Hi All,

W and I have been in MC now for a month, still separated. W sez she is very happy with how we are getting along now but has not yet thrown her hat into the ring to commit to rebuilding the marriage ala MB.

W is not yet ready to receive my affection (well, there were a few one-sided hugs, just me to her, recently and that was received OK) or even accepting a dinner-out invitation from me...but yet I'd like to recognize Valentine's day in some special way without being too pushy, given our current state of being separated, but not yet reconciled.

Any ideas out there in MB-land for some way to observe this "lovely" holiday without being too presumptuous, commercial, or ordinary?

Thanks!

p.s. Dear MB people who have helped me in the past: things are going extremely well for me right now. Soolee, Bubbles4U, Catperson, LovingAnyway,themud, ned, Telly, tst...and so many more. Many many thanks for all the advice! The changes I've made in myself are working to save our marriage!

Well hi there, Ever. I've been wondering how things are going, and I'm glad that you're holding your own and things are going fairly well.

A few suggestions:

How do you feel about finding a card that you can give her from your son and yourself, along with perhaps half a dozen roses and a gift card to a place where she can go to lunch with a friend? You can tell her that you'll be happy to watch your son while she goes out.

Another idea is, perhaps, a dozen roses with 1 single rose in the bunch, different color, from your son. You can ask at the florist what each color represents.

A photo of she and your son in a heart-shaped frame (might be a wild goose chase but well worth the effort). This is also a good idea to reserve for Mother's Day.

The last is to be O&H with her after handing these items to her. Tell her you were really in a quandry about how to handle the holiday, considering the situation. Tell her you wanted to express your feelings but be respectful about it, and you hope you did okay.

Have a great day, btw...it's 50 degrees where I'm at for the next few days, and I intend to get outside - soak up some vitamin D. Take care of yourself.

Does your wife value romance or is she more practical? Can you guess what her highest needs are?

Here are some things that I thought of (I'm thinking though, you might have done the first suggestion.)

Sending your wife's parents a valentine's day card thanking them for such good care of your son.

Work with your wife's mom to have a girls day out and provide some spending money.

Have you started a college or other savings account for your son? If not, I'd send your wife a card and inside include the account info on an educational IRA for your son.

Thanks for the good news, EHG. How about some brainstorming, EHG? What were the happiest memories you have together? Maybe a snow globe or something to remind her of the happy times? We could all use a little more happiness, especially in tough times. I'm one of those folks who looks at some of that stuff in the Hallmark store and am so touched. Maybe someone at a place like that can help you find something that would be meaningful? And then get one for yourself, too, if you like that kind of thing

Another thing is that perhaps your wife views dinner out as too 'date like'. You may want to start with breakfast with she and your son or coffee and pie somewhere.

Something that your wife may be interested in is a group called Kindermusik, that incorporates music with infant/toddler/preschool groups (according to age) and could turn out to be a nice way for her to get out and for your son to mix with other babies. The younger children stay with their mothers, of course.

It costs a bit, but it's a nice way to expose your son to other children his age and music that expands the young mind, before preschool time begins and/or after. (I forgot that it can run from newborn up to age 7.)

http://www.kindermusik.com/

Soolee-
I like the kindermusik suggestion.

Besides kindermusic, we also did mommy and me swim lessons.

Do you have any zoos, museums, etc. that are close by? Maybe a family membership might be a nice gift.

ETA: Does your wife have any hobbies? I always appreciate gift certificates to my favorite hobby stores.

I did the Kindermusik thing with my kids to try and help them with the transition into preschool. I wanted them to have some experience with authority other than their father and I, and I wanted them to have some exposure and 'sharing' opportunities with other children. It was a bit pricey at that time, but the nice thing is that there are no long-term commitments. You can drop out any time you like if it's not working for you. I think each segment may be for a few months. Then you'd have to sign up again if you wanted to keep going.

I haven't read your story, but I think it would nice to send her a card that let's her know you're thinking of her. Also, plan to do something to keep yourself busy on V-day, a hobby or small trip or something. You don't want to put yourself in a position where you'll be tempted to pressure her, nor where it looks like you've moved on to something else.

Also, is there no chance she might warm up to something by then?

And I like the other ideas, I'm just adding some thoughts.

Thanks for all the suggestions from everybody.

We have no kindermusik where I live, but I like the suggestion of roses + 1 diff color one from son.

I also like the low-pressure suggestion of lunch/dinner for w and her mom rather than with me.

Most of all, I like the suggestion of a framed photo of a great moment in our history (or perhaps with our son).

I really like this to reduce tension and expectations:

Already contributed to son's education fund, big time.

Already gave in-laws a nice card thanking them for what they do for our son. And a special card for mother-in-law, who went all out last year with helping for our son.

Someone asked about romantic vs. practical. W is a bit of both, but when not in a romantic mood (as in d-filing!) is 100% not romantic. Mostly w is very very practical. She's almost like a guy in our relationship that way: she's the logical cool one and I tend to be emotional and warm.

Someone else asked about whether she might change more by Valentine's day. Well...funny you should ask. This just in: my hug was returned during the AM son exchange this morning. This is scientifically verifiable, though there are no witnesses other than my son, who can't yet speak. Yep, she actually put her arms around me this time too. Must've been the warm and fuzzy sweater I was wearing that did it. There's more. For the first time in nearly 9 months (since d-filing, court, court, and more court, then finally MC), she called me "Sweetie Pie" during the mid-day son exchange a few hours later. I just about had to change my underwear after I heard that one. Anyway, I'm speechless with excitement.

EHG - I'm just grinning here. You're doing a great job. Just go with the flow. Be cool about it. Don't assume anything.

Some weirdness, but please tell me that this is completely to be expected given MC for only 6 weeks so far.

W came into the MC waiting room and sat down in the chair next to me. I asked if we should properly greet each other with a hug. She looked at me with the "I don't know if we've made enough progress" look (even though we've already had at least 4-5 hugs, all of which I initiated, one of which she mildly participated in; also see previous posting for a term of endearment she recently used, that surprised the heck out of me). So, I didn't attempt the hug.

While going through the LB questionnaire during MC, I asked w to help keep me in line if I am LBing on her major ones and she was quick to remind me that I should not be doing this for her b/c we may not end up staying together...and that divorce might not be bad for our son (earlier in the session).

Are these kind of things typical for a d-filed w to say? Should I be expecting more progress?
I sometime get the feeling w is doing LB questionnaire only to facilitate her dream "friendly" divorce and say that "yep, I went to counseling and it didn't work just like I warned you that it would not work" Are these crazy thoughts I'm thinking?

(Can't wait until she talks to Harley!)

And last of all: should I still occasionally hug my w? Gads, I never thought I'd be asking that, but here it is. Or, should I just remain cool and not follow my feelings of affection?

I wish I had the perfect words today.

Was affection/hugs discussed in therapy?

she was quick to remind me that I should not be doing this for her b/c we may not end up staying together...and that divorce might not be bad for our son

Next time she says something like this, I would tell her that you're trying to learn how to be a better man so that you don't keep making the same mistakes, and you appreciate her help. Let her think what she likes. (As far as the second half of her remark...I think that's subjective, and considering you are the other parent, your opinion is just as important.)

I think the whole exchange over the hug in the MC waiting room had a mechanical feel to it. It doesn't seem natural that hugs would even be up for discussion? I don't know. Seems that it should come naturally or not at all. I realize this whole thing has shaken your confidence, but I think my concern is that handing over all the control to her may not be the way to go.

Let's hear what others think, okay, because I could be off. It's a tough call, really. I can see where being respectful of her feelings and her pace would be very important. On the other hand, when a man appears unsure of himself, that can send a message too.

Maybe it is time to revert to handshakes, and if she seems surprised, ask her which it is - a hug or a handshake, because it's getting to be a bit of a riddle. I don't know...

You're a better man than I'd make, that's for sure.

I still think she's having an affair--or at least had one, and is keeping him "on hold" for now.

It is just SO unusual for a woman not to respond when her husband makes genuine efforts at reconciliation... and your instincts about feeling as if she's going through the motions so she can say she tried it and it didn't work.... It just continues to flash red flags to me.

6 weeks is a fair amount of time. Either she is not being honest with you about what she needs; she's not letting you do what she needs because she doesn't trust you; or she's not letting her meet her EN's because she would prefer for someone else to do so.

I'm sorry to keep beating a dead horse, and I know you relaly believe she is not having an affair--I'm just telling you that it's very odd.

Have you thought about talking to Dr. Harley? I can't remmeber if that was an option for you.

Telly, I don't think she's game for Dr. H just yet.

EHG...in keeping with Telly's suspicions, do you feel hiring an investigator would be a waste of time and money? If there's even an inkling, now is not the time to worry about her getting angry about it. She doesn't need to know, and you have every right to make sure you know if you're up against a third party (who aren't her parents).

Hi Telly and Soolee!

Thanks for the advice. I've pretty much confirmed that she's not having an affair. There may be someone "waiting in the wings" and she may be having phone/email contact with them, but I doubt even that. Here's one thing: I suggested we MC until April, but she want to MC until August. Another is she simply doesn't have time between nursing and a full-time job right now. It simply would not make sense. Also, I'm very serious about this when I say it: she's a good and honest woman. Please take this statement seriously.

If I were playing amateur psychologist, I'd say she's left me for her parents, who can satisfy most of her needs except for affection and sex. These two she doesn't need b/c of her current nursing hormones--no interest in affection. So, the affair she's having is in some sense with her parents. That's a killer to beat because you can't do NC, right. Plan B will fail because she's already chosen them over me. Plan A seems to work most of the time, so I'm sticking to that. Some examples of w's choices: we used to run together all the time and she knows I would love the chance to run with her, yet she runs with MIL or alone a few minutes from my place instead of asking me.

I want to show her nothing but love and affection, but she's not ready to receive it. So...the best I can show her is caring and concern for her through conversation, giving her extra alone time, making sure I support her career, getting groceries, etc. My contact with w is limited to pickups/dropoffs of son--she has made it clear that she's not yet ready for any "extra-curricular" activities (but has not ruled it out). We have ended up talking in my car for up to an hour (she's still not letting me in her home due to "trust" issues from the court stuff) and once for an hour-and-a-half in her yard.

Other oddities. I have not mentioned anything about reconciliation, but w brought it up, out of the blue, about 10 days ago, saying that she's not ready to talk about reconciliation this week or in this email but is very happy about how things are going. That's a puzzler given some of her contradictory behavior. I did not respond to that email b/c I really had no idea what to say.

Q: is she ready for a convo with Harley?

Gosh I love w to pieces but if I show it too much I think it'll kill our chances. How to show it in respectful way...I'm so anxious for progress, but I don't want to ruin things by letting my anxiousness run the show.

Was not discussed in MC as it didn't seem like an important topic.

I do think it also has a mechanical feel to it, but not from my side. It comes naturally to me as I am the affectionate one in our marriage. But right now, to w, it might feel like violation of her personal space. Of course that's hard for me to take and feels so insulting to me, but that's my problem. It's also hard for me to take that she allows strangers (babysitters) in her house to watch our son, but not me, yet.

Finally, she brings stuff to me from garden and things from her fridge...so that's also a nice gesture. Confuzzle, huh?

p.s. I chose not to hug or do any physical contact this AM. She seemed happy as a clam.

The whole mechanical feel I was referring to came from the need to ask her if you should hug. I found that odd. I'm not sure why. To me, were I in semi-withdrawal, it would make me feel a bit manipulated.

I think your wife is in a nice version of conflict. She's riding the fence a bit, wavering. One minute she's thinking she wants to reconcile. The next minute she isn't quite sure. I think the best thing you can do is just continue to be consistent with the Plan A behavior, but you need to be ultra good to yourself while you're doing this.

Consider that she may be afraid you'll try and seduce her if she allows you into the house - and that she'll give in before she's ready, before she's gotten things turned in the direction she would like them to be.

The other possibility is that she's afraid you'll feel as though you've crossed some sort of figurative threshold with her and stop doing all the good things. Trouble is, she won't know for sure if she doesn't test it.

I wish I knew the answer to being invited in. If the big hangup is about the court order and being hand delivered a petition (or whatever you call it), maybe it's time to just say:

"I was wrong to react like I did, and I'm sorry. I was in shock and panicked. I wish I'd handled it differently because I didn't mean to hurt you. I was just trying to protect my relationship with my son.

You of all people should understand that kind of love and the sort of panic that could set in if it were threatened. I hope it says something good about my paternal instincts, and I hope someday that you'll trust me again and let me into your life. I didn't mean for you to get hurt."

You're right when you say:
It's my problem. It's sort of like asking someone if you can kiss them. Very odd, huh? In my state of mind I've forgotten some basics, but every time I hug her I feel like she's going to call the MC cops on me for "boundary" violations. I'm suffering from shell-shock still and need to get normal.

'

Yes, I think you're right. What I was wondering is from the perspective of experienced MBers, you included, is this a perfectly normal thing at this stage? Since I'm a novice at this (first time I've been dumped), I feel like "doesn't everyone like a bit of affection (i.e., a hug)?" Apparently not in this stage and not for her.

The trouble I'm having is mostly my own. I just want to reach out and hug her when she's having stress from her job, etc. I want to hug her hello and goodbye like normal people do. Everything I read says I should exercise restraint, but doesn't it seem like a basic need like affection would be a nice simple way to make a connection with w?

Re not letting in the house.

Well, I don't think it's the seduction aspect. I think it's closer to the second possibility. My own dime-store psychology says that she is absolutely enjoying the sense of control now and if she gives in to that and committing to the MB plan, she gives up her control.

Maybe I can follow Dr. Harley's suggestion of a trial run of a choice, which in this case is reconciliation. That way she cuts her risk. Is this too lame? I'm not ready to suggest that to her yet, but why not?

I sent her a 3 page letter of apology, including something similar to the above. Actually, I steered clear of any excuses for my behavior and purely focussed on how w must have felt, that I was sorry, and what changes I'm making to avoid that. Maybe it had some effect on her, but I sure didn't see any hint of forgiveness. I poured my heart and soul into that letter. I think to forgive also means giving up some control.

If it is a hormonal issue and that accounts for her lack of a need for affection and sex, how do I even bring that up in MC in a nice way? No woman wants to be told their emotions are from hormones.

I also feel so sad that I'm not a "free-and-easy" part of my son's life right now. He's experiencing so many changes. I also desperately want to be there at night for my w so that w can get a good night's sleep every now and then--she's still nursing him every three hours (he's over a year old) round the clock. I have seen him every day for the last 20 days for three hours/day, thanks to w's changes and willingness to let me be a part of his life, but it's still not the same as living at home and having unlimited access. It hurts, but I don't want to push on this either b/c w reacts very negatively if there are any feelings of push.

Finally: is MC supposed to be this hard?

Aside: Soolee, I'd like to send you a draft of a note I want to send w sometime, after she's spoken to Steve, to get your opinion and see if there are any DJs in there. Would you be open to giving me comments? What would be the best way to get it to you if you are interested?

Hi Telly,

I had a question to you about:
Is this really true? I mean I really have changed myself to be a better partner to anyone and am making a genuine effort. But the other side of the equation (w) doesn't seem to be responding to my genuine efforts (at least not just yet). I just don't get it. Our marital issues were not that terrible compared to the stuff I've read here and people have still reconciled and their marriages have thrived.

So, my question to you is: I take it you would respond to such a genuine effort, but is that response really universal among women? Maybe my w is just wired differently where her cold logical side refuses right now to respond as a warmer woman would. If so, I view it as MY failure to warm the depths of her soul better and would welcome suggestions.