So, my wife has left, not really communicating at all.
While I adore her, and want things to work out, if she needs to leave to be happy, I can deal with that.
However, she has major medical issues (using the max FSA contribution in ~8 each year), but if we are split, I can save ~150 a PAYCHECK by dropping her and changing to a high deduct plan, with HSA.
Open enrollment is typically in Oct. What I would like is advice on how to broach a written agreement that we will try to work things out, with some hard dates in it. Things like 'min weekly couple counselling sessions' and maybe 'min weekly individual counseling'. I"m not sure what else.
I have been reading on here, and MY goal is to work thru this and we continue on together and do better. I don't know her goal.
Tym, have you read enough on here to understand that the most common scenario is a couple where one spouse wants to use Dr. Harley's recommendations to save their marriage and the other does not? And that Dr. Harley has lots of specific recommendations for that scenario?
@Markos No, I haven't. I find the site difficult to navigate, so a link would be appreciated.
@MelodyLane: Complex reasons. I'd say, primarily, b/c she felt I ignored her wishes & feelings. Also, she claims it's not safe for her & our daughter b/c my 22 yr old daughter lives her w/ her 3 kids & SO, and, well, they act like small children who are around each other all the time. They play, they fight, and the 2 yr old (my granddaughter) had issues with biting and pinching.
My wife is correct that I didn't hear her. I didn't, and don't, know how to communicate with her any longer. It's also true that she doesn't know how to communicate with me. We're both wandering around lost, it seems.
@MelodyLane: Complex reasons. I'd say, primarily, b/c she felt I ignored her wishes & feelings. Also, she claims it's not safe for her & our daughter b/c my 22 yr old daughter lives her w/ her 3 kids & SO, and, well, they act like small children who are around each other all the time. They play, they fight, and the 2 yr old (my granddaughter) had issues with biting and pinching.
Can your daughter and her family move out? Will your wife come back if they move out? It sure doesn't sound like she was happy with this arrangement.
How long have you been married? How old is your youngest daughter? Did your wife take your daughter with her when she moved out? Where is your wife living now? Do you ever see her?
How long has your older daughter and family been living with you? What prompted her to move in? Was your wife consulted about this arrangement?
It's unlikely that your granddaughter's behaviour was a factor in your wife's moving out. It is more likely that she felt that you would not listen to her, and act on her complaints, and that you always sided with your older daughter, or treated the situation as if your older daughter and your wife were equals in your considerations - when they are not. Your wife should come first and only.
Could you tell us more about the "wishes and feelings" you ignored? What were they, and how long had this been going on? Why didn't you act on your wife's complaints and desires? Did this lead to fighting between you? How long had things been bad in the marriage?
I'm working on that. Since my wife has moved out, I've been able to notice issues I didn't see before.
So there will be a plan with hard dates in place very soon.
I'm trying to balance 'she needs to get the [censored] out' with 'don't feel like a [censored] grandparent'. It's not easy.
Together for about 10 yrs.
Youngest is 5 in August.
Youngest is with wife at wife's dad's.
I have seen my youngest less than 8 hrs since Jun 21 in person. Near daily video calls.
Older daughter has been here since Feb 2017, moved in after Baton Rouge Flooding - both she & I had total losses.
Consulted: Wife & I have different versions of that conversation.
About not listening. Yep, pretty damn sure you're right, 100%. But I didn't see it then.
As to wishes and feelings. God, it's been going on years, in a building mountain. At least in the last 2 years, maybe longer, we lost the ability to communicate with one another. I knew that, but I focused HARD on 'this is how you need to talk so I can hear you' w/o ever realizing I needed to figure out the same from my side.
Some major issues:
She will say 'we need to talk about something'. Sometimes she tells me the something, sometimes not. But almost never do we actually have the conversation. Either I say 'ok, lets talk' and she's not really ready, but if it's delayed, it never comes back around to actually having the conversation.
That's gone on so long, that I got into a habit of just going 'yea right' internally rather than trying to do something about it.
She also takes exception to the fact that when I'm excited (good or bad) my volume goes up. Not quite to yelling, usually, but it's more than just quiet conversation. So she will walk away, which is ok, but never come back and finish the conversation.
I'm left feeling like she isn't interested in solutions, just complaining.
I also realize this is all one sided, and I'm trying to present things as objectively as I can (not very, most likely), but it's what I have to work with at the moment.
So there will be a plan with hard dates in place very soon.
I'm trying to balance 'she needs to get the ... out' with 'don't feel like a ... grandparent'. It's not easy.
Who says these things, and under what circumstances?
And by the way, we don't like cursing on this forum.
Together for about 10 yrs.
For how long have you been legally married?
Consulted: Wife & I have different versions of that conversation.
Please explain the different versions.
Some major issues:
She will say 'we need to talk about something'. Sometimes she tells me the something, sometimes not. But almost never do we actually have the conversation. Either I say 'ok, lets talk' and she's not really ready, but if it's delayed, it never comes back around to actually having the conversation.
That's gone on so long, that I got into a habit of just going 'yea right' internally rather than trying to do something about it.
She also takes exception to the fact that when I'm excited (good or bad) my volume goes up. Not quite to yelling, usually, but it's more than just quiet conversation. So she will walk away, which is ok, but never come back and finish the conversation.
I'm left feeling like she isn't interested in solutions, just complaining.
I also realize this is all one sided, and I'm trying to present things as objectively as I can (not very, most likely), but it's what I have to work with at the moment.
After this description, I still have no idea what her complaints were about. Could you please try again to explain what she complained about? What was she unhappy about for all those years?
Legally married: Not. LA doesn't have any real common law marriage.
Different versions: I say that I spoke to her about it, and she never said it would be an issue, as long as it wasn't a perm move in.
She says I simply dictated what would happen.
Long description: Welcome to my world. I don't know either. I know that's not helpful, but it's what I have.
RE: move out dates. That's me saying that, to my daughter. I've invited my wife to part of the conversation, but she has made no answer.
Legally married: Not. LA doesn't have any real common law marriage.
Why have you never legally married?
Different versions: I say that I spoke to her about it, and she never said it would be an issue, as long as it wasn't a perm move in.
She says I simply dictated what would happen.
When you say that you "spoke to her about it", what did you say to her? Did you tell her that your daughter would be moving in? And when you say "She never said it would be an issue", did you ask her how she would feel if the family moved in? Did you explicitly ask her for her feelings? Did you give her the right to say no, she did not want that to happen? Is she correct that you simply dictated what would happen?
Long description: Welcome to my world. I don't know either. I know that's not helpful, but it's what I have.
How do you propose to address her complaints, if you don't even know what they are? What efforts did you make to find out what was making her unhappy?
RE: move out dates. That's me saying that, to my daughter. I've invited my wife to part of the conversation, but she has made no answer.
When you write in this "shorthand" style, I find it hard to understand what you are saying. How could "SHE needs to get the ...out", or "don't feel like a ....grandfather" be addressed to your daughter?
Long description: Welcome to my world. I don't know either. I know that's not helpful, but it's what I have.
If you're this lacklustre attempting to explain her complaints to us, does this reflect your efforts to improve your relationship all along? You're not putting much enthusiasm into this quest for help. Do you really want to address her complaints, so that you can have a different relationship - one in which she wants to stay, and is happy? You're not giving that impression.
Long description: Welcome to my world. I don't know either. I know that's not helpful, but it's what I have.
If you're this lacklustre attempting to explain her complaints to us, does this reflect your efforts to improve your relationship all along? You're not putting much enthusiasm into this quest for help. Do you really want to address her complaints, so that you can have a different relationship - one in which she wants to stay, and is happy? You're not giving that impression.
I'm going to take offense at this. I AM trying. But I am so thoroughly frelling confused right now, I don't even know HOW to answer some of these questions. This is why I asked for help. This kind of response totally lacks compassion, and sets me up as the bad guy.
I'm not 'the bad guy'. Doesn't mean I'm the good guy either. I sure as hell have my share of mistakes and blunders. But I'm trying to learn from them, and how to avoid them in the future, regardless of who I'm with.
I'll answer your other post in a few minutes after I've cooled off, not b/c I give a crap about YOUR responses at this point, but b/c you asked good questions and maybe someone can help me.
So, my wife has left, not really communicating at all.
While I adore her, and want things to work out, if she needs to leave to be happy, I can deal with that.
However, she has major medical issues (using the max FSA contribution in ~8 each year), but if we are split, I can save ~150 a PAYCHECK by dropping her and changing to a high deduct plan, with HSA.
Open enrollment is typically in Oct. What I would like is advice on how to broach a written agreement that we will try to work things out, with some hard dates in it. Things like 'min weekly couple counselling sessions' and maybe 'min weekly individual counseling'. I"m not sure what else.
I have been reading on here, and MY goal is to work thru this and we continue on together and do better. I don't know her goal.
This is a very odd lens through which to view your relationship - the fact that you'd save a lot of money by splitting permanently, and dropping her from your health insurance, and that you need to make a decision about whether to entice her back because the date for enrolment is approaching.
Those really are not the romantic words that women would like to hear after they leave their partner, who claims to want them back. If that were me, I'd tell you where to stick your health insurance.
Do you see the problem with your lacklustre attitude that I'm trying to identify here?
You never married her, and you certainly seem to be in what Dr Harley describes as a freeloader's relationship. I think you'll need a major change of attitude - including a commitment to marrying her, and staying together for life - to win her back, or to deserve to have her come back.
I AM committed to marrying her. I WANT to. She won't.
The insurance bit: I have to think of BOTH possible outcomes. What do I do if she stays (my preferred outcome) and what do I do if she does NOT.
Anyway, for those that don't want to crucify me, here's the answers to above questions:
Why have you never legally married?
I asked many years ago, and the following week she got increasingly ugly to me until it blew up into a HUGE fight. I even let her know (b/c she's my 3rd wife) that I was willing to enter a convenant marriage to her as that legally requires extra steps to break. I was offering it as way to let her know I'm serious about being with her for the rest of our lives. She said I was trying to trap her by wanting that.
We seperated for a short time at that point, but reconciled. I let her know I'm still willing to marry her, she just has to let me know when she's ready. She's never let me know.
When you say that you "spoke to her about it", what did you say to her? Did you tell her that your daughter would be moving in? And when you say "She never said it would be an issue", did you ask her how she would feel if the family moved in? Did you explicitly ask her for her feelings? Did you give her the right to say no, she did not want that to happen? Is she correct that you simply dictated what would happen?
That was over 6 months ago, during a very stressfull time. I don't know what exactly I said. I probably did NOT ask how she would feel about it. I probably did say "We need to let Lori & fam move in as they don't have place, is that a problem?". She DID have the right to say no, although that would have caused a MAJOR discussion at the very least. Although I probably did not state that explictly, and simply assumed she knew.
How do you propose to address her complaints, if you don't even know what they are? What efforts did you make to find out what was making her unhappy?
I try to communicate with her in the way she has requested: Text. I ask questions. I do not recieve replies. I don't know how to take corrective action that will actually help, as I don't know what she wants or needs.
Originally Posted By: Tymanthius
RE: move out dates. That's me saying that, to my daughter. I've invited my wife to part of the conversation, but she has made no answer.
When you write in this "shorthand" style, I find it hard to understand what you are saying. How could "SHE needs to get the ...out", or "don't feel like a ....grandfather" be addressed to your daughter?
Ok, total lack of communicaton on that, both ways. I don't even understand that question well enough to answer it.
Alright, so I had an outside friend look over this thread (the one who recommened the site to me).
He managed to explain some things to me that weren't clear from other users, and it helped.
Thank you for your help. Please keep helping me, because I obviously need it. I don't know if you've been here, but I'm raw and sore and everything feels like a knife at my throat. I know you weren't attacking me, logically, but it still feels like it. I can acknowledge that if you can have patience and help me move on.
These were his words, but they are true for me.
Also, I screwed up my OP - it was mostly a copy paste from a legal advice post b/c I DO need to prepare myself for however things go.
But that's not my goal. My goal is to see her smile again. Have her hair tickle my nose so I can't sleep. Laugh. Be goofy. Just see her and smile b/c she wants to be around me, and that makes ME feel amazing. And have her feel amazing around me, because I look at her that way. I still do, even now that I'm hurt, and sometimes angry.
We used to have that. We used to be able to communicate. That's why I fell for her so hard. I could talk to her. But things changed. She has medical issues that have her daily pain meds for years now. Baby was born, and that had SERIOUS issues. We both changed b/c of those things, and I don't think either of us knows who the other is any more.
And if that goal isn't achievable, then at least have her be happy moving forward, as well as taking care of myself.
But I'm lost and confused, and there's no lighthouse, no north star. Not even moss on the side of a tree.
She DID have the right to say no, although that would have caused a MAJOR discussion at the very least
So, she had a "right" to say no, but you would have punished her with an argument if she had. In reality, you backed her into a corner and she was left with no choice. This is what Dr. Harley calls a Selfish Demand.
Also, you seem to be quick tempered. Have you read anything from Dr. Harley on Angry Outbursts and Disrespectful Judgements? And learning to relax in the face of frustration?
I'm left feeling like she isn't interested in solutions, just complaining.
This is an example of a Disrespectful Judgement.
Thank you for your help. Please keep helping me, because I obviously need it. I don't know if you've been here, but I'm raw and sore and everything feels like a knife at my throat. I know you weren't attacking me, logically, but it still feels like it. I can acknowledge that if you can have patience and help me move on.
Tymanthius, you seem to have calmed a bit, so my reply may be superfluous, but try not to get so defensive. SugarCane and others who are asking you the pointed questions are among the BEST here...they understand Marriage Builder principles backwards and forwards, and will give you better advice than 99% of marriage counselors out there. If at times it seems like they're administering "tough love", it's because they've helped thousands over the years, and sometimes the people who ask for help [not saying this is you] either don't give the full story, or aren't willing to take the recommended steps to recover their marriage.
I understand that you're having a rough time in your M, we all have and for various reasons, so I can sympathize with your plight. Just understand that those helping you are doing this on their own time [they aren't paid coaches], so don't take offense or get defensive, and they'll be happy to continue giving you the best advice you can get, anywhere.
Also, you seem to be quick tempered. Have you read anything from Dr. Harley on Angry Outbursts and Disrespectful Judgements? And learning to relax in the face of frustration?
Listen to Prisca here...learning to eliminate Angry Outbursts will make your life 1000% better, in your marriage and elsewhere. I've always had a quick temper, and made the mistake of having AOs to my wife and others. Huge lovebuster. Eliminating them in my own life has made me a much calmer and more patient person, and it was easier to overcome than I thought possible.
Does someone have the link handy to Dr. Harley's show on overcoming AOs?
@Prisca
RE 'MAJOR discussion'. The situation was that we were in the Baton Rouge Flooding. There was NO housing to be had, an entire town went under water, plus huge parts of several others. Natural disaster of epic levels. So, I think refusing to help my daughter would have warranted a lot more than just a 'no' and end of story. I also think that, while ideally it should have been a discussion, that we were already at a point that it would have become a fight.
But I get what you are saying about Disrepectful Judgements. I am certainly very guilty of that in many ways.
@abrrba
I hear you. Barely, I'll admit. As to full story - there's no way I'm giving it. There's so much I don't know. But I'm *trying* to give as much as I have.
I will sincerly try to listen better. I do not think of myself as quick tempered. But it is explosive once ignited. And, well, those you care about can hit your buttons faster than anyone. So I KNOW I've had Angry Outbursts, LOTS of times. I think, maybe, that would probably be the single best thing I could work on right now. Maybe. I'm in no place to judge well.
Also, if a few more explanations could be used when using terms that are familar to y'all, but not me, that would be helpful. Assum I don't know the jargon at all.
RE 'MAJOR discussion'. The situation was that we were in the Baton Rouge Flooding. There was NO housing to be had, an entire town went under water, plus huge parts of several others. Natural disaster of epic levels. So, I think refusing to help my daughter would have warranted a lot more than just a 'no' and end of story. I also think that, while ideally it should have been a discussion, that we were already at a point that it would have become a fight.
So, she didn't really have a right to say no.
But it is explosive once ignited.
And that's one of your biggest problems. When you have an Angry Outburst, you are temporarily insane. You cannot solve your problems in your marriage as long as you reserve the right to blow up.
"First off, angry outbursts by either spouse prevents recovery. No marital problems can be solved if one spouse has even a very occasional angry outburst. Whatever the anger is related to, it makes a solution impossible."
http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2715723#Post2715723"I regard angry outbursts as the worst Love Buster. That's because it's not only physically and emotionally dangerous to the other spouse, but it completely eliminates the possibility of marital problem solving. For most couples we try to help, if they can't stop their angry outbursts, nothing else works. They can't follow the Policy of Joint Agreement and they can't follow the Policy of Undivided Attention. Without those two rules in place, there's no hope for a satisfying marriage.
So you must do everything in your power to stop all angry outbursts completely."
http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2703558#Post2703558"Early on, I came to recognize that angry outbursts are probably the most damaging thing a spouse can do in marriage. I say this in spite of my recognition that infidelity is also a very damaging behavior. But I'm often more optimistic about the recovery of a marriage that has suffered from infidelity than than recovery of a marriage that suffers from angry outbursts. The primary reason that angry outbursts just about eliminate the hope of marital happiness is that even if they are very infrequent, they prevent a couple from solving their problems because the threat always hangs over every conversation. The first guideline for marital negotiation is to make the discussion pleasant and safe, and an angry spouse fails that very first condition, making the rest of it impossible to implement. Angry spouses simply create an environment that makes it impossible to make marital adjustments. That's why I advise couples with multiple problems that include anger to overcome the anger first, and then focus on the rest of the problems later."
http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2643787#Post2643787"In some cases, I've recommended separation when one spouse doesn't take their angry outbursts seriously. For those who have not experienced physical abuse, they often feel that separation is too extreme. But I know for a fact as a clinical psychologist that angry outbursts are a form of temporary insanity, and most people who have angry outbursts cannot control what they do. In some cases, the very first angry outburst that became physical resulted in permanently injured or even death. The angry spouse has no idea that they would hurt their spouse so badly until it had already happened. Then they are grief-stricken at what took place. Angry outbursts must be completely eliminated in marriage, or the marriage is too dangerous to continue."
http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2703558#Post2703558Prisca:
How is Markos doing with his anger management program? A point we often make is that if angry outbursts are not eliminated from a marriage, no other problems can be solved.
Best wishes,
Willard F. Harley, Jr.
Thanks Prisca. I'll get on reading all of that ASAP. And I agry, outbursts are counter-productive at best. I don't need help knowing that, I need help changing my behavior.
I have a ? about the major discussion. From where I am right now, it seems as though you are saying that if an idea is presented, and the other spouse says no, then that ends it, no matter what.
Or, possibly, you are saying that b/c we were in such a bad spot, that regardless of what should have been, the de facto situation was that she felt she had no chance b/c it would have caused a fight?
Or some other option I can't even see.
Can you expand on that.
outbursts are counter-productive at best.
This is trivializing the impact of anger outbursts. They literally destroy the other person.
They control the other person by making sure the other person understands the punishment will be fierce if they have a different perspective, desire or need so the other person lives in fear of incurring your wrath.
In women, living in that situation will cause their health to break down:
When Marriage Can Hurt a Heart
Marital Strain Can Raise Risk of Death, Heart Disease
By Miranda Hitti
Marital strain is a home wrecker that can endanger the heart. So says a 10-year study of 3,000 men and women aged 18 to 77.
All participants were married or living in a "marital situation." The researchers collected data on marital discord. Health was tracked for a decade to see who developed heart disease or died of any cause during the study.
For both men and women, marital strain affected their health.
Marital Strain and the Married Couple
The worst health risk was seen in women who hushed up when conflicts arose with their spouse. They said they usually or always silenced themselves in such situations.
Those women might have thought they were keeping the peace, but they paid dearly for it. Women who kept mum in marital conflicts had four times the risk of dying during the study, compared with women who spoke their minds. Your outbursts terrify, control and destroy your wife.
I don't need help knowing that, I need help changing my behavior.
You simply stop it.
There are people on this board who realized the damage their outbursts were causing to people they loved, how insane they were during the outbursts.
Dr. Harley says that when you're angry you're literally an idiot.
Upon that realization, they just stopped their outbursts. They CHOSE to not be an idiot again.
@Sunnytimes
Trivilazation was not my attempt. However, it was deflection, which may be as bad, as it was seen as me being trivial.
As to simply stopping . . . . if it were that easy, Dr. Harley wouldn't need to help us. So, please, be more helpful as your statement sounds condescending and combative.
It really is that easy.
You control your outbursts at work, and especially with your boss. You do this because you choose to do so and because you will suffer consequences if you don't.
You can also choose to do so when relating to your wife. You see, there are consequences when you have outbursts at her - but the consequences are suffered by her, not by you. It's very cruel to behave in a way that destroys your wife simply because it's not you that is suffering the consequences.
As your behavior with your boss proves, if YOU suffer the consequences, somehow you can chose to control yourself. If your wife is the one that is suffering, you can't.
Some people buy a GSR meter which measures their biometric responses and they practice making themselves upset and then remaining calm.
However, the biggest factor in not having outbursts anymore is caring enough about your wife to not inflict upon her the cruel consequences of your idiotic behavior.
That makes sense (self evident things usually do).
But why isn't it that easy? At least partially, because my boss isn't as important to me emotionally.
But that is self contradictory. Why would I blow up at someone who IS important to me? You'd think it was the other way around.
F me if I know the answers.
I"m listening guys, but I ain't even in Kindergarten yet, I don't think.
One thing . . . I don't get mad at children. I can be darn near infinitly patient with children. But when I have applied the same techniques to my wife, she feels I am treating her like a child.
So, I think I have a piece of it there. But not all of it. Maybe?
But why isn't it that easy? At least partially, because my boss isn't as important to me emotionally.
No, it's not that. It's that the consequences would be immediate if you blew up at your boss, and the consequences are greater than the satisfaction you would get if you did it.
If you lost your job every time you outbursted at your wife, you would quickly stop, right?
The consequences are there - it's just that SHE is bearing them, not you.
So the consequences not only don't affect you - they actually have a positive outcome for you in that they give you your way.
The burden/pain/destruction of the consequences are happening to her, not to you. Her only choices are to concede or to walk away.
The destruction these consequences/forced choices wreak to her health are immeasurable until she finally realizes that staying will destroy her so she has to go.
Imagine you are gluten intolerant and that every time you eat gluten your gut experiences wrenching pain that puts you rolling on the floor in acute misery.
If you eat gluten at work, you'll try to push through the shooting spears of pain without too much crying/rolling around because you don't want your colleagues to think you're a weak sissy.
Now imagine outbursting as eating YOU eating gluten but your wife receiving the pain. As you are outbursting at her, she tries to keep a stiff upper lip, not wince and not give you the gratification of seeing her overwhelming pain at your behavior.
I hear you. But I'm having trouble wrapping my head around it.
I mean, it should make sense, but it doesn't. So I need to figure out how I can manage to accept that. Not b/c it'll win her back, but b/c it's just true.
It should be easier to accept truths. Bah!!!!!
I had a terrific temper as a younger girl. I was quite proud of it. Around 5th grade I was chasing another boy with a tree branch (not just a stick) and had every intention of whacking him good.
As I chased him, I started thinking about what would happen when I whacked him - that he could actually get hurt. Beyond that, what were going to be the consequences? How much trouble would I get into?
I realized I was being an absolute idiot.
I put my branch down and walked away from the chase. On that day I became a girl without a temper. I just stopped it.
My life has been immeasurably better for not making the people I love suffer through selfish idiocy on my part.
Others on this board, Dr. Harley included, just realized one day that anger made them idiots - dangerous idiots, and they simply stopped.
I get it. And light bulbs have been going off in my head all afternoon.
But I don't change easily, or, at least haven't. And that worries me.
And it worries b/c I read some of this and I know it makes sense, but I can't seem to accept it.
Doesn't mean I'll give up, I'm stubborn too.
But I don't change easily, or, at least haven't. And that worries me.
My xH had terrible AOs. Every month or three an AO would be so severe that he would say he wished he could just leave me. It was his form of control because he knew my faith would not allow me to leave him. (Now I realize that back then I didn't understand the Bible correctly, and the Bible does allow a wife to leave an abusive husband.)
I was terrified about what would become of my many children in a single parent home (you've read the scare statistics too, I'm sure, about young men being raised by single mothers, etc.)
I was a very strong woman for many years. I was very successful in a challenging career. I would run 5 miles on my lunch hours, most days. I could outwork men in physical labor.
However, after about 23 years of this my heart developed an arrhythmia when I realized I had no hope. You would think that after hearing for all these years that he wished he could leave me, I would have believed it before then. The day I believed it was the day my health gave out. The day I knew I had to leave the marriage, or perish.
It's been several years now. My arrhythmia has not gone away. I can't run anymore - at least not more than a slow mile. I can't do mountain hikes like I used to - and I would (and still do) LIVE my life all year in great anticipation of the one week of hiking in the mountain wilderness. These hikes are the absolute highlight of my year. Yet an arrhythmia significantly limits them. I can't ride my bike like the person I used to be - loving to push myself hard. I have to pedal slowly so my heart rate doesn't rise. My workouts have to be with a very careful eye to keeping my heart rate under 80% and less than 30 minutes. My vigorous embrace of and race towards life has been severely curtailed.
Your wife is not safe to be with you until you figure this out. I would urge you not to encourage her to come back unless you have gained control of your outbursts. They are literally killing her.
My xH would often say things like what you have quoted. Or say things like "I am who I am." It was simply a demand that I continue to bear the consequences of his selfishness and demands. That I wasn't worth any of his effort to treat me with care.
I wish I could go back and have left him sooner, when I still had my health.
Your wife was right to leave you - and I hope she did it before she lost her health, too.
And you would not be right to ask her back until you can GUARANTEE herself and yourself that you will not treat her this way ever again.
I would see if she would date you for the next 6 months while you treat her with care, and prove to her that you will do nothing without her mutual enthusiasm (study POJA on this site), and establish a long track record without AO's.
While that's painful for me to read, there is a glimmer of hope. I did one thing right. I already figured out that she needed to stay away until we managed to get into a 'final solution' and not the crappy short term fixes we had been applying.
What's POJA?
Also, she is prone to angry outbursts. "I don't know if I love you" and "I'm going to leave" only she doesn't are common refrains. I can't change her, but, assuming that they are not strictly retaliatory to MY AO's, what is a viable strategy for working with that? If they are reactions, then it will be solved by me correcting my behavior.
POJA is the policy of joint agreement - nothing is done without both of your enthusiastic agreements.
No sacrificial or grudging agreements. If both are not enthusiastic then keep brainstorming other options.
You'll also want to read the articles on the Giver and the Taker that are on this site also. Often AOs are caused because your giver conceded so many times that your taker rears its ugly head and demands its way. You can protect your spouse from your taker by not overworking your giver.
POJA protects either of you from the other's demands and AOs. There are articles and quite a few threads on that topic on this site.
As for dealing with her AO's, once you clean up your side of the street we can help you with a strategy to deal with hers. If they are defensive, they will abate substantially.
Also, hopefully, if she sees how marriagebuilders has changed you, she may be interested in learning about the concepts as well.
It doesn't sound very fair, but men are physiologically stronger than women so you can endure her AO's temporarily while you are turning your marriage around with a great Plan A in a way that she cannot endure yours.
We would not advise you to endure her AOs forever, but for now I'd focus on eliminating yours.
It may take her 6 months or longer to believe your AOs are gone. This may seem like a long haul, but a wonderful marriage to a woman you love, the mother of your child, will be well worth it.
You would have to learn this anyway to have any successful relationships in the future. Why not with your wife, your child's mom?
Thanks. Yea, my short term thoughts are about 3 months right now. And, well, I can endure her not being here for 6-12 months if it means she's here for years enthusiastically.
I really am worried that I can't change properly.
We shall see. I think I'm gonna get one of the biofeedback things. Those kinds of systems help me.
You can change.
You'll have to woo her back, a changed man.
Without knowing more of the details of how bad the AOs or demands have been, it might take more of the 6 - 12 month time frame before she dares to believe the change.
Minimally, you will have some making up to do for moving your daughter in the way you did. You'll have to convince her that you'll never act without her enthusiastic agreement ever again. That you'll never put her in a place where she has to fight with a grown child, like a child, in her own home, when getting the child out was not an option. That sounds awful. That you will never put your daughter ahead of her again.
If you eliminate lovebusters (it can be done - again => just do it!) and learn to meet her needs (many articles about that on this site), you will become an irresistible husband and lover.
You'll need to become a student on this site of lovebusters, so you can identify yours (and hers) when they initially start. This will give you a plan of action to deflect any larger damage with reactions getting out of hand because you'll be able to defuse a small situation quickly.
If she does the same, you will have a marriage that is amazing beyond words.
I have a marriage like that now and I could not begin to describe how THRILLED my husband is (he tells me so constantly) or how THRILLED I am with him. Our favorite times are when we are together.
He abhors AOs. He pursues a resolution of any misunderstanding with care and tenderness. Wow, does that ever make an amazing and irresistible husband. I couldn't hurt him with an AO of mine, inconsideration or rudeness for any price.
One of the problems that Dr Harley has identified is that people who live together without being married, like you are doing now, are unwilling to put in this level of work. The lack of commitment symbolised by living together is a characteristic of the whole relationship. Each person is willing to stay together while the relationship works well, as long as they don't have to make major efforts, but they leave when the relationship is not effortless any more. That appears to be what your partner has done.
I kind of agree.
I'm willing to marry her. I'm guessing you read my bit about being willing to enter a covenant marriage? I'm more than willing to work. I just need(ed) to know the RIGHT work.
And I may have found it. only took me about 3o yrs of 'adult' relationships.
I don't know if she is. So, while I'm willing to this work because she is teh lady I want to be with, I'm also doing this b/c I believe it's the right thing to do, no matter where I end up.
Tym, you're getting superb advice here already. I want to add that perhaps this newsletter from Dr. Steven Harley may help.
Ouch! No, let me explain!
Wow.
Reading that, I finally heard the echos of some of what she's been trying to tell me.
Great! So, make some changes (keep reading the info here, as well as listen to MB radio show), and then hopefully your girlfriend can also acquire the buyer mentality.
Sugarcane in her post above is SPOT ON. If you can woo your girlfriend back, you'll need to seal your commitment with marriage vows in the near future.
Here is what Dr. Harley has to say about living together:
Living together before Marriage
Ok, so with any skill set, and that's what this is, as it requires practice, there are mistakes.
I would appreciate an exit strategy (and I'm still reading, but I can only read/listen to so much a day) for those times when I can feel the anger building.
I understand there's a choice there. But there is also long ingrained habit. I'm not sure, once I've started to get angry, that simply going "nope, not gonna be mad" will be enough.
I would think that a statement to the effect of "I'm beginning to be angry, and that is only going to cause me to do things that are counter productive and possibly hurtful. I would like to walk away until I am no longer angry." And then walk away. Would be a good idea.
But even reading that, I can see how it might come off as warning-threat, rather than just a 'I know I'm becoming a werewolf, let me put the wolf away' kind of thing.
I tend to do Plan A w/ a fallback plan. Plan A is 'choose to not be angry'. But I'm having trouble with the fallback.
Tym, have a search here and you will find a ton of articles filled with suggestions about how to stop angry outbursts forever.
Search the boards, search the articles, and also many of the posts here are filled with links to the Marriage Builders radio show where you can hear Dr. Harley regarding the topic of anger.
When you feel the anger building, focus on relaxing your body.
Let your muscles relax, make your mind relax.
I've never used one, but some posters on this board use a GSR meter to practice this and evaluate numerically how well they are doing it.
Thanks everyone. I've got reading/listening assignments. I'm working on them. I'm sure I'll be back.
This should be at the top of your listening list.
Anger Management 101