I’d like to do some self-administered pre-pop the question counseling. I’ve been dating M for 8 months, and we’re becoming more … permanent. He’s considering buying another vacation property and he said my regular ski spot “would probably change if I had a place in X,” X being where he wants to buy. Boy, did he give me a look when I said I wasn’t the one to whom the place would belong.

So, before it gets too much further, I thought I’d start asking questions. We’ve covered the pre-nupt question and have a good understanding: he doesn’t want one, and I have little to protect at this point.

I think child-rearing will have to come up. I think it would depend on M and the girls to large extent. However, discipline, does and don’ts need to be covered. I also think it’s unrealistic to think M would continue to defer to me in all matters regarding the girls if we’re all in the same house.

Those of you who are remarried, how do you address it? Does anyone have ideas?

What about the girls and money. While I know M would see his money as his wife’s, I don’t know how much he’d consider spending on his wife’s children. And would he begrudge his wife spending a large portion of her income on the children?

Chores, projects and undivided attention. This would have to be covered.

You know how people agree to mediation or arbitration when they sign contracts? I’m wondering if we should have an agreement on going to counseling, and what kind of counseling.

What am I missing? I must be missing a lot.

Oh, yeah. I should probably bring up POJA.

GG,

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

So has this been addressed to your satisfaction?

Hey, DV.

It hasn’t quite. But, I’m getting closer. The man volunteered for two family events over 4th of July weekend. I wasn’t even inviting him. LOL. I think he doesn’t like my dad.

I also don’t think M had any idea how angry, upset, hurt, and scared I felt. He does now, and that helps. He’s agreed to be more direct about what he wants or doesn’t want. I expect that will help.

And, I don’t and wouldn’t expect a proposal for months upon months.

However, if some of these become “issues,” I want to know and identify them before the proposal stage.

GG,

I am afraid I am in DW's wet blanket camp today... You just posted a week or so ago about all the concerns you had with M, and how your emotions have shut down. And here you are talking about "permanence".

And yet, your post shows that you have some major questions not only unresolved, but not even addressed.

Things such as child rearing, financial considerations, chores, projects, etc, are the very things that make or break a second marriage. And it sounds like you haven't discussed them yet, right? How do you know that his views on those things will be anywhere similar to yours? More than likely, they won't, since he has no kids. The dreaded NMNK type, hehe <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

One thing that I found useful (and eye opening) with G was to go through a book that has a bunch of compatibility questions, regarding how you would handle finances, kids, retirement, relatives, etc etc... There are many of those books out there, and it is a good (and safe) way to bring these questions up for discussion. It also will let you see how well you can POJA and listen to each other when you come across things that you do not see eye to eye on.

One of the dangers of dating is spending time together enjoying each other's company but avoiding the tough questions and real compatibility evaluation. Then, one day you look back and say "wow, we've been dating for a year, it must be 'real'" - but if you've avoided addressing the real issues, then time has very little to do with it.

AGG

Also, not to get too detailed here, but I am not sure what this comment means in real terms - you DO have two kids to look out for, don't you? It seems like you are counting on him for financial security (or did I misunderstand?), in which case it seems like you would want to make sure that you and your kids' financial wellbeing is addressed adequately.

I know that divorce laws are different from state to state, but it seems to me that you might want to be sure that you would be protected if worse came to worst. Maybe I am just too negative, I dunno <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />.

AGG

Greengables,

I have one piece of advice for you.

S L O W D O W N

If you've been dating for 8 months, it's not time to be thinking about marriage yet. I know he hasn't asked and you're just trying to look out for the future. But the fact that you're considering these things indicates to me that you're sort of programming this relationship for marriage. And by doing that, I'm afraid that you'll rush it.

I'm going to say something I think many people here won't agree with: When children are involved, courtship should last years. Plural years. Anything less than that, and you risk your children's resentment. I'm sure you feel right now that your kids really like him, so how could they possibly become resentful. But the risk is high, nonetheless. Liking Mommy's boyfriend is a far cry from welcoming an outsider into the family unit and culture.

Greengables, we all know that second marriages have a greater chance of failure than first marriages. I don't have any statistics at hand, but I think it's a safe bet that second marriages with step-children have an even greater chance of failure. Please think about that very carefully. The mere existence of children from your first marriage will pose a risk to your second marriage. Now, obviously, you can't get rid of those precious children. So what do you do? Take extraordinary steps to mitigate your risk. How do you do that? Go V E R Y S L O W L Y. Give your family lots of time to build and rebuild and rebuild again their trust in your guy and their sense of his role in your family.

Ladies and Gentlemen, I am not planning on getting married any time soon.

We have talked a lot about finances, though not as specific as a budget.

The whole comment about the pre-nupt and the amount I might spend on the children is that M makes dramatically more than me. So, if we put it all into a pot, I’d end up ahead financially. However, I’d feel uncomfortable with this. I’d also be wary of using “his” money on my children. I’m not used to being “supported.” That’s why I waited until we’d dated six months before I’d agree to go on any of his travels. I couldn’t afford to pay for myself, but I wouldn’t let him pay for me until I was certain I really cared him. I think this is a novel approach for him. LOL.

M knows I need to protect my children and that my life insurance would go to a trust for them even if I did get married. I’d probably try to set up a living trust for at least some of the assets I bring to the marriage.

When I said I didn’t have much to protect now, I was referring to the change in my situation recently. The outlook for my family’s business has changed over the last 15 years, as well as its structure. I don’t have to protect the family business in the event of my divorce.

We’ve discussed physical location, and we’re good on that. We’ve discussed how we want to live our lives, and they are pretty compatible. I’ve seen the inside of his house and it’s neat and tidy without showing signs of obsessive-compulsive disorder. The outside… Well there’s a big compatibility issue. We’re both gardeners, but gardeners with dramatically different approaches. M’s approach is to plant lots of stuff so it looks nice right now. I plant based on what it will look like in a few years and when the shrubs are full size. We’re brainstorming options to handle this dilemma. And trust me, it would be an issue.

The children… We’ve talked about it. M doesn’t think it will be a problem. He thinks my children are great. I still think it needs more time. M did tell the girls to do as their mother said and get their showers when I took the babysitter home one night. They looked at him, but followed his direction.

He hasn’t asked me to marry him, nor have we talked about it directly. We’re much more in the feeling out stage. But after 8 months, we’re getting closer and closer to a real commitment.

I want to identify all the issues, and address them BEFORE we start talking about marriage. Enough more will come up then, I’m sure.

Who knows? There’s a chance it may not work out. It could be that I still look upon marriage with deep suspicion. The whole institution lends itself to being a trick and a trap. So, if M did proposed in 8 or 9 months, and I did except, we’d probably end up getting married 12 months after that… So, that puts the hypothetical marriage 20 months from now.

Curious, my girls like him. HOWEVER, they’re only just now getting to know him. They did not meet him until March. Since then, they’ve seen him about 5 times total. I’m taking a wait and see approach there.

I’m not sure though that we need to wait years until we know if marriage is a possibility. After 8 months, you can usually weed out the obvious rejects. After 8 months, I think you should start really testing compatibility and the viability of making the relationship permanent. Otherwise, you are just casually dating with no long-term vision.

Nothing is wrong with casual dating. That was my plan, but then I met M. At this point, casual dating without thought to the future would be difficult. If I didn’t think there was a future with this man, I wouldn’t allow him to spend time with my daughters. And I can’t know there’s a future until the girls have spent a lot of time with him, and I’ve discussed what remarriage would mean for them.

Curious, Nowhere can I find what your situation is and why you're here. What's your story? Are you divorced? Remarried? Still on the first marriage? Do you have children?

Has M brought up marriage?

You and I are close to the same time frame, I've been with L 10 months now. I've been the one to bring it up to let him know that is my direction and intent. And he's told me he doesn't EVER see himself as married. (bit of a difference, wouldn't ya say??)

However, we both agree its the easiest, happiest, best relationship we've ever been in.

But AGG just nailed one out of the park for me -- its because we're not dealing with ANY of the issues we would have to, to make this situation permanent. We're just doing all the fun good stuff.

I made the choice a few months ago to "postpone" any decisions I need to make about our relationship until September. And I put L on notice, that we'd pick up the topic again after the big ONE YEAR mark -- either we agree on the general direction and intent of this relationship, or we part ways.

It sounds like a lot less fun when you need to talk about finances, discipline, and chore division.
NO WONDER I'M STILL IN STAGE 1 INFATUATION LOVE!!!

Thanks AGG, you gave me a big old LIGHTBULB moment!

Fair enough, and sounds like a good approach. Like I said, there are lots of good books out there that address all the common problems in a Q&A format, I suggest picking one up and jumping in <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

AGG

Sure, glad to be of service <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />:).

Seriously, though, I think that a lot of people fall into that trap - simply "date" for months or years, without ever going beyond the touchy feelie stuff of dating <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />, and then make the [censored]-u-mption that they really know the person due to the time spent together. How often do we see a poster saying "we've been together for 10 years, married 1, and now everything seems to be falling apart"? All the time!

I know that wiftty will accuse me of spouse shopping, but I think that if marriage is in a person's mind, then it's important to not just "date", but to also try to assess compatibility, by asking the tough questions and addressing the difficult issues. It's easy to ignore that, but it's not wise.

Anyway, glad you see how much easier it is to date than to spouse shop <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

AGG

And I wasn't even spouse shopping!!! I remember telling numerous friends to put me in a straight jacket and tie me in a chair if I ever considered marrying again.

Lexxy, M and I have talked about it in a round about way. M senses I'd run helter skelter if he actually said marraige. So we talk in euphonisms. However, he's made it clear that I'm different from others, and he's serious about me.

I'm happy to see he considers possible issues as well as I do, although he's not easily alarmed as I am. That's to be expected since he's never been unhappily married before. Me, I just try not to see red flags when there are green ones. LOL.

I think I will get some books, AGG. It's a really good idea.

And for what it's worth, M hasn't even said he, you know. That big four letter word. I don't think he'd say that until he knew 100% that he was going to propose.

On the other hand, he's patient and understanding when I have sudden panics. He insists on quietly talking though items, but yet he still give me time to process information. (that's important to me. I need processing time. It's weird because it's not even thinking time, is sub-conscious time.) Well, I could say all kinds of nice things about him, but I'll spare you all.

AGG said:
As Lexxy already said, this was a "lightbulb moment" for me, too. Although I've been separated for 5 1/2 years, my Dv was only final 2 months ago, and I just started dating again. I'm far from ready to start the "shopping" process of asking the tough questions, but I can already see AGG's point. I did date one guy prior to my divorce. He was a friend and it felt safe because I was still M'd and I wasn't serious about him as a longterm partner, nor was he about me, and we were both still healing from broken hearts.

Now I'm ready to move on, but I'm confronting the issues left behind by my failed M - lack of trust, damaged self-esteem, fear of failure... I'm surprising myself with the intensity of these feelings.

Hey GG, hope all's well. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

So let's see if I understand this correctly. You're just thinking in case...what if the M question comes up...trying to figure out the important stuff to consider...never too early to think about the hard stuff...tee hee. You're sweet & smart & scared of not getting this right. (((GG))) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I don't think I can add anything since you & others have covered a lot of ground. I love the book idea. A work book that asks the really hard question that you do together. This takes the pressure off both of you for having to come with the issues yourselves & working on it together gives you the opportunity to work as a team. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

I smell love. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Thanks, Nams.

To all, I'd come to the same conclusion as AGG. Dating is how I married my first husband. LOL.

So, when M asked me about "next steps" for our relationship, I did suggest we spend more day-to-day time, including doing some chores together. For instance, I'd help him clean his gutters, then he could help me clean mine.

I like the workbook idea, but I'll have to see how M likes it. Here at MB, we tend to like books and workbooks. That's one reason why we're drawn to this site. I'll have to position this correctly.

Anyway thanks for all the responses.

Agg,
Can you suggest some of those books? My BF and I have been dating a year, and I jsut realized reading this post that we, too, have pretty much just been doing the "fun stuff". Maybe we need to look deeper, and I'd love some suggestions as to how to do that.

cm

GG,
I see you've ducked for cover under a new thread name.

I remember asking those question to my X when we were dating. Long drives to go skiing worked well for that.
What I didn't know was that he has a tendency to lie, rather than reveal. So when I look back, it was role-playing, as in answering as the person expected to hear.

So, how do you drill down more GG? I know I spoke to my X about budgets, future planning etc. I see now how many lies there were. Questions and answers are one thing - credibility is another issue.

Here are just a few that I read, I'm sure there are many others. Like newly says, it's also important to be able to differentiate between someone giving you an answer they think you want to hear and someone being truthful with you and themselves. So hopefully their answers will be supported by the observed actions.

But in the end, I think having these discussions will help reduce the surprises of people getting married and then saying "wow, I never knew you felt that way about this topic!".

Will Our Love Last?

Getting to Know You: 365 Questions

Lies at the Altar

AGG

I read “Will Our Love Last?” and really enjoyed it. I read it while I was still married, and it came as no surprise that B and I are not aligned when it comes to modus vivendi, or our world views. We were incredibly incompatible, and probably were from the start. It really explained why we had trouble so early in our relationship.

I think that’s also why I want to dig really deep at this point.

I’m going to broach the subject of compatibility with M next weekend when we have some time together. He is less comfortable with using books and experts’ nomograms to analyze our relationship. However, if I put it in context of “Let’s identify potential challenges” he may react better.

In part, I’m to blame since I do not keep a consistent pace in the relationship. I tend to take a jump forward, and then freeze until I get used to that new level. So, M tends to worry that I’ll take flight if a Chinese Zodiac place mat or Cosmo quiz tells me we’re unsuited to each other.

How are you all planning to broach this subject, Lexxy, Let’s Try, and Country Mama?

And, Newly, I did not duck for cover! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I simply thought the new one is a more appropriate title. Is work still running you off your legs? The girls are planning to go skiing at GP this winter. I really hope M doesn’t buy a place in the Ps. I don’t really want to ski there, and he won’t understand if I want to go to GP instead. On the other hand, I’m not sure how welcome I am at GP anymore.

I was planning to avoid it....hehehehe.

Well, seriously I am planning to delay it at least a couple more months. Then depending on how L responds to my temperature check -- we'll either start talking or we'll stop.

He's not much of a future-planner, so it wouldn't surprise me to hear that he hasn't thought about it much (still).
So I predict the tough choices will still be up to me.

My work crunch is almost over, and I leave on vacation next Friday, so whatever isn't done - won't get done.
Now, I'm also ripping down the 1970's paneling in my house, and hoped to have the painter in while on vacation, and that's not working too well either. No drywall in some areas, and a neighbor's child got a nail in the foot yesterday while visiting.

I bought a pass to GP for next year, and really enjoyed my time away (all by myself) there staying at the 3 bear inn. I met great people every trip. The girls will go with me next year. I have to try hard to keep up with them.

I have so little to add to the dating posts. I can't even imagine where'd I'd find the time to date, life just seems so busy. Everything else is a priority for me right now. I can't wait to experience the calm at home when the paneling is all down, and the room is painted. Then I can complete my mid-century modern LR/DR. Picture a lime green sofa.
In between I'm trying to salvage the blueberry bushes. I think I lost the grape vines from lack of attention. And I have poison ivy.

Take Care.

GG,
I have absolutley no idea how to broach the subject. We are not discussing marriage yet. But, like lots of long time dating couples, those "little comments" do come out. You know, like "next year we'll. . ." or when he's helping me fix up my place adn I say, "where do you want this?" like it's his place.

I'm too scared at this time to think more long term, and there are some major differences in parenting that we are currently addressing, which need to be resolved before anything can ever happen. We are doing well with that, because of course I'm right and he's learning from me! LOL.

I guess I'll get a couple of the books and read through them and maybe I'll get some ieas of how to bring up the topic.

cm

This is all very intriguing to me. I've given these themes a good deal of thought.

Let me first suggest a book, from the author of "I Kissed Dating Goodby" - he later wrote "Say Hello to Courtship!" Joshua Harris is the author. Thought provoking!

I appreciated & agreed with what AGG said about dating without direction. Easy to do. But ignores reality & falls short of reaching important goals.

I will add a couple of comments:

1) "Drift-a-long" dating is very common. It is also incompatible with securing healthy long-term commitment in a marriage.

2) Too many of us have secumbed to the trappings of marriage, but in a non-committed drift-a-long dating deal. We are often (not accusing anyone here) physically far too intimate for the true stage of commitment we find ourselves capable of; which in turn wreaks utter confusion of mind & spirit. Put bluntly - not too many carts in front of horses move forward with any sort of efficiency & ultimate success. Along with intimacy, we behave like marrieds too quickly, in matters of finance, discipline of step kids, exclusivity expectations, expectations of time spent together, etc.

3) Far too many men are functioning as serial drift-a-long daters rather than taking up their God-given role of relationship leaders. Many men have become passive towards leading a relationship in a pre-determined & mutually agreed (POJA) upon path towards a successful conclusion. Mind you, "success" in a pre-marriage relationship is certainly valid IF you discover you are not ultimately compatible & have no business being married. To me THAT is equally successful as reaching engagement and then marriage.

What do you folks think?

Regards,

I don't know. I've been looking into books and I found one that I'm going to order. It was written by a psychoanalysist and includes theory, data and case studies. From what I can tell, his premise is that romantic love, which he defines very broadly, is what gives people the feeling life is worth living and full of purpose. Because RL is defined broadly it can include lots of kinds of love, but it doesn't not include what I call caring love, the act of taking care of someone or nurturing someone.

Anyway, this psychoanalysist theory is that romantic love is by its very nature unstable and changable. We humans want committment in order to ensure we keep the romantic love feeling, but the structure of committment clashes with the conditions necessary for romantic love to flourish.

Now, I haven't read the book yet, so I can't comment on it.

However, it's an interesting premise and worth investigating, even if at the end I end up disagreeing.

Personally, as I get further away from the drama of my marriage and as this new relationship continues to develop, I continue to question Dr. Harley's approach. I still think the love bank concept, along with LB and ENs, is a viable paradigm. But, I really wonder about plan A as an approach when there is no infidelty. Dr. H. has said Plan A won't work in cases of mental illness or addiction. However, there are a lot of spouses out there who don't respond to Plan A at all, yet fall short of mental illness.

So, I think there are often issues in marriages that go beyond the simple EN and LB model. A more complex paradigm may be needed for romantic love.

What often is not taken into account in all of this is the most universal truth of all....That Human Beings are born essentially and basically SELFISH!

That in turn requires that we turn to an entirely different paradigm to find true love, including the romantic portion of true LOVE.

Well, define "true love."

I don't know what that looks like any more. I sort of think all loves are "true" loves. If pressed, I'd even have to agree that affair loves are true loves, although they are also destructive and ignoble.

So, define "true love" and then, let me know what you think a new paradigm to find true love that takes into account human selfishness would look like.

BTW, glad you're chiming in. I find your posts thought provoking when it comes to this theoretical stuff. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

For starters: What is "UN" true love? Let's define that. I'll give it a start, and let you take it from there.

By the way, if I don't answer for a bit, it's just because I've got to fly a bunch starting about 3 PM today until Sunday night. So not ignoring, just can't get to I'net from the cockpit at 41,000 feet!!! hehehe

Just the visual EVERYONE needed huh?? "This is your captain speaking from the flight deck. Listen, I'm logged onto MarriageBuilders dot com, and am trying to help define True Love....ya'll set back & enjoy our flight to Denver today!!"

OK...UN true love for me includes this: It's FALSE love. Whenever something is false, by definition, it includes hiding, pretending, & lack of truth-telling by one to another. Boiled on down; when lies are present, there cannot be TRUE love. Witholding important information is false. Not telling the truth of feelings is false. So for me, it is impossible to have TRUE love in the context of an affair. It is an illusion propped up by many, many falsehoods, both between the affair parties & clearly to those surrounding their lives.

Or put very succinctly: "Love does not flourish in deceit...Love only flourishes in the truth".

Your turn to define......

good thoughts high flight... my definition would be my marriage... that was UN true love. sad but true. it was based purely on physical attraction and nothing else. yes, it is false. it is NOT something I believe you can build a relationship or marriage on at all. the only good that i got from it was my twins. they are awesome and came from a night right after our wedding when i believe we really thought we did love eachother. but nothing but sadness comes from untrue love. it just built resentments, and anger, and insanity. it brought about affairs on his part.

i don't ever want that again. i long, i truly deeply long to feel what true deep passionate love is. i want to love someone so much the emotions make me cry! hope i am not asking for too much or setting myself up for disappointment... mlhb