First, not sure where to post this, so if I'm in the wrong place, please advise. (Sorry for the long post, but the goal is to be back here with a new attitude and be productive)

Second, I've been here before a few times and have created conflict and disagreement, not my intention, but just didn't turn out well. I've commented about things and opinions that were not appropriate here and scolded accordingly.

I'm back for two reasons. I feel there are some good people here that can help my situation, and second, perhaps I can help others from what I've learned.

In a nutshell, I've been married for over 40 years and went thru an amicable divorce because of a major issue that I had been fighting for several years that was never solved, which was alcohol abuse. Toward the end, we were totally disconnected, and did not react together at all, and I started an affair with a lady that gave me support that eventually lead to a close relationship. There were some red flags with her, but I thought I could conquer them. I also told the wife my intend to find a girlfriend (called the OW), before it started, and she encouraged me. After the divorce and separation I moved in with the OW. The now ex wife was on her own, but we respected each other, did not fight from the day I said we were splitting up and we really trusted each other. We have always had a care for each other as good friends, and after the end, there was no reason for NC or a total shut out. We still communicated, but no social or dating other that how you doing? We did care about each others progress in life. She turned her life around dramatically, and I was very proud of her. The red flags that plagued my relationship with the OW brought if to an end, which we both knew was coming. While we worked on a potential long term relationship, we didn't have the compatibility necessary to do so. However, most of the time, we were quite happy, with some stress that I had a hard time with.

Now, I'm back with the ex wife, after we have both made major changes and are in a "starting over" mode, with a ton of history, mostly good. We have both apologized about our past, and put the past totally behind us with the rule that it will not be mentioned, unless there's some learning benefit from it. The old OW (or ex GF) is totally out of the picture, as is the alcohol abuse.

Some of my last posts met with controversy because I did not understand totally how to end the past, and get our new relationship to a new start.

I'd prefer NOT to dwell on the past, but look forward to the future.
++++++++++

So, we have been cautiously together for about three months. We have set some guidelines on how to make things work. I have read ALL of the infor on the Marriage Builders web site, including the basic concepts, questionnaires, Q&A, and articles. I have decided to read each and every one to my ex wife (should I call her my GF, or what?). She has been very receptive, and it's making a difference. I'm a bit over one third of the way to go.

The first thing we did, before even figuring out if we had a chance was to discuss in detail what our goals were, and how much we really wanted this to work. We set some rules to live by, and some goals from day one. The first thing we did was my reading the book 5 Love Languages to her for starters, and determined what our languages are. (Very similar to Emotional Needs, in the basics here). We spent every morning together, either just some quality time together, and/or the reading of the above.

So, this message is about thoughts to make this work, and we certainly have some different issues than most couples have.
A few MAJOR differences..... We are both retired, income, careers, kids, family, etc. are just not an issue, so we are on the other end of the dating/marriage spectrum. Our only kid is a great kid and has been very supportive for both of us. Second, we have enjoyed many years of great and successful times together, so we really do not need to "start from scratch", however, we are not trying to leave issues uncovered, and we are living together in our house (we both have a financial interest in it, but I gave it to her to live in at the divorce.

Right now, things are going very well, and we have both discovered each others goods and bads for the current situation and have addressed them. We have no arguments or fights (I quit fighting years ago... just don't do it). We have a few disagreement, but have no problem with a solution so far.

Here are some of the issues that we are trying to keep on track.

We are not 100% compatible on all of our emotional needs, but I really believe we are both trying. We also have some different activities that just do not involve the other, and we are continuing them, with caution, no problems so far. We ave a "rule" of always have dinner together, coffee with talk for an hour or two in the morning, and if we totally disagree on something, we put it behind us to go to bed together and cuddle up for the night, and bring it up peacefully the next day.

Some of the things I need to work on....... She has a love language of "service"... me doing things for her, could be anything from cleaning the house, fixing something, a project for her, etc., and I feel that I'm a bit slow on doing some things. One thing I do that she appreciates, is the dishes and clean the kitchen every night. Makes her feel good to get up to a clean kitchen. I have a love language of "intimate touch and sex" which she is working on. When she just isn't in the mood, I feel rejected, but the cuddle gets me through it, and she occasionally wakes me in the middle of the night for some outstanding love making. I've told her to grab me anytime... whenever, and I'll love it, and she does.... adds a lot of "love pellets" to my bank.

There are several other areas to work on.... need some more activities we enjoy together, need to work on some financial goals (but we're very close). We don't argue over money at all... there's enough. We need more forms of quality time together, but we do get plenty.

As for marriage, it could be in the future, and if it meant enough to her, I'd do it in a heartbeat, but right now, there's some HUGE financial reasons to remain single, as least for now, but have no problem with a goal to remarry at some time.

So, against Dr. Harley's advise, we are living together and have a very close relationship as single people, and I don't have a perfect answer to that yet. However, we have lived together, married, for most of our lives, and mostly happily.

Another thing..... all of our close friends, my counselor and our families know all of the above, and all are supportive with a few exceptions, which is ok. I have a few friends (that are really not close friends) that have had an issue with our situation, and have tried to dictate protocol to us, which we chose to ignore. Actually, only two.

We are both happy, productive people, not without problems, which we need to keep in check.

Any comments to keep things along those perspectives are appreciated, and perhaps some day I can reciprocate to someone that I can help.

A crazy question, if you aren't interested in using Marriage Builders, why are you here? You said you use Love Languages for your dating relationship; then why not go there? What is the purpose of coming here if you a) know Dr Harley does not support shack up relationships and b) does not support Love Languages? What is the point?

I read through your overly long post and can't find the question about Marriage Builders. What is your question?

While that it's nice that that's what YOU would prefer, the truth is:

Your other thread (asking how to get over the OW) was shut down and locked because you were cherry picking the program, living together before marriage and keeping in text communication with the OW.

And you return and instead of respecting posters and the moderator's note on the last thread, you try to skim over the same issues and minimize what happened?

Sigh.

Homelover's last thread:
http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2853162&page=7

How is it that you are going to help people when your marriage resulted in divorce and you are STILL not doing what Dr Harley would advise for your situation?

My word.

Homelover, your posts REEK of waywardism (entitled attitude with what kinds of posts you would like to receive, dishonesty about past posting issues on the forum, wanting admiration by "helping" when you don't even understand or use the program).

Your "relationship" with your ex-wife is doomed to fail. You need to completely hit the reset button and start listening to Dr Harley and set aside your own ideas and feelings (which are wayward/rules do not apply to me thinking). The forum is not going to be any help to you unless you do so.

Why have you come to Marriage Builders to post about Love Languages?

Melody,

Thx for the resonse. Love Languages was only mentioned in that was suggested by my counselor as a good start, and there are a lot of similarities in Dr. Harley's emotional needs, which we are going through right now. (and all of the concepts).

Yes, we are interested in the Marriage Builders concept.

Not really.

What have you done about the OW?

If you want your relationship with your ex wife to work, you will move out and stop having sex with her.

You will stop trying to merge MB with Love Languages. It will never work -- the programs are totally different.

You are still cherry-picking the program, just like you were in your last thread. This will never work.

SusieQ,

I hope I haven't made a wrong impression, my goal is to improve myself and my relationships. No, I'll not be able to help anyone in my present situation, but there's no doubt I could in the future. I've helped many people through difficult times in the past and it has worked.

I don't pre tent to be an expert on Dr Harley's concept, but have read just about all of what he has on the web site, and then I read it again, and now I'm reading it to my ex-wife. Believe if or not, we have followed that exact same concept (not even knowing what it was) from the day I got married many years ago, and it worked very well. We never quit loving each other, and never planned to, however, the "in love" with each other was eventually lost, and we are building on that now.

We are very both "goal oriented" and fairly determined to be successful.... in all aspects of life, and that's why we enjoyed such a great time together. And, yes, we've gone through some very serious adversity, several times.... serious sickness, injuries, kid problems, career problems and got through it as best as we could. We never had something that threatened our marriage until alcohol came into the picture. I was determined to solve that, too, but after many years, I failed and when it was eminent that there was not going to be success, the magic of a loving relationship was gone, we were doomed for separation and divorce. I'm not placing blame, I'm trying to be factual and look toward a recovery. The OW came into the picture long after we were done, and I didn't hide it from her.

People change, and we changed.... both of us for the better. At times it's been a very difficult learning experience having never been through this before. I had no clue what this kind of failure could have on us, and at times didn't know what to do.

I have hit the reset button, just like Dr. Harley's preachings say. I am starting over (to a point), but we do have many years of a positive, trusting and loving relationship to learn from, and the opportunity for support from this group, I hope.

Please point out the areas in which I have done otherwise, so I can work on them.

BTW, what should I call my ex wife?

Melody,

Here are some of the areas posted that could use work, and suggestions:

We are not 100% compatible on all of our emotional needs, but I really believe we are both trying. We also have some different activities that just do not involve the other, and we are continuing them, with caution, no problems so far. We ave a "rule" of always have dinner together, coffee with talk for an hour or two in the morning, and if we totally disagree on something, we put it behind us to go to bed together and cuddle up for the night, and bring it up peacefully the next day.

Some of the things I need to work on....... She has a love language of "service"... me doing things for her, could be anything from cleaning the house, fixing something, a project for her, etc., and I feel that I'm a bit slow on doing some things. One thing I do that she appreciates, is the dishes and clean the kitchen every night. Makes her feel good to get up to a clean kitchen. I have a love language of "intimate touch and sex" which she is working on. When she just isn't in the mood, I feel rejected, but the cuddle gets me through it, and she occasionally wakes me in the middle of the night for some outstanding love making. I've told her to grab me anytime... whenever, and I'll love it, and she does.... adds a lot of "love pellets" to my bank.

There are several other areas to work on.... need some more activities we enjoy together, need to work on some financial goals (but we're very close). We don't argue over money at all... there's enough. We need more forms of quality time together, but we do get plenty.

Granted I don't have all the terminology nailed, yet, but if there's confusion in the above, I'd be glad to clarify it. I see that instead of "love language of service", I should have said Emotional needs of Domestic Support..... I'm sure I'll need more correction.

Susie,

Thanks for your comments, and I'm well aware of the past threads and comments, and hopefully will learn from my mistakes.

The last thing said on the previous thread was "This thread is now locked. When you are serious about ending contact with the other woman, and are ready to follow the whole Marriage Builders plan (without cherry picking), let us know."

The OW is totally out of the picture, and I used Dr. Harleys guide to do so. I decided that about the time that thread ended. I am not going to try to cherry pick and make statements contrary to Dr Harley's advise.

Please believe people can change, and for the better. That is one of the major goals.

You're right MB and Love Languages are different, but both can and have helped I'll put the Love Languages on the back burner.

How did you end contact?

You ignored this part of my post.

Ended when I just cut her off totally (and at that time, only contact was an occasional text). Deleted ALL of the text, info, etc.

Are you still living in the same area?

How did you cut her off totally?

Deleting texts is not ending contact. Can she still call you if she wishes?

Prisca,

I didn't mean to ignore it, I just wasn't ready to respond. I know what I want to say, but need to be sure I say it correctly, and wish to re read a few articles to be SURE I don't misunderstand things. Fair enough?

No

We never lived in the same town.... but yes in the same thee county area, which is several million people, she is several towns over, and I just don't go or need to go anywhere near her town.

Did she ever know your:

* Address
* Phone number
* Email address

If so, have you changed those?

What's stopping her?

Not only is this issue (NC and EPs to avoid contact for life) covered in the articles that you say you have read, but this has been covered repeatedly in your previous threads.

Is there a reason that you are being so vague and forcing us to question you repeatedly in order to get BASIC information regarding ending all contact with this OW??

My word.

You told us in the last thread that you two had to text each other in order to avoid running into each other bc you lived in close proximity and frequently went to the same places. You basically said it was unavoidable unless you texted each other.

Can you explain the discrepancy?

I went back and double checked....you said "places" in one post and then you said one place in another post and added it was a big part of your life that you were unwilling to give up.

Did you change your mind?

Still not sure why we have to wrestle this information out of you.

Yes, yes and yes.

And the final answer, yes and/or blocked.

You are being very vague.

<<<<You told us in the last thread that you two had to text each other in order to avoid running into each other bc you lived in close proximity and frequently went to the same places. You basically said it was unavoidable unless you texted each other.

Can you explain the discrepancy?>>>>

SusieQ,

I have nothing to hide. I just decided that I could avoid EVERYWHERE (singular, plural) we went or she went in the past... a non issue for me. My friends and I have other placed to meet. We (OW and I) went to SEVERAL places together, and I really don't miss any one of them. There was one place that was a bit special, but a non issue. I just decided that it was appropriate to just end it, period. I hope I'm not sounding like I'm misleading you at all.... since I left her, we have never seen, spoke, wrote or crossed paths. There were a few texts, which was easy to just cut off. I'm sure she has another agenda and I'm just not interested. There's very little reason at all that she would "pursue me" for any reason. It's clearly over.

I really hope you see that I'm genuine and trying for help, and have answered all questions to the best of my ability and honestly. I mentioned early on that the OW was a non issue and that was the truth. There's just not a lot of detail, because there's just nothing left.

No discrepancy... the above says it all, but let me know if you need more details. We do NOT live in close proximity, but one of the places is fairly close, but certainly avoidable....

<<<<<<Not only is this issue (NC and EPs to avoid contact for life) covered in the articles that you say you have read, but this has been covered repeatedly in your previous threads.

Is there a reason that you are being so vague and forcing us to question you repeatedly in order to get BASIC information regarding ending all contact with this OW?? >>>>>>

Forgive me but I don't know what EPs mean. Yes, I've read the articles, and it's in place... not sure what you're referring to in "covered in your precious threads"......

I'm open, what am I missing?

Let me know about whatever, and I'll explain. Yes, there's a TON of details that have not been posted, but the meat of it has.

So, you moved? That would be the only way I know to change your address.

Blocked isn't good enough. She could easily reach you from another number or email.

Blocked will work. If she called from another phone, it would not be in my data base and not answered. She does not have my business number and has never called me on it. The only email she has or ever responded to, is my personal email address, which only close friends, like her, my SO, kid, and a few friends have. It was easy to change.

The OW (as you call her), is not an issue, nor was she an issue once the divorce was final. She was not the cause of the divorce, nor did she affect it. She was not a topic of argument or fighting. She was also not an issue in me returning to my SO. When I returned to my SO, the OW was discussed, as other things, and we agreed to put those parts of our life behind us, not to be brought up again. The OW has NO effect on our relationship today... zero. My goal was to completely have her out of my mind (to where she didn't bother me in three months and I'm ahead of schedule.

So, the goal today is to improve the situation with the SO, and enjoy life. We are both stubborn enough and goal oriented enough to make it work... but there's no downside in constantly improving the quality, getting good advice from others, and support from good friends and counseling. We are at that point now, hopefully continuing up hill.

Can you offer anything to improve upon that?

This is what you posted on 5-14.
You now post that you have no contact with her.
I asked you before your previous thread was locked, Is this place where you and OW both go to a bar?

Every unknown number will become a trigger in that case. You aren't serious and it is outrageous that you expect your BW to put up with not knowing which calls will get through rahter than simply CHANGING YOUR NUMBER.

Dr H has done this once or twice you know.

Tell me about why Dr H has had to change his phone number.....No, I didn't know that.

No, but why do you ask? And, I really feel it's inappropriate to bring up a thread that was closed. It was closed for a reason, correct?

Question for all.....

We are looking for additional things to add to our do list... things that will help us grow together.

We have some choices, of looking into simply simple times together... a few hours for a dinner, walk, bike ride, etc., and/or focusing more on things that involve a trip somewhere, overnite, a nice town to visit, or activity to participate in or what ever.

Looking for a good balance on what works well.

Of course the simple stuff we will do more often, but will more emphasis on a trip or two, even a few times a month be more meaningful?

Thoughts?

It's not a big deal to you....it was just an effort to forget her

You realise it is NOT an issue to the person who was not betrayed? To the person betrayed it is worse than rape, or losing a child.

When their spouse returns home it is like getting someone back from the dead They are so happy at the chance to end the pain, they will accept any blame for the 'relationship issues' and will even accept shack up offers and being called a 'significant other' - yuk.




What would you call her role in this mess? The Other Significant Other? The woman outside the marriage is the Other Woman. Fact.



Breatakingly casual about what this must have done to your wife.

Would you be so suave if an OM was 'not an issue' for her in leaving you? For him?

I'm certain such a betrayal would still be an issue for you!




No because you are a dreadful risk to any woman. You swap women out like collectible sports cards. You see no value in marriage and have no remorse when you cheat.

It's not an issue to you - and that makes you a dead cert for doing it again unless you are kept sufficiently happy and appeased.

Your poor wife must be terrified of not pleasing you in that set up.

No, but why do you ask? And, I really feel it's inappropriate to bring up a thread that was closed. It was closed for a reason, correct? [/quote]

Nice little attempt at side stepping the question. It was closed because you weren't following the program so it is very appropriate to ask if you are STILL not following the program. I haven't seen any evidence whatsoever that you are here to use this program. I haven;t figured out why you are even here since you are a) not married, b) shacking up and c) have all but jeopardized your dating relationship by keeping your OW hanging around the fringes.

I don't get it.

If you are serious, ask your wife to come by and introduce herself.

Where's the fog horn clip?

Good grief.

Markos,
She has been asked, several times. In fact, I read to her from MB website, as well as print articles and read to her. She is not interested in computer forums, but I'm sure she is more than welcome here.

And, thx for your offer to review other comments you've made to other folks, I have done that and I like your style of making positive comments.

Here we go again.

This issue has been covered in all of your threads. The obvious is pointed out to you, you agree and acknowledge that this was an A and this was an OW and then you come back later, start a new thread and do the same thing, again.

It wasn't closed because we were not allowed to ask you those questions any more! It was closed because you refused to use MB solutions to your problems.

We can still ask you those questions on a new thread. A locked thread is not carte blanche for you to bypass your history.

And by the way, you can't use MB practices in a living together arrangement (that is an oxymoron), so nobody here is going to help you do that.

Just thought I'd pick this up for one more effort...

Does anyone care to offer support, rather than criticize? Overall, there's a lot of knowledge here, and I'm trying to break thru to getting some of it.

I've been called a lier, cheater, unfit for any woman, using inappropriate titles for people (like OW) not following the program and other things. I could defend all of the above, but would rather not argue, but it sure is easy to be provoked.

Am I worth help at all? What would you do if you were in my shoes?

Most (if not all) of you have had serious marital problems, and it certainly takes two to have these problems. If you have been successful (as I'm sure most of you have), can you share what worked for you?

WE have told you. You won't accept it.

Homelover, can you help me out here by summarizing the thread - what parts of the program are people saying you won't follow?

I will try to help anyone who will try to follow the program, time and other constraints permitting, of course.

Markos,

I'm not sure... there have been a LOT of negative comments and lot of misunderstandings. I did change a few things, so I'm really not sure where I stand.

Right now, things are going reasonably well with my SO. Just want to keep them that way.

Why don't you read back through your thread and find out?

I did... read the whole thing from the beginning.

What questions do you have about the program?

What things are you doing to follow the program?

Markos,

Thx for the reply. I have many questions, and will probably continue to have questions.

As for following the program, I have gone over all of the basic concepts, and letters, Q&As, etc. I have sat down with my SO and read to her the whole thing to make sure we were on the same page, which we basically are. Both of us have no issues with any of the concepts.

However, as time goes on, I'm sure we will have issues and questions as a lot of couples do. I'd like to be able to post those issues and get positive response to what is best as well as what are the options.

I believe for now, we are still in a tender part of our lives, with a TON of history and experience to learn from. We will probably always be in a tender situation, as I firmly believe that a relationship has to continue to grow, so there can always be issues and things to address. It seems like the good times go fairly easy... it's getting thru the tough times that can make or break things.

Sound reasonable?

Sure, if you have a question, post it.

But you do have an issue with the whole concept of marriage, as you argued in an earlier thread. That is why you have chosen to live together and not marry. And the fact that you have been married to each other before suggests that you have specific reasons for not wanting to marry each other again.

If you do not want to get married, you shouldn't live together. If you want to live together, you should make the full commitment, become buyers, and marry.

Really, everything you need to know about how to make your relationship work is contained in this article: Fear of Marriage

Oh, thanks, Sugarcane, now I see.

Yes, Homelover, the program would specify that you get married, or not live together. If you're not willing to take one of those steps, I would suggest that you not expect good results to last.

Well - that wasn't a question that Homelover asked, and he might well do what he did on a previous thread, and ask me what I did to cause my husband's affair. I think he was trying to show me what it was like to be offered irrelevant advice. Of course, I don't see any advice that I offered, including this, as irrelevant.

From Dr Harley's point of view, there is a great difference between being married and living together. Indeed, you don't have to follow Dr Harley's philosophy to see that living-together relationships are more fragile and unstable than marriages.

It's also true that marriages today are much more fragile and unstable than they were 50 years ago, and there may be many reasons for that, but anybody who wants a stable, and also happy, romantic relationship for life needs to become a buyer. The only way to become a buyer is do all the things that Dr H recommends in that article; marry because you are in love, meet ENs and avoid hurting each other.

This program also encourages the unfaithful spouse to make just compensation to the betrayed spouse and to express remorse about the affair. Homelover finds this objectionable so I can't see how he can follow it.

All,

I've had a chance to look over the situation here and have the following comments.
First of all, I had the opportunity to talk to Dr. and Joyce Harley about my situation and was interviewed on their radio station.

They are both very nice and committed people, and were very sympathetic to my situation and were helpful. Dr. Harley did say that my current living condition with my ex may not be totally inappropriate. We plan to marry at sometime in the future, but will be a religious marriage only, not one sanctioned by the state. The current laws do not favor marriage from a financial point of view and we both feel that is not in our best interest for our relationship, however, I did tell Dr. Harley that I would explore that again with some professionals, which I am doing.

I was also asked other questions and given good answers. For the most part everything was positive.

I did email them later and wanted clarification on my living situation and he did say that I should marry her within a week or move out.

My current counselor has advised us to stay together for many reasons and at this time, that is our choice.

I hope my situation is not offensive to anyone here and I have no problem if one chooses not to respond. I'm sure I'll continue to learn from here and may post as appropriate.

I see no point in anybody trying to help you with Marriage Builders when you are refusing to follow the program from the get-go. You are cherry picking, and it will not work.

We'll all help encourage you to follow this excellent advice from Dr. Harley.

Marry her within a week, or move out. There's not much else we can tell you.

Actually they do, unless you are planning to end the marriage at some point.

Agreed. How can it be true that not getting married favors you? The only case where that could be true is if someone is on public assistance or something and getting married doesn't help the financial situation (which would be absurd). Getting married basically always helps financially. You are pooling resources, which is always a help.

You must have an AGI of >$349k as a married couple to see significant marriage penalties. With a good CPA, you can legally shelter a large amount of money. And most couples who do make that much still get married.

And you were married long enough that your wife has a right to all your assets anyway.

Get married or move out already.

What date were you on the radio show? I listen regularly. I remember an email being addressed that sounded like you, but I missed you being a live guest. I would like to re-listen to that show.

Well,

I was on the radio show June 30th.

Marco and Prisca: I cannot take financial advice from someone that is not knowledgable about it and doesn't know what the laws are. There are clearly advantages of being single to a HUGE extent for our situation and we have decided that it's appropriate to be single by "man's" law. I realize that you're against our living situation. However, Dr. Harley did have some reservations, which he clearly stated on the radio show, and my current counselor (who is very much as qualified as the Harley's, has advise that we were fine) makes me feel strong in our decision to stay together.

FWIW, we BOTH have a right to each other's assets, and have agreed to same, but that's not the topic of discussion.

We don't have plans to end things, and makes no financial difference.

We are prudent people and do financial planning to benefit US, not anyone else, including the government.

And, no, we will not separate at this time. We have lived together for some 40 years, why do you think we can't handle living together now, with our differences solved? Even Dr. Harley mentioned that.

Most of you have gone thru similar situations and have come out OK, as we plan to do. If we can get help here, we will appreciate it. We look for help and guidance from many sources.

The "man's laws" excuse is what most renters and freeloaders say in order not to get married. Being financially, emotionally and spiritually vulnerable to another person is what constitutes a marriage. Not being legally married makes a huge difference. If you want to just live with your girlfriend obviously nobody can stop you, but this bunch won't be able to offer you any advice.

We'll all help encourage you to follow Dr. Harley's excellent advice: marry her in a week, or move out.

Since taxes are the priority, just do whatever you want to do.

I listened to the radio show again.

I don't get it. You seem to be more interested in seeking approval for your solution than you are at accepting advice. Why? Why do you care what Dr. Harley or the rest of us think? The success or failure of your relationship does not depend on what we think. It depends on what the two of you do.

Get married if you are serious; don't if you are not. The money issue is a red herring. My wife and I could profit if we were to divorce, because she is ineligible to collect her social security because of my government pension. Using your logic, we should go ahead and divorce because we are already totally committed to each other, so we could still have each other and all that extra money, too. Not on your life. When you are really in love, money doesn't matter more than your marriage. Your problem is that you really aren't committed all that much, so the choice isn't obvious to you.

What is fine about living together? These relationships are not fine. They are uncommitted, tenuous, fragile relationships by their very nature. And yours is no exception. Just the fact that you place money before your relationship says it all. You have had many problems in the past, and you will have more in the future because this is a renters relationship. Once that happens, it will be too easy to just walk away. Or is that the point?

Either way, i am not sure what you want help with here since you aren't here to follow Dr Harley's advice. If you have a counselor who tells you shacking up is great, then why come here for advice that you aren't going to take?

First, I'm not going to debate the points you've made above that are just not true, that I've stated in the past, I'll let you read past posts.

Everything is fine about living together, and that's what we have decided to do at this time. I love it and so does she. Marriage will probably be in the future, but there are MANY, MANY folks that "shack up" as you say (I call it living together), that are doing every bit as good or better than their married counterparts. Marriage does NOT guarantee a thing, as is clearly evident by the history of the posters here, and statistics.
If I insisted on marriage and my GF did not, we would not be following the POJA, which we choose to follow. That is more important, along with other basic concepts that foster a good relationship... not just living quarters.

While Dr. Harley did suggest that we marry or move apart, he also said that our situation may not be inappropriate.

I've come for advise, just that, as I do from many sources. And I don't always agree, nor is all advise applicable or even well advised.

You are free to do what you wish. However, I am at a loss as to what you want from this forum. You will never convince us that your living together arrangement is a good thing. We are never going to give our approval. And the only advice you will ever hear from us is "Get married or move out."

But you are not married so the POJA does not apply. The principles recommended here are for marriages, not for dating situations.

You were given good advice: don't shack up. There is nothing here for you if you aren't married.

Radio Clips of Homelover's Show
Segment #2
Segment #3
Segment #4

But why does someone unmarried want advice about marriage? Follow your own advice if you like, it's a free country. This website explicitly advises people not to live together because the subsequent marriage, if they get that far, is very unstable and the divorce statistics for these 'many, many people' are through the roof.

But you don't have to follow the advice of this site or of Dr H. You are entirely free to follow your own judgement.

What's the problem?

Looks like you've been given plenty of advice that you can't stomach because it doesn't agree with your biases. Thanks for the tip about the applicability and suitability of all advise, BTW. Everyone else in the world just blindly accepts what other people tell them without evaluating it's rationality, you're really the only one using discretion.

Our points of view about marriage vs living together do have a few statistics behind them too.

But that's really beside the point. What you came here to do is possibly to solicit advice, but most of this thread is like every other one I see here from someone who is combative with MB veterans (and many of those from people who refuse to marry for whatever reason). You're convinced your situation is somehow unique in way that invalidates everyone else's point of view to some degree.

You're obviously not 100% satisfied with your situation yet you reject advice that makes the architect of your situation (YOU) uncomfortable.

Good luck with things.

Just got a chance to listen to your show...

1. You still do not believe that your affair had anything to do with your divorce, and you drastically downplayed the affair when talking to Dr. Harley and Joyce. Your mindset is still very wayward, and a danger to your ex-wife.

2. Dr. Harley told you to get a good tax attorney that can help you protect your resources while getting married. He said you could have it all. You admitted you don't even have an attorney, so your assumptions that there are financial drawbacks is your own uninformed opinion. Get the expert's opinion.

Dr. Harley said he knew good tax attorneys he could recommend. Have you followed through with that?

I've just listened to your show.

Dr Harley nailed your intention never to remarry, despite your saying that the only thing stopping you was the tax situation. He asked you whether, if the tax thing could be sorted out, you would marry, and you said no.

He called your bluff by offering to find you an attorney who would ensure that marriage did not disfavour you. He got you commitment to following through on that.

He backed the forum posters who told you that you should not live together without the commitment of marriage.

He tied you up like a kipper!

***EDIT***

Sugar Cane,

A few points (and you need to re listen to the show)

Dr. Harley never nailed my intention to never remarry, as it didn't exist. I said at least twice during the show that I would, regardless of the tax situation.

I did following up on getting tax advise (from one Dr. Harley recommended) and two others, and still working on it.

If you listen carefully to what Dr. Harley said in the beginning and I'll quote, "It might not be something that I would be opposed to, because an argument could be made that might help them to reconcile�.

It was a good, positive discussion... sorry you didn't benefit from it.

More to come, waiting for some responses.

Prisca,

You need to listen to the show again. The OW is, and has been, clearly out of the picture, and never affected the divorce. She is a non issue at this point.

My comment re tax advise is in adjacent post.

Also, I do have my own place, since Aug 1.

More to come......

I did benefit from it.

Are you going to remarry?

Yes.

Did you get a GOOD chance to digest what Dr. Harley said about Legal Marriage vs. Religious marriage. He makes some very good points against legal marriage as it doesn't support religious marriage, nor is it getting better, although he still supports both. Interesting.

You are here again, arguing about the usefulness and necessity of marriage. It's what you have done since you first posted.

Dr Harley advocates for traditional marriage. He defends it as the essential building block of society. He thinks its importance is critical, and he regrets its decline. His view is unequivocal, and it has been expressed in many places, where I have read and listened to it.

You don't appear to agree with him about the fundamental importance of marriage, to individuals, children and society. That is fair enough; you are entitled to your views!

I just don't understand why you have come here to argue your view, on this traditional marriage forum. This forum is here to help people who want to build good marriages. Why come here to dispute the importance of marriage with us?

Just because you say she was a non-issue does not make her a non-issue. That's my point entirely -- that you KEEP insisting she was a non-issue. I don't need to relisten to the show to know that.

I say again: you drastically downplay the affair and the affects it had on your marriage and your ex-wife. Your mindset is still very wayward, and a danger to your ex-wife.

To keep insisting that the OW was a non-issue in your divorce is a great insult to every BS on this board.

How disrespectful and condescending. You don't like what a poster says so you tell them they didn't need to listen to the show that they ALREADY told you they listened to?

I find this ironic especially since these are the same posters who you argued with for pages and pages only to later get the same advice that you later got from Dr Harley himself: Marry her or move out.

These posters are people who listen to the radio show regularly (and have done so for years) and have done the online program. Think twice before dismissing their advice.

Homelover has been confronted about this issue on these forums before and ends up conceding that this is an "OW" and not a "GF" and that he is going to go NC. Only to later come back, still in contact and again arguing that she is not an OW and a "non-issue" (Despite also telling us that he can't stop thinking about her!)

An example from 2013:


Except he was not able to maintain the NC and they ended up continuing the affair, by his own admission.

I am going to guess that there is still some form of contact with this OW. It's the only explanation for why he would keep insisting she is a "non-issue", when he has already admitted previously that she is an issue and that he was going NC.

Sorry you feel this way. I quoted EXACTLY what Dr. Harley said, and if you don't believe it, listen again. I'm not disrespectful nor condescending... just telling the truth.

I know he promotes traditional marriage, but he has clearly commented on the difference between that and religious marriage and the fact the traditional marriage doe NOT support any of the concepts he teaches, and make it more difficult to do, and easier to end.

I did move out, like I mentioned.

Homelover, the only thing you've done since coming back today is argue with posters.

Why are you here?

He's been arguing with posters since his first thread YEARS ago about:

shacking up
importance of marriage
whether the OW was an OW or his "GF" (despite the fact that he was still living with his BW at the time he was posting at one point)
opposite sex friendship impact on marriage
whether he needs to implement NC with the OW while rebuilding relationship with exBW (despite the fact that he admitted he couldn't stop thinking about OW)

Amazingly, he is the one that is angry at the forum for trying to set him straight and teach him Dr Harley's works (that he could have read on his own) when he should be thankful so many used their precious (volunteer) time away from families etc to try to help him! Nice!!

Homelover, what is your question?

Susie,

You really don't have to spend your precious time trying to help me, and you have given no support nor help and don't appreciate what I've accomplished at all. All of the above has been commented on and should have been brought to a conclusion, which, for some reason you have chosen not to believe, but continue to dwell on it. Isn't it time to offer helpful advise, or say nothing at all?

And Sugar Cane,

You never did respond to my question:
"Did you get a GOOD chance to digest what Dr. Harley said about Legal Marriage vs. Religious marriage? He makes some very good points against legal marriage as it doesn't support religious marriage, nor is it getting better, although he still supports both. Interesting."

If you would listen again you would understand exactly what Dr. Harley was talking about and perhaps you could make comments relevant to the situation. I'm seriously not trying to be condescending, I'm stating facts and looking for explanations. I'm sure you have them, and I don't understand the reluctance to help.

Please answer.

Yes, I got a GOOD chance to digest what Dr Harley said, thank you.

So, what do you think?

What do you mean, "what do you think"? What am I being questioned about, and why?

I don't understand what "situation" you want me to make comments about. Do you mean about your relationship? I posted what Dr Harley said about your relationship a month ago. What else do you want me to comment about?

What "explanations" are you looking for? Explanations about what? Reluctance to help with what?

You haven't asked a question about your relationship. Since yesterday, people have been asking you whether you have a question, and you have not asked one. What do you want comment, explanations and help with?

I'll repost so you won't have to go back and read what you missed....

"Did you get a GOOD chance to digest what Dr. Harley said about Legal Marriage vs. Religious marriage? He makes some very good points against legal marriage as it doesn't support religious marriage, nor is it getting better, although he still supports both. Interesting."

Thank you for reposting. Yes, I got a GOOD chance to digest what Dr Harley said. I agree that it is interesting.