Hi All,

I've read a lot of MB books and here. Wife hasn't so much. She is a wonderful woman but very independent and as an example, I couldn't imagine a scenario (at the moment) where she would ever agree to POJA.

I'm hoping we'll get there though. We are currently reading the Harley devotional book (forgetting the name at the moment) and though we are only a couple of weeks in, I can see that it will give us opportunities to talk about some of these things without it seeming like I'm trying to force her into some program.

Anyway. One thing that has bothered me for a long time and pops up every couple of weeks:

My wife has some friends (all females) and family and if any of those people request something...my wife absolutely HAS to do what those folks have asked. It could be something simple like us attending a party, bringing the kids by for a visit or even "person X wants me to come see her new bathroom" - and it's like that 'thing' HAS to happen. At times it reminds me of a child saying "my parents said I have to be home by 6...so I have to go" - no room for anything.

I am not on that list, though. If I ask for something odds are it won't be that important to her and she isn't really that interested. As a result, I feel anger, resentment and unimportant (love bank withdrawls I assume) any time she goes along with one of these things she apparently feels obligated to do.

The very latest example is that she was sort of "pressured" into joining the neighborhood HOA by one of her woman friends' on the list (the list only exists in my head - it's not a real list). Wife doesn't really want to be on the HOA - at least not to the extent that she has agreed to be. Anyway - unbeknownst (supposedly) to my wife, HOA scheduled a meeting on our anniversary. Wife's position seems to be "I wish they had checked with me first...but I guess I'll go to the meeting anyway"

This further just makes me feel unimportant.

I know that marriage builders dictates that I talk about these things with her. I've come to believe that keeping it to myself is only leading to resentment. At the same time, I'm having trouble with it. As a Man - I feel like some kind of freak that I'm having hurt feelings over her doing something else on our anniversary. At the same time it feels (even though I know its right) 'weak' to always be whining to her about putting other people first.

Sorry, this got way more complicated than I meant. Am I dealing with a need of mine not being met - or am I dealing with a lovebuster here? Both? I'm sure I've muddied this water significantly, so ask any questions you'd like.

Your wife is committing the lovebuster of independent behavior. And eventually you will fall out of love with her if you don't do something about it. I would put aside the devotional book and jump to Lovebusters, particularly Independent Behavior.

Secondly, if you can't motivate to engage in this program, then I would suggst you get counseling with one of the Harleys and let them sell her on it. You clearly need help selling this and I have found that when the program can't be sold it is usually because the person doesn't have a good understanding of the program. There are so many benefits to the program and when it is explained properly, most people do get on board.

I would counsel with either STeve or Jennifer and get their advice on how to get her on the phone with them. And then when they get her on the phone they can sell the program to her.

MBF vet Melody Lane has given you excellent advice. As someone who has been in your wife's shoes, I'd like to add to it.
Putting her friends first before you on your anniversary is a big indicator of how your wife is neglecting you. Let her know how hurt you are, don't hide it. It's certainly not being weak or whining! Letting the resentment grow without addressing it is the worst thing to do. She needs to know her behavior is unacceptable, and is hurting your marriage. She is taking you for granted, and if you're not careful, you're headed for an affair, even if you can't imagine it happening to you. Your EN's are not being met, she is love busting big time, and you are being neglected. It's classic, what you describe.
It happened to me--my husband felt neglected and succumbed to temptation by an experienced marriage wrecker--and when I discovered it, I was devastated. I wouldn't wish the pain I've suffered on my worst enemy--except for the OW!! Luckily we have survived, and we are in love again. Thank God we found MB.
With hindsight, I wish my husband had confronted me head on, told me my independent behavior (= neglect) was unacceptable, and given me an ultimatum of seeking help together from a marriage counselor--preferably the Harley's, or someone who subscribes to the MB program.
Read Dr. Harley's article on the website, When to Call It Quits, part I. It addresses your situation perfectly, only with the roles reversed. Have your wife read it.
Good luck! You are already lucky, to have found MB!

Thank you Melody,

I read your response yesterday and have just been letting it 'simmer' in my brain.

I know you're right.

Thank you itsmeagain. Great insight and I greatly appreciate your advice.

I believe you're right as well. Now, to come up with a plan.

Are you listening to MB Radio? Segments 3 & 4 on 3/26 offer a lot of pertinent information for your situation: how to present complaints, not demands; how to get a reluctant spouse on board with MB. I would copy the links here but I don't know how. You might want to subscribe to Radio Archives, which are searchable by date and topic.
You can also email your situation to the Harley's for the radio show and they will address it on the air.
It's often easier to get a spouse to listen to someone else give advice rather than read it.
As to a plan, I think Dr. Harley would advise you to voice your complaint (her independent behavior) while using Plan A for a limited time.

Here they are MBRADIO 3/26 Segment 3
MBRADIO 3/26 Segment 4

Awesome.

Thank you guys. I will listen tonight.

Thanks again all,

After reading your posts, listening to those marriage builder radio sessions - and doing a lot of thinking - I raised the issue with my Wife last night.

It was a good talk, not too defensive, not too many "ya, well you...." moments.

The night before last we had kind of a small argument where she had (without mentioning it to me at all, which as I've previously indicated happens often) offered to let her brother host his kids birthday party at our house (long story). So last night, she essentially said "I just don't understand what the big deal is"

So I got an opportunity to pitch reading lovebusters - saying that I know that I am guilty of many of the behaviors in there and that it it might helpful for us and that though I wasn't successfully finding a way to explain why it bothered me, the book explains things much better than I do.

She coincidentally left on a 2 day trip this morning. She asked if I had a copy and said she'd begin reading it on the airplane but my only copy is electronic (and she doesn't want to read a book on her phone). She asked if I thought she could get the book at a Barnes & Noble or something and said she would try to pick it up on her trip so she could at least start reading it on the flight back.

I have difficulty imagining that she would ever willingly agree to use POJA for things, but one step at a time right? As long as she ends up reading it (I've read it before but intend to read it again) it must be a good thing. It might also bring an opportunity to set up a conversation with Steve Harley if we have questions or something like that.

YDB, you could also set up a session with Steve for just yourself and get his advice on how to get her on the phone. He doesn't counsel people together anyway. He would assess your situation and give you ideas on how to motivate her to do the program and get on the phone with him. He would listen to her perspective - privately, without you there - and try to motivate her.

Do you travel apart very often?

Not too often. She is going to visit a girlfriend who's wedding we missed earlier this year (traveling with her best girl friend of 25 years)

I had a men's mission trip earlier this year through our church - and she is going on a women's mission trip in a month or two. So this year is actually 'heavy' in terms of nights apart.

I would say that we probably have only a couple nights apart in a normal year - and those have typically been her away for a night with my sister or mom present. I am aware that Dr. Harley explains how dangerous and damaging it can be. We both exercise openness with open access to emails, facebook, internet search histories, cell phones, etc.

Well, wife picked up lovebusters today. I'm feeling excited - but also anxious about reading it together.

I am sure that I lovebust her too, so hopefully it will be a good experience for both of us.

When you do the home study course, Dr H recommends that the husband and wife use different colours of highlighter pen and mark the passages of importance to them, that they want the other spouse to pay particular attention to. So, you highlight love busters that you want her to be aware of and vice versa.

That way, you can bring something to the other's attention without having to raise it in conversation, which is difficult to control.

I recommend also getting the workbook Five Steps to Romantic Love (from Amazon or from this website) and doing the exercises that accompany the reading. There is no point bringing an issue to the other's attention if you then don't have the first clue how to resolve it.

Great idea Sugarcane, thank you. I like the idea of getting the workbook as well, but I'm just trying to be patient and hope that she comes to believe in Dr. Harley's ideas as much as I do.

We read chapter 1 and discussed it yesterday. We did go through all of the "highlights" we each had. We also talked through the questions at the end of the chapter.

It was a very honesty discussion including acknowledgement by both of us that our marriage had peaks and valleys - we don't have as many peaks (and don't stay at those peaks) as we'd like - and though our valley's aren't as bad as the illustration in the book, or as bad as we hear from other people - we are interested in reducing the frequency and depth of them.

It was good. We are shooting for 3-4 chapters per week so hopefully we'll get through it quickly. I've read chapter 2 but we've yet to discuss it.

Now I suppose in the next actual "lovebuster" chapters - will I recognize the ones that I'm frequently guilty of - and will she recognize the ones that she is frequently guilty of. I have faith that Dr. Harley has written the book in a way that will help us to discuss and recognize.

Thanks again for the comments along the way everyone!

Day 2 completed. We talked about chapter 2 and 'abuse'.

It's not very FUN to talk about! It actually kind of sucks, but I'm grateful that I'm married to a woman who can discuss things and be fair about things and be real about things without getting defensive or upset.

I have to assume we are on the path that the book intends as we are both basically feeling like "ya, we need to do things differently."

I've tried to be open about owning my bad behaviors - and she has been open about owning hers so I'm still excited. It would just be SO nice if things were easy and fun and simple and uplifting! Hopefully we'll get there.

Don't get discouraged. You two are making great progress and she even seems to show enthusiasm for reading what you asked her to read and discussing it.
My wayward husband acts like I'm torturing him every time I ask him to read a few pages of one of the Harley's books. So consider yourself lucky that your wife is so willing.

Thanks for the encouragement hoping.

Things continue to go well. We are still on pace and have read 4 chapters so far. Discussion has been good. Both have modified our behaviors to at least some degree. We've had some pretty meaningful things shared.

I felt certain that when we got to the POJA chapter, she was going to lose interest in the book, but she hasn't so far! I'm really excited with the way things are going so far (so thanks again everyone for the advice).

Question:
(we aren't facing this exactly at the moment but I'm looking ahead)

Could someone give an example of a POJA/Negotiation with regard to money/budget?

Just using a fictional example here. Say that this next year, my wife wants to donate $10,000 to charity. But, say I'm only comfortable donating $5,000 to charity. How do we negotiate that?

I have no experience with POJA negotiations (new to it). But I'm having a hard time envisioning me being enthusiastic at 7500 - or her being enthusiastic at 7500... Would anyone mind offering some insights.

If the charity aspect of it throws the argument off - then pretend it is for home decor - or travel - or clothes - or whatever.

Read these.
How to resolve financial conflicts #1
Financial conflicts #2

Thanks Brain - I don't know why but I have trouble navigating this site sometimes to find things.

Good articles. Let me ask the likely most common question - when committing to the POJA - doesn't the (in the case of money) spouse who spends the least (is most frugal, cheapest, whatever) get the sort of immediate power?

They could find it difficult to be enthusiastic about ANY spending - which would lead to no spending by default.

That's why you need to use the entire program. Even the most frugal spouse wants their spouse, that they are in love with, to be happy and enjoy life. POJA is easy when two people are in love.

No spending may be the default while they are falling back in love. There are a lot of temporary defaults while rebuilding a marriage.

Thanks CWMI -

I think "enjoying life" is something that I often lose focus of - both for my spouse and for me and that is a REALLY bad thing.

Thanks for your post as it really gave me a message that I needed to hear.

We are still working through the book - think we're discussing chapter 8 - independent behavior next (maybe tonight) and I will continue to post questions I have.

The experience has been great so far (even though I acknowledge that I still have a long way to go)

Well that was discouraging. We talked about the chapter on independent behavior (I believe IB is the LB that causes me the most pain in our marriage).

It was a calm, non-angry discussion. But she changed her tune from 'Dr. Harley is logical and makes a lot of sense' to 'I just don't know, some of it makes sense, but other parts don't'.

She said:
- 'but I just want to do the things that I want to do'
- 'but there have been things you would have said no to, that you actually ended up having fun doing' (ie - just keep going along with what I say because sometimes it works out ok)
- 'but I don't really ever say no to the things you want to do, so this (poja) would just give you all the control'

The cherry on top was when she brought up something from the past. About 3 years ago we had a newborn (a few months old) and wife was very down, tired, etc, etc (understandable I know since she is a SAHM). She'd experienced some postpartum with our first child and I was worried that she might be there again. I encouraged her to talk to a counselor. She saw the counselor two times for 1 hour each time and at both sessions, the counselor's input seemed to be (I wasn't there) that "your husband sounds very controlling" (I do not believe that I am).

At that time, I disagreed with it as well. I didn't understand how the counselor could label me without ever having met me or spoken with me. I asked at the time if we could talk to the counselor together - so that I could at least answer some questions and be involved in the discussion before being labeled as a 'problem' - but my wife decided instead that she didn't really need to see the counselor anymore.

Fast forward 3 years to last night and she said "that counselor said you were controlling...and I didn't really think so...but now I kind of wonder" she went on to say that she thought either consciously or subconsciously - me trying to get us on the MB program was really just me trying to control her.

At the close of our conversation I said 'I feel like I'm saying that this relationship isn't working that well and that I need things to be different...and I feel like you're saying 'no, things are fine just keep going along with it.'

She basically had no response but within a few seconds was just talking normally about something else - which made it seem to me that my comment had absolutely no impact on her (or wasn't taken seriously)

I had been keeping "let's talk to Steve Harley" in my back pocket -- but if she thinks I'm just trying to be controlling - she's never going to go for that - she'll think I'm just trying to use him to further my perceived agenda.

I'm not controlling!!!
I want an equal marriage where both of our feelings/wants/desires are considered before decisions are made.
I can't name a single aspect of our lives where I am controlling (or even where she lets me lead!)

So I'm just feeling very, very discouraged this morning. I don't see the point in continuing the book if she believes my agenda is to gain control - when my actual, honest, true agenda is just that we have the best marriage possible with the greatest chance to make it 'til death do us part'

You are enthusiastic about donating $5000 to charity. She is also enthusiastic about that. She is enthusiastic about donating $10,000 as well. Her resentment of you all not donating the extra $5000 is less than yours of having to donate $5000 more. If she truly says no to $5000, then the default is to do nothing.

To negotiate you could go over your budget (realistic budget) and you could say where you think money should go and why. She can say where she think it should go. She can say that she is willing to give up pedicures that she normally gets and donate that money to charity. You may be happy with that. She may say she is willing to give up vacations to donate the money to charity. You many not be happy with that. You may think you need to save every extra cent and she may say that she would really like to donate SOME money to charity an dperhaps you think of a charity that you are both happy with.

"Controlling!" is the favorite refrain of the die-hard IBer. I would try to not defend yourself or argue against it too hard. IME, they know the truth, and your wife said it: she wants to do what *she* wants.

And she just learned that she would need to consider you if she went all-in with MB. That is scary to the person who is accustomed to doing what they want, when they want.

Try explaining to her that you think you might not have a good grasp on the program and would like to speak with Steve to get a clearer picture. Ask her if she would like to join you. Tell her you have no intention of being controlling, and the way you understand POJA is that it would make 'control' impossible, but maybe you are misunderstanding how it works. Just one call. And if you both don't agree to go forward with coaching from there, you won't, but you would appreciate the time with an expert to get a clearer picture of what it means and how it might be useful to your marriage. Or not. You'd like the opportunity to decide together after talking to him.