I am posting here a note I wrote on another relationship site from January 2010. I have begun to read Dr. Harleys works on this site. I seem to think I have been in a state of withdrawal in the marriage since August of 2009 or longer. I also do not want to reenter the M until my wife will start to share the responsibility of FS in this marriage. Currently I am refusing to show small tokens of affection until my wife starts to work. We have been intimate once over the last 15 months at my insistence. Previously in the relationship the lack of intimacy was at her insistence.

I am starting to run out of time as I believe the best time to separate the family will be over summer break which starts June 8. If I do this I want the kids the most amount of time to acclimate to the new family structure before school starts next term.

Part of my current therapy has been for W and me to talk about getting my kids to do more of a share of the work around the house. I am not home enough to supervise this. I have been talking to my W about setting this up. She is just not making this happen, she will not discipline the kids to have them do these chores. Spring break starts the week after Easter for my kids, I want them doing at least an hours worth of work per day for the family. The benefit for W would be an easier transition to work outside the house and then UA time for us in that order.

I am rambling, it is probably better if I start answering questions. Below is a post that is summarizing our married life. Thanks


I am 45, Wife if 46. son 17 and daughter 14 this weekend. We have been married for 20 years last November. I was diagnosed with Diabetes in 2001, and in the years since diagnosis I have been in denial of it.

We married in Cali, moved to Denver for 12 wonderful years. We brought a successful small business back to So Cali when my parents got sick in 2002. Due to opening up a retail location and underestimating rising shipping costs in moving to the west coast, the business failed withing a few years. I was in depression for a few years. I tried various ways of supporting my family. I was given the ultimatum in 2007, get a good job, support the family or else. I sucked it up, went to a trade school and learned a new profession of dealing poker, ended up getting a job in my previous line of work in IT, but found a 2nd job in dealing poker at nights. Continued to work at third job from the home on weekends which I had started back in 2003.


W worked when we were married, up till our 2nd child was born. Since then has become SAHM. She did help out in the business and took a very short stint at babysitting our nephew back in 2006/7. Since then she tried doing a home business, but was not successful at it and is telling me in non verbal ways she does not intent to work. Since I wrote this post on a different board a few months ago she has admitted she was very resentful of the business failing and had decided it was my responsibility to mend the family finances.

For the last two and 1/2 years, between the two primary jobs I work over 80 hours a week including a one hour commute each way from the Santa Clarita Valley to the South Bay. I have made it known that I would like her to work at least during the kids school day, but preferably a 40 hour a week job either in SCV or the San Fernando Valley. She has done little in looking for jobs up until yesterday. She initial agreed to look for work in August 2009. Very little effort. Even after the short separation in Jan 2010 she is not showing much effort for this.

Update:
In the last two weeks I have been looking at her browser history and for the last week, no effort at all has been made on the job search. She initially requested to take an online excel class before apping at temp agencies, it took her 3 1/2 weeks to complete a 20 hour online course.

Our budget is a point where we do not go into the Red, but we have little savings, bad credit and the need to replace two cars in the next 24 months. I have no money put away for retirement. We have one month of emergency funds available right now. 2009 tax payment tookup about 1/2 of our savings that is due on Apr 15.

November 2009 I began to see a new doctor to treat my diabetes. He read me the riot act about my health. due to a back condition last spring I gained over 30 pounds, from my 5 cortisone treatments. My blood sugar was not in control and if I could not get it into control I would need to start an insulin regiment. I also needed to find an extra hour a day for cadio exercise. On a typical day I leave for my primary job at 9:, get there at 10 work till 6:30 -8pm depending on workload and traffic and get home at 9m. When I pull a dealing session I may not get home till after 1:00 AM,plus I deal on Saturday nights and sundays at times.
Update:
Since January I am working out an average of 6.5 days out of 7 and every day in March. My cholesterol has been lowered to 107 from 193. My A1c went from 9.9% in Dec 2009 to 6.6% in Feb 2010 and 4.9% on March 31, 2010.

In December I saw my friend since I knew before kindergarden die of breast cancer at 45. Just before leaving for a business trip my eye doc said I was starting to have the initial signs of macular degeneration. Last week, on a business trip I had a hypoglycemic incident that made me think I was going to have a heart attack.

At this point, I want to ask for a separation with the intent to move to the south bay to live. This is not the only problem in the marriage, just the major one right now. We also have not been intimate for 12 months, and probably averaged sex once a month since the first child was born. I am ready to get out.
Update, the separation was for two days. She agreed in principal at the time to help out with our families FS. I think she just said it to get me back in the house. If I separate again the plan is for her to leave the house, at least the bedroom as I am now convinced I can only support one household.

Please advise and thank you for listening.

I am a MB novice but I can tell you right now that THIS is not going to help you. You cannot coerce or browbeat your wife into doing anything without causing resentment within her and in turn damaging your marriage further.


She is dragging her feet because this is something she does NOT want to do. Now your financial situation is not good and something needs to be done with it but seeing your wife as the enemy isn't going to help your marriage.

Right now you are facing many external obstacles. The MB program can bring you and your wife together so that you can face and overcome them. No, IT ISN'T TOO LATE!!!

Are you familiar with the basic concepts? Can you get your wife on board with MB? There are tools here that can help bring you two back together, tools you can use to help you find solutions that work for both of you ( POJA )

It really isn't too late and you're in the right place. Others will be along to help you and give more advice.

Yes, I know I can not make her work. I also know with my health I can not keep up the schedule I am doing right now. My therapist agrees I am in a middle of a MLC. One of the answers I am seeking is if my W is the women I want to stay with for the rest of my life. If I can not convince her to want to work, than it is a deal breaker right now. With this economy, our FS at risk and myself getting a bit overpaid in a very shaky industry her working is not a point I am willing to negotiate.

I have told her I am willing to work on making our marriage better after she starts to work.

Cali, I'm not really sure how to help here but I think others may be able to. I'm bumping this in the hopes they may see it.

Bump

wouldn't that be a condition kinda thing?

Maybe it would be better to just simple stop working those other jobs and tell her you won't be able to work that many hours in future and request nothing of her. See if she gets serious and looks for work then...don't do it angry like...just say I quit as I can't keep up the hours and my health is at stake.

I am new this could be bad advice for all I know but sometimes in my mind people need to know you mean what you say...follow me?

Thanks Jewell for your help.


I quit job number 3 on Jan 11 of this year. I had also talked about quitting this one since November / December of last year. I am a bit worried, as this job brought in about 20K per year for the last few years as a part time job. It was highly stressful on the family and I did take stress out on the W. Just quitting this job should of increased the LB in lieu of the money. I also have made a number of friends working Job 2. It is dealing poker at charity events and fundraisers across the city. It is fulfilling work, a part of my social life right now, I have met a few A & B list celebrities its a lot of fun.

On my walk I am coming to the belief that my W has decided unilaterally stall her search process until my D14 has graduated middle school. The two kids will be at the same high school next year. It is not the first time she has made a unilateral decision on this issue or others. Last August when I was starting to become more mobile after the injection for my back, we had a very long conversation about her going to work. She specifically promised to search. She admitted later on she was still resentful of other issues and was not being truthful in that conversation. I just do not have very many of these types of conversations left in me with this marriage. I thought we actually made a joint agreement with the issue looking back, even tho I had no idea what MB was about at the time.

I have been looking at her browser history for about the last six weeks, very little effort up till yesterday has been made on her job search. Even then it was not that great of an effort.

If this was the only issue in the marriage I would not be on the ledge right now. Yes I have not met her EN's for many of the 20 years, she has not fought fair, or met other EN/SF's either. At mid life, I can't ignore the money issue and I feel like I need to re-evaluate if she is going to be my life partner.

You won't help anyone blind or with any other of the MAJOR problems associated with diabetes.

You need to take care of yourself first, otherwise, all you will be for them is at best a daily medical issue or at worst, a memory. There is NO excuse for ignoring your health. You can do without in other ways, but you will do COMPLETELY WITHOUT if you don't take care of yourself first.

Wow, that is an interesting approach to marriage problems: get a job or get the hell out! CC, where is your wife's buy in to all this? You talk alot about what you want and need, but I don't see her wishes represented here. What does she want?

Just curious, but what all did you eat yesterday?

You seem to be killing yourself by working 80 hours a week. While your wife sits at home all day. Does she care about your health at all?

A wife who cared would say: "Honey, I love you and thank you for providing for us by working three jobs....but....you cannot work that much, I want you home with me more, and your health to be better...so let me go out and get a job and see how that goes and if you can drop a couple of your jobs"

A wife who cared would say: "Honey I know we need more sex in our marriage. How does once a week sound to you? I will do it once weekly and then work up from there. I love you honey"

A wife who cared would realize that you are killing yourself from all that working. And that you could die from working too hard and not caring for your health.

Good going on getting those readings down to normal levels! I know how hard it is. You have inspired me to work out an hour a day and quit eating all sugary foods. (I have prediabetes)

Is your blood sugar level down somewhat now? Below 100?

Bubbles, you know you work like a dog sometimes yourself, but you don't claim to be doing it "for your husband." You guys are just fine financially without anyone having to work like a dog. Your H working more or less doesn't dictate when you choose to work more or less. I think lots of folks say that they work "for their family," without actually reasoning through the decision with their families.

This was exactly why I didn't want to move to Southern California, because it costs an arm and a leg to live there. I have no idea how you two would be able to afford two homes, even if your W went back to work full-time. I think sometimes we put expectations on ourselves that are unreasonable, more than what one family can do.

NED you made a really good point! Why not find a way out of this by looking "outside the box" creatively.

Perhaps working too much has damaged the marriage. Perhaps expensive living has put pressure on the family also.

Find a cheaper place to live?
Find work that is "humane" with more humane hours?
Both work if that is what it takes?.
Wife works and lets husband have a break?
Both go into other lines of work?
Live cheaper than they do now?
Move to Michigan and buy a $10,000.00 forclosure?
Move to Arizona and purchase a 100K forclosure?
Move to Vegas, he can be a card dealer, she can get part time work and they can get a nice home for 120K?

There are many other ideas these two can brainstorm. Writing all ideas down on a large piece of paper on the kitchen table would be good for the whole family to do.

Bingo you have the dilemma nailed. Without knowing about MB, in August of 2009 we have a very long conversation with myself asking her if she could help me out. With alone time we discussed the issue and I had asked her if she could help me out and work part / full time since our youngest was in 8th grade and our oldest was driving at the time. SHE AGREED to it. She then never pursed looking for any kind of work. She admitted in February 2010 when I started my IC, to harboring resentment of my past business failures in 2003-2007 as the reason she was not going to work. She said, " it was my your (me) fault we are in this mess, you need to get us out of it".

Looking at MB, I thought we had a POJA of her starting working last summer. So what is the MB way when someone lies about coming to a POJA? She again agreed to the concept in Feb 2010 during the resentment talk. I have downloaded her internet browser histories and has spent about 6 hours in the last 3 weeks on a job search. We specifically agreed for her to contact local temp agencies and she admitted to contacting zero last Wednesday.

My next question is when does this become abuse? If she was throwing heavy objects at me this is abuse and grounds to terminate a marriage? When is her behavior abuse towards me in not caring for my medical conditions?

I am off to the gym before it closes today, will answer other topics later tonight.

BTW I worked last night at a poker gig until 4:00 AM last night which is why I am getting a late start today.

The fact that she never followed through tells me she went along to go along and/or has changed her mind. And that is a PROBLEM obviously. Many spouses agree to things they don't really want to do [and it is obvious she was NOT enthusiastic about that agreement] and then fail to follow through. The solution is NOT to force them to follow through on something they don't really want to do, but to address the issue of honesty and come to an agreement about which you are BOTH enthusiastic.

Remember, just getting her agreement is not in the spirit of POJA, it has to be her ENTHUSIASTIC AGREEMENT. BIG DIFFERENCE.

She is very obviously not enthusiastic about going back to work, so I would brainstorm another solution that suits you both. And CAUTION her about making agreements about which she feels no enthusiasm.

A husband who cared would not make Selfish Demands of his wife.

ConfusednCali, you are making Selfish Demands of your wife. She doesn't want to work, and to insist that she does is a Love Buster. You are killing your wife's love for you.

You have not POJA'd this. Getting your wife to agree to get a job doesn't mean she ever really actually AGREED to it. She probably felt forced to agree in order to keep the peace.

Stop making Selfish Demands of your wife. She doesn't want to work and never really agreed to it, so drop it. Brainstorm other options. If you can't afford to live where you are living on one income, then MOVE. Using "this economy" as a reason to force your wife to work is a bad excuse. There are plenty of places in the country where you could live quite comfortably on one income. We do.

So Prica, you are saying that if the wife does not want to work, she should not have to?

Then, what if the HUSBAND does not want to work, should he have to work or can he say he does not want to work?

Why does one spouse have to work and the other one can sit home and not have to work, how is this fair?

Should the husband be a slave and work three jobs?

Rather than making demands, etc., could you begin discussions about what your wife would like to do in retirement? In the event of your death? What's her plan if you unfortunately die early?

Unless you've got great life insurance, this is something I'd probably be concerned about as a women how am I going to survive if he goes? I'd be particularly concerned since there's no savings and with a limited work history, she won't likely be getting a livable amount of social security.

How would you both feel about seeing a fee based financial planner, then, to help you get a road map of how to get to a new financial place?

Have you investigated relocation? Is your family willing to do that? Have you found some cities that really might be viable options? A lower cost of living doesn't always mean better. And some lower COLA places aren't really all that low. (I live in a low COLA, and for example, typical day care costs are what you'd find in Washington DC or Boston. Housing is more expensive as well. But our consumer goods are cheaper than in HCOLA places.)

Well, since the husband is the one here, he is the one who is going to have to do the work, literally and figuratively.

The problem here as I see it is a wife who is:

1. Afraid to be honest with her husband
2. Resentful because of feeling forced to work
3. Fearful & resentful because of husband's past business failings.

She may also have many character flaws which we could easily point out, but that does us no good here, because she is not here.

I agree with Prisca. Cali can't demand his wife work without causing major marital strife which would ultimately destroy any love she might have right now. And I suspect that's not much.

I have a family member who is in a similar situation. (I'll probably go into more detail at some point on a separate thread, because the situation is interesting for MB principles.) He's currently not making much money at his job, and lives in a very expensive area of the country. His future wife has 2 kids, a third on the way (hence marriage) and very little income potential even if you didn't factor in daycare. There is no way the two of them will be able to afford decent housing, even on two incomes, much less anything else. It would be a lot different if there were no kids involved. Very frustrating for those of us on the outside. Anyway, my suggestion to him would be to move to a different part of the country where jobs are plentiful and housing is cheap. Since he doesn't have a house to sell, they could go anywhere at any time.

That would be my suggestion to Cali. Get "confused" some other place. I know the housing market there sucks, and you might even be saddled with 2 mortgages. Personally, I think bankruptcy is a fair option if it means starting over with a clean financial slate and puts your marriage first. Of course, you can't make a decision like that alone.

So first step would be to get your wife's love bank balance up. Do whatever it takes. Stop all lovebusting. Meet EN. Be honest and follow POJA yourself even if her dishonesty keeps HER from being able to. Do whatever it takes to make it safe for her to be honest. Then she will be able to trust using the POJA. Then you can start looking at all the options, even the wild ones, like shutting down everything in california and starting over somewhere new. She's not likely to agree to that now, but if she is in love, she is way more likely to agree to something like that, because love makes us do crazy things, and that's not always a bad thing

I have a full time job now, but when both my kids were very small, I was a SAHM for a couple of years. let me tell you, THAT is work! To be honest, it is easier for me to have an outside job than it was to be a full time SAHM. Don't get me wrong. I adore my kids. But wow....I admire anyone that can do that forever.

We are in a semi-reverse situation in that H has been in school and working part time for quite a few years while I have been the "breadwinner" who provides insurance, etc. And yes, when times have gotten tough, I have had some resentment that I was the one working full time. So I know how that feels. My H is also a type 1 diabetic - he is on an insulin pump. He has been diabetic for 28 years, and he has no retinpoathy, no significant nerve damage, healthy kidneys, and an acceptable (albeit on the high end sometimes) A1C. It can be done. Even when he was in a career with uber stress, he managed his sugar. Each diabetic is different. My H tends toward low sugar problems, so his "normal is 110-120. If he stays in the 80-100 range, that usually means he is headed downward. Good for you for taking care of yourself; that is SO important.

MB is perfect for your situation, but you will have to let go of several preconceived notions about marriage. I know I did. Read everything you can here. Don't be put off by blunt honesty. And the best thing I hear here is that I have to clean up my own side of the street first. Us telling you how badly your wife is messing up may be comforting, but it isn't really going to help YOU.

By the way, my .02....the "MLC" is crap. Yes, men and even women may go through some life adjustments at a certain age, but this idea that we "lose ourselves" and are therefore entitled to this or that is nonsense. Any therapist that excuses leaving a marriage, being selfish, etc by calling it a MLC is not much of a therapist. Okay, that plus 7.50 will buy a fancy coffee, but I thought I would throw that in.

I would suggest buying and Reading Fall In Love, Stay In Love and His Needs, Her Needs.