Good afternoon, MB friends!

I've been aware of MB for a couple of years, have read all of the concepts, read HNHN, and have spent a bit of time reading the boards.

I'm an only parent to 3 kids; 21, 20, and 17. Their mom died 10 years ago. With the exception of two ill-advised, short term marriages directly following their mothers death, I've raised them on my own.

I became involved with a woman about three months ago. We are in love. But there are a couple of things that have been bothering me. Her best friend is involved with two different married men. My SO sees no issues with her friends behavior. My deceased former wife was a serial adulterer, so I, obviously, have issues with that.

She, my SO, was involved in an adulteress affair herself while married to he forme husband.

I do love her, and she loves me. Please help. I really want to become a buyer. But not if past behavior would indicate future behavior. BTW, we've both filled out the questionnaires and are, mostly, meeting each others EN's.

Thank you!

Tell us more about your two ill-advised, short term marriages. That could be very helpful for us to give you crucial input on your approach to romance(s).

Really?? She doesn't have a problem with her friends actions and she was, herself, an adulteress?????

RRRRRRUUUUUNNNNNNN!!!!!! As fast as u can.....

Please set higher standards for yourself.

You are worth MUCH more!

Welcome to MB.

Does your GF see the error of her ways when she had the affair with a married man?

If you search my name you'll see that I'm not very qualified to give advice, but........
I can also tell you that my experience with my XH was that he was a serial cheater. He easily explained away what he did and why he did it, but he did again and again and again.
I remember him telling me before we married what ended the one year relationship with the last woman he dated before we met. She found out that he had allowed one of his married uncles to use the spare bedroom in his house to have sex with another woman.
He apparently didn't see anything wrong with it. The girlfriend did and wisely ended it. She spared herself A LOT of grief.
You know, I think you have to decide what you are willing to accept in your life. Affairs and turning a blind eye to affairs is a boundary issue. What lines are acceptable to cross?
I have a very jaded opinion about people who cheat. My personal experience has been "once a cheater, always a cheater." Is that true in all cases - no. But, you're only 3 months into this relationship and you are seeing enough red flags for you to post on a board like this. You need to do some soulsearching and figure out if you want to enter marriage number 4 with a woman that doesn't take vows seriously.

I disagree wholeheartedly L2S. It's good to see you sharing your experience and understanding of MB principles with others. You will benefit from doing this as much as those who are fortunate enough to hear your sentiments.

We all have a different view of those who commit adultery. MB looks at fidelity in an entirely different way than the general public.

opt

Thank you for all of your responses.

I waited 4 years after my kids mom died to remarry. We had 5 kids in the house living with us and the pressures of a blended family were too much for my wife to handle. She tried to kill herself on two different occassions. We decided too divorce at that time.

I then waited two years and married again. This was a huge mistake. My picker was off by a long shot on that one. I take responsibility, though. She was diagnosed as BPD. I allowed myself to be taken in with her looks and great sex. When she hit my son in the head with a lamp, I asked her to leave.

My SO and her EH were involved with each other while both were married to other people. I know, huge red flags!! According to her, he was physically abusive towards her during their marriage. She had a long term affair with a man several years older than she. She said he was able to fill her love tank in ways her husband couldn't. I know...another red flag.

She was honest with me about all of these issues when we first met, caveat emptor, I guess.

She understands that what she did was wrong, and says she won't do it again. I'm sure you've heard that story before.

I'm still bugged our over her best friends affair. She doesn't feel she should judge her friend for that behavior. I do, though.

I know birds of a feather flock together.

Thanks again in advance and Merry Christmas!

Yup, gotta watch out for those BPD people. They are absolutely amazing one second, then the next they cause pain that is difficult to describe.

In your current situation, it's pretty obvious to me that you need to end the relationship. Here is why:

1. She obviously doesn't feel like what she did is wrong because if she did she would be working very diligently to persuade her friend to stop being a home wrecker (x2).

2. She obviously doesn't know what proper boundaries are because she has had an affair. We know for certain that she hasn't addresses this because of reason number 1.

3. Having been married 3 times and once to a serial adulterer, I would bet that your affair meter is pretty sensitive. I believe you are posting here because it's pointing to the red and you are conflicted because you love this girl. I understand your conflict, but I also understand why your affair meter is sounding the alarm. Trust it, it's not lying.

4. If you marry there will almost certainly be this splinter in the back of your mind always causing you to be suspicious of your wife and I suspect you both will have trust issues when you don't agree on something that has caused you so much pain in the past. Even if she doesn't cheat on you, it doesn't sound like a really great marriage. Putting this in MB terms, would she be willing to implement the POJA? If so, do you feel comfortable with her maintaining a best friend relationship with someone who is cheating with 2 married dudes? If no, would be be willing to ditch her friend for the marriage? If not, then she isn't marriage material according to the MB program.

5. Do you want to go through another poor marriage or even a divorce? I doubt it, but the only way to ensure success is to make very high standards for yourself and not be willing to bend on them at all. Make sure your relationships are with people that are truly buyers, not renters. Your SO isn't a buyer, if she was then she would act like one.

One way to sort this out is to write a list of what you want/need in a marriage relationship and don't date people that aren't qualified after you have been able to determine their stance on your lists items.

Hope that helps,
ak

Good afternoon and Merry Christmas, MB friends!

Out of the five responses, so far, I've received three that tell me to run, and run fast. Well, I'm pretty sure I've done just that.

My affair meter is off the charts, and have been for quite some time. With her, it's been off the charts from, almost, the get go.

To AK's points, I have to agree on all of the points you made. Although I don't find myself to be too jealous, there have been several things, with her, that have made me question whether or not I can trust her.

She's maintained several friendships with men she's gone out with in the past. I'm the kind of guy that when a relationship is over, it's over. She gets texts on a regular basis from former boyfriends, and deletes them immediately after reading them.

I read to her, yesterday, the POJA directly from the MB website. I told her that I really wanted to implement this in our relationship, if we both agreed that our R was going anywhere. She stated that we pretty much agreed on everything. She also said to just enjoy each other without getting too serious or heavy with those types of things. I must admit my heart sank a bit when she said that. Perhaps it was a test on my part to determine if she was a buyer, or merely a renter. As some have already stated, she's a renter; no doubt about it.

We had Christmas at her home this morning, with my children joining us. My 20 year old D, wasn't in the best of moods. She has a tendency to be a bit of a tough case when she's hungry, and this morning, she was hungry. I shouldn't sugarcoat her behavior, it wasn't good. (my daughter) She wasn't happy with her gifts as she thought my SO had picked out everything for her; which isn't the case. At any rate, it wasn't a great celebration.

We then went to Christmas lunch at a local restaurant. That, too, did not go well. We ordered our food and my D was still in a mood. I told her to settle down and enjoy our Christmas celebration. She started snipping at me and I had to get stern with her. I didn't lose my temper or get loud, just told her to settle down. She then, my D, said a few words under her breath and kind of blew up the entire lunch. We decided to get our lunch to go, and I payed the bill.

On the drive back to my SO's house, she stated that my children were never again welcome at her home. I told my SO that my kids would stop by and get their Christmas gifts and go back to my house. She would have nothing of it. She told me that if they showed back up at her house, she would call the police. I then called my daughter and told her to head to my home and I would pick up their stuff and bring it home with me. My SO then told me to make a decision, her or my kids. Granted, my daughter acted out and was an embarrassment, but nothing to the level of asking me to choose between her and my children. Needless to say, I won't have to worry if she's being true to me and our relationship any longer.

I don't want to go through another failed relationship or marriage, and I believe that may have been the case with her. Although my heart is a bit heavy, at this point, I'm also feeling sense of relief that she gave me an ultimatum. I really wanted to be a buyer. But, I only want to be a buyer with another committed buyer. It's clear to me that when the going got rough, she was willing to throw me on the scrap heap of life.

The ironic thing is, she made a tough decision very easy for me.

I made a list of things I am looking for in a prospective wife. I made it two years ago. I didn't, however, incorporate any MB principles. I'm going to rewrite my list.

Dad,

She gets texts on a regular basis from former boyfriends, and deletes them immediately after reading them.

Run, you made the right decision, do not under any circumstances allow her to pull you back in.

She told me that if they showed back up at her house, she would call the police.

Drama queen with no sense of compassion for children, RUN! You are saving yourself alot of pain.

Your D many have a good intuition about this OW who appears to be in a constant state of waywardness.

God Bless
Gamma

Thanks, Gamma.

My D can be too much to handle at times, no doubt.

I'm still not too sure why she said she'd call the police, and she did. I showed up over there to pick up some things, and they were there. They even patted me down! Talk about nuts. I'm as clean as a whistle. I'm a successful business owner, no record, and decent guy.

She just texted me to apologize for her actions. I told her I was unwilling to be in a relationship with a renter. I told her I wasn't willing to be a buyer, when she was only willing to rent.

I really wanted to buy. Actually it felt being willing to become a buyer.

I couldn't agree more with Gamma. I think kids (even at 20 - although I don't have much experience with 20 yo's), have a uncanny ability to tell us something's wrong without saying it.

There is a great book I read which illustrates this concept. I can't mention it here as it's not MB although I'm sure David Code, the author, and Dr. Harley would be fast friends if they met. It talks about "attunement" and how we project our anxiety onto our kids...and then how they react to it in non-verbal and other ways.

Dad of 366 (that's a lot of kids, by the way...good for you) . I don't know if you are simplifying the Buyers/Renters/Freeloader philosophy for the sake of argument or illustration. But I was just going to point out that being a renter is appropriate in a dating relationship. Even a freeloader is okay to be and date. This is my understanding after reading the book. I think you were right to try to anticipate your GF's willingness to eventually become a buyer.

Bottom line, for purposes of this thread, I agree with the others that this woman was not the best candidate for marriage. I think you've done the right thing to move on.

I'm curious to see if your daughter continues to have moods to that extent now that you are in a different situation.

opt

After reading all this I have to disagree with those that said run for the his.

Get into a 4wd, petal to the metal, don't stop for lights, stop for nothin'. Once at the hills put it into 4 HI, and get as many hills as you can between you and her as your gas tank will allow.

Birds of a feather flock together. She is still having EA's with old her ex's. Thinks her friends behavior as a serial cheater is ok.

The problem is you only think with yout little head when it comes to her. Your kids use their big head's and see right through her.

Remember that once a woman or man has hit 30 there has to be a reason why she is single.

Being single does not mean they are good marriage material. They can be but all red flags must be checked out.

I hope you break all contact with her. She calls the cops on you and then text you later?

I would Plan B her for life. Glad you didn't marry this woman.

Have you read this?
Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders

You guys are cracking me up! I do have a 4WD vehicle ready to go.

I have read Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders, and I agree with all of the concepts. Although we weren't married, I tried to show her, through my actions, that I was, in fact, a buyer. I believe I was a bit naive to believe I could incorporate those types of actions in a non-marital relationship. The bottom line is that she failed the interview process.

I will Plan B her. I still have a couple of my things at her place, but those are easily replaceable.

My daughter has always been kind of a tough nut to crack. Since the day she was born, she's been tough. The death of her mother has very difficult for her. Granted, she's 20 and needs to be accountable for her actions. Nevertheless, she's a good egg.

Thank you for all you sage advice. I know MB's will continue to be my new favorite website, as I do want to, eventually, become a buyer.

Good morning, again, my MB friends!!

When entering a new relationship, and understanding I won't accept anything less than a high quality, high character woman, when should one start applying MB principles?

I understand MB principles are for married folks, but I certainly wouldn't want to wait until I was married to incorporate them.

Specifically, when is a good time to bring these principles up in conversation? I tend to think they should be brought up in the first few conversations. I wouldn't want to spend considerable time with any woman who wasn't willing to apply MB to a relationship.

Thoughts?

Thanks!

I wouldn't bring this up in the first few conversations! I think you should date without marriage in mind. You seem hell bent on finding another wife.

I think you use the MB knowledge you have to assess a person's ability to meet your emotional needs easily and then go from there. Also refer to your list of traits you desire in a wife. When the person passes the initial screening process, only then would I talk about stuff related to marriage.

I'm not he'll bent on finding another wife. Quite the contrary. I'm merely asking as to the appropriateness of incorporating MB principles in dating.

Thanks for your response.

You can incorporate POJA very early into a relationship. No need to bring up MB, just use it when deciding whether to go and see a movie or walk in the park - simple stuff to get the technique of negotiating embedded into the relationship from the start.

Then comes Radical Honesty - the moment you move from Freeloading to Renter you can start using this with one another. Make it safe for each other to do that. So you might be concerned about how much alcohol she drinks. Radical honesty would allow you to discuss that calmly and respectfully and to then POJA a resolution.

Full on MB would probably wait till you had made a decision to marry, at least for me.

That's what I was looking for, LW! That sounds ver reasonable. Thank you very much!

Here's my view on apply MB's principles:

Live and date using the principles. From the start. Don't lecture, educate, or demand, but demonstrate through your actions.

Always be radically honest from the start, and simply throw out that you expect the same (without going into it being a MB principle). Practice POJA and take the lead in negotiating decisions, but you don't have to call it that.

The rest is easy, but be careful. Living and dating using the principles can be a powerful aphrodesiac and women will quickly fall for you.

Practice undivided attention, intimate conversation, recreational companionship, praise and affirmation. They will naturally flow back to you.

When the relationship becomes serious and two people start considering a future together, that may be a good time to actually read the books and have the discussion of how you want this kind of marriage. But, it will be easy at that point because you two will have already been living the principles from the start.

If you are dating someone who you can tell has trouble with radical honest, POJA, or meeting EN's, then you simply move on. Reading the book isn't going to suddenly change them.

Exactly...when it is time for going out to a movie, ask her what she would like to see. You could tell her you are interested in the new Sly Stallone movie, but what does she think as you want to see something you would both enjoy. She might say that she is not a big fan of action, but how about Twilight? Then you could say that you are not a fan of the series, but how about Argo? So you practice your negotiation skills...you make her feel safe to disagree.

Or she might say that Sly is fine let's see that. Does she complain about it later? If so, you could tell her that truly you want to make agreements that you are both happy with. You don't callit POJA. Then you see how she is when you pick a restaurant. Make sure if she makes a suggestion that you are happy with you let her choose sometimes too.

Also practice openness and honesty. As appropriate, let her know what you are up to and see how she does without seeming stalkery. :-)