Can an emotional need be trust? My husband lists this as his top need and says when I question him about anything, I am love busting.

More info? What questions do you need answering? Usually when people ask for blind trust and refuse to be transparent they are hiding something and conducting Independent Behaviour. So he is likely lovebusting you with IB.

It sounds like you have a need for Openness and Honesty which he is refusing to meet.

If you are angry with him though, or sulking or demanding that is lovebusting

Just ask and tell him its a problem he needs to address.

Saying you won't stay in a secretive marriage is not lovebusting. Its a fact

Happy Halloween S4N!
I haven't read all of your posts butit looks like you came on board looking from some MB style counseling, or resources and have participated in a few discussions.

I don't know if you've had your questions answered, but I'm also not sure if you've comprehensively shared your story.

If you started a thread (or went back to the original) with some background info and kept a running line of your questions and concerns it would easier for people to offer meaningful suggestions.

For instance I would answer your question above differently if this was literally your first post; and moreso if it was your 70th and you started here a year ago.

Trust is absolutely NOT a EN (have your husband read the list - it's not there). In fact, according to Dr. H and MB philosophy, there is essentially no place for it in a marriage. But I wouldn't suggest you lay this on your husband without some considerable documentation to present because it goes against what most people think is a perfectly reasonable way to conduct a marriage (or parenting or whatever); so telling him this flat out would be possibly to question his sense of reality. Let Dr. H do that for you with his writings on the subject. Or write the radio show and see if Joyce and him will have you on the show -- a powerful commentary will ensue for sure.

Usually if someone insists on "trust" it's because they want to be able to do whatever they want without being accountable for it. I had my ex-wife's trust and I don't even want to talk about the things I did with that trust - she had mine and was engaging in the same behavior. Blind trust leads directly to Independent Behavior - a whopper of a lovebuster.

Now I'm in a relationship with someone who understands the danger of trust and also understands the wonderful benefits of openness and honesty, total transparency. I don't want her trust; I want her to know beyond a doubt that I would never do anything to hurt her... even when she's not watching.

I've learned to trust only one thing: my gut. With all others I'm Ronald Regan: "Trust but Verify."

opt

sigh4now,

Can you give an example of what you mean?

I have a situation that occurs when my wife questions many of the things I do. For me it is a lovebuster.

For instance, I'll have a task that needs to be completed. She'll question me on its completion and I let her know it was completed if it was or apologize if I haven't gotten to it yet.

But it's not enough that I tell her its completed. She'll continue to ask questions regarding HOW I completed the task and say things like "Are you sure you blah blah blah?". I'd rather she just trust that I did what was asked and I did it my way and that I had everyone's intention in mind when I completed the task.

The continual questioning is a control thing for her I'm sure and she wants to be sure the task was done and done right. But I would way much rather she just trust that I did the task and at an acceptable and maybe even astounding level. And because she does it all the time I'm a little sensitive to it and thus have lost faith that she's ever just going to trust me. So everytime she starts in with questions .... fingernails on a chalkboard. Ugh.

As far as a remedy I can surely tell you if things were clicking in the marriage I could live with the lack of trust in these situations.

No, blind trust is not an emotional need. People who get upset at being questioned about their activities are usually hiding something.

Can you be more specific about what type of "questions" upset him? Give a specific example, please.

Another way to handle this is to tell her when you are done and show her what you did. This gives her the opportunity to express any complaints/concerns, and it gives you an opportunity to improve.

And this is ALL contingent upon whether or not you both enthusiastically agreed to the task in the first place, using the POJA.

I think the only other question I asked on here was how to find a local counselor who follows marriage builders. I did find a great counselor but I've only gone once (over $100). I've wanted to post before on here, but I was hesitant in respect to my husband's need for privacy. My need for direction now trumps his need for privacy.

My husband & I wrote to the radio show, but it was taken out of context & I was told to leave. I have 4 kids, so it's not simple to just leave! I have a plan in place though & I'm closer to separating than staying. Both scenarios (staying or leaving) make me feel sick & sad.

Anyways, it pissed my husband off that they used our names & that they told me to leave, so he wanted nothing to do with any of this program (before that we had watched all of the videos & were listening to the radio show every other night). We do still go to a once a week group lecture on marriage. He has come around and says MB makes the most sense, but we haven't started listening to the show together or anything. I'm tempted to pay for the program as a surprise (we are not hurting, but we are both cheap), but I've read conflicting things on here about if that's a good idea or not. My other option is to pack my things, ask if he will give counseling a shot, & if yes, great, if not, leave.

I guess I've been in an extended Plan A as I try to figure things out & because life is busy with 4 kids. He is a good guy, great with the kids, he doesn't go out, he's not a partier/drinker, etc, so it's hard to walk away. Plus because we've been employing some of the marriage builders principals (no love busters (or trying really hard the majority of the time), UA time (not just family time - that's his inclination, but I crave just couple time), etc, then, again, it's hard to walk away. The two starting points - policy of radical honesty & policy of joint agreement are not sinking in though.

My problem is he wants to sweep everything under the rug & carry on & I want to discuss things, so 5 years from now we aren't repeating the same thing. However, he finds it an affront to his character to be questioned about things, hence my question today. Btw, my top need is open/honest communication. I need to know what I am dealing with.

My story, in a nutshell, is that I suspected an EA or maybe just extensive texting with his cousin's out-of-state girlfriend - she's very needy attention-wise (or someone??) within the past year, started snooping in July, found that he had signed up for an affair website in June (he said he was pissed at me, signed up, & then instantly regretted his lapse of judgment & got out, & the evidence I found shows this to be true time-wise - shows he was active for 5/10 min all on the same day), & then in amongst discussions of all of the above he admitted to looking at porn here & there over our entire marriage (I had no idea, except at the very beginning we tried it together & I said I didn't like it, & then I caught him on the computer looking at images & again said no way & he agreed or so I thought). He denies an affair of any sort, although I think he thinks an affair can only be physical, & I have no evidence, just a sense of being judged - my cooking & parenting (which my husband never judged before), he is truly sorry about the affair website, but he doesn't think there is anything wrong with porn (& when this all first came out said he would divorce over it. I'm not sure if he still thinks that).

The Hartley's thought he was currently active on the affair website & refusing counseling, so their advice was for me to leave. I guess our email wasn't very clear. I wouldn't divorce over just porn (especially because it doesn't interfere with his work or the frequency of our SF), but in conjunction with these other blurry items, I can't just sweep it all under the rug.

He gets annoyed if I question him about financial decisions, decisions about the kids, etc. He does make good sound decisions, but that doesn't mean I'm not going to weigh in & when I ask questions, it doesn't mean I don't trust his decision-making ability.

And then obviously about my questions if he was texting anyone, etc or my insecurities about him running errands now after setting up an account on a local affair website (even if it was short-lived - under 10 minutes!). He is in IT and would know if I set anything up on his computers/phone. And I don't suspect any activity now anyways. It's that he doesn't want to discuss all of what's in my first post anymore. He just wants me to trust him, which I honestly want to, but I can't force myself to do so!

So what does he want you to "trust" him about? That doesn't sound too wise in this situation.

Do you have a keylogger on his computer?

Trust but verify

That means he is practicing independent behavior and gets annoyed when you object. If he doesn't want to be questioned, he should use the policy of joint agreement and consult with you BEFORE any decisions are made.


No, you shouldn't trust him. But if he wants you to trust him more, he could take a polygraph and answer all your questions truthfully about his affair.

Additionally, I would sock a GPS and a VAR on his car. Get a keylogger on his computer and spyware on his phone. THAT will help your "trust" more than anything.

Sounds to me like he is having an affair. People who have nothing to hide don't hide like he does. He is hiding something.

No, I don't know how & he would know it was there. He's in IT.

Do you have PROOF the affair is over?

His time is accounted for & I do have the iPhone tracker/GPS so I can see where he is.

How would he know? The spyware programs are indetectable unless you are looking for them.

No, I don't even have proof there was an affair. The EA I suspect is separate from the affair website & took place before (If it happened, I still have no clarity).

Ok, so you know what he does on the computer and what he is doing when he is away from you? You know who he is talking to, have access to his texts, emails?

How? What are your spy resources?

So the basic issue is that you don't believe his story about the past affair?

If that is the case, I would schedule a polygraph for him. Two days before the polygraph tell him what you have done and hand him a list of all your questions. Give him one last chance to come clean and tell him that you fully expect him to pass the polygraph.

He will start singing like a canary and you will get the full story.

No he wouldn't. I'm in IT and I guarantee that I would never be able to detect a good quality software keylogger installed correctly. You do need the password to his computer if he keeps it locked down but you should have that anyway. I used Spector Pro but Spy Agent now gets the best rating.

The thing about keylogging software is that it takes screenshots of every page he visits so that you can read the emails/IMs etc well as giving you every password

Physically I know where he is, but no, I can't track if he is texting or talking to anyone. He just started a new job & is still finishing up at his last one & doesn't have extra time (he is home by 5/5:30 & interacts with our family). I watched the cell phone records for months & nothing was different, but I know people can chat through google, etc, so no I haven't tracked that.

t/j to livingwell, can you go make a post about Spy Agent in the Operation Investigate forum and write what you like about it? thanks...

We have had many people have affairs who never were away for one night from home. Every second was accounted for. First off, people don't have to meet in person to have an affair. A full fledged affair can be conducted over the phone/internet. And secondly, most of the affairs we see are workplace affairs with coworkers. They can meet just about anywhere during the work day and their spouses are never the wiser. Even the dumbest WS can hide an affair.

The fact that your husband wants you to "trust" him blindly is a huge red flag, especially with his history.

Do you have full access to his phone? Could you sneak some spyware on it? What about his computer:? Or does he have them both locked down like a thief?

So you recommend spyware on work laptops? What if I screw something up?

ML, I'm not sure yet that an affair happened.

Not saying he is doing this, but a common way to hide phone calls is to buy a pre-paid affair phone.

I have access to his phone, iPad, our home computers. I haven't tried to get on his new work's laptop.

I understand you are not sure an affair has happened. That is why I suggested a polygraph. That should give you the assurance you need. And he should welcome it because it will clear his name.

Your husband says he wants to be trusted, right? If so, then a polygraph will help enormously in that regard.

What's weird is the counselor I saw said even if someone is innocent, most people fail polygraphs, so he didn't recommend that??!!

I agree that it would be the easiest way for him to clear his name with me.

Oh & I agree that affairs can be emotional/happen on-line, but I don't think my husband believes/gets that.

That is not true. Police stations give them all the time. A good polygrapher is very effective. We have had great success with polygraphs and even Dr Harley now recommends them.

Typically, if someone is hiding something, they CONFESS it all before the test. People hate flunking them so they would rather confess. THAT is the main value of the test.

If you give him one last chance to answer all your questions before the test, you will likely get all your questions answered. We have had enormous success with this tactic.

Thats ok. What matters is that YOU get that, and that he understands you won't tolerate it. Does he have any opposite sex friendships?

Be patient, even the cleverest cheater slips up eventually. I caught mine out by detecting a single phone call. It was the one time that he forgot to use the prepaid card . .

Will do

Okay, I dismissed that as an option months ago, but researching that & getting it set up is better than meeting with a divorce lawyer.

Call your local police station and see if they have any recommendations. Former detectives/FBI agents are typically the best testers. Set up the appointment and don't tell your husband until 2 days in advance.

At that time hand him a list of questions and tell him you are giving him an amnesty period to come clean before the test but that you fully expect him to pass the test.

Even though the tester will only allow about 3 questions, your H will not know which 3. So you can ask as many questions as you want on your list.

Does he have opposite sex friends? No, not really. All of my gut feelings point to his cousin's out of state girlfriend. She's very needy & "cutesy" & online all the time & very caught up with my family - my kids, etc. It is most likely innocent, but it's still annoying. I'm sure if she's flattered him, he has enjoyed it. I finally deleted & blocked her from my FB so I didn't have to see her dumb comments.

Has he cut off all contact with her?

See, i would be getting keyloggers on his computers and spyware on his phone to watch for any contact. Additionally, I would ask him to take a polygraph.

Hello, sigh, and welcome (back) to Marriage Builders.

The thing I would like your husband to know is that the Marriage Builders program achieves trust when it is followed. If your husband wants you to trust him, and feels that this is a need of his, then he can have that after awhile if he will follow the rules of this program.

I'm going to try to go dig up a couple of my older posts on trust and how this is achieved. I would advise him to continue to listening to Dr. Harley with you, because Dr. Harley talks about this periodically.

Here is what I would like your husband to know:


(Original link for the historians among us: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2641721#Post2641721)

So the thing is, if your husband is willing to act in certain ways and is consistent about it, then in Dr. Harley's experience, you will eventually feel trust.

It's up to your husband to make you feel trust, not you.

At one point we were both deleting people from FB & he said if we deleted her all three of us would have to (our oldest daughter clicked with her) & I STUPIDLY said no. Because I have no direct evidence, I didn't want to screw up the relationship his cousin has with her (they are on the path to marriage). I mean know it was not an EA with ILUs exchanged, but more like what are you eating for lunch, etc. It's just I don't want any female involved in my husband's life! And it may not even be her! It's just something was "off".

So, what things can your husband do to help you feel trust sooner?

Practice transparency: keep you fully informed about his schedule, whereabouts, and who is with him. Reveal to you all email passwords, bank accounts, PIN numbers, etc. Invite you to check up on him using any means necessary, and if he notices you checking up on him, reassure you that this is okay. (My wife put a keylogger on my computer; I told her I was glad about it.)

Practice honesty: always tell the truth, do not conceal or change any details in order to "protect" you. Do not erase messages. Do not try to prevent misunderstandings, but simply tell the truth.

Thank you Markos & everyone for the advice & information.

You can change your mind.

Ask him to cut off contact with her, and then see what his reaction is.

Be assured that this was not simply a ten minute mistake. There was more before, and there has been more after. He goes on about "trust" and "insecurities" because he is gaslighting you - trying to make it out that you are the problem instead of his untrustworthy behavior.


Nobody is supposed to be secure after their spouse has an affair! That would not be normal. That would indicate a need for therapy, drugs, or hospitalization! How could anyone feel secure after such a thing? Either he is crazy to expect you to feel secure in the light of that, or else he is intentionally trying to deflect attention away from his misdeeds and try to make you think you are the problem so he can get away with it.

If he wants you to feel secure, he has to take actions that make you secure.

"Trust is an emotion. You can't force yourself to feel it. You have to create the right psychological environment to bring it about. The way to do that is with evidence: trust (the emotion) is built over time when repeated evidence adds up to trust being a reasonable conclusion for your emotions. And how can you do that if you aren't looking at the evidence?"

sigh4now, I highly encourage you to follow MelodyLane's suggestions and find out the truth. Based on his behavior and beating you up about not feeling the way he wants you to, I think it is highly likely that there is a lot he is not telling you.

An excellent show after a BW finds a text on her WH's phone, Harleys discuss trust.

Tell us what you think.
Radio clip
Segment #2
Segment #3
Segment #4

I'll listen to the links later - had a park play date, now car pool. Has anyone tried spy bubble for the iPhone? I quickly googled & it looks like I can easily download it to his phone.

Here about spy bubble.
Phone Recorders

Also, what if he has one on me? I swear I've felt "watched", but I have nothing to hide & never have.

If you have nothing to hide then there's no reason to fear being watched.

If he catches any spying tools, just say its part of your efforts to help clear his name. Smile and say you have LOTS of ideas of how he can EARN your trust!

Blindly trusting someone who has flirty contacts on FB, didn't want to delete her, and joined an affair website!!! Nooo. Can't believe he can ask for that with a straight face.

Joining a site like that is NOT a ten min decision. I've done some stupid things while angry, but never came close to making a conscious choice to be wayward...

It only takes ten mins to ruin.a family.



Phrases:

"Its very easy for you to earn my trust"

"I am eager for you to earn my trust"

"I am not insecure. I am alert"

"Your behaviour on occasion is not trustworthy"

"Please do not make decisions without my input"

"I trust your judgement, but we need to use my judgement too"

"Do not make decisions for me"

"I will be very happy when you regain my trust"

That would be perfectly okay, wouldn't it? My wife had a keylogger on me for over a year until that laptop crashed and I had to get it replaced. She may have one on my now; I don't actually know.

You can build his feeling of trust for you by being willing to be open and transparent with him. And vice versa.

Yes it's fine if he does, but then he'll be reading this so any efforts to log keystrokes will be lost!

Like everyone has said, try not to let him release..but its not a disaster if he does.

You'll have multiple spying techniques.

Though Op Investigate forum may have some tips on how to check if anything is spying already.

For many wh's, just knowing you're under a potential spotlight can be a deterrent. Remember the philospohy that human beings tend to be unfaithful in certain circumstances. So the circumstances of having a potential keylogger on your computer, gps on your car, and a drone 2 miles in the sky watching your every move are sometimes enough to take the fun out of sneaking around.

A marriage can survive the scrutiny of one spouse (or both); even clandestine scrutiny. Most do NOT survive infidelity.

opt

I cannot figure the software out! If his phone isn't jailbroken, I can't apply a keylogger, right? Do I dare jailbreak a work phone?

I tried a free one on mine first just to see how it works & that's a disaster. The icon is still on my phone & I can't get rid of it.

I need a step by step iphone keylogger "for dummies".

Have you seen this?
Iphone help

Okay spy bubble seems the easiest to follow, but I guess an iPhone 5 can't be jailbroken yet?

Quick update - Never figured out any spy things, but we worked on our marriage a lot, however now I feel like everything we learned is not being implemented fully.

Anyways, I know the rule is for everyone to keep all their posts in one thread....

I'm trying to find a radio program or maybe a video where Dr. Harley said it's a lie if a spouse says it's a security issue to bring you to their desk. I've been searching & nothing turns up. It may have been another expert saying it, but I'm pretty sure it was Dr. Harley. Can anyone help me find it? Thanks!

Oh wait first he said it was unprofessional & then said it was a security thing (no he does not work in anything that requires strict security.

You heard Dr. H say this?