I am going to ask...
Are there posters here who have survived and THRIVED when the WS never reveals who the Other Man/Woman was and never admits to what occurred?

I have proof even though my wonderful gentle wife is afraid to tell me and denies any A and I believe my wife has a therapist who has counseled her to never tell (and if you had put up with my anger and verbal abuse you would probably be fearful to tell me too!). I probably would be.

Our marrige is reblossoming. I am not fooling myself or kidding myself about that. What has happened in the past few weeks is very obvious. I "watched" the withdrawl and thanks to a recorder in her car and listening to her talk with a friend I know the OM is now history.
I have a history of being verbally abusive and have been successful in working Plan A. I will have to work every day of my life to never be verbally abusive again. Its been six months now that I have stopped the verbal abuse and I have put tremendous effort into anger management counseling, education and training and daily work with a support group. I am not proud of myself and when I fully realized what I was doing I actually threw up twice in the same day. The only wonder is that my wife did not find someone earlier in our marriage. It is amazing that she put up with my behavior. My wife is reconnecting to me fully now. I thank God every day for what is happening. Of course I fear that the Other Man could still drop into the picture again but I push that aside in favor of each day now.

I know for a fact that my wife did cake eating for several months but I have every reason to believe that she has now committed to me. I have prayed and prayed and prayed to learn forgiveness and I truly believe that God has given me the grace to learn how to forgive and I have.

I thank God for guiding me to find Anger Management training that has been tremendously helpful. I thank God for guiding me find a Therapist who has tremendously helped me learn where my anger came from and to take charge of it. I thank God for Steve Harley's coaching.

I just wish I could make the fear in the background to go away. I suspect some of it will always be there and I know that Dr. Harley believes for full healing to occur that disclosure is important. My read is that my wife is so afraid that I will return to verbal abuse that she will not disclose and that is not her fault. That is mine.

So... if anyone on this board has lived my situation successfully (and rebuilt without the healing that a full disclosure is supposed to bring) I would like to hear from them. It would help me reduce the fear factor in my life...

hurtingturkey
D-day April 26, 2009
Plan A May 10, 2009

I am not aware of any recovery that is based on deceit because trust can never be built when the WS has secrets with her lover about which the BS is not privy. Recoveries are built on honesty, not deceit.

Have you considered getting her on the phone with Steve Harley? He might be able to get through to her. He can be pretty rough on dishonest WS's, though.

What was your other posting name? I am trying to recall your story.

Does your wife understand this is a necessary first step to effect recovery? How disrespectful her dishonesty is to you?

Your statement sounds like you think your imperfections and LBs entitled your wife to have an affair. It's almost as if you're praising her for her patience in putting off having one for as long as she did. What a saint she was to be faithful when her husband was an angry man! There is no excuse for having an affair, even having an angry, verbally abusive spouse.

I get that you want to own your part of the marriage breaking down and change. You should and it sounds like you've done a great job. But you don't need to be blaming yourself for your wife's affair. Her adultery is on her. She and she alone is to blame.

Depends on what your idea of "survived and thrived" is. If you like the "bury your head in the sand" approach to marital issues, then maybe.

Most of us don't like that approach, however.

Nope. I've been here three years and I've never seen it.

Not knowing can cause future resentment when you least expect it.

I agree with others - her choice to have A is her own doing. She had other choices like separation, filing for D - you would have gotten the message that you needed to work on you. She didn't have to choose A with OM. I don't believe you fully understand or have felt what that choice has done and will do to your relationship. Maybe you're still in shock.

Gg

Agree with otter. Nor is there any excuse for lying to him about her affair. All BS's will be "angry" about an abusive affair; that is no excuse to compound the crime by lying to them.

HT,

Please do yourself a favor and get the all the information on the table NOW! Twenty years ago my now wife had an �EA� and for all I know it may have been a �PA�. At that time I though it was OK to just move on, but it never healed, and it never left my consciousness. At this point my Wife might really have forgotten, as some of the details I remember, she claims not to.

I believe my wife has a therapist who has counseled her to never tell,

I think my wife has been counseled much the same, which galls me that someone else knows, a friend of my wifes, but I do not! In fact I think there were a few witnesses I am tracking down now.

A big problem too, is that our sex life was never the same afterward, and has not recovered fully to this day!

NJ

Yes. I am recovered and divorced. (Well, the recovery may be debatable.)

D-day one was finding out that there was another OW, mushy texts etc.
D-day two, four months later found out that physical sexual contact happened, confessed to by WH.
Those 4 months between d-days were horrendous, I can't even come up with a better word.
The day the truth was revealed was the day that real recovery began for both of us.
No more elephants in the corner.
I could handle the truth far better than I could handle that elephant constantly on my shoulders, it literally kept me crippled from any healing.

I suspect you are feeling exactly what I felt before I knew the truth.
It's not your fault that your WW is not telling you the truth.
You are fixing your AO.
Your WW is choosing to remain dishonest.

Practically: The OM could still be in contact. He could be your friend or her best friends husband. He could be your boss, colleague or a good friend to the family.

You cannot limit her access without closing access to every man on the planet -(if he is a man)

She needs to read Joseph's letter.

#1648390 - 04/05/06 09:09 PM Joseph's letter *a MUST read* for all betrayed
Pepperband Offline
Member

Registered: 20/10/00
Posts: 23771
Loc: Shrek's Swamp
This is a classic letter ... applicable when your adulterous spouse is not willing to disclose the details of the affair ... but wants to recover the marriage ...

Here ya go!

"To Whomever,

"I know you are feeling the pain of guilt and confusion. I understand that you wish all this never happened and that you wish it would just go away. I can even believe that you truly love me and that your indiscretion hurts you emotionally much the same way it hurts me. I understand your apprehension to me discovering little by little, everything that led up to your indiscretion, everything that happened that night, and everything that happened afterwards. I understand. No one wants to have a mistake or misjudgment thrown in his or her face repeatedly. No one wants to be forced to "look" at the thing that caused all their pain over and over again. I can actually see, that through your eyes, you are viewing this whole thing as something that just needs to go away, something that is over, that he/she doesn't mean anything to you, so why is it such a big issue? I can understand you wondering why I torture myself with this continuously, and thinking, doesn't he/she know by now that I love him/her? I can see how you can feel this way and how frustrating it must be. But for the remainder of this letter I'm going to ask you to view my reality through my eyes.

"You were there. There is no detail left out from your point of view. Like a puzzle, you have all the pieces and you are able to reconstruct them and be able to understand the whole picture, the whole message, or the whole meaning. You know exactly what that picture is and what it means to you and if it can effect your life and whether or not it continues to stir your feelings. You have the pieces, the tools, and the knowledge. You can move through your life with 100% of the picture you compiled. If you have any doubts, then at least you're carrying all the information in your mind and you can use it to derive conclusions or answers to your doubts or question. You carry all the "STUFF" to figure out OUR reality. There isn't really any information, or pieces to the puzzle that you don't have.

"Now let's enter my reality. Let's both agree that this affects our lives equally. The outcome no matter what it is well affect us both. Our future and our present circumstances are every bit as important to me as it is to you. So, why then is it okay for me to be left in the dark? Do I not deserve to know as much about the night that nearly destroyed our relationship as you do? Just like you, I am also able to discern the meaning of certain particulars and innuendoes of that night and just like you, I deserve to be given the opportunity to understand what nearly brought our relationship down. To assume that I can move forward and accept everything at face value is unrealistic and unless we stop thinking unrealistically I doubt our lives well ever "feel" complete. You have given me a puzzle. It is a 1000 piece puzzle and 400 random pieces are missing. You expect me to assemble the puzzle without the benefit of looking at the picture on the box. You expect me to be able to discern what I am looking at and to appreciate it in the same context as you. You want me to be as comfortable with what I see in the picture as you are. When I ask if there was a tree in such and such area of the picture you tell me don't worry about it, it's not important. When I ask whether there were any animals in my puzzle you say don't worry about it, it's not important. When I ask if there was a lake in that big empty spot in my puzzle you say, what's the difference, it's not important. Then later when I'm expected to "understand" the picture in my puzzle you fail to understand my disorientation and confusion. You expect me to feel the same way about the picture as you do but deny me the same view as you. When I express this problem you feel compelled to admonish me for not understanding it, for not seeing it the way you see it. You wonder why I can't just accept whatever you chose to describe to me about the picture and then be able to feel the same way you feel about it.

"So, you want me to be okay with everything. You think you deserve to know and I deserve to wonder. You may honestly feel that the whole picture, everything that happened is insignificant because in your heart you know it was a mistake and wish it never happened. But how can I know that? Faith? Because you told me so? Would you have faith if the tables were turned? Don't you understand that I want to believe you completely? But how can I? I can never know what is truly in your mind and heart. I can only observe you actions, and what information I have acquired and slowly, over time rebuild my faith in your feelings. I truly wish it were easier.

"So, there it is, as best as I can put it. That is why I ask questions. That is where my need to know is derived from. And that is why it is unfair for you to think that we can effectively move forward and unfair for you to accuse me of dwelling on the past. My need to know stems from my desire to hold our world together. It doesn't come from jealousy, it doesn't come from spitefulness, and it doesn't come from a desire to make you suffer. It comes from the fact that I love you. Why else would I put myself through this? Wouldn't it be easier for me to walk away? Wouldn't it be easier to consider our relationship a bad mistake in my life and to move on to better horizons? Of course it would, but I can't and the reason I can't is because I love you and that reason in itself makes all the difference in the world."

(end of Joseph's Letter)

Thirty years later you will still wonder who the OM was.
a co worker, neighbor, friend
friend of a friend
relative by blood or marriaqe
does the OM live next door, town
east coast west coast
what did they say and do
what did they not say and do
you will never know if there is NC
you will never know who to watch out for

When my WH was reluctant to tell me the name of his ONS (who had already died by the time he finally admitted to the ONS), I told him that I had better not EVER find out that I had been in the position of pleasantly chit-chatting with some skank who was smiling at me and thinking, "I screwed your H, and you don't even know it."

I told him that refusing to tell me who she was is protecting her OVER me.

He finally did tell me who she was and that she had died.

He still isn't being O&H with me, and that has been a killer for our marriage.

Are you including her in your travel to non-abuse? Is she understanding all the work you are doing, is she seeing the fundamental (I hope) changes in you?

If she can be included in that, if she can get to the point where she feels completely safe talking to you - and this may take years - that you are now her best friend, not someone she has to protect herself from...then you will be able to talk about it and she will be able to tell you the truth. IMO, your best bet to get the truth is to include her in this path with you, by YOU being 100% honest with her so she can see the work you're doing, not just the surface result.

As the wife of a verbal abuser, that is what it would take for me. Total vulnerability and humility on your part. She is not telling you because she doesn't expect your change to be genuine; prove her wrong.

Many thanks to the following posters:
MelodyLane, ottert, MarriedForever, gg615, newjersey, Zelmo, Vittoria, imagine, Lady Clueless, catperson, Pepperband

You each told me something I somewhat expected to hear. Melody Lane, my computer failure and the lost posts from this summer wiped out my old posting name and I cannot remember if for certain. It may have been Sea Pup but I am not sure. You did comfort me in the worst of times as I recall. Thank you.
imagine, Joseph's letter is helpful. Thank you. I may use it as a basis for some communication.
Catperson, you might want to visit a site by googling MEVAC, as joining that site has been invaluable to me in the process of fixing my Verbal Abuse. There is a section for victims as well as perpetrators. My WW has been witness to a transformation in my behavior and she knows I am working on it. I have even spoken and written to my mother in law about my behavior and she has been an invaluable allie. She knows about the Wayward behavior (I did tell her and I believe she suspected or new and I have found her a powerful friend for whom I am thankful). I may have to be patient (pushing for the answer has not worked and denials cannot be countered without me playing the tape recording from her car a source I am not willing to give up).
My WW does not exactly like Steve H. although she has agreed to our counseling (I sort of suspect he has pushed her on the issue but do not know that) with him. Three cancelled appointments (Steve did not answer his phone at the appointed time including this morning) has not helped build her trust or confidence in him and even I am disappointed in that track record.
For the moment I continue my Plan A and am doing my very best and I believe it shows. The funny thing about Plan A is that it has resulted in me feeling more love for my WW. The fear is the issue I feel and I suspect as I said previously that it is what makes my WW unwilling. There is also the possibility that she is protecting the OM somewhat. Since I cannot force the issue (it would not work even if I played the tape re4cording I have) I have let the issue ride as best as I can. Certainly our marriage is much improved - I am certain though that right now I have much higer expectations for our marriage than my WW.
I do feel I set the stage for the A. Yes my WW is 100% accountable for the A, I am 100% accountable for the verbal abuse. Its too long a story to explain what I have learned - and I am so afraid I will make a mistake and blow up one day that I cannot express that fear (its worse or equal to my fear of the A rekindling).
For the moment I continue the counseling - in the back of my mind there may come a day when I stop Plan A and move to the next step. I hope not but I also know that my fear may lessen but will not likely go away.
I am virtually certain that the coaching on its own will not make this disclosure happen. I tell myself to be patient and I am doing my best.
I am amazed to find that I can function without being angry all of the time - fact is I function better now than I have been. Still, the fear is daily. I am at peace with the forgiveness part of the equation - its just hard to deal with the unknown as virtually everyone has mentioned. Wish me luck as we proceed.
Thank you all

I'm always cautious wishing a person luck -I wish God's presence in your marriage.

Thank you imagine.
Blessings....

HT,

You might want to get a facebook login, if you don't already, and look up your wifes friends, and the friends of her friends. This OM might be a mutual friend.

What type of web snooping have you done.

NJ