My husband and I will be working on setting up our own agreements. For example, our own health and fitness plan. We'll define our diet and how we want to go about keeping fit and healthy together. This will help us greatly. For one thing, it will help me at the grocery store. But more importantly it will provide guidelines or radar either of us getting overly involved in a RA that leaves the other spouse behind. This has been a vulnerability in our relationship. So I'm excited to work towards an agreement.

But my question to this forum is regarding opposite sex relationships. (I've got a whole list of various areas that need definition besides these here!) We need to define boundaries regarding one anothers opposite sex relationships. There has been no A so this is a pro-active measure. So I'm asking here for ideas (doing research) or if you have an agreement with your spouse regarding opposite sex relationships? For the record, I do not support so-called 'open marriages' and we believe in sexual exclusivity and I'm fully on board with refraining from intimate conversation with opposite sex friends as well as keeping opposite sex friends as 'couple friends' rather then individual friends and behaving professionally with opposite sex co-workers. So its not like we need a moral compass. My husband tends to be naive when it comes to relationships in general. So he might be dealing with a woman whom is behaving provocatively and using his tendency to "fix things" and teach and not observe the come on until said woman has him involved in helping out! So this is an area of vulnerability. Personally I'm vulnerable to feeling lonesome due to lack of conversation and affection from husband as he is O/C. This loneliness/affection issue has greatly improved however because of MB and UA time. At any rate, I hope this makes sense. Thanks.

I'm not sure what you're asking, graceful.

Is it whether a formal list of EPs needs to be specifically tailored to address each spouse's weaknesses?

My boundary is that unless I am saying "Have a nice day" or "Tell your wife congratulations on the new baby" I don't have opposite sex friendships. No talking about "life" and "realtionships" to get the "male perspective." My friends are my H and females. And, unfortunately, this boundary was formed AFTER I had an A with a male friend - who by the way, I would "never" have an affair with.

We have joint friends. So yes I chat to our male friends, but they are my husband's friends as well. If I meet someone new, male or female then I would want to immediately introduce them to my husband. Ultimately though we don't socialise seperately unless unavoidably (like hubby goes to do his six monthly simulator assessments with another pilot from the base and they'll grab dinner together beforehand).

This is from last week at our church, check out "Flee Baby Flee", he lays down some guidelines about halfway through for married people. lol, don't miss his first one for single people, as well. http://www.brownsbridge.org/messages

All of that is very MB as well.

Sugarcane~
This process was spurred on after a coaching session w/Steve. The idea to create a specific plans or setting up POJA about money, various outside relationships, excercise etc. was decided to be a better approach then to go about attempting to "fix" the other person. Steve likes to use the analogy "following the instruments" rather than "fixing the instrument" so to speak. Its important to understand weaknesses just because these clue us into areas we need to define most thoroughly. Its not that we're managing our lives as though any minute the worst case scenario is going to happen, its about creating a safe environment. I know I run a surgical center and we need these types of systems in place to assure a safe healing environment.

IMHO once you are married there is no need for opposite sex friendships period. It is either couple friends or same sex friends.

This has been discussed on this board many times and the way i look at it is no matter hard strong your boundaries are, why put yourself in the situation to begin with?

You can add me to the list of people who had an A with an opposite sex "friend" I swore I could never in this world find myself attracted to. I really did believe that I thought of him more as a brother. Well, that didn't work out so well. If you start spending time with people of the opposite sex and they start meeting your needs (in my case, conversation and RC) you would be surprised by how quickly feelings of friendship can turn into feelings of attraction and yes, even love.

My H and I have some very casual couple friends, but other than that, my friends are all female. Even my writer's group consists only of women. I learned my lesson. I'm not going near that one again.

My H is my best friend. He's the person I like to spend time with the most. I think that is as it should be.

I'm thankful for the responses. Its going to benefit the process of creating our own plan. I like the idea of stearing clear of opposite sex friendships myself. My husband had been going ot a karate facility where he's developed a friendship and attraction. He's now stopped going to this dojo after this incident scared him. While I'm thankful he realized he was treading on thin ice, I'm weary of creating a policy that does not protect from this kind of situation.

I agree that NOTHING will beat planning...

Steve always asks "what's your plan"?

The "precautions" of "extra-ordinary precautions" requires planning.

IMO, it's not enough to say "no opposite sex friends" because that's not life. You NEED to discuss what you are comfortable with and what you aren't and plan & brainstorm fact patterns from there. "EXTRA-ordinary" means BEYOND-ordinary but, IMO...NOT Stalinesque (unless you are dealing with a serial cheater that desires to remain in a relationship with you). "Ordinary" is what everyone else has WITHOUT A PLAN.

Planing is actually a fun couple activity to come up with scenario's together and figure out the appropriate responses together...THEN, when real life situations arise...both spouses have a mental pathway already established to an appropriate response acceptable to one's spouse.

On the radio some time back...Dr. Harley discussed that when he said spouses should be "no contact with old lovers" or something like that specifically in the book "His Needs...Her Needs" he meant "old lovers"....meaning relationships you either considered yourself "in love" or ones which involved sex. He didn't mean the girl you grew up with and had one date with in high school and merely kissed her goodnight or the guy you kissed at the bar and gave your phone number to in 1999 that ended up married to a friend of yours. They are certainly riskier than strangers...but are they really "no contact" worthy...THAT is for each couple to decide for themselves as they develope their "plan". I'm sure many BS's would consider nearly any and all person from their wayward spouses past a threat and want "no contact"...however, you (graceful) aren't dealing with recovery from infidelity and seemingly feel more comfortable with more aware and cautious contact as your "Extra" in "extra-ordinary precautions".

For example, something my wife and I brainstormed (that can be applied in many similiar situations). What do you or your spouse do if you happen to be walking through the airport and run into an old girlfriend/boyfriend? What about an old opposite sex friend? Brainstorm ideas. Personally, I/we think it's way to much to ask (and thus not likely to be followed) that our spouse LITERALLY turn and run away. So what is the practical solution??? For us, we are OK with a small talk greeting..."great to see you...blah, blah, blah". But we came up with a "do not" list. We DO NOT exchange phone numbers or business cards. We DO NOT linger for more than 5 minutes. We DO NOT go sit and have a drink with them because we both have 45 minutes or even two hours before our flights (just don't TELL the person). If they happen to be on the same plane...do not offer or attempt to change seats so you can sit together. What if you are already assigned to seat near or next to each other and/or the person moves to sit by you??? As you can see the brainstorming can go on and on. Perhaps you will say it's ok to can share some pictures of the family and we ARE to certainly speak (highly) of our spouses. My wife and I don't facebook but should you offer to "friend" them or turn down a "I'll friend you offer"???? After 5 minutes or LESS (not stopwatched but certainly LESS THAN 5 minutes) we are to move on...making up any excuse to not linger and then immediately call the other spouse and INFORM THEM of what happened and exactly what was said while it was fresh in our minds (especially since guys tend to forget...it's genetic). Don't call the spouse IN FRONT OF the opposite sex friend trying to POJA some extra time with the person or something stupid like that because the answer is gonna be "no" anyway so don't make yourself (and your spouse) look like a fool. Finally, perhaps most of all...RECOGNIZE IT AS A POTENTIALLY RISKY SITUATION...something neither my wife nor I would have done prior to MB.

Back to your "Plan"...

Well...in the open & honest questionaire there is a section about old relationships. I don't think there is any list of people beyond that so each of you should then also create a list of opposite sex acquintances. Include every opposite sex person you can think of on such list including but not limited to work colleagues and your couple friends. (include everyone on your contact list on your phones) Then...TOGETHER, you go through your lists and categorize such acquaintances.

They maybe can be broken down in five groups.

Group A - Serious threats
Group B - High Threats
Group C - Moderate Threats
Group C - Threats
Group D - No threat (they died or are obviously not a threat)

How you want to group each person on each of your lists is up to you and YOUR plan.

GROUP A - might consist of all ex-lovers, the neighbor that's been married 3 times and likes to flirt and make themselves available to just about anyone it seem(male or female), known strippers and prostitutes and the obviously young and loose co-worker that has a reputation for sleeping around that you've witnessed flirting with your spouse in the past.

GROUP A RESPONSE DISCUSSION - No Contact to extent possible and if contact...limit the duration to the extent possible and call your spouse immediately. These persons should not be facebook or networking friends nor should ANY of their contact information be available on your phone or computer. If you see or otherwise interact with these people in ANY manner...you should call your spouse immediately. What if you dream about one of them????

Group B might include ANY person in distress especially one's having marital problems (you can list all sorts of strangers..it's YOUR list and YOUR plan). This might include single friends and childhood opposite sex friends (even though you never really dated) as well as a few of your couple friends that either of you in all honesty find attractive or conversely..find overly flirty (Mrs. W and I have a name for this...we call them "OVG'S" (pronounced -- "ahhhv-ga") meaning "overly-friendly guy/girl".

GROUP B RESPONSE DISCUSSION - Don't engage personal problems of opposite sex friends. Disengage as quickly as possible. Only speak to, for the most part...in the company of your spouse. Do not consume alcohol or socialize with this persons without your spouse present. Do not call or text message these people and cc: your spouse any emails

Group C may include just about everyone else in your spouse's relative age bracket including strangers of the opposite sex.

GROUP C RESPONSE DISCUSSION - Do not overly engage in conversation without your spouse. No flirting and be AWARE if they are flirting. Don't "fix" their individual problems...if it's a couple help the couple TOGETHER. Don't discuss your spouse negatively or disparagingly with ANYONE. Avoid any and all situations where you end up alone with such persons. Would it be inappropriate to make a beer-run alone with your neighbor or go out to lunch with your married secretary. What about lunch with your opposite sex UGLY boss? What about socializing at work???

Group D may include just about every other opposite sex person in the nether-regions of your spouse's relative age bracket. Think hard...this could include your daughters girlfriends or son's boyfriends, the cute young girl at Starbucks or the rich old widower down the street. All strangers more 15 years older and 20 years younger than you. You may even put some known homosexual friends in this grouping or Group E depending on the person.

Group D response/discussion - Sure you can give your child's friends rides but always have a chaperone like your child or another adult around to avoid even the appearance of inpropriety. It would be just as damaging to a marriage and family to have some young girl (or even boy) accuse your spouse of something inappropriate....even if it WASN'T true. You can help these people with emergencies without getting prior approval (poja) from your spouse ...(like giving them a battery jump or assisting them with a flat tire or helping them lift a box or move a refrigerator or trim their bushes/mow their grass).

Group E may include the elderly (unless YOU are elderly), the obviously unattainable or undesirable and most family members (though don't be hesitant to put an in-law up the list if you consider them a risk AND attractive...especially if they are flirty).


Once you've nailed down a list (which doesn't have to be perfect)...then you brainstorm the rules of engagement for each "group". I've included some "discussion/responses" above as examples. Each of you will have a notion moving forward of where their spouse kinda ranks most of the people in their lives and how they are to best behave pleasingly to their spouse and appropriately in relation to such other person.

ULTIMATELY...you can't watch your spouse ALL THE TIME. In fact...it's what they do WHEN YOU AREN'T THERE that really defines their character. These lists, responses and discussion give your spouse mental tools to use...WHEN YOU AREN'T THERE so you must not treat your spouse as your pet (because pets only mind when their owner commands them). Putting these lists and brainstorming ideas has to be done with love and trust and the idea that this is a life-long learning process. You can't get mad, jealous or punish your spouse for telling you that they rank neighbor B more attractive than your best friend or that both of them are attractive. It's GOOD information to have to protect YOUR MARITAL TEAM.

Gotta run...

Mr. Wondering

p.s. - The above ideas are suggestions and do not necessarily represent in any way "our plan". Meaning...I shot the aboe ideas, responses and discussion out there above FOR DISCUSSION PURPOSES HEREIN and not as a reflection of what Mrs. W and I have agreed upon or otherwise discussed. I'm attempting to coaching graceful (and others) on the concept and NOT debate what I/we think is appropriate or not for anyone's given plan.

SOME people think they are so smart and junk because they can post really long and logical posts....Gosh!

Mrs. W, tell Mr. W I'm just kidding!

Mr. W, I bow at your all-wise, ever-knowing feet.

Too many of us are coming at this from a POV that includes infidelity, and I think that definitely colors our feelings on the matter. In a M that has not been affected by infidelity, I can see how the extra-ordinary precautions would be different.

It kind of bothered me though when the OP mentioned that her H had to stop going to a karate class because he had developed a friendship/attraction to a woman there. To me, that is a bit of a red flag.

Thank you Mr W! I'm going to print your suggestions out and when we sit down to plan (yes I'm excited about this and so is my husband) and use your suggestions as discussion points.

Yes, we will not set up our plan in such a way neither of us could breath without checking in! Again its really about setting up a safe base.

Write1,
Indeed, my husbands developing relationship at the karate dojo IS a red flag, hence we began working w/Steve, going to MB seminar, practicing MB principles, UA time, developing our own RA's, he's discontinued working out at this dojo where this woman works out-- we're taking precautions.

Now its time to create a base plan which applies to us BOTH! Our plans are to benefit the marriage and one another in a mutually benefiical fashion.

I hope this thread helps others. It has been not so easy around here to get help when your situation does not include infidelity. Still, IB can have the same affect and I was crushed when my husband had told me of this attraction. You see, approximately 5 years ago I became really ill and had four craniotomies (brain surgery) within 7 months. Ever since this horrible illness and complication, I've dealt with one issue after another all related to the cascade of problems as an outcome of the illness. My husband took care of me and our business we have together while I recovered. He joined karate to help relieve stress but he has a tendency to get O/C. Normally I'd reel him back, but we both began to withdraw emotionally when my medical problems became relentless. It was a very difficult time. This is the short version of a long story! But perhaps this explains a bit. I appreciate that he told me the truth about his feelings towards this woman. Still, it hurts me.

I have to ask...what are you meaning when you say RA? And O/C?

I only know them to mean Revenge Affair and Other Child. I'm sure that's not what you mean!

RA = recreational activities
O/C = obsessive compulsive (I think)

I have had, at various times, female friends from work, from church, social groups, and childhood or college friends whom I have run into again. I have never had more than one at a time, and usually only for a few years while working together, or in some group together - then I never see them again after that activity reason is over.

Right now, I do have a good friend from childhood, whom I ran into 3 years ago after 27 years. She is director of a charity for children, and I give her and her board some professional advice. She and I can also talk very freely with each other, because we go way back. I introduced her to her husband, and was best man at their wedding, before I ever met my wife. I talk to her maybe once a month on average, sometimes 2 or three times, sometimes 3 months in between - depends on what business reason their is. I don't just call up or drop in to chat.

My rules are:
* Don't do anything that looks funny to anyone else.
That means not being just the two of you together.

* Don't flirt. Don't acknowledge flirting.
If there is flirting, you had better stop talking to them.

* If you find yourself thinking anything romantic about this other person, take that as a danger sign. Back off an assess how much is their actions, and how much is your fantasy. Neither one is good.

* No matter how innocent and on the level the relationship is, ask your spouse before getting involved with this friend or business contact. If they are uncomfortable at all, ask them why. Don't try to change their mind. If my wife's intuition tells her she doesn't want me to serve on a board with some woman friend, etc, then I won't do it. I don't want to be the cause of any worry or suspicion. If they say it's okay, and then they change their mind, you have to back away.

This was one of Dr Harley's recent newsletters on the subject of opposite sex friendships:


Are "Friends" a Threat to Your Marriage?
By Willard F. Harley, Jr., Ph.D.


One of the extraordinary precautions I mention when discussing the topic of avoiding affairs is to rule out friends of the opposite sex. To many, my recommendation seems to be an overreaction at best and downright paranoid and controlling at worst. After all, it's healthy to have friends of the opposite sex whether or not you're married. Right?

Well, it's been my experience counseling thousands of couples that opposite-sex friends pose the greatest risk for infidelity. True, there are those who go shopping for sex on the internet or have one-night stands with total strangers while on a trip. But that's not the typical affair. The most common affair is with someone who has become a friend.

Work is a place that many find these friendships, but they are also found in recreational settings, volunteer organizations, and even church. What starts out as casual conversation develops into intimate conversation where personal problems are revealed and help is offered by the friend. Massive Love Bank deposits are made when that happens. The next thing you know, you're hooked.

I've read thousands of letters describing the anguish of betrayed spouses caught in this web, but I'm using the letter I received this week to remind you that danger lurks in what often appears as an innocent friendship.

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