seems like she might be testing your boundaries to see how much you'll put up with.

Screams red flag to me but that's just my humble opinion.

You're a grown man who's gonna do what he wants...Good Luck

Ronda

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

I suspect there is a very important message in those words... Your task is to find out what that message is <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

AGG

Update to this situation...

In between Breakup #3 and Breakup #4, M and I agreed to allow each other to date other people. Of course, she went back to dating her friend. I have to say that it really is a relationship that will never progress past a dating relationship. I mean, he's been with her for 5 years and has never introduced her or her kids to his parents.

I on the other hand drug my feet and didn't really make an effort to meet other women.

To be fair, we were still spending a lot of time together every day either on the phone or being together. It was very easy for her to resume dating her friend as they spend a total of about 15 minutes a week on the phone, plus what ever time they spend together. Whereas meeting someone completely new takes time. I needed Breakup #4 to motivate me to make the effort.

It's an easy relationship for her. She doesn't really have to work at it. For where she's at in her life, I would say that she doesn't really want much more.

Harley many times advocates breaking off all contact with someone that is attractive to you or was your "affair" partner - read sexual partner.

[quote}]First, you should avoid seeing the man at work altogether, and it will mean quitting your job. You are already addicted to him, and your emotions will control your decisions whenever you see each other. It won't be long before you have thought through a justification of your behavior, and then there will be no stopping you. You will lose all perspective and ruin your marriage and family, to say nothing about intentionally hurting a man who cares a great deal for you. Six months after your affair has started you will be so up to your eyeballs in guilt you will be contemplating suicide. Get this man out of your life at all costs!

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5024_qa.html

[/quote]

V.

Nor is he her child ward or slave.

He can say, as I would say, "I feel very uncomfortable with your judgement in this matter, and have chosen to discontinue my relationship with you."

I would not have a relationship with a woman who had previously been promiscuous - by which I mean that she had multiple intimate relationships outside of marriage. A history of indulging in FWB would be a disqualifing factor for me.

-AD

FWB is full of danger. It only makes sense if neither person has an intimate relationship with another person. Even then, how do you date Jane and then visit friend Sue and have sex with Sue? What does Jane think of that?