KiwiJ...not sure if you were responding directly to me, but I have never said that I planned or anticipated to have an A. I was one of those people who SWORE "it would never, ever happen!" My DH and I had a pretty great M and what I was saying in my post was that LOOKING BACK, I can see that I spent a lot of time in a kind of "independant behavior" fog or at least an independant mindset (before I even met the OM). At the time, though, I didn't see it that way. I didn't ever set out to have an A.

I also do not believe the fog is an excuse for what happened. But I DO believe that if we do not look back and examine the things which lead us down the wrong path (before we even knew it WAS the wrong path), we are at risk of it happening again. And even behaviors that are completely non-A-related CAN impact all aspects of our lives and need to be addressed...so it doesn't happen again.

Oh, LaLa, no I wasn't responding to you. I was responding to the "mindset was already in place" comment.

There's a lot more that happened after our initial recovery as well. I thought I had my boundaries in place but I didn't. My A was from 2002-2003. In 2006 I met up with the OM again and my boundaries went all to heck again.

You can see my post count and how long I've been here. I can safely say that now my H and I are fully recovered.

The fog is no excuse. I would never for one minute say it was. It's a definite mindset though. What led me down the wrong path was immaturity (and I was 48 at the time), selfishness and absolutely no idea that I was capable of an A.

Exactly! And you know what--I think I would still be that entitled, selfish person had this not happened. I am never going to say that "everything happens for a reason" about the A, but at the same time- when we make horrible mistakes as humans, the ONLY thing we can do is learn from it and then try to be better people all the way around, as opposed to just being sorry it happened.

Jenn,

You have stated with your own words exactly what I was bringing to the discussion. The quote from Pittman says the same thing but I think WS's refuse to believe there was actuall a thought process behind each step as opposed to somehow blindly falling into an A.


Thus, as in above, decisions were made, often times well in advance of the act taking place.

That's all I've tried to point out and no, I'm sorry to say, you were not an exception to the rule.

I hope this doesn't offend you or any other WS. It just seems to be the normal progression (fog) that occurs.

All Blessings,
Jerry

bumping too....

not2fun

I was in a deep depression, that was my WH excuse. I wasnt shwering or even getting out of bed. We werre together for 15 years and just had a son. He said he didnt knw what was wrong with me. all he cared about was he wasnt getting sex. That is why , being in the state I was, I can kind of accept the affair. But I never expected him to leave me and my son.

And the cruelty I endured from him after is what I never know if I can get over. I never knew that he could be so cold and cruel. But now I just wonder if my whole time with him was a sham.
He said he never loved me. But I found cards from before my son was born that he wrote in them how lucky and happy he was. He said it wasnt his writing. FOG, IDK.

He abandoned me when I needed him the most. I was sick , he said he doesnt want to be with a sick person. But he will leave his son with me so he can go have fun with OW. He said I gave him no choice but to cheat???? He just left me crying and sick after just trying to commit suicide. The Nurs at the hosp said I would ;have succeeded, My heart stopped, If i hadnt ran for help. and all my WH had to say was that he just didnt love me anymore, he loved someone else now.

I tricked him into marrying me after 6 years together??? He only remembers being happty one year out of the 15 we were together??? He talked to the people (OW) at work about how I wsnt going out or getting out of bed and they said I must be a lesbian> HUH????? HE doesnt know why but he just doesnt care about me anymore. "WE" were living a lie???? WE!!!!! Dont you dare call OW on the phone, she has a 13 YO son she doesnt need You harrassing her.(I had a 6 YO son and she was sleeping with a married man, my Husband>)

I was in such a bad place and the hurtful comments just kept coming, like kicking me while I was down. Is this a FOG , I valued my family, I NEVER would have treated my worst enemy like that I dont care what anyone says.I am not sayin I would never cheat but once the wife called me crying, I would have said get a divorce or that your wife needs you right now and you have a son. I just dont know if I beleive in a FOG I think someone has to have it in them somewhere already to be that cruel to anyone.

I am now getting help on the right meds and seeing a therapist. I dont want it to be the way it was. I am so much better but to be rejected by your husband is so hard to get over. The good that came out of it is that i am now getting help, but it would have been great to have my WH support instead of hem telling me I wasnt worth the effort.

bumping for b_r and Zelmo....and anyone else who cares to read....


not2fun

not2fun,

I think I have run across the answer to your question in a rather unusual book. It is called "Leadership and Self-Deception: Getting out of the box" by the Arbinger Institute.

The book is actually written by a group of philosophers, and aimed at businesspeople. It's written in a story form, sort of like "Who Moved My Cheese", but not nearly as annoying as that book (I obviously didn't like that book!).

The point of this book is aimed at understanding how we come to blame other people for our own bad decisions, how we deceive ourselves into believing that other people have the "problem" when really it is ourself, and how to recognize that exact moment in time when the critical juncture is reached when we are about to walk down the path of stupidity yet again.

It also helps to clearly identify - in retrospect - when we made the stupid decision we already made, and HOW we made it.

In the very simplest terms, one of the points of the book is that we begin to deceive ourselves when we make the decision NOT to do something we very clearly know we SHOULD DO for someone else.

In other words, when we decide NOT to do even the most simple thing for another person, and we know we ought to do it, we begin the path down a highway of either self-deception or self-betrayal (there is a subtle difference), and this path leads quite often to cataclysmic disasters in our relationships and professional lives.

The example in the book is given of a husband and wife sleeping in bed. The baby cries and wakes the husband. The wife sleeps soundly. The husband thinks, "I should get up and see to the baby." Only he doesn't get up...he waits to see if the wife wakes up. He begins to think, "Is the wife getting up? Is she awake, why not? I should get up, but why isn't she getting up? I know she works hard, but so do I. I worked harder this week, and I make more money anyway. Besides, I had to drive to that conference, and she didn't. Plus, I've been painting the garage. She never has to do that. She's lazy when it comes to extra chores. She also gets to nagging and it really bugs me. I'm not getting the baby. It is her turn after all, I got the baby last Tuesday, and it's her job to get the baby anyway."

That's kind of how the example goes, where the guy starts out thinking he ought to do something for the wife, and then starts to talk his way out of it...in the end, his wife is to blame for the fact that he doesn't do it at all. She is blameworthy.

So it goes with an affair. A WS starts out knowing they should remain faithful, but is tempted...they don't want to do the right thing, so they find justifications (the point of self-betrayal) and then ultimately the BS is blameworthy.


The point of self-betrayal is a conscious thing. We are aware of our feelings and reasons for not wanting to do something. (If it is self-deception, then we are unaware of what we are doing and it is subconscious - and this is explained in the book.) The self-betrayal is when we go against what WE know is right, only to stride headlong down a path of self-destruction. Therefore, SELF-betrayal occurs first, then we betray someone else....in the case of an affair.



I highly recommend the book. You can read a part of it online, if you Google "the Arbinger Institute". It has good explanations in it. It focuses on how to change yourself - be aware of this. It doesn't have much to do with working on anybody else.

Because, in reality, you cannot change anyone else. You can effect change in them by changing your own behavior and reactions to them, however. Because when you change course, they have no other choice but to alter their reactions to you.

Anything else is illogical.

SB

School,

Why thanks sweetie. I'll most certainly look into it. I hadn't thought too much on this thread in a while. I actually bumped it up because the question had been posed over in Recoveryville. I'm glad I did though, because it was a good refresher in looking at the answers.

What I find most fascinating in your post is that when I originally started this thread, I was looking for answers concerning WH. In re-reading it today, I was applying the answers to myself and some of my own issue's I have been addressing....so that book you talk about sounds interesting.

Thanks for your input.......you always have something good to contribute....


not2fun

Dr. Harley disagrees with this in several articles. If your spouse isn't meeting even one of your most important Emotional Needs and someone else does, that someone else can build up such a substantial Love Bank Balance that an affair is likely.

My marriage was one such. We were doing many things right: weekly date nights, regular SF, long conversations together late at night, lots of affection, going to the gym together, etc. OM and FWW found a connection in the one area that we had a weakness: I left our shared church and am no longer religious, while she remains deeply religious.

She said the night of D-Day, "I never thought I would be one to ruin a perfectly good marriage."

I guess what I'm saying is, you really CAN have a really good marriage and still suffer from an affair. All it takes is just one weakness in your marriage. Only one. That's the reason extraordinary precautions and good boundaries are so important; be aware of your weakness and prevent people other than your spouse from filling that need.


Dr. Harley uses the term "fog" in a very specific way in Surviving An Affair. It describes a love-bank balance above the romantic love threshold among affair partners. If an AP drops below the romantic-love threshold, the fog clears and they often see the reality of their situation, but contact bumps them up above it again and the fog returns...

I don't know your story, jlr, but I am going to guess that you are a FWS because this is totally not true, as evidenced by the many marriages around here that were GOOD marriage, yet rocked by an A.

Ours was one of them...we fought very rarely, went out on weekly dates, had SF regularly, spent quite a lot of time together. We were far from being in an unhappy M and FWH has never denied that (well, except to the OW, but that's another story). Our M was the envy of many of our friends, and I am not kidding. When friends of ours found out FWS had had an A, I literally saw jaws hit the floor ~ NO ONE could believe it, we were truly known for having a very good marriage.


ITA with this 100%.

not ~ as to answer your original question, personally I think it's very hard to pinpoint exactly WHEN a WS become foggy...using the analogy of real weather-related fog, it truly does "roll in"...it's a slow process, not an overnight one.

Everytime a boundary is moved, it rolls in a little more. And everytime there is a mental justification from the WS as to why what they are doing is ok, it rolls in some more.

My FWH also said that using the term "fog" is a PERFECT way to describe it, what it feels like, and how it happens.

I am not sure I beleive in this concept of fog vs the behavior of the Ws being a true representation of who/what the WS really is, beneath the facade.
If they say cruel things or do cruel things, I beleive it is because that is who they are, at heart. If they act really stupidly, I think it is probably because they are not all that bright to begin with.
Now on the cruelty deal, I think people can change and become more compassionate and empathetic. The stupidity thing is immutable.

I don't know if this is true, if a FWS really "is" cruel deep down, but I DO know that my FWH is nowhere NEAR the same person he was during his A.

He is now back to the person I married, only better. And more in love with me than ever, at least that is what his actions and words show. And what he tells me all the time. He's loving and he follows me around like a puppy dog (that might not be coming out right but it seems to fit)...he wants to be with me all the time, he is Plan A'ing the heck out of me, meeting all of my ENs and avoiding LBers like the plague.

This is a far cry from who he was during the A. I don't think it really matters if this is who he really *is*, and he lost himself during the A, or if he has had to *change* to become this man. Who cares? It's what he is doing and who he is NOW that matters. He WANTS to be the best husband he can be and that's all I care about.

Yep. This is how I have come to see it, as well. Of course it is the type of conclusion that is not susceptible to being scientifically proven. But, it is the way i see it.
When I practiced criminal law, this sort of "diminished capacity " defense was raised a lot by folks that got busted. For the most part, it was bs, much like their religous conversions in prison.

Yes, but a falling down drunk, despite the fact that it is self induced, has a physiological basis for the irrationality. Not so with a Ws "in love'.
Most of us have been "in love". I doubt a normal person would act so strangely and cruelly, even if they were in love.(i am talking adults, not teenagers).

and from Zelmo

Zelmo, you are attempting to introduce LOGIC into something that is not logical to people who have never experienced an A and what it feels like to be going through life in a "fog".

And it IS comparable to a falling-down drunk or a drug addict. Do you believe in the "addiction" and why NC is so important, the same way that an alcoholic must have "NC" with alcohol for life? If so, then why can't an A bring on the same "high" and craziness that an addict or alcoholic would experience when high or drunk?

Just because you have never been "high" on cocaine, does that mean that that high doesn't exist? No, only that you cannot relate to it because you have never personally experienced it.

I very much believe in the fog because I LIVED with a FWH who was very foggy for a long time. Now that he is not foggy, it is even more clear how the fog changed him.