So, I�ve been reading here daily for a few years and I�ve finally at my end. I�ve read his needs her needs and love busters but I�m done.
Our details: Married 17 years, DD15, DS12
My wife is a freeloader/renter�freeloader to me and renter to the kids. I�ve made all the mistakes by trying to fix her, hope, expectations. The last few years I�ve been cleaning up my side of the street but I think I�m done and don�t care anymore. I can honestly say, it�s true the opposite of love isn�t hate it�s indifference.
I�ve finally told my wife about a year ago, I don�t love her and I will divorce her�she didn�t care. I am a wallet and babysitter to her and that�s it. I�m looking to find a way to last another six years until the kids are gone.
I understand this site is all about repairing marriages but I think we are done and I need to shift to survival mode. I can go into more details if needed but I'm not sure it's really needed.
6 years, heh?
Give me 6 'good reasons' why you should NOT try MB course?
After all, you have 6 years in which to try.
After that, you can actually say,
"I gave it my best shot." Here is the *link* A Word of Caution: Don't spring this on your spouse!
When my wife, Joyce, and I were first married, I bought a product from Honeywell that was intended for newlyweds, but I didn't tell her about it until it arrived in the mail. It was a surprise.
Well, Joyce was not at all pleased when I opened the box. She felt ambushed. We weren't having any problems, but I thought it certainly couldn't hurt. I was wrong.
If that's how Joyce reacted when we were having a terrific relationship, can you imagine how your spouse might react if you are having serious problems. Instead of being encouraged by your interest in your marriage, your spouse might think you are trying to control him or her, and totally reject the idea of taking the courses.
So before you order, be sure that you have your spouse's enthusiastic agreement. If you discuss it with each other, and decide to take these courses together, you will already be practicing one of my very important basic concepts, the Policy of Joint Agreement.
You said:
I�ve finally told my wife about a year ago, I don�t love her and I will divorce her�she didn�t care.
If you told your W about your 6-year deadline, you gave her permission to continue her indifference. You need to instill some sense of urgency within her. Not 6 years. Maybe 8 months.
Oh my word. notso. You are so me.
I was here for over 10 years before I finally pushed for MB counseling. It got my W and I on the same path and our marriage is finally much better than it was for the 10 (heck 23 ) years prior.
I too was going to wait it out another 10 years or so. I was so withdrawn about 5 months ago I didn't give a flying hoot what she did. I was raising my kids. Blech. Double Blech. It was a stupid stupid thing to do. I was so caught up in not wanting to drop a single cent on our marriage. Sometimes I can be a cheapskate.
I made it about a year doing this. I soon found that my indifference started to turn to internal anger and loathing. I didn�t want to break up our family but I couldn�t keep doing what I was doing. It was really starting to affect my health (mental and physical). It is depressing just thinking where I was.
You will soon find yourself there.
As I see it you have several options.
- MB counseling. This has some expense to it.
- Plan B on your own without counseling. But only if you�ve done a good Plan A. And only if you are unable to get your W on board with MB. This is risky and not a good option as you, just like me, haven�t given this MB thing a true chance.
- Plan D. This is extremely expensive.
Your current plan is NOT AN OPTION as it will lead to something extremely ugly and potentially dangerous.
I�ve finally told my wife about a year ago, I don�t love her and I will divorce her�she didn�t care. I am a wallet and babysitter to her and that�s it.
If you are a wallet and a babysitter to her you're wrong. She'll care once she has to live without your wallet and your services.
I suspect she sees it as an idle threat.
Call to set up an appt with one of the MB counselors for yourself first. They'll help you plan this thing right. They'll help you decide what your next step should be. Do this today. You need to get on with your life ... whatever that may be.
Thanks everyone for replying,
I think maybe I should go into more detail. I�ll be 21 years military this summer and will retire in October. My wife is Japanese and both verbally and physically abusive. For several years she had me convinced I deserved the way she treated me and her life was so hard. Basically plan doormat!
She doesn�t know my timeline and I�ve already told her, when we move back to the States she can come with us or not. It�s up to her. I only keep her around as the kids have asked me to, they hate my cooking
.
I�ve tried every angle I can come up with to sell her on the MB program but the answer is always � I don�t want an American marriage.� I�ve talked at length about emotional needs, what I need and how I could fulfill her needs but no, nothing.
In the last year we�ve had sex 8 times and only because I couldn�t take it anymore and initiated while she was half asleep. Now she doesn�t go to bed until 5 in the morning to avoid this from happening.
She refuses to show any affection and tells me I�m weird to want a hug or kiss.
As soon as we got married she refused to have any fun with me�she�ll invite me to drink with her friends or play slot machines together but I hate it.
She won�t talk to me unless it�s to berate me�when I get home from work if she says anything it�s usually �what are you doing home�
Please trust me when I say I�ve used the program but I�m not willing to give up time with my kids�EVER! If I could trust she wouldn�t stash my kids with her family�never seeing them again, I might be willing to be heavier handed with the boundaries. So like I said, I just need to find a way to continue stuffing my needs for the next few years.
I just need to find a way to continue stuffing my needs for the next few years.
Good luck.
Thank you for your service.
Please trust me when I say I�ve used the program but I�m not willing to give up time with my kids�
ok, nst, I can tell you haven't used the program at all because I am certain you have never followed the policy of undivided attention and you certainly don't follow the POJA when you have sex with her when she is asleep! [a sure fire ticket to a sexual aversion!] The program doesn't work unless you use it in its entirety. Each of the concepts are like a spoke in the wheel; you can't take a little of this and a dab of this and expect to have anything.
I would take MrAlias' suggestion and get coaching with the Harley's. Since your wife seems so aggressive, though, I think you should try Steve Harley. You can coach with Steve alone the first time and develop a plan of attack to get her on the phone the next time.
both verbally and physically abusive.
In cases like this Dr. Harley recommends separation until the abuse ends. It doesn't matter if it's male or female who is the victim of the abuse.
I would definitely recommend you talk with Steve. He'll cut to the quick and give you immediate steps to take to help you with your situation.
The phone counseling is a very effective way of counseling.
I would take MrAlias' suggestion and get coaching with the Harley's. Since your wife seems so aggressive, though, I think you should try Steve Harley. You can coach with Steve alone the first time and develop a plan of attack to get her on the phone the next time.
I would definitely recommend you talk with Steve. He'll cut to the quick and give you immediate steps to take to help you with your situation. The phone counseling is a very effective way of counseling.
x2
I have counseled with Steve Harley - he is amazing, and completely different from anyone you've ever talked to before (I don't recommend marriage counselors lightly: have been to several that are terribly unhelpful!) If your wife is willing to talk to him, all the better. He's great at giving couples vision for a great marriage and good at getting buy-in from the reluctant spouse.
He's not a miracle-worker (e.g. my H refused to get on board after several months of counseling), but close! The clarity I received and the work I did on myself while counseling have left me with no regrets and complete confidence that I did everything I could to save my marriage.
Worth every penny.
Melody you are right, I did try to cherry pick for some time. I think maybe I�ve misrepresented my sex life. She�s already all over me, half sleeping, I�m just following though.
Pep hopefully you haven�t left me but I think you really made the most sense. It�s crazy to think I could go six more years in the current state�what was I thinking! Instead of complaining about her, I think I�ll use this to post what�s going on and look for alternate answers. It should help me avoid DJ�s and better implement the program.
And the cycle continues....
Thursday night it all came to a head again. I asked her if we could talk after the kids go to bed and got no answer as usual. I told her I need to find a way to communicate with her that won�t make her angry and asked if we could start to fill out the LB checklist. I could tell she was already annoyed so, I said if you don�t want to that�s fine, we could just talk. She flew off the handle and started in on how she has such a hard life and it turned even worse. But not one word on things I can do better or annoying habits.
I said, I want to try to fix our marriage so we both can be happy and asked her if you don�t like my ideas what do you want to do?...no answer. Ok, do you have a plan on how we can keep our family going for the next several years?...no answer. Finally she asked do you have a plan? I do! I want to try MB, she said no! Ok plan B, if we can�t do something to repair our marriage after the kids are gone, I will divorce you. If we can't find a way to make our marriage something other than stressful and unfulfilling we will not be together forever.
She decided she is going to file for divorce this week and no point waiting years. She wants to move on and find a new husband. So, that�s the condensed version of events at my house�no real questions for anyone. I just needed to unload it somewhere.
Sorry to hear she isn't willing to work at it.
I guess I'd say cut your losses and run. She's an abusive partner who doesn't want to work on the marriage and seems to have a different view of what marriage is supposed to be (I don't want an American marriage ... what does that mean?)
She wants to move on and find a new husband. Uff-da. Good luck to that guy.
Of course I'm recommending you leave without fully understanding why your M went south. While I would imagine it could be saved it sounds like she'd rather it wouldn't.
That�s why I mentioned in my first post�freeloader/renter. She believes love should be natural and not willing to do anything for me. I think independent is an understatement in my case. It�s almost comical how sweet and far she goes out of her way for friends as she wants to keep the relationship. I�ve mentioned this many times but doesn�t register as �you�re my husband so, that�s different.�
I�ve even asked; you want to be just roommates? Ok, get a job and pay half the bills! Always with the deer in the headlights look�she�ll come back with, what for I�m married?
You�re right this is a waste of time. I need to cut my loses!
She decided she is going to file for divorce this week and no point waiting years.
Odds are she will not do this.
And then what will you do?
[/quote]Odds are she will not do this. And then what will you do?[/quote]
No idea. The only reason I've posted my story is to see if anyone had something I was missing. I've reached the end and can't force her to do counceling or even talk to me. We haven't said a word to each other since Thursday. Every couple of months we keep going through the same cycle. I'm beyond tired of it!
The only reason I've posted my story is to see if anyone had something I was missing.
Which is what?
You are at a crucible in life. A test. A trial. But, if you look at this with a different attitude, you have an opportunity. An opportunity you did not want, but an opportunity nonetheless. Everyone has these moments. You are looking at a 2-choice dilemma and you are frozen with indecision.
You have 2 undesirable options to choose from. You offered a much more beneficial option #3 to your wife, and she has shut you down (again). It's what she does. She erects a roadblock and waits to see how you will deal with it. When you do not make a choice, she claims victory. It's a bit of a sick game. Still want to play notsotuff?
You have 2 undesirable options to choose from1. A divorce and a broken home for your child.
2. A miserable, abusive, loveless marriage for 6 more years.
When I ask what you are going to do, you respond;
"No idea."If you think you are not making a choice, you'd be wrong.
"No idea" is a choice.
Some people without integrity might chose to have an affair facing your situation.
Because you are not making that choice, I see you as a man of integrity.
But, you are a fool if you think you will not be vulnerable to another female who is willing to meet your needs during the next 6 miserable years.
Remember, not choosing has been your go-to-choice thus far.
When you do that, you are still playing her game.
You are at a crucible in life. A test. A trial. But, if you look at this with a different attitude, you have an opportunity. An opportunity you did not want, but an opportunity nonetheless. Everyone has these moments. You are looking at a 2-choice dilemma and you are frozen with indecision. You have 2 undesirable options to choose from. You offered a much more beneficial option #3 to your wife, and she has shut you down (again). It's what she does. She erects a roadblock and waits to see how you will deal with it. When you do not make a choice, she claims victory. It's a bit of a sick game. Still want to play notsotuff?
You have 2 undesirable options to choose from
1. A divorce and a broken home for your child.
2. A miserable, abusive, loveless marriage for 6 more years.
When I ask what you are going to do, you respond; "No idea."
If you think you are not making a choice, you'd be wrong. "No idea" is a choice.
Some people without integrity might chose to have an affair facing your situation.
Because you are not making that choice, I see you as a man of integrity.
But, you are a fool if you think you will not be vulnerable to another female who is willing to meet your needs during the next 6 miserable years.
Remember, not choosing has been your go-to-choice thus far.
When you do that, you are still playing her game.
[t/j]Pep, I needed that. [end t/j]
I've been writing lately, just for something to do with all the thoughts in my head, and to help me to focus. It's just my mental stream-of-consciousness blabbing, but in light of Pep's post I'm going to post something I wrote in the last week or so. It's sort of an unfinished thought, but take from it what you will:
Not choosing is a choice.
�When you have to make a choice and don�t make it, that is in itself a choice.� -William James
�If you choose not to decide, you have still made a choice.� � RUSH, �Freewill�
�Life is the sum of all your choices.� � Albert Camus
Xiang Yu was a Chinese general in the third century B.C. In a battle for the city of Julu, Yu took his army across a river and once there, ordered them to sink their ships and destroy all but three days� worth of food rations, leaving his men with a choice: win the forthcoming battle against all odds, or die within three days, trapped between the walls of the city and the riverbank, with no hope of rescue.
Despite nearly overwhelming odds, Yu�s army won the battle of Julu.
Did Yu�s army win because knowing they had no other option, they threw everything they had into the battle? Would they still have won the battle if Yu had left them the option of retreat? Certainly it would be a comfort to know that if things got too bad, there would be a way out, a rescue; perhaps Yu knew that if his men realized they had an �out� it would make them too halfhearted about committing to a pitched battle.
In life, we often tell ourselves that it is good to leave our options open. People will do almost anything to avoid losing an option � closing the door on an option is experienced as a loss. We analyze situations endlessly and weigh the pros and cons�but sometimes in the interim of all that avoiding and weighing, our options � our doors � disappear.
It�s like supposing Robert Frost�s traveler was unable to make up his mind, and sat too long at the intersection of the two roads that diverged in the yellow wood, unable to commit to one path or the other. Perhaps he was waiting for someone else to make the decision for him. If he sits long enough, that may happen. Rains may come and flood one of the roads, leaving only one passable option. A construction crew may come along and close one of the roads, leaving no choice but to take the detour.
Frost writes that in choosing the road less travelled by, �that has made all the difference.� His choice, then, even one as singularly minor as choosing which road to travel, impacted his life in a profound way. If he had waited until someone else made the choice for him, then he could avoid taking responsibility for his choice. He could blame the construction crew for his travel delay.
Fear can keep us from choosing. Fear of making things worse, fear of being hurt, fear of change, fear of taking responsibility, fear of what others will think. So we don�t decide. We continue to do the same things that we have always done, with the same results, expecting that someone, somewhere, is going to sprinkle some pixie dust on us and make it all better. We wait for a construction crew to come along and close one of our roads, leaving us with no choice at all.
We are the only ones who can identify what we want and then do something about it. That applies to a decision as simple as what clothes to wear or what to eat for breakfast on any given day or as complex as what to do with our lives.
When my wife and I began our reconcilliation process, I told her that something had to die. It was either the affair, our marriage or me. If the affair didn't die, the marriage would. If the affair died, then I told her the things that would kill the marriage (additional contact with POSOM, other affairs, etc). Outside of those things that would kill my marriage, I would fight to the death to save it.
The others are right, there will be a decision made. It will be either yours or hers. MB Plan B sounds like a good option for you. Separation with no contact to let her see what divorce would look like. That means she has to provide for herself and the kids while they are with her and deal with the loss of her best friend/husband without being able to contact him except through an intermediary. That may (or may not) cause her to come out of her foggy attitude and see the world like it will be as a single mom.
Remember though, reconcilliation can happen even during or after divorce. If you leave that door open to her, she may (or may not) use it. You can only control what you do. Not what she does. For me, that was the revelation that began to change me and my decisions.
You know it�s funny�I just had a similar conversation with my daughter a few weeks ago about some high school antics. We ended the talk with Winston Churchill �You have enemies GOOD! That means you chose a side and stood for something�
I think maybe I�m painting my life in a bad light which isn�t fair to her so instead of complaining about her I think I would get more benefit from posing questions of what I�m doing. Just to clarify the �American marriage� she means in comparison to American romance movies and how lots of folks like to portray their life all hugs and kisses. Not bills, kids, and schedules�life�I�ve never said that�s what I want! I want a life that�s not child centered and needs are met. Anyway, you were right I don�t think she�ll file this week as its Thursday night and we�re at 7 days of not talking. I really don�t care and kind of enjoy the peace.
I�ve already talked to the kids about divorce and what that means will happen. But like me I know my wife will never leave the kids so I�ve been weighing a third option. TOTAL WAR! If she thinks her life is bad now soon she�ll be off the bank accounts, credit card canceled, and her car sold! I�m also thinking of having a sit down with her parents to discuss our future. That will be a huge bomb! I guess that means I�m going to stay in a loveless marriage for a few more years and divorce when it�s convenient to me. As cold as that sounds, I still want to use the MB principals but some I won�t be able to use like UA or having any of my needs met.
I know I�m very ripe to cheat on my wife and have put boundaries in place several years ago after my wife decided sex was for making babies. My father had an affair from the time I was about 2 until my senior year of high school and affairage soon after. It was so funny when they divorced and he got her classic car and half the home equity. So, I don�t go to places where females would hang out. I don�t talk about my marriage to anyone. I stay busy working 12+ hours a day and the kids plan things for us to do on weekends. I�m not foolish enough to say it can�t happen to me. I�m saying I�m a bit of a tactician and Art of War is one of my favorite books.
I know this is a plan to fail. I feel I don�t have any options left�thanks
I know this is a plan to fail.
This is her dance.
This is her music.
You are along for the ride.
Peace be with you.
But like me I know my wife will never leave the kids so I�ve been weighing a third option. TOTAL WAR! If she thinks her life is bad now soon she�ll be off the bank accounts, credit card canceled, and her car sold! I�m also thinking of having a sit down with her parents to discuss our future.
I know this is a plan to fail. I feel I don�t have any options left�thanks
notso, I wouldn't call your only option Total War. That sounds like a fit of anger.
Some of what you mentioned about shutting her off is similar to what Dr. Harley would recommend in doing a Plan B. The intent of Plan B is to keep a door open for her to return and engage in the marriage while protecting what little love you may have for her by getting away from the one thing that hurts you �. her.
Read up on Plan B if you like plans like the Art of War. It is very tactical and one that may make a difference for you. It is a good step to take instead of Plan R (revenge) prior to going to Plan D (Divorce).
Read up on Plan B if you like plans like the Art of War. It is very tactical and one that may make a difference for you. It is a good step to take instead of Plan R (revenge) prior to going to Plan D (Divorce).
I completely agree.
Plan B is honest and ethical.
Plan R is doing her dance.
Hmmm�.maybe it is resentment talking? I don�t even like being in the same room with her. Even if she hasn�t done anything, just the sight of her ?isses me off. I won�t do plan B, I�d rather divorce and be done with it. Maybe it has finally reached the end. I so wanted to keep the juggling act going a few more years. I know my last post was pretty much whining and accept that I would like to put her through the wringer. The difference is I allowed it to happen�it�s my own fault! I curse the day I ever bought those cr@p relationship books 15 years ago. Full of man blaming! and garbage about accepting your wife for who they are! I feel like such an idiot!
OMG! I�m an accomplice in the crime that is my marriage! I�ve bought into mainstream �men are stupid boys and need mothered by their wife.� WTH do I do now? I�ve tried for 3 years to use the MB way and that hasn�t worked out; if anything she�s more selfish and demanding. She�s content almost happy as I�ve quit LB and she�s been getting EN�s filled. The problems always come up if I bring up her LB behavior and EN�s I�d like to have filled, Am I really at the end of the story?...nothing left to try?
I read another thread today and it really caught me about a discarded husband. I�m NOT worried about losing my wife� I can�t stand the thought of being replaced. My children will be raised by ME. I can NOT accept the idea of another man in their lives. At dinner the other night my daughter started a conversation about �Why are we so close?� meaning me and the kids and it�s not normal to be able to talk with and go do things with your dad. She thinks maybe we�re the weird family. I told her people are busy and tend to lose sight of what�s important in life�for short term goals.
Maybe I should see if she�s willing to read my thread. It�s the same thing I�ve been saying all along but maybe it�ll be different�wishful thinking probably. I know the only end to this is separation/divorce. I just have a hard time accepting there is no alternative.
I should probably move my thread to the divorce forum and post when I pull that trigger; instead of venting for no reason. Thanks for reading my rant�it�s nice to have someone or somewhere to talk things through.
I won�t do plan B, I�d rather divorce and be done with it.
We usually recommend Plan B during divorce proceedings.
Less stress on you.
Then, 99.9999999% of the time, we recommend Plan B once the divorce is final.
You are dismissing a great tool designed to prevent stress and keep you sane.
I know...my fear is losing time with my kids or her trying to repace me while I'm several thousand miles away. The last AO she had she said she'd let me take the kids so they can finish school. I know she said that in anger and didn't mean it.
Am I sounding like I'm in left field? I know after supervising several hundred of Americas finest someone too close to the problem can't see the forest for the trees.
Am I sounding like I'm in left field?
If "left field" means lost and without a Plan, I'd say yes.
You definitely do not work the essence of "The Art Of War in the context of your marriage.
I know after supervising several hundred of Americas finest someone too close to the problem can't see the forest for the trees.
Military?
Explain to me, please.
Lost...Yes! I agree but want to self sooth thinking I have a plan. It's killing me I can't seem to find a way to solve this without breaking my family. That's a bitter pill to swollow afer years of probem solving.
Yes, I am military and have had supervised several hundred personnel. I've seen more cases of female spouses beating, cheating, and general insanity than I care to remember. Too many times I've had to hold some pore young mans hand and walk him through the councelor/divorce/child support/paying bills when he didn't deserve it and part of the working poor. Inevitably many cases of "I love her" while she's bumping ugly with some $hit bag and one case he took his own life.
That's why I say maybe I'm too close to the situation to see rationaly. I'd like to think I'm not clouded but after all stuff I've seen...hard to believe. I can't do plan B from different continents 3000 miles / $5000 airplane tickets away. Divorce with the posibility of losing my kids is unaceptable...hence self imposed limbo.
I wish Dr. Harley had a plan C.
What branch, if you don't mind saying?
That's a bitter pill to swollow afer years of probem solving.
I almost overlooked this gem.
I hear ya.
I solved other people's problems for a living too. Or. I should say I offered solutions to their problems.
When my own M fell into the toilet, I was literally on my knees with humility .... stunned by my lack of ability to wrangle the "right solution".
Like it or not notsotuff, yours is a spiritual journey.
I can't do plan B from different continents 3000 miles / $5000 airplane tickets away. Divorce with the posibility of losing my kids is unaceptable...hence self imposed limbo.
I wish Dr. Harley had a plan C.
Are you sure you understand what plan B is?
At a high level it is the following steps:
Separate from your partner where you have very little contact. You need to protect yourself from the hurt.
Provide a Plan B letter that explains the conditions that must be met before you�d consider leaving Plan B.
If you are 3000 miles away from her and your kids are with you � I think that still works. Someone more experienced on the traits of Plan B could chime in here.
Certainly if you have to fly the kids back to see her that�s a horrible option. But you�ll have that option regardless of Plan B or D.
Read more on it here ---->
When to call it quits. Did you read what he recommended for Ellen?
If it helps at all Dr. Harley recommends a man doing Plan A for 2 years before going to Plan B. Sounds like you feel you've done a solid Plan A for 3.
So you're overdue.
I�ve tried to stay aloof as no one could figure out who I am but maybe that won�t work. I talked to my kids about divorce my daughter said she would choose to stay with Mom. She was worried about how she would take care of herself�without me to do it.
My daughter is beyond smart and we talk weekly as she plans to attend Georgia Tech in the mechanical engineer program. If she stays with her mother she will not graduate high school as no American school will be available. On base it would cost $10K per year and I told her we could not afford it. As a head strong teen, should couldn�t be swayed and came back with any job would be ok.
I won�t have that on my conscious, with the other bad choices I�ve made.
I'm sure everyone has had their childrens future in mind. My Son and Daughter are my world....so, what should I do?
How old are your kids? (please remind me)
Daughter 15 and Son 12 soon to be 13 in a few days.
Daughter 15 and Son 12 soon to be 13 in a few days.
My nephew's son just turned 13.
We bought him the Rob Reiner DVD/movie "
Stand By Me". A wonderful coming of age movie about boys. Have you seen it? Great soundtrack too. Bonus!
Anywho, my DD is 23, my DS is 25.
Correction ! he is 26 almost 27 !!!Guess what?
They grow up and lead their own lives.
They make some decisions I don't like very much, but I am sure the reverse is true as well.
If your kids are the center of your life now, what are your plans for when they are no longer willing to play that role?
PS:
Son is soon going to deploy to Afghanistan.
He did not POJA that decision with me!!!!
Just another one of life's lessons ... teaching me that I am not in control of most things.
LOL
I agree as my daughter had mentioned joining the military to help pay for college...I'm not crazy about it but if she's old enough, I can't stop her. My son plans on being a leach as long as he can get away with it! In all this I'm sure you agree 12 and 15 are vastly different from 10 years later...when I can't be in control or at least guiding their decisons.
I promised them when they were born...I would not be like my father and would be by their side as long as they let me. No surrender...No retreat...always faithful!
Have you thought about emailing Dr. H?
Email your questions to Joyce Harley at mbradio@marriagebuilders.com. When your email question is chosen to be answered on the radio show, you will be notified by email directing you to listen to the rebroadcast. If you would like to consider being a caller, include your telephone number. You will be called by us to explain the procedure to you. Every caller will receive a complementary book by Dr. Harley that addresses their question.
If high school education would be a problem in the future, Clonlara's distance schooling program charges 1000 per school year, which I think is OK.
So, just an update...still not talking but she is trying to suck me back into the game. Small questions here and there. I also woke up the other day to find several photo albums on the couch...not sure what that was about? The next day she was acting nicer. I'm guessing she finally realized I'm done?
Problem is as Pep said it's still her game. I'm just too weak to gamble on her getting custody of the kids.
I saw a 20YearHistory post: Once I really came to the mental place that I only have control over my own actions and put my sole focus on myself..the world became an easier place to exist.
Does this mean I should detatch and pursue my own life�independent behavior?
How do you do this without love busting?
Does it even matter at this point?...Maybe I need to take the Alanon approach until my kids are adults?
Have you thought about emailing Dr. H?
Email your questions to Joyce Harley at mbradio@marriagebuilders.com. When your email question is chosen to be answered on the radio show, you will be notified by email directing you to listen to the rebroadcast. If you would like to consider being a caller, include your telephone number. You will be called by us to explain the procedure to you. Every caller will receive a complementary book by Dr. Harley that addresses their question.
I emailed the Harleys maybe they'll have some insight.
I emailed the Harleys maybe they'll have some insight.
Will you follow their advice if it is difficult?
I saw a 20YearHistory post: Once I really came to the mental place that I only have control over my own actions and put my sole focus on myself..the world became an easier place to exist.
Does this mean I should detatch and pursue my own life�independent behavior?
How do you do this without love busting?
Does it even matter at this point?...Maybe I need to take the Alanon approach until my kids are adults?
Notso,
That is not what the poster meant when they said they focused on themselves. IB? Heck no. It means you focus to be the best at everything you do knowing you can only control yourself and may get nothing in return. You focus on being a great H, a great father and a great person.
I emailed the Harleys maybe they'll have some insight.
Will you follow their advice if it is difficult?
Did you ever hear back from the Harleys?
I emailed the Harleys maybe they'll have some insight.
Will you follow their advice if it is difficult?
Did you ever hear back from the Harleys?
I want to thank the Harley�s for answering my email but would prefer you didn�t post the link BH. I�ve already posted enough identifying info on this board and would prefer not to have my name attached as well. Their discussion of my marriage was pretty concise�I�m kind of surprised they could glean so much from the bland email I sent.
So, their advice is to stay the course, keep using MB, and find a male sounding board�to talk problems and give me encouragement. I don�t see how that will work for the next six years but who knows..right? Maybe I need to see a doc for some happy pills as I feel every day is another day I won�t get back and I�m tired of accepting the lowest common denominator. Instead of taking a bite to the crap sandwich and passing it on�I�m forced to dine on it every day.
I don�t see having a close friend happening for two reasons.
1. Military folks don�t stay around more than a few years and I�m close to retirement. I wouldn�t trust men I work around to keep my personal info close hold. Men don�t have talks like this!
2. I don�t typically have close friends�I�ve been accused of making my family my island and that�s probably true.
Looks like the few good folks here that posted to me are about all I have.
On a positive note my DW (even using DW leaves a bitter taste) is being much nicer. She tried to fake sleep and initiate SF�I wasn�t having it! I know that just begins the selfish cycle again. Looks like I�m going to be a monk for the foreseeable future.
Notso,
Anyway I (we) can help ... I'm here. I am very aware of what you're experiencing as I experienced much of it myself. As I told you in an earlier post I thought I could tough it out. I, too, sat there thinking I could just wing it until whenever. Turns out I couldn't do it. 12 months or more of pure misery really started to affect me mentally and physically.
I empathasize. It is a crappy place to be. Your choices are tougher than mine due to logistics ... but in the end you still have choices.
Any chance you can find comfort and peace knowing the next six years is for yourself and your kids? In my case I couldn't. I wanted/needed more for myself. Pushing 50 I was starting to freak out about my rotten lot in life.
Any chance you can find something that is survivable with your spouse? Take what little crumbs are sent your way instead of turning them away? Try to make lemonade?
Right now you are on a collision course. You're building more and more resentment and it'll show on the surface somewhere ... eventually everywhere. Your kids will learn things from watching you. I'm hoping they are good things but most likely they'll experience what a poor marriage looks like and begin to adjust to that as the "norm". You know where that'll get them.
I wonder why they would tell a husband in a bad marriage with an unwilling wife to do nothing...to stay, keep implementing MB, suck it up, and find a man to talk to for the next 6-ish years.
Does this mean men trying to have a good marriage with an unwilling wife should stay until the kids are gone; then move on?
Hmmmm...more to think on.
I wonder why they would tell a husband in a bad marriage with an unwilling wife to do nothing...to stay, keep implementing MB, suck it up, and find a man to talk to for the next 6-ish years.
Does this mean men trying to have a good marriage with an unwilling wife should stay until the kids are gone; then move on?
Hmmmm...more to think on.
I think they are basing that on the fact that you have made a choice of what you are willing and not willing to do.
True Statement...I guess I'm just $crewed
True Statement...I guess I'm just $crewed
I'm not going to agree with you 100%. Like I said I think you have options. It may help to discuss them and see if a brainstorming idea will remove the "I'm screwed" option.
Honestly, a MB marriage is NOT the typical American marriage. In fact, the typical American marriage is each person makes a misguided attempt to meet their own needs for the other person and then resorts to all the love busters when that doesn't work. Trust me. I've spent my entire life in this country and can see this happening in almost every relationship. I believe this is because Americans are taught to think individualistically and in turn become very self-centered. We are told to avoid becoming dependent on anyone else (except maybe welfare - not sure how people justify that one to themselves).
The MB program seems designed to get us to stop doing all that stuff we're taught (which might be why it's so tough for some people, depending how ingrained these habits are).
So you can tell her it is not an American marriage. It's supposed to be better than an American marriage and I think it should work with any culture.
My husband is Mexican so I think some of the bad habits were pushed on him even more. So I get how there CAN be cultural barriers. Especially when other family members get involved and don't understand why we're doing this (although I look at the quality of their marriage, or divorce, and use that to justify not listening to their stubbornness).
I want to thank the Harley�s for answering my email but would prefer you didn�t post the link BH
I will not post your radio clip.
It just helps us posters to hear what Dr. H advises you so we can guide you with his advice.
Ok�BH if you think I can get new ideas from the members on how to sustain as Mrs Harley suggested non-ending plan A. Not sure why as there is no affair� please post my clip; if you�re able.
So, question to the masses on a recent conversation and observations.
Let me know what you think. Preempt this with I�m separating soon from the military and PT hasn�t been on the top of my list but I�ve got to say it�s nice not to have sore knees, back, and shoulder joints!
DW: You really could be fat like (cousin�s husband)
Me: Yes, what do you mean?
DW: So, you don�t need to do PT?
Me: Yes, but I really don�t care and I�ve been in shape for several years and I never got SF so what�s the difference?
DW: (Angry) Everything you say pisses me off!
Me: I walked away instead of the normal fight.
Can one of my wife�s needs be PA? Over the years she likes to introduce me to friends and family with isn�t he cute but I always took it as a putdown�like a child. I�m kind of confused on this as being in shape and active never got me anywhere with her but maybe gaining weight will put me even further in the crap house.
Now next thing...My wife although she refuses to work and doesn�t clean the house; she does laundry and dinner�that�s it! So, between me and the kids we clean on occasion. Now here�s where I get confused, she expects the kids to clean (I�m totally behind) but when I clean she�s pleased but quickly turns to moody. I�ve asked if me cleaning is a LB but get no feedback. I can�t stand to live in a pigsty but is me cleaning a LB?
From the years I think her EN�s in rank order are:
IC, FS, FC, RC�.maybe fifth is PA?
I know these aren�t the traditional intimate needs but this is what she tends to gravitate to. Just to add another layer of confusion, she�s quick to tell me she loves me. None of this makes sense to me!
Hello Notso,
I assume, as predicted, she didn�t file for divorce.
Mrs Harley suggested non-ending plan A. Not sure why as there is no affair
To me Plan A isn�t just for Ms affected by an affair. It�s about wooing your spouse. Doing the things you should have always been doing for her. Plan A is for life in a good marriage.
As far as your PA question � I can�t answer. You�ll have to figure that one out on your own.
This is the 2nd time you�ve brought up your W�s home life and her role. A while back you said she made a statement and I never asked if you got clarity what she meant. She said her life was so hard. Did you ever ask to understand her perspective on this? Or did you jump to your own conclusions and judgments?
she�s quick to tell me she loves me. None of this makes sense to me!
If she�s being honest when she tells you she loves you of course it makes sense. It means that what she needs from you to feel loved you are doing.
You�ve been here for a while. You�ve just listed what you felt were her ENs. But you�ve never listed yours. You�ve mentioned lack of SF and affection (hugs and kisses). What else?
Ok�BH if you think I can get new ideas from the members on how to sustain as Mrs Harley suggested non-ending plan A. Not sure why as there is no affair� please post my clip; if you�re able.
Nst,
So you�re looking for encouragement or anything that will help you sustain your M, at least until the children are grown. That�s going to be tough for us posters if you have the mindset that you�re done. Done meaning you don�t have the strength to continue to follow the MB program. You�re going to withdraw even more from your W.
I�m of the mindset you�ll drive yourself crazy and become bitter and angry. Indifference leads to depression which, mostly in men, leads to anger.
So I would like to encourage you to try. To try to not only meet your W�s needs, avoid your own lovebusters but to also continue to work with your W as best you can to get some of your needs filled.
It�s hard to understand the full context of how you got to where you are. The conversations you�ve had with her, the means by which you tried to explain to her what you�re missing in the M, etc.
Here�s a suggestion if you haven�t tried this already. Have you tried asking for one simple thing, a need to be met in a very simple way. For instance you mentioned how your W greets you when you get home �What are you doing here?�. This is a tangent but why would she say it that way? � you live there. That�s weird. Anyways I digress. Have you ever asked for something very specific that she could do that would make you happy? Something small. If you were to ask her to simply greet you when you arrived home from work with a simple �Hi honey� and give you a quick kiss or hug. Would she be willing to try?
If you two could do something as simple as that and make it routine it could be a start to new behaviors. Make that simple task a habit. Once that�s been established maybe you�d have success in asking for another.
Now while you are trying to implement that I�d like to point out something that may be helpful to you. Your last post you posted this exchange. Now maybe this was out of the ordinary for you but if this is how most of your conversations go it�s no wonder she isn�t in love with you and isn't falling all over you.
DW: You really could be fat like (cousin�s husband)
Me: Yes, what do you mean?
DW: So, you don�t need to do PT?
Me: Yes, but I really don�t care and I�ve been in shape for several years and I never got SF so what�s the difference?
DW: (Angry) Everything you say pisses me off!
Me: I walked away instead of the normal fight.
This was a pretty dysfunctional conversation and the dysfunction was yours. Your reply that you don�t care and it didn�t get you laid so why bother. I think you missed an opportunity here. You could have gotten the answer to your PA question � from her. But instead you threw out your disgust with your sex life as part of the conversation. I am not surprised she got angry � did you expect something different? In this conversation she should have walked away as she was the one trying to strike up a conversation and you took a shot at her.
DW: You really could be fat like (cousin�s husband)
Me: Yes, what do you mean?
DW: So, you don�t need to do PT?
Me: I pride myself on staying in shape. I feel good about myself and life is easier because I am. Is me being in shape something that is important to you? If I were to get fat would you love me less?
Ok�BH if you think I can get new ideas from the members on how to sustain as Mrs Harley suggested non-ending plan A. Not sure why as there is no affair� please post my clip; if you�re able.
I haven't listened to the clip yet, but if you're a husband looking at an ultra-long term Plan A, go to your doctor and get antidepressants prescribed. You are going to need an even emotional keel.
And next tip: listen to the Marriage Builders radio show daily. There's an untold amount of information you need to understand and follow, and you can't do it without that daily education and encouragement.
If you are in such a situation and don't listen to the radio show daily, there's no point posting on the forum. You might as well just go start a blog.
I wonder why they would tell a husband in a bad marriage with an unwilling wife to do nothing...to stay, keep implementing MB, suck it up, and find a man to talk to for the next 6-ish years.
Does this mean men trying to have a good marriage with an unwilling wife should stay until the kids are gone; then move on?
Hmmmm...more to think on.
Here's why: if a man is on board with Marriage Builders and implements it, there is a
very good chance his wife will eventually come around.
Keep going, press longer than you think you need, and you will probably make it.
Just be sure that what you are doing is really Marriage Builders, not "Marriage Builders as it exists in my mind." Or "moaning perpetually about problems and calling it Marriage Builders."
DW: You really could be fat like (cousin�s husband)
Me: Yes, what do you mean?
DW: So, you don�t need to do PT?
Me: Yes, but I really don�t care and I�ve been in shape for several years and I never got SF so what�s the difference?
This comment was a disrespectful judgment on your part. It hurts me to even read it.
Comments like this are a major obstacle to intimacy in your marriage.
This is not Plan A. Plan A is to eliminate disrespectful judgments.
Now next thing...My wife although she refuses to work and doesn�t clean the house; she does laundry and dinner�that�s it! So, between me and the kids we clean on occasion. Now here�s where I get confused, she expects the kids to clean (I�m totally behind) but when I clean she�s pleased but quickly turns to moody. I�ve asked if me cleaning is a LB but get no feedback. I can�t stand to live in a pigsty but is me cleaning a LB?
Don't try to settle this issue with her for now. It's a minor one compared to getting the two of you in love again. When you are in love again, you'll be able to make a new arrangement you both like.
Meantime, follow this rule: if you want it clean, clean it. If she feels something you are doing (like cleaning) is a problem, let her be the one to bring it up, and then you respond accordingly.
From the years I think her EN�s in rank order are:
IC, FS, FC, RC�.maybe fifth is PA?
I know these aren�t the traditional intimate needs but this is what she tends to gravitate to.
If the intimate emotional needs aren't at the top, that's a typical sign of Withdrawal (go review that in the basic concepts). No worries: do what you can on all fronts. TRY to arrange situations where you can spend time giving each other your undivided attention (no children, distractions, etc., i.e., a date). And meanwhile, work on being healthy and attractive and fit, talking friendly to her whenever possible, supporting the family, etc.
By the way, if intimate conversation is top of the list - that's typical for a woman. Read and review the four friends and four enemies of good conversation
daily and practice
daily.
Just to add another layer of confusion, she�s quick to tell me she loves me. None of this makes sense to me!
She probably means she's committed to remaining married to you and offering you some level of caring love. Nothing wrong with that.
DW: You really could be fat like (cousin�s husband)
Me: Yes, what do you mean?
DW: So, you don�t need to do PT?
Me: Yes, but I really don�t care and I�ve been in shape for several years and I never got SF so what�s the difference?
This comment was a disrespectful judgment on your part. It hurts me to even read it.
Comments like this are a major obstacle to intimacy in your marriage.
This is not Plan A. Plan A is to eliminate disrespectful judgments.
Start a permanent record of Disrespectful Judgments. Use Dr. Harley's worksheet for this from the Five Steps to Romantic Love workbook. Any time your wife retreats from conversation or indicates she was upset, try to figure out what your disrespectful judgment was and write it down. Ask here if you need help. Review the worksheets weekly and try to go a whole week without disrespectful judgments.
Listening to your radio show now. BTW, I've had three years of what you might call never ending Plan A.
Except that at first I sucked at most of it.
I've listened.
I reiterate my three most important suggestions:
* See your doctor and get a mild antidepressant prescribed. Tell him your marriage feels hopeless and you need to be able to keep your wits about you to do what you need to do. I said this to my doctor, and apparently a lot of people have said this to him. Dr. Harley usually recommends Wellbutrin as having a minimum of side-effects. You don't need a therapist for this; just your regular MD.
* Start listening to the Marriage Builders Radio show daily. Become a PhD-level expert in Marriage Builders. Learn the official recommendation for Marriage Builders in every situation.
* Start keeping track of your disrespectful judgments. Get the Marriage Builders workbook and make a copy of the disrespectful judgments worksheet for each week, and start filling it out for each time you slip up.
As soon as we got married she refused to have any fun with me�she�ll invite me to drink with her friends or play slot machines together but I hate it.
Did you read what you wrote here? She refuses to have fun with you yet invited you to go have some fun. What's wrong with spending time with her and her friends? That doesn't count as UA time but it may deposit some love units. And in return maybe she'd want to spend more time with you ... true UA time.
How is your UA time? Have you tried to brainstorm ideas with her so you can spend my quality time together. From your own statement I'm guessing she'd like to spend some time with you ... you just have to find something you two like to do together and do it ALOT!!!