I feel that my husband has an anger management problem.
He has done some work on getting his AOs under control, but there are times when he relapses. He has started something new that I can only describe as him "putting words in my mouth." I mentioned--calmly and without being disrespectful--that something he did/said bothered me. His response was "well, I guess I'm just a horrible husband and i'm ruining this marriage. if you think i'm so awful, why did you even marry me?" I was completely shocked by what I perceived as him blowing the situation out of proportion and making such a huge dramatic statement. Trying desperately to remain calm, I said "you are not a horrible husband, and you are not ruining our marriage, I am simply letting you know that you are doing something that hurts me. I am here for you and I love you. We can work through this together so we are both happy." His response is to mock me and tell me I am "acting so innocent." I asked him not to do that and to please control his anger. I also asked why he would make the statement about being a horrible husband. He snapped back "because you tell me!" I said "what?! did I used those exact words?" He replied "you might as well have." I tried to explain to him that if I haven't actually said those exact words, then I haven't said it. He has no right to put words in my mouth or misconstrue things I'm saying to mean things I'm not. My asking him to stop a behavior that hurts me is not saying he is a horrible husband. I have also asked him to stop "mocking me" and accusing me of playing a "saint" simply because I am trying to remain calm during his AO. His response is to simply tell me that I am making him feel like he is "messed up."

There is a lot of conflict in our past, and I'll save the novel. My primary concern is defining what love buster he is using. I try to understand his response from his point of view..as in, perhaps he is feeing like I am "attacking him" or "coming at him." Maybe I am? But there are times when I am not, and I am simply asking he stop doing something to hurt me. I have read about how to have a successful negotiation. I realize that we need to work on that. However, even when there is no AO, I can tell my husband is very very angry and doesn't take criticism/complaints well. I try my hardest not to make something a "criticism" but there are times when no matter how calmly and lovingly I mention something hurts me, he still gets defensive. He has a familial history of his mother having AOs over nothing and using guilt to get him to bend over backwards to get back in her good graces. We've identified this together, and in fact he's the one who identified it about his mother. However, no matter how many times I've pleaded with him and tried to get him leave the "baggage with his mother" out of our relationship and not look at every complaint as I'm trying to manipulate him, he won't address it. He still gets very defensive, even to the point of making statements like "I will NOT be a doormat," and "I am a grown man. If you think I'm just some little weakling you can push around and have jump at your every whim you are mistaken." I've never treated him like a door mat or done things on purpose to get a reaction. All of this behavior he is describing is not me! I remain calm despite what I perceive is his emotional maturity. Of course I could be completely wrong...but all of these "reactions of his" and "statements" are hurtful! Every time he tells me "I might as well have said" something it infuriates me! I have done really well at controlling my AO..and I will continue to do so, but it really hinders our ability to negotiate.

He is not really screaming at me or cursing...but all these other ridiculous statements and what I call "his arrogance" and "ego" every time he reminds me he's not a doormat feel just as much like lovebusters.

Is he in anger management?

Are you enrolled in the online program?

Projecting and condemnation. I'd say a disrespectful judgement.

Defensiveness definitely; in that by attacking this stops further nagging and arguments. Finally contempt due to annoying behavior this indicator that he may not care too be with you. Husband wouldn't treat someone else who he cherished that way. Therefore investigate if he's having an affair.

Graceful2b - thank you for your response.

BrainHurts - he is not in anger management, and we are not enrolled in the online program. We have however both read and discussed the Major topics from Marriage Builders. There are times when my husband is calm and agrees he has an anger problem, but when he has an AO and his emotions take over, it all goes out the window. Definitely a situation of being "temporarily insane."

On top of that...he is deployed.

Things have been good for a few months because we've been working through our shared religious belief (Christianity) to help make our marriage stronger. He has made some improvements and he has even claimed numerous times that I have "changed him" by sticking with him through the deployment, staying calm, supporting him, and being patient and understanding with his AOs. There have definitely been times that I have had AOs myself, but I have taken full responsibility right away, and tried to correct the behavior ASAP. This conflict we are dealing with right now is one of those examples. To be honest...our argument has been so "all over the place" that I don't even know what we are fighting about...but I do know that the biggest struggle I am having is when we begin arguing his anger takes over and he gets mean. Which is what is happening right now. Yesterday he got so angry about what he claims is my "finding fault" with him that he had to get get off the phone and needed time to think. I reminded him that I am not "finding fault" with him, I am just asking that he control his anger and not be hurtful. I pleaded with him to work with me calmly so we can find a solution that will make both of us happy. I am trying to utilize the POJA and successfully negotiate. I did let him get off the phone yesterday finally, but not before I asked clearly when we would talk again. He said the next day at our usual talk time. I call him at 1300 on Mondays.
So I called him today...as I said I would. No answer. I waited and called again. No answer. 30 minutes later he finally called me back. I could tell he was angry still which was not good because he was "supposed" to use the time between phone calls to think and calm down. I asked him what happened because I called at 1300 as I said I would. He blew me off and said he had to work late. I said "ok" and thought about asking if he could have emailed me to let me know he wouldn't be there for my phone call...but i didn't want to start another argument. Believe it or not..he asked what I wanted...which came off really rude...because it sounded like he didn't know why i was calling. I reminded him that yesterday he said he needed time to think and that we agreed I would call him at 1300 the next day, so I am calling as I said I would and wanted to know how he was doing. One word led to another and it was clear based on how he was talking to me that he was still angry. He kept making disrespectful judgments and accusations...asking me "why i even married him" if I thought he was "so awful" and asked me "if i could even handle the deployment" because it sounds like i can't apparently. I could feel his anger coming through again and calmly asked him to let me know when he would be ready to discuss a solution so that we are both happy in the marriage. He said I needed to apologize for the way I talked to him yesterday first. He stated he felt he was owed an apology first. I explained to him the love buster "selfish demands" and said I wasn't demanding that he let me know when he was ready to talk without anger...i was asking him, if he was ready, and if not, when would be a good time to talk and negotiate a solution so that both of our needs get met. I re-stated that i loved him very much and wanted to make the marriage work, and that i would be open to hearing what would make him happy and finding a compromise...but that nothing could be done if we were both making demands and being angry.
he kept restating that i owed him an apology first and once i apologized to him then we could move forward. Finally i got so frustrated that I said, "i cannot do that under the circumstances." I had listened to a clip last night from Joyce and Dr Harley and they talked about this very topic of what to do when your spouse makes a selfish demand..and the Dr Harley's response was say "not" and do not fulfill the request. Doing so will enable the behavior. I feel my husband is a good manipulator though because he is obviously viewing my "request" that he let me know when he is ready to talk without anger and come to a solution together as my way of making a "demand" so he is obviously countering my "demand" with a demand of his own.
He said point blank to me "well, obviously we are at a stand still."
I replied, "do you want to be at a standstill, or do you want to work together to find a solution that we are both happy with? can we not figure out a way to move forward and support each other and stop doing things that hurt each other..and find ways to help each other meet each person's ENs?" His response was to reinstate that he is owed an apology.
Then I did something that I don't know if I should have done or not...but I was frustrated and trying my hardest to follow the anger management info ive read off here. I said to him, that when he was ready to negotiate without anger a solution where both of our needs are met, i would be ready and willing. what happens is that he gives me the silent treatment...he has done so over and over. times i've tried to break the silence, he is mean to me and demands I apologize before he will talk to me anymore and move forward. so in this instance, i was trying to make it clear that the ball is in his court and that i would communicate with respect, openly, and willingly as soon as he was ready...and as soon as he managed his anger and could talk with me without having an AO or making DJs or SDs. Until then, I would not contact him. In a previous post I made, I was advised to be at a standstill with him until he got his anger under control. So, that's what I'm trying to do here.

He views it as my trying to "dominate" and "control" the situation. Clearly he does, because at the beginning of our conversation he told me that he was not going to let me "dominate" the conversation and that he feels I think I am "self-righteous" and "without fault." Plenty of times...PLENTY OF TIMES...I have admitted fault over and over and without being prodded apologized. I even apologized at the beginning of today's conversation...telling him that i am not justified in being over critical and that i am sorry...and I am also not justified in having an AO simply because he is having an AO and that retaliation for any reason is not right. Later in the conversation he accused me of never saying I'm sorry or "owning" my mistakes and I asked him if he heard me earlier in the conversation when I said clearly that I was at fault for a number of things and that I was sorry...he said point blank.."no, you never said that." These are the things that would lead me to have my own AO, because I spent quite a few minutes stating how I was at fault and apologizing...and then to have him turn around and tell me he didn't hear say it...makes me feel insanely frustrated and like he's not listening to me. I feel like i'm being "gas-lighted" almost.

Anyway..to wrap up...after I made the statement about contacting me when he was ready to working on a POJA...his reply was "WOW. it's that easy for you huh? well, I guess we won't be talking anymore." after which he said "love you" and hung up on me.

We are married. How am I supposed to interpret "I guess we won't be talking anymore" from my husband? We are not dating, we are married. I don't just go away because he doesn't want to deal with me anymore.

Worse...he will put the entire blame on me because when he says stuff like "Wow. it's that easy for you huh?" he's adding evidence into this case he's building against me that he's convinced 1) I don't love him 2) don't want to be married 3) and can't handle his deployment....when I feel everything I say is completely the opposite!!!! I tell him flat out that I love him and want to be married to him. And, if the argument is well maybe i'm doing things that show him otherwise...I also make sure to make it clear that I want to do whatever i need to do to change those things i'm doing to hurt him...and also, that I want to meet his ENs.

But my question is....how can I continue to work through his AO?? I asked him how it makes sense that his anger mis-management is hurting me, and yet before he will address it and stop hurting me, I have to apologize??

Please tell me what I'm doing wrong?? I know God asks me to love my husband even when he is acting un-lovable...but there has got to be a line where behavior travels into abuse. Would God really ask me to continue to submit to the AO of my husband and admit fault FIRST before my husband will meet my ENs??? Will my husband never be expected to address his AO, DJs, and SD???

Am I really the one who is temporarily insane?? I'm starting to feel that way.

Thank you for your reply Mustyrecord.

I have ruled out an affair based on reviewing his email, phone records, and monitoring for any other questionable behavior. There is little I can do to monitor what he is actually doing in his location overseas. We've discussed the topic together and feel we are on the same page. We adamantly oppose infidelity and are very open and in agreement about it ending our marriage.

I can see/feel the contempt from him...is it possible it could be resentment because I force him to see his faults because his faults hurt me?
The thing is, he and I have discussed....that our spouse...just like God and Jesus...love us despite our faults...as I do. I love him despite his faults...but both our marriage and our relationship with God is designed to love us in spite of our faults but help us to improve them and not hurt others by them. Is that wrong??
I constantly admit to my faults. I don't defend myself and I am very willing to do whatever I need to in order to work on my own faults. I just stress that he and I do it together in a loving atmosphere. It won't always be perfect, but defensiveness and contempt will get us nowhere. I agree that our current situation is stressful...and that perhaps we should brush everything under the rug until he gets back from deployment...but there are times like NOW when I feel compelled to remind him that its not OK to hurt me and I do not advocate enabling his hurtful behavior. DEPLOYMENT does not justify him treating me poorly and damaging our relationship anymore than his AO would justify my having an AO!
Is that wrong?

Phoenix,
Why don't you write to MB rAdio show and asks these questions of Dr Harley? They will ask you if you want to be part of a show or call you directly. Or you can send the email and ask for the response on the air w/out you. You could articulate your situation and the stand still w/your husband. It might help to have this radio recording aired because your husband could later listen to it over the air and even call in himself. Simply exposing this gaslighting might really help your husband understand and maybe even own his crazy making behavior. Dr Harley will see through it and call him on it.

You know you cannot rely on unconditional love to see you through in this marriage.

Your husbands behavior is called marital abuse. You are right in that you do not want your husband to verbally or emotionally abuse you. Its great you have set a boundary with him. You can talk when he can talk to you w/out selfish demands, disrespectful judgements or angry outbursts.

Thank you Graceful2b. I have thought of writing to Joyce and Dr Harley.
I have been reading everything I can on this website and I am in despair about what to do.
I am not happy with our standstill. I was not feeling good to have to tell my husband "I am not going to contact you again. When you are ready to negotiate a solution that makes us both happy I am ready and willing." only to have him respond "I guess it's that easy for you" all the while hearing him unconsciously accusing me of "I knew you didn't love me" and then have him end the conversation with "well I guess we won't be talking anymore."

YET I am the one sitting here wondering desperately what to do?

Should I email him? Dr Harley does say one spouse can save a marriage. Dr Harley also has advised one individual Pay to pay "particular attention to the Love Buster, disrespectful judgments, where a spouse is trying to give their spouse "constructive criticism." Marriage is no place to straighten someone out. Any effort you make to take charge, or be a leader, may be interpreted by the spouse as disrespectful. Your intentions may be pure, but if the effect is hurt feelings, so stop doing it." I am asking myself, am I doing this?? Is this what my husband is feeling when I'm asking him to address his AOs??

I feel Dr. Harley would ask me to refrain from doing anything hurtful back to my spouse despite him being hurtful to me...but we are at a standstill. I have asked him to follow a POJA with me and at minimum decided on a time that is good for him...where he is in a good place mentally to calmly find a solution that will make both of us happy. I feel I continue to try for this and get met with recriminations!! And, his continued assistance that he will not "give me what I want" until he gets an apology from me. I try to get him to understand that the POJA is not "what I want" but I may be necessary to have both of our needs met and save the marriage. I feel he would argue that the POJA is "my way" and that he would be "giving in to me/letting me dominate" by going along with it. To me it sounds crazy because I'm asking him only to work together to find a solution to both of our needs...but he views any form of agreement as concession perhaps....

So I sit here...worrying that the longer I spend not communicating...the more damage I'm doing. Should I continue to email him everyday at least to say I love him? Should I keep repeating in email that I love him and would like to discuss the POJA to meet his needs and mine? Should I just "give in" and say "I'm sorry" so he will move forward? He claims my apology is an "emotional need" and that I am not meeting it. I feel he is manipulating the point of meeting an emotional need simply to get me to apologize...but parts of Dr Harleys advice don't advocate doing something simply to make the other spouse happy especially if it hurts you.

I am so at a loss of what to do...

Email your questions to Joyce Harley at mbradio@marriagebuilders.com. When your email question is chosen to be answered on the radio show, you will be notified by email directing you to listen to the rebroadcast. If you would like to consider being a caller, include your telephone number. You will be called by us to explain the procedure to you. Every caller will receive a complementary book by Dr. Harley that addresses their question.

Thank you. I have emailed Mrs. Harley.
I appreciate everyone's help.

Happy Birthday btw BrainHurts!

Thank you!!

@phoenix
If there is one saying that I could patent it would be never try to teach a pig to sing! It wastes your time and it annoys the pig. The only way to handle your husband is to expose the gas lighting.

Kindness,gentleness and tact are your qualities, however it doesn't work on a stubborn spouse. Contact Mrs. Harley!

Thanks Mustyrecord.
I am at a loss at how to get him to see the gaslighting and take responsibility for his part in the conflict.
I spent the entire evening yesterday typing him email after email of everything I could find off the MB website in relation to our situation. I was trying to be respectful of both of our positions so I didn't do any finger pointing, I simply sent him information from the position of wanting to resolve the conflict so we both were happy. My final email was one I wrote myself and I listed out apologies for each of the love busters i was or have committed and said that I was ready and willing to find a solution that would meet both of our needs. I also mentioned the POJA.
I was surprised to get an email response from him thanking me for the emails. HOWEVER, I am incredibly disturbed about a few of the sentences he wrote. One was that he believes there is "definitely some mental abuse occurring" however he doesn't say specifically who is committing the abuse and what it is. I'm trying not not get angry about that because i feel like he is hinting at it being me considering yesterday in phone conversation he demanded an apology for the way I've been treating him and talking to him. Mind you, I've not had an AO, I've not cursed, and I've remained calm. I feel like this is yet another attempt for him to project onto me and avoid responsibility. In his mind he is the victim. The reason I say that is because he also wrote the sentence that he is "very scared" because he feels that I have "turned on him." How he is coming to the conclusion when I've been the one begging for a negotiation and a POJA and a stop to the love busters...I don't know. And lastly, he says specifically, "you know the person you married and so do I and we have no right to change that person."

Thankfully, I spoke with Joyce Harley today and have agreed to have been asked to have my phone call be used on the radio show. I am very grateful for the Harleys taking the time to talk with me.

I asked Joyce today if there was a separate guideline for dealing with spouses with mental disorders because I honestly feel like i don't know who my husband is sometimes and he's starting to warp my mind. He twists things around that I say. He flat out tells me that I never said things that I know I said...literally minutes before stating I didn't say them. When I'm calm and try to be considerate he calls me self-righteous and acting innocent. When he pushes me to have an AO or distance myself he turns around and uses my reaction as proof that I don't love him and can't handle the deployment. He demands things from me yet tells me I don't have a right to demand anything from him. He tells me that I am allowed to tell him he's not meeting an EN, but then I have to leave it alone and stop bringing it up.

I literally feel like I'm going insane...or rather, that he is insane and its rubbing off on me because I don't know which way is up. I don't know how to best describe it other than he is a master manipulator. But I don't want to believe this about my husband! I feel like there are glimmers of hope in him that he wants to be loved and he is wounded. And, I'm getting conflicting information from the Bible telling me to forgive and love even when my spouse seems unlovable...as Christ has done for us and as God does for us everyday...but that is so hard sometimes...

Disconnection not only does he your H seem afraid in his email's he appears noticeably rigid, triggered into survival mode, and yet at the same time this makes no rational sense. It's like the fear is being triggered by the memory of old trauma. IMHO H is disconnecting from you and the short emails indicates this.

I'm sorry Phoenix, but now I see you are treading in deep water.

Stop right now your attempts to 'straighten out' your husband.

As he is somewhat telling you--- he has to take responsibility towards his own actions, reactions, and so on.

Its a lovebuster for him to have you lecture to him about how he is supposed to act. He's gone into rebellion against you and the marriage.

Sure he is verbally abusing you and messing with your mind.

BE the one to stop the madness from your own side of the fence.

Stop nagging, lecturing, forwarding educational materials, begging, fussing, condemning, being the his counselor/pastor...

You have set one another off and I wait to hear from Dr Harley to help you two re-boot.

When will your call be on the show?

Phoenix
If you are still there I hope that you don't get involved with magical thinking. I have been on many different websites and what is great here, is exposing versus enabling and pity partying.

Hello all.
I am deeply worried now.
He keeps thanking me for emailing him...and he keeps saying I love you...and I'm trying to follow the "one spouse can save the marriage rule," but now you are making me wonder if I am doing the wrong thing.

His emails are short....which concerns me.

Here are the two I have gotten:

This was the first...

Thank you for all of the emails.

I have been asking God for guidance in this situation. I have been
looking into myself and what has happened over the past few days. I do
feel that there has been some mental abuse that has ac cured. I am
very scared because I feel that you turned on me and I thought that we
were headed in the right direction with our marriage. The actions over
the last few days has to stop on both sides. We have to be committed
to this marriage! You knew the person that you married and so did I,
we have no right to try and change the other person. I know that there
needs to be some compromises and I am willing to do them.

I have been asking myself what happened? Our marriage is the most
important thing to me.

I love you

This was the second...(in regards to sending him the Love Buster questionnaire and Emotional Needs questionnaire)

Thank you for taking the time to send this to me. I filled it out I
had to print it and then scan it.

I love you

He could be calling me.
He could be emailing me with more affection.
I am getting nothing other than the short emails in response to mine.
I feel no lover or affection.
I am trying to understand...I really am. And I do know what it is like to be in a state of withdrawal.
I don't really know what to do next. He is not really saying he wants to talk to me. He is not really saying what he wants to do to work things out.
He filled out the two questionnaires, but has said nothing of the POJA.
I specifically asked him what his thoughts were on everything.
I don't want to push, but I don't know if he is "waiting" for me to do something.

In the past (which was actually a few days ago) he got angry because I didn't email him during our silent treatment. For example, he will get angry at me, say he has to go or hang up on me, then when we talk next, ask me why I didn't email him to at least say I loved him.

His emotional needs questionnaire indicates he needs A LOT of all types. He definitely is a self-professed needy person as far as reassurance goes.

Our last phone conversation ended with him demanding I apologize--me saying I could not do that--him saying "well I guess we are at a stand still"--me saying that I did not want to be at a standstill and I wanted to POJA a solution that would make us both happy--him saying he wouldn't do anything further until I apologized--I telling him that I would not contact him anymore until he was ready to have a respectful discussion about finding a solution to our conflict so that both of our needs were met--and him saying "i love you" sarcastically, and hanging up on me.

It was after this conversation that I sent the emails and have been getting his short responses. He is saying things like "the marriage is the most important thing" and that he loves me and wants to find a solution.

I certainly do not want to enable bad behavior.

I am really worried now of what to do.

I am looking forward to the phone call with the Harleys and have each day forwarded them updated information as it pertains to my situation.

I have limited my communication with H to just the email forwarding of marriage building information, as well as my own words about wanting to make it work.

It feels weird to not talk each day when we usually talk. It feels weird to not get any emails from him or more affectionate communication. This is not unusual behavior from him though. He inflicts the silent treatment--will ignore my attempts at communication--then when I finally do get through, demand I prove that I love him, apologize--and explain why I didn't email or call him during the silent treatment.

I feel like i'm losing my mind.

My call will be on the show this Friday!

I would have to agree...

Thank you very much. I agree with a lot of what you are saying. I feel like I am trying to help but I can see how I would be coming off.

@mustyrecord

what are you referring to specifically when you say "magical thinking?"

also, are you saying I am enabling H and having a pity party for myself?

Magical thinking is defined as the belief that an object, action or circumstance not logically related to a course of events can influence its outcome. If I read the Bible or pray things will be better (btw I believe in God). In other words, writing more emails can, given what we know about the principles of causal relations, have any direct effect on the probability of your marriage getting better. Those who live in hope of such a romance are engaging in magical thought and behaving irrationally.

To answer your question I think that you are enabling his abuse by emailing him.

you're right. i guess what i thought was my trying to be the "one spouse" can save a marriage is magical thinking in a way.
i guess he's so good at convincing me that i really have "abused" him as he says that i'm desperately searching for ways to get back in his good graces and know he loves me. its interesting, because he seems to be acting the EXACT way that his mother treated him growing up.
i haven't replied to his emails from yesterday.
I'm a little disappointed that in the absence of emailing him, ive received no communication from him. he could have called me to even see if i'm ok.
he communicates that he wants to work it out and that he loves me, but the's not actually making any attempts unless i initiate.
AND, i'm highly disturbed that nowhere in his communication does he indicated he is interested in what would make me happy...and he offers no apologies whatsoever for his behavior. Only that I've "turned on him" and that he feels I am "mentally abusing him."
I don't know what to do, but I will stop communicating with him.
I do not want to have my head in the clouds, and it is pretty clear that love alone will not get me through this one.
Thank you so much for your input.

It seems you are going from one extreme to another. Why not simply not talk about your marital woes/problems or 'relationship talk' for now and wait for advice from Dr Harley.

You could talk/email about other stuff. Make the conversation pleasant and friendly. You know, ask how is day was. Check in. If he tries to suck you into 'relationship talk' just say that you would like to keep the conversation enjoyable and you are worried about taking the conversation in that direction---because that is the truth.

If either of you starts up trying to 'read into' what the other is saying or not saying, I'm sure both of you will start to withdrawal or be tempted to love bust. The idea is neither you or your husband want to get into the mode of trying to straighten the other out.

Yes, as you hang around here you will learn about what goes into intimate communication and what does not work!

It is very typical that one spouse comes here and is more enthusiastic about fixing the marriage. I was one of those wives too. Its a very precarious spot to be in.

Your husband probably feels he is working just as hard as you are or more, but its you who is creating the uphill battle from his point of view!

Don't worry, this situation is also typical.

Its very easy to believe our perspective is the best perspective. Learning to understand one another is how we develop and maintain marital compatability.

I'm sorry all this is going on while your husband is deployed. The situation is hard enough. I consider myself lucky because when my husband was deployed over 30 years ago, we didn't have internet. I'd have to wait 10 days between letters! These days if you don't hear back in 5 minutes it a huge cause for worry!

Anyway, I hope I didn't cause you additional worry in the sense you decided to cut all communication after I suggested you are lecturing him and he is upset by that.

It seems what Dr Harley calls "the taker" is welling up in you to protect your "giver." Probably because you have offered so much of yourself and perceived you were helping your marriage thrive in these tough times. And now your taker is in charge and upset that your husband does not appreciate it and in fact his taker is upset and in charge too! Its this dynamic that is easy to fall into when married and its this I was cautioning you to avoid. ie Taker vs Taker = lose/lose dynamic.

Think about how much fun you had when you first met and have the kind of conversations you enjoyed back then. What does your husband like to talk about? (I do appreciate your husband is not asking about how you are.) While his taker is in charge and while your taker is in charge neither of you are going to get too far. That's why I said you need help to "reboot" to go forward. I'm sure Dr Harley will be very helpful when you go on the radio.

And check out Dr Harley's "Lovebusters" book. He talks about this dynamic in detail.

Socrates was the wisest, according to the Wise men, because he was aware of his own ignorance. This is why Socrates' method is not concerned with deriving the correct answer to a question, but with exposing the ignorance of the person who takes part in a dialogue or conversation. Questions were Socrates' power. His carefully crafted and seemingly not harmful or offensive queries would lead to the eventual mental implosion of the participant. So you think you know what justice is, eh? Let me ask you a few questions.

Identifying questions that lead into power struggles is much harder to do. These questions often come in rapid succession as someone begins to escalate into a crisis. Repetition of the question is a key indicator of the intention combined with other information and body language, tone, etc. An example would be, "Why do you get to do that and I don't?" or simply an endless chain of "Why?"

Why does H take this approach? Because it works. H has success using power struggles to manipulate you into getting what he want. Your H will probably engage in power struggles to avoid doing something. Initiating power struggle is a learned behavior that seems employed by H even though he's not aware of it.

Upon reading H's email I realized that he is responsible for creating a problem, rather than identifying ways of dealing with the problem. Further emails to improve a failing marriage is futile.

Please read this thread if you haven't already done so:

What to do with an Angry Husband

In addition to what Prisca has mentioned above. Will your H listened to these?
Anger Management 101

Your husband's anger needs to be the first problem addressed. Dr. Harley makes it very clear that there is no hope for a marriage in which angry outbursts occur. If your marriage is to survive, these angry outbursts will need to be completely eliminated.

Is your husband willing to completely eliminate them? Does he blame you for his anger?

Dr. Harley on Angry Outbursts:

Hi Prisca,
My H is not responsive to attempts to identify an anger problem.
He blames me for his anger in a sense that he believes I "know" what makes him upset, and therefore he feels I should not be surprised when he gets "angry."
To paraphrase, he says he doesn't understand why I am "surprised" that he gets angry because I make him "angry" then turn around and tell him he has an "anger" problem. I try to be respectful and pleasant and say "i understand his perspective," and tell him I do not want to commit a love buster, so I ask him specifically what it is that I do that makes him angry. He tells me that I "lecture" him and act as if I don't do anything wrong. The latter accusation is because I am doing reading (like here on MB) and trying to share with him some of those ideas and practices...I remain calm while he escalates, and he interprets my "sharing" of information as lecturing him...and my calmness (and asking him not to commit DJs, SD, and AOs of his ) as my acting "innocent." You can see how this vicious cycle starts. Sometimes, the conflicts start because of an "honesty" issue he has with my job...that he has a hypersensitivity to any male interaction I may have whatsoever...even if it is simply with my boss (who is a male), customers (who may be male) and co-workers that I supervise (who may be male). No matter how much information I share about what goes on at my job...at the end of the day, I am professional and respectful...but he is convinced that men are looking at me and that I am at working forming emotional attachments when he should be the only one I want attention from. I do not "want attention" from males, but he is "convinced" that I do....even though he is not here and has no substantial evidence...he is convinced. His repeated accusations (that are often times disrespectful and demeaning to me) get overwhelming and sometimes more than I can bear. So, I get upset....and he just keeps after me. I've learned to control my AO whereas before he would "interrogate" me so badly that I would end up crying. This would make him angrier...when all I would be doing is asking him to stop being "mean" to me..cursing...using DJs, SDs, and having AOs of his own. I told him I'd tell him everything in the world and figure out a way for him to be happy and trust me...but we had to do it pleasantly and calmly. It's the anger and meanness from him that kills me.

When he doesn't feel like he's getting what he wants and his way, he starts demanding that I say I'm sorry (even if I've not really done anything wrong) and if I don't do that, then I get hung up on and get the silent treatment until I can convince him that I love him and take responsibility for what I did to make him angry.

I'm in the middle of silent treatment right now. As I mentioned in previous posts within this thread, I've emailed him all the information on POJA, successful negotiation, Lovebusters, basic concepts, etc....but have been told a number of different approaches and getting mixed signals..some say stop emailing him this stuff because i'm coming off like I'm "lecturing" him again...and trying to "fix him." So I did. He was somewhat responsive to the questionnaires...filled them out and sent them to me. He asked me if I filled mine out (which I thought was odd) and I was very nervous to send him the lovebusters questionnaire, so i just sent the emotional needs which seemed less "complaining" on my part. I have been getting "thank yous" from my emails...and he's been closing with "I love you" but for the most part, the emails have been short and rigid.

I participated this past Friday on the MB radio with Joyce and Dr. Harley. Most of the focus was on that my husband needs to not deploy..which I get, but I can't make him come home or find a new job. Right, I'm struggling with even getting communication with him. The fact is, he does not initiate contact with me. If I don't email, he doesn't contact me. And, when he does reply, its very unaffectionate and cold.

From what I've read, he does seem to be in a state of withdrawal. He has been somewhat responsive...has stated via email that this marriage "is the most important thing" to him, that he is "willing to compromise," and that he loves me. Beyond that, there is nothing else. I initially asked him to let me know when he was ready to negotiate without lovebusters...and work on a POJA. I have yet to get a response.

My biggest questions...which I don't feel I got clear direction on in my phone call with the Harleys...is, how long do I wait? Will this silent treatment go on forever? He will be gone for 6 more months. If I don't get communication from him...do I continue to email him...even if its just to say I love you??

I do not want to think "magically" as some have suggested.
I do not want to "enable" his behavior that is destructive.
I can't make him see that he has an anger management problem...or that his anger is hurting us. He has to want to face it himself.
I can't make him see that stonewalling me is hurting me. He will respond with "well what about me? what about how you're/this is hurting me." Or, he will tell me I am "playing the victim."

Truth is, every day that goes by without him showing me kindness and love is pushing me away.

I have tried to "love unconditionally" as some sources are telling me...the Christian way...love your spouse just as Jesus loves us...even when we are un-lovable...but I have to say, it is incredibly hard...and I feel its breaking my spirit.

I am trying to "do the right thing" no matter what....but with our short marital history, his leaving 3 months after our marriage and choosing to take an additional 6 months deployment after i was told he'd only be gone 6 months...we are losing our first year of marriage...and we are also in conflict...not a good recipe for success....he's causing damage that I fear is irrepairable.

I'm trying not to be resentful...but it's building up inside me.

Hi mustyrecord,
this is very interesting information. thank you for sharing.
ive stopped sending educational material (MB information) to him, sharing any advice (which he perceives as me "lecturing"), or attempting to "work on the marriage." He has responded via email with a "thank you" for sending it, but he has not acted on any of the information or agreed to negotiate with me or draft a POJA. He is not initiating much of anything. Despite stating in his email that the marriage "is the most important thing," that he is "willing to compromise," and despite closing every email with "i love you," he is not really communicating how he wants to move forward, and his emails are very short and rigid.
I'm discovering that if I don't initiate contact, he does not contact me.
I'm not really sure what the future holds, but I feel that you are right...future emails from me will prove futile.

I don't think I can get him to listen to anything right now.
He is in a state of withdrawal and will not come out.
I have no idea what he is thinking, and he will not share it with me.
He doesn't not communicate with me..won't call me, return my calls, and his email replies are very delayed and very short and rigid.
He will most certainly receive any suggestion from me that he has a "problem" that needs to be addressed incredibly negatively.

Will he listen to the clips where Dr. Harley speaks about Anger management? Dr. Harley makes it clear that "no one makes us mad".

Write the Harleys back and let them know.

Does your husband have a bad temper directed toward other sources besides you? Perhaps documenting those AO's that have nothing to do with you might demonstrate to him how he is choosing to respond to all of his frustrations with anger. Dr. Harley says that he became convinced that he had an anger problem when he found himself damaging his car to punish it for making him angry.

**edit**

Moderators note: don't disrupt this thread anymore with personal philosophies. The purpose of this forum is to assist this poster with Marriage Builders.

*edit*

I do not understand the meaning of these words mustyread. Are you copying this off the internet? It does not make sense to me. What are you trying to say?

@ grace
It isn't my wish to be booted off this invaluable site, therefore I'll with hold my personal philosophies. Sometimes it is better to walk away this includes a bad marriage.

I'm trying to follow you mustyread. I was not able to follow your insight. Sincerely wanted to understand your input and how it fit in. No attempt on my part to rally moderators to edit you. Moderators are typically trying to keep us focused on content and remind us all to keep to the MB content. In your post, the sentences appeared fragmented as though you'd cut and pasted from a website. Even your comment above is hard for me to put together. The first sentence does not appear to go together with the second sentence. You likely have a lot of insight and I am trying to comprehend your intent.

Sincerest apologies English is not my language and I am using Google translation. I am currently translating the sixth loverbuster and how it relates to phoenix, just give me some time, sorry but I don't speak English very well.

No worries mustyread. I'm impressed you are making such an effort. Now lets stop this highjack of this thread.

A little background about myself, I was born in South Africa then my parents immigrated to Israel where I worked in IDF behavioral intelligence department. Profiling motives of terrorists needless to say this task was difficult and mentally exhausting since the human mind is complicated and evil! Before going into the army I was a positive young girl; now I feel that my investigations into the human psyche has made me a cautious person.

Phoenix's H's dishonesty serves to his advantage, however he wouldn't interpret it as dishonest since that might make him feel bad about himself its far easier to sweep it all under the rug. In other words his reasoning processes are balancing his desire for personal gain against phoenix's willingness to believe in him as a good person. How is this possible and more importantly how does he deceive his wife? The answer is simple H is a calculating liar, however as weird as this is going to sound when given plenty of time to think over a problem, he is far more likely to come up with an honest answer. Remember deceit and dishonesty can be paired, this is my interpretation of the sixth love buster dishonesty. I am not a positive thinker when it comes to human relationships sincerest apologies to MB moderators.

...wow. A "calculated liar?"

Mustyrecord...I am impressed with your background/credentials--provided that the only thing we have are words on this forum and therefore that is what we have to take at face value to be true--I find myself a very cautious person as well.

No doubt that my H has a very tumultuous familial and relationship history...added to it, an incredible military background--incredible translates to "extensive mental and physical conditioning"--and has been diagnosed with PTSD.

I am not one to back away from "work" or a challenge, and I am not easily swayed by adversity--I have a military background of my own--but I have to say that "freezing"/silent treatment/stonewalling--or whatever you want to call "not contacting your spouse" does not go over well with me.

The fact remains, that I have clearly communicated my willingness to pursue a FILSIL plan, POJA, and anything else that might save the marriage. I have completed my emotional needs questionnaire as well as fully admitted my faults, made apologies for my lovebusters, and communicated my willingness to take responsibility for what i'm doing to cause conflict.

YET, despite all of this...and despite my H's email communication (only email at this point) in response that includes such phrases as "the marriage is the most important thing," "I am willing to compromise," "I love you," there has been no attempts on his part to reconcile or initiate anything. My ATTEMPTS...get a "courteous" reply (I love you's are the closing, but the body is "rigid and cold") but nothing more.

If I do not contact him, he does not contact me.

I am at a loss...and therefore, have decided to step back and wait.

For some communication at some point? I don't know.
For divorce papers? I don't know.

The silence--ironically--speaks volumes.

But, I fully believe in what everyone's saying about the anger management. I BELIEVE with all my heart he has an ANGER problem and it is INCREDIBLY misplaced upon me. I am at fault for things--FOR SURE, but not for the anger I have received from him (both active and direct as well as passive aggressive) NOR the "freezing" i am getting right now.

I am not sure what to do, so I am not doing anything. I can not imagine that I have "grovel" and "plead guilty" in order to get back in "good graces" with my husband and earn my way back into the marriage and be respected and love. THAT idea, blows my mind. I do not wish to disrespect him or complete lovebusters, and I will own up to and eradicate any that I do create. I find it hard to believe that I must continue to endure his love busters simply because what he believes ive done to him justifies them. I don't know...he is not communicating with me. I am getting nothing.

I makes me incredibly scared that he might be a calculated liar because all we have is the phone right now...and of course our memories of the 6 months we were physically together interacting before he left.

It's amazing how the world can turn upside down when you realize you have no idea who someone is..especially when they are your spouse.

Sorry for your trauma! My career in the military ended 15 years ago, therefore I am a little rusty in behavioral assessments. ***EDIT***

You certainly cannot wait 6 months. It would be detrimental to your emotional and physical health.

Tell him you need him to stop the angry outbursts. If he will not, start preparing yourself for a separation.
What you CAN do is draw a line. You do not need to tolerate his abuse simply because he doesn't see a problem.

Stand up for yourself. Don't allow him to treat you this way. Here is what Dr. Harley says you need to say to him:

Angry Outbursts Letter #1

I can tell you that me taking such a stand in my own marriage is one of the reasons I'm still married today. My husband didn't take his angry outbursts seriously until he saw that I wouldn't take it anymore and was willing to move on without him if necessary.

Stop. This does neither you nor your marriage any good.

Please read: What's Wrong with Unconditional Love?

Phoenix I really do care, since we're both passing through the same thing. What I find so valuable with Dr. Harley is his concept of how to win back a partner I find this work legendary.

Dr. Harley writes about the emotional need of physical attractiveness it as important as any of the other emotional needs, in order to identify the love busters ask yourself if you meet his emotional need for physical attractiveness. This had been an issue our marriage due to my obesity.

"Listen Buster, do you love me? Do you care at all about how I feel? If you do, you sure have a funny way of showing it! I love you and want to spend the rest of my life with you. But it sure will be unpleasant for both of us if you keep treating me this way.*Having angry outbursts, silent treatments and selfish demands* You are not doing things that I admire, you're doing things that I find disgusting!"

How is it going phoenix? Did you email him the above?

Did you read Prisca's what to do with an angry husband?

NOTHING, and Dr Harley really means Nothing can be resolved or fixed in your marriage until your DH agrees to stop the AO (Angry Outburts).
You have no marriage and no chance until he does.
I wouldn't focus or concentrate on anything else right now except that. No teaching, or emailing of emotional needs or trying to figure out why he said I love you or anything else.

Only: He needs to agree to stop the AO for life.

If he will not-calls you names or gives you more silent treatment: Go into Plan B immediately (which will be easy as he is so far away) Please read about it.

Excellent advice.

Here's your show.
Radio Clip of phoenix1699's Show

This is absolutely pointless as long as his AOs continue. NOTHING short of putting her foot down and saying "no more" has any chance of winning him at this point.

Dr. Harley on AOs:

Failing to meet an emotional need is NOT a lovebuster.
She is not at fault for his angry outbursts.

Dr. Harley doesn't usually advise that a wife spend more than 3 weeks trying to win her husband back.

Thank you Prisca for all your help.
You have given me great advice and I really appreciate you taking the time.

So what are you going to do?