I'm not sure how I feel, or what I think.<P>He has been offered a position with the same co. here where I live with our 2 children.<BR>He has to give his answer today.<P>My life was so uncomplicated with him down there, 1000 miles away. He wasn't in my face, and I didn't have to deal with him.<P>Now I'm scared.<P>He said last night that moving here would make it easier and better for me.<BR>I said "it will be nice for the children to have their father close by, they have been missing you, it will be great."<BR>He said "that's not what I meant, and you haven't answered my question"<P>I wasn't aware that he had asked a question. For a couple of weeks now, he seems to have been testing the waters, so to speak. He half says things, or he says them cryptically, and my attitude to what he says is that unless he can come out and say whatever is on his mind, I don't want to hear it. If he has something to say, he will say it.<P>I know I'm supposed to be in Plan B, and **I AM**, ie, I don't call him, email him, send him stuff, or make myself available. However, he will not call at the agreed times, and I haven't been able to afford a caller ID attachment for my phone. He calls in the middle of the day, the middle of the afternoon, late at night. etc etc etc.<P>His relationship with OW #1 ended very badly, she was obviously very hurt, and I still don't know what is happening with OW #2. He swears there is nothing going on with #2. She is just a friend. Funny, I seem to have heard all that before.<P>He will still be working for the same company that these 2 other girls work at (yep, he's involved with 2 girls at work??!!!) Unbelievable.<P>I haven't said anything to him about that issue, (working for the same co. as OW) as he has not said that he is coming here to be with me, or to work on our marriage. I guess I will deal with that when/if it happens.<P>Well, that's my little bombshell for today.<BR>Any advice will be gratefully received, as per usual.!!!!!!<P>I NEED YOU GUYS........ HELP.........<P>I can almost feel the panic attack starting and I don't even get those.<BR>My palms are starting sweat, just thinking about him living in the same town, and seeing him all the time.<P>Have I just become a big conflict avoider, like he is?? That thought scares the hell out of me. <P>thanks<P>Jo

Catwoman to the rescue! <P>Wonderwoman and I will hop in her invisible plane and come to whisk you away to Zippys Safe Haven!<P>LOL just trying to make you smile! <P>Do you want him back? <P>I say:<BR>Take a deep breath and count to ten million and just wait until he gives you an answer for sure before you freak!<P>No need to waste energy about something that may not happen.<P>Hell I have such good advice I sure start charging. <P>((((((((JO!)))))))))))<P><P>------------------<BR>Cat<P>catfrommb@yahoo.com

Jo,<P>Here's my "take" ...<P>You need to decide if you are in Plan B for real or not. By this I mean: are you in "no contact" mode because you still WANT your marriage? Or do you want out?<P>It might be good to really look at what your own motives are. Plan B after Plan A is designed with two purposes in mind: 1) To force the betrayer to truly discover what life will be like without YOU - force the OW to meet all of his needs and allow him to realize just what needs YOU meet for him; and 2) To protect YOU, your self-esteem and your love for your spouse.<P>It sounds to me like he is making the only effort he may know how to make. Many people are unskilled in the areas of communicating effectively with a spouse or other loved one. They expect that we will just "know" what they mean - and most times we are simply guessing. You can help him communicate by asking him direct questions. You can help him by gently explaining to him that you are not a mind reader - that he needs to be very clear about what he wants/needs/expects this move to accomplish.<P>Do you want him back? If so, then you are going to have to be the one to do the initial work - Harley says this, Weiner-Davis says this and many other extremely effective relationship therapists say it. You cannot do the work FOR him, but you can pave the way for him to work with you.<P>I don't want to sound like I'm putting you down - I mean only to be helpful with this. You said: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>and my attitude to what he says is that unless he can come out and say whatever is on his mind, I don't want to hear it. If he has something to say, he will say it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Not to sound like a terrible sexist here, but if you wait for a man to communicate as YOU want him to without explaining in a helpful way just how that is, you will be waiting for a very long time. Bottom line is that MOST men and MOST women communicate in ways which are completely different from each other. Not only that, but often WE have conditioned them to EXPECT us to read their minds because that is what we have always tried to do. Expecting him to understand that you cannnot or do not want to do this any longer is like changing the rules and expecting him to guess what the new ones are.<P>It sounds as if he believes he is making an effort at reconciliation (just my opinion based on what you've written) - why else would it be beneficial to you for him to move to be nearby? If you say to him, "I think it will be great for the kids to have you nearby. And you say that it will be beneficial to me as well. I need you to explain to me what you mean by that. You also feel I haven't answered a question - but I didn't HEAR a question. I would be more than willing to answer your question - please ask me."<P>OK, I have rambled on long enough. To sum up, what do you want? Do you want your marriage, or do you want a divorce?<P>Sorry if this was blunt or unpleasant. I truly mean it to be helpful.<P>------------------<BR>terri<BR>I believe in miracles...<P><BR>

Hi Cat,<P>thanks for that.<P>I'm packed and waiting by the front door. My things are already on the way to Zippy's - didn't you know I've moved in with him....<P>tee hee...........<P>he didn't know either, I sort of surprised him.......<P>Oh boy, what a shock. I still don't know what to think. You're right tho, until he says or does something concrete, there's no point worrying, or wondering. I have done such a good job to date of not reading anything into what he says. Just taking everything at face value. I have to keep doing that.<P>how are you? Hope ok. Are we partying this weekend. I'm going to dinner and a movie tonight - with my sister. I'm taking the girls down the Coast to stay with my parents for the night. I'll go to the beach this afternoon, get a bit of color, and then out tonight. Tomorrow is a big study day, so that should keep my mind off him somewhat. I have assignments due starting end of next week, so I have to concentrate on that.<P>take care of you, and thanks for being there<P>Jo

Hi Terri,<P>thanks for that. You say it so succinctly.<BR>I do know what you mean about asking him direct questions, and that waiting for a man to communicate the way we would often like will make for a long wait.<P>However, for so long I asked those direct questions, only to be told "No, I don't want to work on our marriage." He was always so cold, so cruel, so indifferent, and so uncaring. I know, from here, that that was probably his way of dealing with what he was doing. Trying to push me completely away, so he didn't have to hear my voice, or deal with me. <P>Now I think I'm a little apprehensive, and scared, of asking those questions. He seems to be taking those baby steps back, and he seems to be saying things without really saying them, but any direct question from me is still met with "that's what I'm trying to work out".<P>He said that again on Sunday.<P>I havent told you guys about Sunday. He rang in the morning, extremely upset. He was sobbing, I have never heard anyone cry like that. And I was there for him. I told him that I still loved him.<BR>I don't know whether that has had a big impact on him, but he said later that his thinking is clearing a little, he is a little more focussed, and he has some direction back in his life.<BR>It was almost as if that big cry had let 'whatever' was stuck inside him - out.<P>My fear, is that he is using me as his confidante. And only that. He did say on Sunday that no-one knows him like I do. But at the end of the day, that means nothing. I don't think I can take his phone calls if he is trying to deal with his life, and sort it out, but it is a life without me in it. Does that make sense? I can't be his friend for things like that. I can co-parent with him, respect him as the father of my children, not badmouth him, still like and love him, but I can't be his best friend, if I'm not going to be his wife. I'm not strong enough for that, at least at this point.<P>I don't know if any of this is making sense. I do want to say thank you for what you wrote, and I certainly didn't take offence, or think you were blunt etc. about anything.<P>As to whether I want my marriage, I ask myself that every single day. His issues (or my issues with them) of lack of communication skills, conflict avoidance, & not being able to say sorry (direct result of his upbringing) are huge for me.<P>I just don't know if I want that type of marriage again. Where I seem to be the one dealing with all the issues, on my own.<P>It may be a bit unfair to say that, because if we do get back together again, those are obviously the primary things we need to deal with. They haven't even been discussed as yet.<P>I can feel that slow turn beginning to start. <P>Thank you so much for your input, I want to go back and reread it. You made a lot of sense, and asked some very pertinant questions.<P>thank you, and take care of you<P>Jo

Jo,<P>Now that Catwoman's been here. I guess since I'm Wonderwoman, it's my turn!! <BR>I read somewhere that you had moved in with Zippy! I hope you know that's where the party is this weekend!! <P>Just wait until he says something specific. Ignore the hints. If he wants to recommit to you, make him say it. Don't say it for him. (And don't forget to take lots of deep breaths! )<P>Might also help to buy yourself some of those bath bombs!!!<P>(((((HUGS)))))<BR>Mitzi<BR>

An update.....<P>He's just phoned again, to check and make sure that I'm ok with his moving up here.<BR>I tried to do what Terri suggested, and ask some direct questions.<P>I asked why he was moving here, and his response was to be near the children.<P>I asked AGAIN if 'I' had any bearing on his decision. He said that is one of the things he is trying to work through.<P>He also said that we had a few things that needed to be sorted out, and that he was sure I had a few things that I needed to say to him. I responded with this little gem..<P>"I have nothing that I need to say to you. What has been done, has been done, and nothing will ever change it. I have had to deal with all of this by myself, as you couldn't, or wouldn't, answer any of my questions. I had to accept a lot of things, and deal with them. I had to make my own assumptions, and draw my own conclusions. And what I came up with, was that I was not good enough for you."<P>His response was this little gem "maybe it was the other way around."<BR>When questioned he said this "maybe I wasn't good enough for you."<BR>I asked whether he felt that way because he had been fired, ie, he felt that he was no longer the provider, not worthy etc. All those male issues that are so important to their pride etc (I dont mean that condescendingly guys). He said maybe.<P>And again, cut the conversation short. Admittedly, he is at work.<P>anyway, he says it's 95% certain that he is on his way up here. He has to give his ans. today.<P>Mitzi - did you get my response to you about the bath bombs.? Email me with your address and I'll send you one. My email is <P>romsey@one.net.au<P>Thanks for your response, no, I didn't know the party was at ***our*** place. tee hee<P>does Zippy know???????<P>love and hugs to you<BR>Jo

Jo, <P>I got the response just haven't sent the email yet! <P>I guess Zippy will find out about the party when we all show up!!! LOL<P>Keep staying calm, Jo! Only say what is necessary to your hubby!!<P>Take care,<BR>Mitzi

Jo,<P>I am the betrayer in our relationship and what he is saying is things that I have felt<BR>"the I am not good enough for you" ESP after having an affair.<P>If you want him back tread VERY carefully...NO LB!! it will send him scurrying right back where he came from thinking <BR>"I knew I was bad, she will never get over it and her response just verifies what I am telling her"<P>As a betrayer..that was hard to say..he is (I would bet a bath bomb on this) feeling very guilty, conflicted, scared. Is it safe to come home, has she moved on without me? Can I go back? do I want to go back?<P>The kids are a "safe" way of saying he wants to be closer to you. Without chancing rejection. And yes he fears rejection.<P>If you want him back again be Very careful, I can fully understand the need to vent and lb but I seriously think from what you have said (and I have said the same words myself) that you have to, if he moves back and you want him back. Plan A like you have never plan A'd before.<P>Bite your tounge (or as Allen and I joke "wipe the blood from your chin honey" ) as hard as you can.<P>I would be thinking, just to pass the time, of what needs to be done for you to get back together if that is the case...POJA, rules of care, counseling etc.<P>But until then, we shall be there shortly in the invisible jet..however will you see us? <P>And we will pass the time while H decides partying at Zippys, heck lets all just pile in the jet and meet Butterfly in her hot tub!<P>((((((Jo))))))))) <BR>(LOL that is my middle name) <P><BR><P>------------------<BR>Cat<P>catfrommb@yahoo.com

Jo,<BR>After my great conversations with H. I think yours are on the same level.<P>H comment to his mother was I don't know how to talk to her. I think that is the problem they are afraid, of us. After all they have put us through H@!! and back a few times. I think he is just testing the waters. Where have I heard that before?!?<P>I know how you feel I don't want to be the one in charge again either. BUt I think it will take some gentle prodding (get that electric cattle prod out.!) To get them to say what they are trying to say.<P>If I had not ask my two questions I know he would have not said anything at all. Yes they aare big conflict avoiders. And yes we have become one too because we are afraid of what we will find out. We have been hurt too much. <P>But I think he wants you to say come on. Thaaat maybe the first step if you want him back. You have to decide.<P>{{{{{{{{{{HUGS}}}}}}}}}}<BR>love ya! Were are in this rocky boat together.<BR><P>------------------<BR>di<P>

Zippy knows NOW and is cleaning up the place for the party this weekend. So many dead bodies. Where to go with them all. Jeez. HOT TUB???? WHAT??? HOT TUB???I'M THERE!<P>Boy, this marital reconsiliation thing is like playing 21 [blackjack] with a chrome plated loaded revolver with gold inlay capable of armour piercing bullets that could take out a small army of OP's with a nasty temper. Know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em dah dah dah dah. I forget the next lines, it was a country tune, YUCK!<P>When to push your luck with your life hanging in the valance... or is it balance... I hate that! I thought valance was a curtain kindo thing. That jobby that's on the top. What's this balance. I can stand on one foot. Usually.<P>Never mind. I'm moving forward on this one. That's the way I face right?<P>AHHHHHHHHHHH Screw it! Let's do the party thing.<P>The Zipman

Remember, Butterfly said the hot tub seats seven but 14 will fit!!! Me and Catwoman have a lot of flying to do before PARTY TIME!!!!<P>Jo, we're almost there!! Just a little while longer. Make sure you got your bags packed!!!<P>Zip, Get that mess cleaned up!! We'll get you after we get Jo (Bat Girl). Then it's of to Butterfly's!!!!!!<P>Mitzi

Hey Mitzi,<P>KO, <P>Super secret squirel talk for all rightly then! We shall don the cone of silence.<P>Ever dance with the devil in the pale moon light? I just like the way it sounds.<P>I hafta go night night, I have a quota to set. Must save 8 more patients or I go on report.<P>See ya,<P>

Hugs to you Jo!<P>It is so confusing and hard! Just hang in there and think about what you really want! Think about what is good for you and your kids!<P>Just had to let you know I am thinking of you! Take good care of yourself!<P>Woozy

Hi, Jo. I spent all my time talking to Woozy and now I have to run. I'll be back though after I give this one some thought, I promise.<P>Just wanted to let you know I'm checking on you!!!!<P>You've already been given great advice. Decide what YOU want. Proceed from there.<P>Luv ya,<P>Lori

Hiya Jo,<P>Sorry I didn't get a chance to chirp in sooner. I've been away and not able to get online. Already Terri and Cat have posted some great stuff. I totally agree with both of them. Major points to emphasize:<P>1. There are all sorts of signs he'd like to come back. Not just for the kids but for you. He's also feeling incredibly guilty and vulnerable. Hence the quip about you perhaps being too good for him. Cat's right. He's in a very fragile state right now. If you zap him a few times, he may retreat since he fears rejection right now more than he fears being alone.<P>2. Do you want him back? Good question. What was life with him like before all this madness? Did you two have fun? Was it a comfy and trusting relationship? Did you share alot? How can you see this relationship progressing in the future? Is he capable of being what you need? All tough questions. The bottom line is that he'd better have an intense desire to make amends. If he only wants back because he's feeling insecure, it ain't gonna work! Take him back on YOUR terms, woman.<P>3. The gals are right. This guy says, "yup". Almost all guys have a difficult time communicating what they are feeling. We're not trained well in that way nor are there a lot of social reinforcements for being this way. No, I'm not some freak. I'm not some woman in a man's body. Thankfully, luckily, I was well-trained early-on in counselling starting 15 years ago. Yes, I'm probably more introspective than most guys. That being said, it was tough work to learn how to communicate as an equal with Suse. It's been tough to get close enough to my feelings in order to be able to articulate them. Takes practice! Most guys don't get to practice.<P>Lastly....go slow. Go real slow. One step at a time. I know it's so exciting to think of having him back. Also, scary to think he may run again. So, just go slow, Jo.<P>Anyhoo, I'll check back in the morning to see if you've written. And, if you wanna ask anything personal...feel free to write:<P>duncmac45@hotmail.com<P>------------------<BR>I'm just a pilgrim on this road, boy. 'Til I see thee... fare-thee-well. Steve Earle

Hey Guys! <BR>Well, I was beginning to wonder if you guys forgot about the Hot Tub party at my place this weekend..... The grill is ready, the tub is ready, and I've been waiting out in the tub so long for you guys to show, I'm pruny!! <P>Jo, I agree that you need to go slow. He might be wanting to come back to YOU, but is afraid to say so until he gets to test the waters in person (once he gets there). I'm not really in the right frame of mind to give advice tonight, but you are in my thoughts & prayers.<P>So, what time should I start cooking the burgers & dogs? <P> <BR>Butterfly <BR><P>------------------<BR>There are deep sorrows and killing cares in life, but the encouragement and love of friends were given us to make all difficulties bearable. <BR>-- John Oliver Holmes<P>The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference.<BR>-- Elie Wiesel<P><BR>

Jo...<P>I haven't gotten a chance to repsond to your posts very often...<P>I do whole-heartedly agree with DuncanMac! On all his points.<P>Yes... stay in <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan B</A>... and ask the biggy directly... "Are you <B>now</B> ready to give up your affair... and truly work on our marriage?" If the answer isn't an strong an resolute "Yes"... tell him... "call me when it is..." in a non-<A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3400_lovebust.html" TARGET=_blank>Love Busting</A> way.<P>Prayers for you... <P>Jim

Butterfly,<P>Catwoman and I will be there in the invisible jet as soon as we find Zip. He must be out playing ambulance! <P>Can't wait to get in the hot tub!! <P>Get those burgers started now! Times a wastin"!!!<P>Mitzi aka Wonderwoman