I had a great marriage. My husband and I moved our family overseas for his work recently. I temporarily quit my job to make sure our family was resettled but before I could start working again we found out I was pregnant. Rather than start working we decided it would be best for me to wait until after the birth of baby #2. Going from working full time and earning a very comfortable salary to being a stay-at-home mom was a big adjustment. I was feeling pretty undervalued.

Then we were looking for a babysitter. We met a wonderful 18 year old neighbor. She is really cute, smart, and funny. I knew my husband had a little crush on her and I thought it was cute.
Around this time I was feeling pretty bad. I was getting very fat from the pregnancy and was really just tired and run down so my husband and I weren't having sex as often as we normally do. I just didn't have the energy so he would have to take care of himself. One day I asked him if he ever thought about real people when he masterbated. I thought I could handle the truth but I was shocked when he told me that he thought of the 18 year old. It was just so hurtful to me. He thought about it because he actually wants to have sex with another person. A real person. A person that is not his wife and that lives right down the street. The reason I am not cute anymore is because I'm having his babies. I'm all bloated and gross. Then there is the fact that she is the one taking care of our child. I just thought the whole thing was completely selfish of him. How can I enjoy a night out with him knowing he can't wait to get home and see the babysitter for some ammo for later.

It's been a month and I just can't get over it. I know masterbation is normal and I don't know why I am so hurt by this. I think I'm looking for someone else to tell me if I'm being ridiculous. I don't know if it will matter or not but I need to do something. I'm so angry. I just start crying every other day. It's eating me up. I have thought about moving back to the states after Baby #2 comes and starting back at my old job so I can feel like I'm valued again and then rework on my marriage but I don't want to deny my children their father. he's such a good father. I feel like I'm kind of losing respect for myself by staying though.
Oh and my husband feels horrible about it all. He's so sorry that he hurt me and he wants to make it up to me but I don't know what he can do. He tried to show me more often how attractive he finds me but now his advances just remind me what a disgusting horndog he is. He kind of makes me sick now.

I bet he is sorry... really.

Believe me when I say it's not your size or looks, at least most mean I know would have sex with a fat whore if they aren't getting enough from their W. It's not so much of desiring for a man, but being desired. Men want to be desired as much as women, it's not just the bang, bam thank you.

On a humorous note, the medical implications of masturbating (not master baiting) are huge... blindness, hair on your palms etc. He needs to stop.

But then again, if you're ambidextrous, is that cheating?

(That's it! I'm done for tonight!)

First, I don't think it's ridiculous and neither would Dr. Harley, for what it's worth. If it bothers you when he masturbates, then he should stop doing it. According to MB principles, all of his sexual experiences should involve you. Second, I think it's way past time for you to find a different babysitter who is not so cute. After those issues are dealt with, you can work on making a plan with him for you to help him meet his sexual needs in a way that would work for you as well even in your pregnant state.

Welcome, Jamie.

Couple of things:
You need to lose the cute little babysitter from down the street. There have been so many jokes about the husband/babysitter hookup that it's cliche. Why would you invite a cute little of-age female into your home and into your close living situation? Don't tell me it's because you trust your husband. You shouldn't trust your husband to the extent of placing a nubile female in his home for any length of time.

As far as asking him what he thought about during master bation: what did you think he was going to say? That he mentally assesses the Gross National Product of Switzerland? What did you think he thought about? You should give him credit for being honest with you about his fantasy.

But my main question is: do you have some kind of prenatal medical condition that makes it impossible to please your H without calisthenics? Even, if I may be so indelicate, even to the extent of being incapable of moving your hand for a few minutes?

I'm not seeing where he said he wants to have sex with the babysitter. You said he thinks about her during his 'moments'. So don't come unhinged, thinking it's almost a done deal, this thing with the neighbor girl. However, you and your H is on a slippery slope with this fantasy. It would be very easy for the fantasy to become reality in this situation.

Lose the babysitter.
Take an afternoon nap or whatever it takes to be fairly refreshed and ready to maintain intimate relations with your husband. I suspect he's a guy who understands that your condition precludes wild swingin' sex, and I suspect that if the two of you are honest with each other about your needs, you'll be able to come up with a solution that will be agreeable to both of you and keep your M safe.

Hi Jamie, welcome to Marriage Builders. Masturbating is not cheating, but fantasizing about your teenage babysitter represents a serious threat to your marriage.

I would certainly not tell the girl, but I would keep away from her, because this could end up in an affair. There is already a sexual attraction, all that is needed is a weak moment coupled with the opportunity. I would remove that opportunity while you still have a chance.

Please do not play around here and take chances, just cut off all contact with the girl. If she is around for him to fantasize over, he won't be fantasizing about you.

Secondly, his masturbation is not good for your marriage because it decreases his desire to have sex with you.

Dr Harley's comment on this:

here

p.s. the next time you hire a babysitter, get a nice, elderly woman or a teenage boy.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that the husband sounds like a normal and caring guy, with the possible expection that he wasn't tactful in his answer about who he fantasizes about. Not sure if "radical honesty" (if I understand the use of that phrase on this forum) really works in this case.

I agree with finding a new babysitter, but only because the wife objects and her feelings matter. But the approach of doing so merely because she's attractive to someone who has expressed no intent to follow through with any action would probably shut down the student foreign exchange program, for example. More generally, it would result in serious discrimination against attractive people, as in, "I would never let my dentist husband hire an attractive assistant", etc.

They should shut down anyone who is a serious threat to the marriage. It is their job to make such discriminations if they want to avoid affairs and protect their marriage. So what if they "discriminate?" If he is attracted to certain women, then they should discuss it openly and honestly and make plans to avoid those situations. Having an attractive babysitter in the home is just such a situation.

So, this is much more than just the wife's feelings, it is about a recognized threat to the marriage. She is not having these feelings because is a nutjob, but because she rightly recognizes a threat to her marriage. A threat to marriage is to be avoided, not entertained.

Jamie, just to validate your wariness about this situation, many male affairs do begin when their wives are pregnant. I have been here for several years and have seen several affairs begin between a WH and a nanny or babysitter while the wife was pregnant.

In your case, your H has already admitted he is sexually attracted to this babysitter to the point that he masturbates and fantasizes about her. You would be CRAZY if you ignored that red flag.

So, don't let anyone convince you that you are a nutjob for being concerned, your concerns are very, very valid. Your instincts are telling you there is a problem for good reason.

Actually, his willingness to be 'Radically Honest' has probably just saved this marriage. Yes she is in pain, and he is probably kicking himself for his response, but the pain would be MUCH worse if this progressed to an affair - not saying masturbation leads to an affair, but there is a crack that has been exposed, now they can DO something about it.

How much worse would it be if he'd kept his mouth shut, and those 'innocent' fantasies progressed to more, progressed to desire, a desire the babysitter reciprocates.

Now a potential threat has been identified, and can be eliminated.

Jamie I would thank your husband for his honesty. It was probably hard for him to tell you the truth, and yet he respected you enough to do so.

Having been pregnant recently, I know that your emotions can go all over the map. What you are feeling is ok, and reasonable. I went berserk a few times on my poor DH, myself.

Find a new babysitter, and find ways to help yourself feel better about yourself. Take the time to get dressed up in the morning - it may be gone by lunchtime, but take that time. Find ways to destress, long soaks, naps, whatever you need. Get as much rest as you can. Make sure you are eating well. The baby will take what it needs first, and leave you with whatever is left over.

Don't make any life changing decisions at a time like this. Your emotions are going haywire. Calm, and focus.


There is one thing you can do, it will help rebuild what has been damaged and bring you closer together: spend time together. Ask him to set a goal to spend 15 hours EVERY WEEK with you. Date each other, court one another.


This is a disrespectful judgment. Thoughts like this will damage your marriage and damage your love for him. Was what he did right? No, but let him make up for it. If you keep holding on to these feelings, then YOU start damaging your relationship.

You need to learn to not hurt one another, and to forgive one another when unintentional hurts do arise.

Have you read the Basic Concepts here? In them is a plan to help you fall in, and stay in love with your husband.


I think you're probably all talked out about this issue.

Thank him for his honesty.
Find a new babysitter.
Make a plan to spend time with one another and meet each other's needs. Avoid hurting one another, and stop bringing this issue up. It seems like you both have spoken your piece, now it's time to let it go and heal.

Just to add: I believe it is ok to request that you be involved in all your husband's sexual activities. My DH doesn't self-pleasure. He has no need, sex is an opportunity for us to bond, to grow together. Also kinda hard to think of someone else when your spouse is right next to you. This means I have to be a willing participant whenever he wants any as he has a higher drive than I. I'm perfectly ok with that - some women aren't. If you aren't thats ok, just thought I'd mention it as an option.

I'm with Vibrissa, he did a good thing by being honest with you.

If he's left with the only option being to masturbate then his mind is going to wander to look for stimulation. If he's feeling rejected and hurt by you then its hard for him to think of you during those moments.

Is there really a reason why you can't offer him a hand? Even if it means all you do is curl up behind him when he masturbates and stroke his back and arms and whisper naughty things in his ear.

Sex should be shared, every time, but yes this means you have to be willing to share it with him, every time.

I also agree with Vibrissa that the way back from this now is to spend time with him, have fun together, if you still need to talk then let him know you're still hurting but you are working to understand his point of view and not to judge him. Read some of the threads here about men who have wives who won't have sex with them and learn about just how sad it makes them, and how it is an intense EMOTIONAL need not just a physical release.

It is really hard when confronted with something when pregnant. I found out when 6 months pregnant with our second child that my husband didn't find me attractive anymore because of my weight and was preferring to watch porn and masturbate than to make love to me. It takes time but you can heal from this and you can move past it to a much better marriage and understanding of each other.

And yes, lose the babysitter.

I think RH worked beautifully in this case. Consider her H not telling her the truth to keep from hurting her feelings. Envision what could have happened. H keeps his mouth shut. She doesn't address the master bation issue. He continues to fantasize about the babysitter...boom.

I think it's great that her H was completely honest with her and alerted her to this danger to her M. Now she can take steps to neutralize that danger.

RH is critical to a healthy marriage. Imagine a betrayed spouse not getting total honesty from their wayward because the wayward doesn't want to hurt their feelings. Same thing.

I agree with the wise women here. If you want your husband to be honest with you in the future, don't punish him for being honest. If you stop having sex with him because he told you the truth about what is going on inside his head, I can promise you that in the future he will not be honest with you about what is going on inside his head. Is that what you want? Feed the dog you want to win the fight.

Originally Posted by MelodyLane

Hi Jamie, welcome to Marriage Builders. Masturbating is not cheating, but fantasizing about your teenage babysitter represents a serious threat to your marriage.

I would certainly not tell the girl, but I would keep away from her, because this could end up in an affair. There is already a sexual attraction, all that is needed is a weak moment coupled with the opportunity. I would remove that opportunity while you still have a chance.

@ML ~
When Jamie & H tell the babysitter they will not need her services any longer, do they need to give her a reason other than, "We no longer need your services"?
When the babysitter hears the "news" and asks "why", what should they tell her?
I hope the babysitter is able to comprehend that it is not about "her".
Or, is it?
Jamie ~
Has the babysitter, IN ANY WAY, given you or your H any reason to think/feel that her motives/thoughts/feelings toward your H are not based on having a "professional babysitting relationship"?
Not that that matters...
The babysitter MUST leave.

God Bless ~

I think also that getting rid of that babysitter is a very wise move. I also think that trying to help him have his SF need met, even if you cannot comfortably do traditional intercourse, is wise as well. If a spouse does not want their spouse to masturbate, then they must step up. As a HD spouse, I can tell you that it would feel very unfair for my DH to say "I don't want to have sex with you.....oh, and you better not masturbate either."

There are ALWAYS ways to meet each others' EN's if you are creative and willing.

From pregnancy until the child is... 4 or 5?

The base biological drive is for the mother to be "all-baby, all-day." This means LB$ deposits to their husbands are not made, and LB$ deposits by their husbands often miss.

A child-focused marriage is doomed to fail, a marriage-focused family unit has better chances for success.

Look, I agree the babysitter must go. We had an attractive young woman live with us for a few months and it was h3ll for me. You are not doing your H any favors putting temptation under his nose. Even if nothing happens, he will resent the lack of sex more while she is around. Which means even if he is "good" and remains faithful, you still lose by her presence.

But in the long run, punishing him for being honest is even more of a threat to your marriage. Once you teach him that honesty gets punished, and hiding the truth works to his advantage, you will have the devil of the time UNteaching him.

**edit**

lol...been fighting with my 6 year old son to put down the seat...I guess I'll choose my battles. :-)

So...can I assume this thread has touched a nerve, americajin?

AJ-

You are closer to today's reality than you know, at least here in beknighted NY.

(Ignore for a moment the ugly nature of the example, and concentrate on the arrogance of the concept, okay?)

If I were to DRAW you a picture of an imaginary not-yet-of-age female engaging in sexual activity, and sent it to you electronically, you would have committed a felony by receiving and storing it. Yes, the legislative nannies of NY have decided that child-porn is an offense against the under-age subject of any sexual depiction - even if the subject is entirely fictional!

Our brains, considering the image, would be adjudged to have committed an offense.....against a CARTOON! Can you get your mind around THAT one?

(And my childhood fantasies about "Betty Boop"? On advice of counsel, I respectfully refuse to answer.......)

Wow, a woman who admits to this. For a lot of men, the wife's pregnancy is like 9 months of PMS. And before everyone jumps my butt about this, understand that guys DO understand that for some women, their moods or emotions run wild every month for a few days. Most learn what to say or do, or not say and do, to avoid conflict. But for some men, it is simply almost a week of verbal abuse that goes on unabated, and that is laughed off or minimized by the wife and other women. Doesn't make it right, especially year after year. Do women ever consider that men have hormones too? That an abundance of testosterone kicks the old sex drive into 5th gear? No excuse, men are just animals. We are supposed to accept that women's hormones drive their behavior at times but not accept the same for men?

I've got to assume you are drawing on experience with this, but your post puzzles me, as in "what crowd are you running with?"

I haven't met a woman yet who won't admit that pregnancy hormones are crazy, whacky things.

I also don't know any women who are shrieking banshees spouting verbal abuse for a solid week on their hapless husband.

I also don't know any women who disagree that there is an abundance of testosterone in men. Hey, it's what makes them men!

The main complaint I hear from women that I know is that their H doesn't understand what they need in the way of affection. Of course, I point those women to MB.

**edit**

A reminder that the purpose of this forum is to help posters with Marriage Builders. If you can help in that regard, please feel free to post. If not, then refrain from posting. I see this thread veering off into personal agendas and that is not going to be allowed!

Thanks for your cooperation.

I do. I knew a guy once with a wife who would also get physical and he was stupid enough to call the police. The only thing that saved his butt when he got arrested is that his friends had seen her do this more than once. Yes, in front of witnesses. We had for a long time urged him to leave her before he did see legal repercussions. At least when they got divorced they were childless. Ask the guys, MB, you haven't seen it because you aren't married to a woman and most women would not tell another that they do this. I have never had any guy ever admit that they're a child molester but I know they're out there. Although perhaps you won't find these men on Marriage Builders because they're not interested in anything more but escape.


I guess my point is that there doesn't seem to be reciprocity. I have seen women who downplay their behavior when they have their period or are pregnant and condemn men for having an active libido due to male hormones and wanting to have frequent sex.

For men who cheat during their wife's pregnancy, is it simply a matter of having no sex, or is it more how they are treated by their wife?

I won't say more because I know I'm guilty of a threadjack here and was censured for such. But I will put an email address in my signature line if folks would like to debate the finer points with me.

Let's get back on topic and keep your posts helpful to the poster!!

"I once knew a guy..." is anecdotal and is irrelevant to this poster.

If you would like to start a new thread to discuss a new topic, please do so.

Let's not disrupt this poster's thread again.

Still do. What has changed?


Undervalued by who? Has your husband said anything like this to you or is this what you feel about yourself?


Perhaps you shouldn�t ask questions you don�t really want to hear the answer to. I will say though that a lot of people fantasize, Jamie, and would never dream (pardon the pun) about acting upon it.


Perhaps this is the real problem? The �I feel undervalued� thing you�ve mentioned twice? Apparently a pretty important issue if you feel that you have to leave your husband to get a job again. And pretty hard to work on a marriage is you take the kids and leave. Perhaps we should talk about your feelings of self-worth or being devalued, which I think is the real problem.

Hopefully by looking at this from a different angle, and leaving my feelings about masturbation aside, I can engender a conversation more in line with MB principles.

She has described the real problem, which is that her husband is fantasizing about the babysitter. That is a real threat to her marriage that should be addressed and REMOVED. That is what Dr Harley would recommend.

When a spouse is attracted to a certain member of the opposite sex, the solution is to remove that member of the opposite sex, not to navel gaze about feelings of self worth. The matter of her self worth has nothing to do with the basic issue and is a distraction from the real problem.

Really, this is not a tough problem. The babysitter is a problem and the masturbation is a problem. The solution is to knock it off.

Sorry, but I don't agree. Even if she gets another babysitter, will it stop her from feeling like she is undervalued and needs to have a job to feel like herself again? She even goes as far to say she wants to leave so she can get her job back. Sounds like that issue predated the whole "I Dream of Jeannie" thing. I'm not gonna touch the maturbation thing with a ten foot pole.

I think we are concentrating on the wrong issue. But that is just my opinion, of course.

Edited to add: I guess I'll wait until she answers my reply.

Agreed.

But her failure to reward his Radical Honesty is also a problem. The best way to entice your partner not to love bust is to refrain from love busting yourself. Withholding ENs as punishment for engaging in Radical Honesty, especially after he has apologized for his love busters, is a sure way to enter into a downward spiral. To the extent that she is not enthusiastic about meeting his EN in the way he wants it met, that should trigger POJA, not flat out rejection on her part with no offer to brainstorm solutions.

Probably, but not the only thing. This isn't the only problem, and we aren't dealing with the babysitter-fantasy H here, so telling her to slap his hand and tell him to knock it off isn't that constructive, and is likely bolstering into some LB behavior.


First half, agree. Second half; not so much. More on that later.


That's like saying treating nausea caused by stomach cancer is the cure to the disease. That isn't a fix, it only addresses a single symptom, and a single possible cause.

What else could be a cause? Well, you like to toss aside the "self-worth" mention here and go after what you find offensive - the fantasy, and the self-service. Ok.

Would someone in a satisfying relationship do this? Maybe, but not likely.

Does the external stimulus (babysitter) need to go? Yes. It's a distraction, and yes a threat, to the marriage and the underlying cause.

The whole "self-worth" statement is applicable because it is contributing to a lack of intimacy. Lack of intimacy contributes to a lack of fulfillment on her H's part.

The next guess would also be a lack of O&H on the part of both spouses, though her H definitely demonstrated a huge willingness to be open and honest, even when he knew it would be potentially harmful.

Is the babysitter a problem? Yes, but more likely a symptom of other problems which must be resolved so that similar problems do not occur in the future.

It doesn't matter why she feels undervalued. What matters is that there is a threat to her marriage that should be removed. That threat is the babysitter. That is problem #1. Problem #2 is that he not only masturbates, but has sexual fantasies about the babysitter.

The solution is to remove the threat and knock off the masturbation.

What did I miss? How did she not reward his honesty? And why should she reward his honesty in the first place? Does being honest require a reward?

Probably, but not the only thing. This isn't the only problem, and we aren't dealing with the babysitter-fantasy H here, so telling her to slap his hand and tell him to knock it off isn't that constructive, and is likely bolstering into some LB behavior.[/quote]

Nope, it is not a lovebuster to ask your spouse to stop doing things that upset you - she is supposed to do that. And yes we are dealing with a babysitter fantasy here. That is part of the problem.


Any rational person in a healthy, satisifying marriage will recognize a real threat and take steps to eliminate it. In her case, the threat to the marriage is a teenage babysitter in her home whom her H has sexual fantasies about. The solution is to remove that very real threat.

If my H were sexually attracted to my cleaning lady, I would expect him to be honest about that and we would get rid of her. Protecting the marriage means you don't take such risks. You don't hang around with people to whom you are attracted.

Folks, this is not rocket science. This is Marriage Protection 101. When there is a threat to the marriage, you don't sit around and navel gaze, you simply remove the threat.


It is not a problem, though. Her recognition that the babysitter is a threat to her marriage was a wise and shrewd recognition. The problem would have been if she DIDN'T recognize the threat.

I can't agree with this. All it would take for me to feel unsafe would be if my H were fantasizing about a clear and present danger. I don't need to feel unattractive, or lacking in self-esteem (whatever the hell that means to this topic, but I digress.)

I would need to remove that danger in order to feel safe. That's what it would take. I don't need to pamper myself, or lose 10 pounds, or have someone build up my self-esteem. I would need to rid our family of the clear and present danger.

And the only way a 'similar' problem would crop up in the future would be if I were senseless enough to hire another nubile babysitter.

Dr Harley's standard advice to those who find themselves attracted to anyone outside of marriage is to RUN FOR YOUR LIFE. Just because Jamie recognized that the babysitter is a threat to her marriage does not mean she is "insecure" or whatever psychobabble term you want to put on it, but that she is WISE and smart enough to recognize a real threat.

The fact that she recognizes a very real threat does not mean she is a nut job but that she is SMART. To say that SHE is insecure for recognizing a real threat is to say that she is "insecure" when he goes drunk driving. Which would be ridiculous.

So, her concerns is not a "symptom of deeper issues" or "low self esteem" or anything else, it comes from THE WISDOM TO RECOGNIZE A REAL THREAT.


Escaping the Jaws of Infidelity: How to Avoid an Affair


And you fellas do her a grave disservice trying to convince her otherwise.

No, it doesn't, but if you'd like to see more of it, it never hurts to provide incentives.

She said she was feeling unvalued BEFORE she started looking for a babysitter.

Removing the babysitter is the right thing to do but what about the issue that was there before she hired her?

I think it very likely that her withdrawing and turning down his attempts to reconnect feels to him like a punishment. I don't remember reading where she said "wow, it must have been difficult for you to admit that. I bet you feared I would react harshly. Thank you for being brave and trusting in my love. You have reaffirmed my belief that I married the right guy." After she says something like that, I predict he would be more amendable to POJAing refraining from masturbation.


Yes, of course honesty requires a reward, or at least refraining from punishment. That is one of the central tenets of MB. Love is not unconditional. Trust must be earned. "Honesty is its own reward" is aspirational but not practical. If someone wants their spouse to be Radically Honest, even when the truth is likely to be hurtful to the listener, then I suggest the listener heartily reward the honesty. Like I said, feed the dog you want to win the fight. Many people find it unpleasant to deliver hurtful truths. There may be shame in admitting to having done a love buster. Anxiety about how the spouse will react. If the listener wants the speaker's experience, on balance, to be positive, then they should provide a reward that outweighs the shame / anxiety.

The truth is that lots of people in satisfying relationships have affairs, so I imagine that it is pretty likely that someone in a satisfying relationship might do this. There are two issues at play here; the first is constructing a satisfying relationship, which is important. But the other is taking precautions to avoid threats to the marriage.

Don't chase down the trail of thinking that she can get him to stop this behavior by better satisfying him. It is not her fault that he is doing this. It's a simple matter of independent behavior: what he is doing offends her, and if they are to have a satisfying relationship, then he will need to stop it for that reason, if for no other.

Speed reading sometimes destroys comprehension. I'll restate - you aren't dealing with the criminal, you are dealing with the victim - the approach should take it as such.

When it is communicated through either an angry outburst, selfish demand, or disrespectful judgment, it is most certainly a love buster...


Totally agree it's not rocket science. That statement is well weighted.

The fantasy is fodder to the masturbation, the masturbation is occurring because a need is not being met, these two things are symptoms of the underlying cause which is just as much a threat to the M as the symptoms.


Agreed.


Can you "agree" on this; he is looking outside his M to have a need met?

Can you "agree on this;


That the OP was not meeting her H's needs, and admits to it?

Can you "agree" that unmet emotional needs are a threat to marriage?

The "problem" you like to focus on is a symptom - no it does not excuse his actions just as much as it doesn't excuse an affair, but unmet needs - LIKELY ON BOTH SIDES - is what is going on.


You continue to take me out of context to bolster your opinion, and adding ad hominem to it isn't necessary or justified.

In the OP she states that they weren't having SF, and he began to masturbate. Is that justifiable in an MB frame? No. However, she knew he was masturbating, and "allowed" it because she felt she was unable to meet his need for SF.

None of this is a dismissal as the babysitter and his fantasies of her being a threat, however, what is stated is that there is a need being unmet.

Your solution of "fire the babysitter and slap his hand for touching himself" avoids and denies the problem of an unmet need. Yes, it addresses a threat. Yes, it addresses a problem, yet with the problem right in front of you, you are ignoring the problem of an unmet need... why? Is being "right" that important?

So, not disagreeing with ML's assessment, but adding to it, Jamie, I suggest you read here and the following articles.

What about it?

Just think how valued she would feel if her husband took this important step to protect their marriage!

its a feeling that is still standing in the way of a happy marriage for the both of them. Unless the assumption is that her feeling unvalued is what makes the two of them happy.

This is where your reasoning is going wrong. This is incorrect. Your statement here makes HER responsible for HIS deeds.

If she disapproves, the masturbation is occurring because he is not aware of or not respectful of his wife's feelings on the matter.

What you are saying is akin to saying that affairs happen because needs are not met. What do you believe the cause of affairs is?

I think they should definitely do that. But if the feeling existed before the babysitter, it doesn't seem that getting rid of the babysitter is the only thing needed.

Can you agree that many people face unmet emotional needs without engaging in Independent Behavior such as infidelity, dishonesty, or sexual activity that the mate is not enthusiastic about? Unmet emotional needs do not grab a man (or woman) and MAKE him have an affair or masturbate.

I've met a lot of people with the idea that if a woman keeps her husband satisfied he won't stray, but that idea is not Marriage Builders.

Ok, just for the sake of argument.

He apologizes profusely.
They get another babysitter. (BTW, is this a part-time or full time sitter?)
He promises never again to masturbate.
Does she perhaps tell him the truth about why she is unhappy to be a SAHM?
What should his reply be if she says I'm leaving because I miss my job and don't want to stay here with you anymore?

For OP, are you overseas because your husband is in the military?

**edit**

What ARE you talking about? No one told her to communicate my message via lovebuster, so I have no idea what this has to do with the price of tea in China..



Of course.


Maybe. Maybe not. The attraction to the babysitter may or may not be a result of unmet needs. Who is to say he wouldn't be attracted regardless? And why would we quibble over that? The bottom line is that her H should have his needs met and any person of the opposite sex to whom there is an attraction should be avoided.


You continue to take me out of context to bolster your opinion, and adding ad hominem to it isn't necessary or justified.[/quote]

But you don't support that contention so I can't respond. If someone takes your comments out of context you need to show HOW. An assertion made without suppport can be dismissed on the same basis.


So? That doesn't mean it is good for her marriage.


Agree his needs to be met.


I have not addressed the unmet need. Just because I have said to fire the babysitter and stop masturbating does not mean the unmet need is not being addressed. There is nothing wrong with you bringing that up. Just becasue I address one aspect of the situation does not mean that you CAN'T address that aspect on your own.

I have no idea what "being right" has to do with this discussion. If you want to make a point about an unmet need, simply make it. That is all you have to do. You don't have to get defensive. Really!

Probably not, but this is the immediate threat to the marriage. When the house is burning down, you put out the fire, you save quibbling over what color replacement carpet and drapes to get until after the fire is out.

Rush, have you read the Basic Concepts here? How do you feel about the Policy of Joint Agreement? What do you think about Independent Behavior?

No, that is what is being assumed by ignoring MB 101 information.

There is an unmet need, he isn't being O&H or addressing it, he "handles" the meeting of his need in a taker fashion through masturbation.


I'd prefer the OP's word on this, because she states it as a problem when she asked if he "thought of anybody else" and when he admitted it was the babysitter. She was aware of it before the revelation and was either; a) ok with it prior to the revelation, or b) not okay with it, and not being honest about it until after the revelation.

It's also assuming that he would rather masturbate than make love to his wife, who has stated she has had a problem making herself available to him.

Is it possible he would rather? Maybe. I doubt it's the case.


Do you want what I've read in SAA and the Surviving Infidelity articles, or should I submit to ad populum and regurgitate the general consensus. Sorry, had fish for FWW's birthday last night, no red herring for me today.

Markos, what should one do when you've tried the POJA and your spouse is absolutely not interested in meeting your needs?

Pick any emotional need, and tell me what the unsatisfied spouse should do if his/her spouse is not interested or objects to meeting those needs?

Dr Harley goes on about the balance between one's giver and one's taker, seems almost like you are advocating being a giver regardless if one's needs are being met or not. What should one do when you realize that your spouse is just not willing to meet your needs but only too willing to say that as part of the POJA that they do not see it your way and that asking for your way is an LB?

Rush, you are essentially asking this woman to change how she feels about the situation. This approach is doomed to failure. It is much, much easier for her husband to change his behavior than for her to change her feelings, and his behavior directly impacts her feelings. Her emotions protect her by letting her know when, perhaps, her husband has not GONE FAR ENOUGH.

Yes, it's important to encourage honesty. But she should not be required to accept his efforts if she does not feel that they go far enough.


Important warning.

She does need to make sure to not react with Love Busters. Angry Outbursts, Disrespectful Judgments, and Selfish Demands are abusive no matter what the provocation.

But this does not mean that she has to feel good about the situation.

This will be my last warning about sticking to Marriage Builders concepts and then this thread will be locked! Once again, this forum is for the discussion of Marriage Builders concepts. If you are going to post to newcomers stick to that or do not post!

In your opinion.

With your statement, you're saying that in all the world, there isn't a single couple out there who takes great pleasure in mutual masturbation...that they don't find any iota, not a single scrap, of pleasure and perhaps even "romance" in pleasing their spouse in such a manner (and perhaps sometimes not pleasing themselves).

Your concept of "romantic love" is unique in all the world, Melody...because you are a unique individual.

It is narrow minded to believe that there is truly only one definition, one manner, one "way" of defining "romantic love".

As I stated before...

She never had a problem with his masturbation from what I can tell by the language she uses....until she learned the content of it.

Only then did it bother her.

You are misunderstanding, and you are equating masturbation with mutual masturbation. It's not the physical methods used that are at issue, here.

Interesting response. I'd like to know if you know what Dr. Harley's opinion is on the subject, and if you agree or disagree. Unless I'm misunderstanding something, Dr. Harley's opinion on this specific question is the general consensus on this board.

It makes perfect sense to disagree with Dr. Harley, but it doesn't make a lot of sense to excerpt something Dr. Harley said awhile ago and try to prove that Dr. Harley doesn't believe what he openly says in several places he does believe. KWIM?

Dr. Harley's opinion on that is here:

When to Call it Quits

But you're speculating. We can't know that unless one of them tells us that.

I don't think you understand the proper context of emotional needs. Emotional needs in this context are in the context of a romantic marriage. Masturbation, ie: one sided sexual act, does nothing to meet the need of sexual fulfillment within the marriage. Just the opposite. It TAKES AWAY from the romance of the marriage and harms the intimacy. One does not have a "NEED" for sex like air or water or food. That is not a proper understanding of the emotional needs.

Emotional needs should not be met outside of marriage and that is the problem with masturbation.

**EDIT**

Rush, she is allowed to change her mind. Maybe it didn't bother her before. That is irrelevant. It bothers her now. He should stop.

On the other hand, she not meeting his need for SF. To address this, she gave him permission to masturbate as a substitute. Poor judgment on both sides, because it is highly likely that he was NOT enthusiastic about this arrangement. Most likely, he accepted it because he thought his wife was unwilling to agree to anything he found acceptable.

She should not be any more willing than he is to agree to something that lacks his enthusiasm. Maybe it takes the pressure off in the short term. But in the long term she will pay the price in lost love units.

I have to respectfully disagree. I don't provide incentives for my children to be honest, my H to be honest, my employees to be honest. Honesty is it's own reward.

No, I'll take that back. I guess the incentive to be honest is that there are so many negatives to NOT being honest. That's not under my total control, though. That's a consequence of Life.

Not that I'm unappreciative of honesty, mind you.

**EDIT**

moderators note: STOP DISRUPTING THIS THREAD!! If you are not familiar with Marriage Builders concepts, then stop posting! Do not disrupt this thread anymore!

Correct. Two separate issues that should be addressed separately.

Good grief. You missed the point, the situation presented here is not mutual masturbation or there would be no issue. Masturbation, by definition, is done alone. In the case of her husband it is done ALONE.


No, we are here to discuss Dr Harley's concept of romantic love. We all pretty much know what romantic love means.


Irrelevant. The fact is it does bother her NOW and the fact is that Dr Harley says don't do it.

Ladies and gentlemen, the original poster of this topic has posted ONE time. This thread has dissolved into a debate that is not helpful to her.

We're done here.