Thanks everyone - I do really appreciate all of this.

Some quick responses to ?s:
* Yes, we are legally married (have 2 boys, age 6 and 9)
* Am snooping to confirm NC (think she is still in "mourning" but hasn't contacted, and he hasn't either - my only mistake was revealing I have access to the cell acct (she had changed the password & I found it written on a piece of paper - when she was "saying the last things she needed to say", saw the text trail and called her on it (so now she's suspicious of my snooping and I have been much more discrete about it)

We had a chat exchange this morning (not on the phone - was in a meeting) in which a lot came out - she's "walking on eggshells" around me, sensing all my disappointment in not wanting to go to MC (she is blowing it off this week again, as the first major event from her new job is Saturday, she's stressed/tired, etc.), not wanting to be physical, etc., thinks I will "never" forgive the A/I keep wanting to "punish" her, etc...

She's made it clear she wants some space and feels I'm smothering her (both wanting to talk about all of this stuff and generally just wanting to try and "reconnect" by spending more time together)...she is very focused on this new job now.

That's why I'm struggling with any kind of "recovery" plan, as it seems she's not really ready to even go there (even though the A is apparently over, though I'm of course always paranoid that it's going to "come back" (especially if I keep looking like a nuisance/burden instead of better option).

Know I need to "take the lead" here but with her wanting space, am struggling with how to do that.

At the airport now (back from the trip) so need to cut this short, but will post again shortly. Thanks, everyone.

I'm thinking the A isn't over. It's an EA at this point, but an A nonetheless. It won't be over until she sends a NC letter, you expose, etc., etc.

I'm curious - you are asking for advice on a board that support and promotes the MB 'way', yet you have failed to take even one bit of advice. What is it that you expect?

I too am curious. Hmmmmmm.

Hi NLG,

I am really happy that you have decided to participate here again. Please, this time at least try to seriously consider the advice offered by the more experienced here who are much more versed in MB principles and concepts than I am at this stage.

Just some tidbits for you from what I have learned here:

Listen to the advice from Linus - I agree 110% with him. The affair may Not be over, or if it is on hold while she 'assesses' your intentions, it could reignite very quickley. You need to be 110% certain that it is over, and at least insist on Your rights as her husband. May be all she is waiting for. So expose! So insist on the NC letter! My sit: is different, but I went to our kids, her brother, and her counselor and the administrator at the nursing home. I didn't know the OM or any of his family and he had left by the time she informed me, so a little different, and I didn't feel I needed to do that part.

Have you guys even considered the EN questionnair (emotional needs questionnaire)? You might be surprised at her willingness to do that, and at the outcome.
My sit: My wife resisted for awhile but finally did and we were both surprised at the results. We did our top five at this time. We shared three of the same as each of our highest. She had one which is not on the list - Understanding. To her this means me comprehending what she is going thru and accepting her none the less. At the very least, she was pleased with fact that we were both willing to open up to each other.

One of the members here, Turtlehead, advised me fairly early on to not judge my efforts by how she reacts. Just go ahead with my plan. I was reacting to how she responded, or to new events. And, at times I was reacting very badly. I was bouncing more or less w/o a plan. When I became more consistent in trying to satisfy her top EN's WITHOUT expecting anything in return she responded much more positively. NLG, if she is stressed and tired about her new job, just try to do things that will help her relax, unwind, and take the pressure off her, esp w/o the realtionship talk.

I've heard here many times do Not do the relationship talk. The vets here can so much better comment on that. Focus on only your own plan. It is my understanding from what the vets have said here, there will be time for the realtionship talk later.
My sit: there were many times when I took my wife out that I did not engage her on our present or future, or her affair. We just enjoyed stuff. If I took her to dinner and a movie it was just our usual talk about the movie, if she enjoyed her meal, kids, what are you doing tomorrow, that sort of stuff. If SHE brought up our relationship I was willing to listen. I can honestly tell you this has been my strongest suit, despite all my other failures and shortcomings lately.

Forus on your Plan A (if that is your intent)! There is someone here who gave a really great post on this, and it was about two weeks ago, but I don't remember who it was or in what post. The gist of it was as I recall, don't construct your Plan A on where she is right now. Focus on simply doing the best you can to meet her top ENs (of course it goes without saying you need to know what those are right now). And, focus on avoiding any and all LBs. You need to know what they are too. And do this WITHOUT RESERVATIONS or EXPECTATIONS. Yes, you will need to have a timeframe, and you will need to evaluate your plan periodically, that only makes sense. But not every day!

Oh boy! Well you probably did not want to come home and read this. However, I see very few people reacting to you now. It is when you reject advice and then come back to the well that people are going to look at you with a jaundiced eye. It's like the offensive tackle in the NFL, who keeps getting flattened or spun around by the defenisve lineman, and his quarterback constantly sacked. His coach advises him of the stances, spins, and moves to incorporate. He for whatever reason does not listen. Guess what? By game six that tackle is benched, traded or released.\

NLG, please take advantage, and again good luck!

Tom

NLG,

Ya know what. I was going to update my thread and I saw a name I recognize on a very recent post, and it is mark1952. I think he might be the one who did the post on Plan A and the ENs. As I recall it was a farily long post and it was either a jim or a mark. You might want to post to him to see if he was the one, or maybe he could advise you who. It was well worth reading.

Tom

NLG,

I am curious about something. You stated in your first post that you had NO sex life with your W and that you did 80% of the work around the house. You also pointed out that the whole family had to walk on egg shells at least two weeks out of every month.

So why would you be pushing for sex now? Are you willing to have a sexless marriage? Are you willing to continue to do 80% of the household work as well as work a full time job? Are you willing to subject your children to learning that they must "walk on egg shells" two weeks out of every month?

Explain to me why you love this woman and are willing to subject your children to her poor behavior. Explain to me what YOU think a good marriage is and why you are afraid to lose this one.

You see your statements and her actions don't add up. And before any concrete advice can be provided we need the information requested above.

Please think carefully about this.

JL

Thanks for this feedback � I think part of my problem is being a little schizophrenic about what to do (as well as reading too much conflicting theories � i.e., MB vs. Divorce Busting).

I know that the DB techniques (get a life, detach, etc.) seemed to backfire (as at the time, she told me she felt �alone in her own house� and was a reason she was continuing contact with OM at the time �to get that emotional support� she needed (while I was detaching)).

In doing more reading, I�m understanding more about MB Plan A, which as I understand is meeting your spouse�s ENs, creating a pleasing home environment, no LBs (which I�m realizing now I�m doing, even if not consciously � no angry outbursts, but think I�m making �demands� (like going to MC) and she feels I�m �disrespecting� her (her point that I will �never forgive her� / she needs to be �punished� for what has happened.

It�s clear she�s REALLY stressed about her new job and doing a good job (and has thus put everything else, including us, on the backburner). I have made an effort to support her by taking the kids when she has meetings, getting the kids out of the house so she can work (it�s a work from home job managing a weekly craft/flea market).

Agree, Tom, that the best approach will be to back off and try to support her through this with no more R talk (btw, our relationship has become affectionate again, lots of hand holding/physical contact but nothing sexual)�also agree that I�m hoping our MC can do much of what I need to do/deal with here, so appreciate that 2x4 especially as I realize that now.

We do have a NC agreement in place (I am still monitoring cell/computer and the last �goodbye� was actually a series of texts that she was �going to tell me about� (but which I confronted her about per my access to the account, so will never know if she would have actually told me or not) � has said she understands that if there�s any new contact from here that she has to tell me immediately after it happens). At this point, I really don�t see the point of exposure.

I was pretty much an emotional wreck last weekend (and not fun to be around, to boot), so definitely have all of the feelings of mistrust, grief, anger, etc. about this (I feel like seeing those texts flying around 2 weekends ago restarted my �clock� in that regard, as I felt vulnerable again that the A was starting up again).

I wasn't pushing for sex (in fact, told her directly that I�m not even *ready* to have sex � too many triggers for me), but now see that I was pushing for some kind of physical connection (and a hope that we could emotionally connect), but definitely did have �expectations� in my head that I should have articulated and discussed before the trip.

Don�t think she would agree to do the EN questionnaire (has insisted she is a �private� person who isn�t comfortable going too �deep� right now), but want to ask her, if she�s not willing to go to MC yet, what she thinks we should do to get over this and get our R back.

JL, our home life has gotten better since she�s ended the A � she�s much more even keeled (we�re not walking on eggshells anymore, though she has a few days where her anger shows and I call her on that behavior now, especially around the kids), the distribution of house tasks is better (I�d say it might be 60% me / 40% her now), and she is making an effort for us to start reconnecting (minus the last week or so when the work stress seemed to take over and I�ve been not in a good place). And no, I will *not* accept living in a sexless/loveless marriage the rest of my life.

Ultimately (despite all of this we�ve gone through), we do enjoy each other�s company and are really connected as parents (and her time away made me realize the void there would be without her around, despite all her foibles), and when we do allow ourselves, we honestly can connect and feel closeness.

I do struggle sometimes to see whether this is all worth and how far she�s willing to go to change our R (as she really does have a fear of change and I wonder if she can get past the resentments over the years, when we both really �shut down� for each other and turned our M into really a roommate/co-parenting situation), hence where we are now.

And also if I�m just clutching to something I should let go, and why I continue to clutch to this when I don�t generally feel very supported in this R (but feel I bend over backwards to do the same for her). Thanks.

Hi NLG.

I just wanted to simply give you a handshake and a guy hug, okay.

I am very happy you are here and posting your feelings now. I can't say much tonight because I am involved with my own situation with my wife.

I am honestly not in a postion to offer you any kind of specific advice in terms of Dr. Harley's MB concepts and principles nor will I pretend to. I only have mainly now my own brief understanding of those concepts and just also only my own experience.

Keep going tho, whether you receive hard questions or the 2 X 4's, or open arms.

Basically NLG it comes down to humiltiy. You at some day very soon are just going to have to simply say the simple words 'I love you' and go from there. You cannot expect or predict how she will or should respond.....NLG You just damn well have to take that chance and risk.

I so hope now that others here will respond to you, because I think the truest of them need you as much as you need them.

Take good care,

Tom

NLG, Tom said for me to get my butt over here, so I guess you are stuck with me for a while. Tom is a good guy who has had his struggles. You can probably expect Pep here as well. You will appreciate her ability to convey information in short form.

I tend to be wordy.


Well, that is probably because you haven't completely bought into MB concepts yet. Don't worry about that, the light will come on as you read.

The deal is that exposure is meant to kill the affair and provide extra eyes and ears to help keep the no contact rule in place. EVERY contact starts the gerbils running again in her head.

Fact: Most all affairs die a natural death even when they don't get caught. Why? Because the brain reward chemicals that fuel the affair expire. Why? Because there is no real world to keep them going only the fantasy of the affair and fantasies have a way of going poof. That is the short explanation. I am working on the long one.

MelodyLane is the expert here on exposure. She may come along if I missed something and brief you in more detail. If she does, listen.

I am going to go back in your thread and take a look. I am retired, so I have lots of time to reflect with folks and try to help them with MB concepts. I am not an expert, but I know a few things and I try to pass them along and help them do self learning, which is more important.

Larry

Wow reading this thread is very sad for me. I feel like I am listening to a woman who is being beaten by her husband and yet she hangs around for more beatings.

But in this case it is a man who seems to have self-esteem problems. For some reason you have enabled your wife to treat you like crap and you beg for more. You should have thrown her out in my opinion instead of letting her go sleep with the OM again.

I did not see you address this post:


Or this one from Just Learning who I admire for his advice:


Your in a marriage where you have not had sex in 6 years?? You are on eggshells and you do the domestic work.

I just don't understand what you are trying to hold on to? I could get it if she was the model of a good wife and made a mistake but she has not been and she does have sex with other men but not her husband.

I hate to sound mean but how would you feel if your children observe this kind of treatment and then marry a spouse that does the same thing to them? Would you not try and get them away.

It is your life and do what you feel you should but could you please explain why you want to be married to her. All you have been doing is enabling the abuse and then asking for more. Please think about it and respond if you could.

NLG, I stopped in with some encouragement from Tom. I only have time to keep up with a few threads.
I read your first post and the last page (7).

I don't have anything new to add. But I can reinforce a couple of points that are poignant in my view.

I feel very sad for your boys. I believe they are at risk to grow up thinking that a normal relationship is one like the one you have cultivated with your wife. An unhealthy one. Of course they will most likely perpetuate this problem by finding selfish troubled mates that treat them like crap. And that makes me even sadder.

If you can't stand up to your wife's abuse for yourself, NLG, please do so for the sake of your children. By abusing you, she is abusing them.

~optimism

NLG

Eight pages of people telling you to expose and you will not.

I have seen many people as you. Letting fear stop them from using the most effective tool to end an affair.

So what happens is the affair continues.

I ask you to think the following thoughts through. Your WW is not loving towards you now. The OM is banging your WW.

What is the worse that can happen after you expose? The WW is not being respectful to you now. WW will get mad at you so she will go and bang the OM.

Oh! Wait! WW is aready doing the OM. So you have to see that she can't do anything worse to you then she is aready doing.

Well yes it can get worse the longer you allow the affair to contnue the odds increase for the WW to get a STD and then bring it home to share with you.

Or the OM does your WW enough times that he gets her pregnant.

Is that what you want, to recover a marriage with a WW that brings home a OC for you to pay for it's birth through college, wedding, help with the first purchase of the OC's home?

Or do you wait till the WW loses all respect for you because you sit in fear as she keeps on banging the OM, so she just divorces you?

Thanks for the feedback and 2x4s; I guess I **STILL** don�t see why to expose at this point, as I truly believe the A is over (he lives ~300 miles away, no evidence of ANY contact since 2 weeks ago, no perosnal contact in 1 month) � she honestly doesn�t have any close friends that this would impact her decision-making on this (which is one of her problems � she doesn�t have anyone really she confides in besides me (and OM when he was in the picture)).

I think this A *has* already (or is in the process of) dying a natural death � what am I to say when I expose � �my W *was* having an affair?. I know that exposure is the �stick� part of Plan A, but think she is past the contact part (but not yet past the �mourning� part).

I do agree I have some self-esteem problems in holding onto this M after the A and other problems we have (including my lack of a spine generally) and am trying to get a grip on how to be a better person (which has been the blessing, honestly, in going through all of this).

I definitely have put my �head in the sand� in coping with our M over the years, became very work-focused (which of course seemed more �controllable� than my home life), and poured myself into the kids (which we both did) as a way to really avoid each other. We have both been left fallow for a long time (and actually both had many of the same feelings of aloneness, isolation, etc.)

I am standing up to her �bad behavior� now (and calling her on it when she gets angry with me or the kids, talks in a demeaning way, etc.) but am still struggling with whether this is all worth it and at all �fixable� (as I have days when I don�t think it is). I�m just feeling now like I�m in a rowboat but I�m the only one rowing (so we�re both traveling in circles).

I want to stay M to her because of our history (we�ve been together for � of our lives), kids, and that we do (despite all of this we�ve been through) enjoy each other�s company � I just question whether that�s �love� or really just friendship/companionship and if I could find love again with someone else. I also honestly can�t imagine life without seeing my kids everyday and putting them through a divorce and co-parenting situation (but maybe that would be better than living everyday in the house with our M what it currently is).

I keep going back to �what am I afraid of?� She couldn�t physically harm me, but I now know I�m probably turned this into a co-dependent relationship and I haven�t �let� myself be more than a paycheck/nanny/housecleaner to her (and probably, in her mind, someone who would never leave her, �no matter what�).

I�m certainly to blame as much (maybe not quite as much!) as she, as I really did �shut down� at some point emotionally, so I see how all this could have happened (and 6 months ago, I was the one buying divorce books at the end of my rope, in not seeing any hope for our M).

Here�s an excerpt from the chat I had with my W that might be illuminating (on the last day of our trip, when she was already back home after the ill-fated weekend away), which started up when she didn�t want to go to see our MC (though had made it sound like it was just a scheduling conflict) and then exploded into other things�

W: i thought you could at least give me a break this week when i've got such a big weekend coming up
W: i know this is important to you - you've said it a thousand times
W: but why does it have to come to me begging you to stop?
W: so even though you know it doesn't matter
W: you still have to push me
W: i told you why i couldn't go - a legitimate reason
W: but you still have to force my hand
W: why do i have to afraid to tell you that? - it's really unfair
Me: you don't have to be afraid, it just seems like it is never going to be a good time to do this
W: well - i can't do anytihng about that - you don't get it
W: i AM afraid to tell you because i don't want to see/hear your disappointment and then feel guilty
W: and i feel like no matter what i do it's never going to be enough - you will never forgive me and i am not willing to be punished
W: i am exhausted and stressed
W: i don't even feel like i can be myself around you
Me: why?
W: i don't know
W: i have to walk on eggshells - i always disappoint you somehow
W: you will never trust me - why don't you just admit it?
W: its becoming increasingly difficult for me to deal with it
W: i am not some criminal that needs to be punished
Me: I don't think that at ALL.
W: that is what i really feel like
W: maybe i am not meant to be married to anyone
(later)
W: I'm sorry, but all of that has been piling up
W: I am stressed, so it just erupted
W: I just wish you could be more intuitive when it comes to me
W: Sometimes it seems like you don't know me at all or don't care to

NLG

NLG,

The words of your W tell you that she does not want this marriage unless it totally supports her and her desires at the cost of everyone else. You don't need a degree in psych to see this.

You also said

Perhaps you should discuss this with her. What you need is her support and love and if you cannot get that from her, then your children would be better off with her in their lives on a parttime basis because she is treating them how to be treated by women.

Think about it.

JL

Have you considered that 300 miles becomes 150 miles when there is a central meeting place? Also, since you are checking her phone, maybe she has a prepaid phone and is baiting you with just a little usage on her cell? Waynerds are sneaky!! GF

If you want to see what failure of true, full exposure brings, read my thread 'I've Hit the Wall'.
I did a partial exposure - never exposed OM (I exposed before I discovered MB, so didn't know any better).
I'm convinced that contact has been made again. He lives 1,000 miles away. Distance doesn't matter. Now I'm just hoping to get proof, so I can expose properly. I won't make the same mistake again.

Had a good meeting with my IC yesterday (to be our MC at some point); she shared my perspective that my W appears to be (still) in a very selfish mode and not ready to �work� on anything (she is a little concerned that this new job has become her new �addiction�).

IC also suggested I give W a little space this week and that �pursuit� by me might be a foreign concept to her (given how disconnected we had gotten previously). (My IC did have one individual session with my W a few weeks ago, so has a bit of a window on her).

She also questioned why I chose someone so unavailable (which she linked to my mother, who is very much the same way), and why I have always looked after everyone else�s needs but myself (so my W�s lack of support for me is a bit on me as well, as honestly over the years I didn�t ASK for that support or getting my own needs met � hers, the kids, family, etc. were always put in front of my own).

She has been supportive lately in me getting out with friends, pursuing hobbies, etc., and I�ve actually resisted that at times.

Am going to talk to my W about MY needs (that I need her support/love, as Just Learning suggested) and that if she can�t give that to me, I need to make some other plans (can�t force her to love me and won�t go back to a �roommate� situation).

W does seem willing now to go to MC next week (she asked about my session yesterday), but know I can�t use our MC as my �crutch� to do the things I need to do/have the conversations I need to have with my W (good 2x4, btw � brought that up to our MC yesterday).

I have always been an �avoider� (am trying to work on it), but it�s the hardest thing for me to overcome (my W is a bit of an avoider, too, so definitely not a good combination)�know I have to start being stronger both for myself and my kids.

Hi NLG,

I had to take a break to do some things for my wife, including today the dentist to get some necessary treatment done.

I've read the updates on your thread here for the last couple of days, and I can say you have had in my opinion some of the best with better advice than I could give ya.

That being said, NLG, and I may not be saying this in exactly the way other more experienced members would, but it is you need to take a stand, and force her hand. That is for your protection and also your kids, and as well as for her's and your marriage. NLG, my simple understanding of the Marriage Builders principles is that if there is no pain, then no gain.

Okay, here is my first attempt to expound on MB principles at the onset of discovering an affair:

1) Exposure. You say there is "no point". There is. You seem to want immediate feedback. This will do it, but over a period of time in my opinion. She will be p*d at you, but if you do that, guess what, it will force her hand either way, and you will know then more than you do now how you should proceed. It will also KILL the affair much much much more than you can. At the very least, it will give you the offensive.

2) No Contact. This to me is like a letter to the IRS from tax cheaters who have been found out, and they are scared because they realize they have hurt themselves and someone very close to them (i.e, the other member of the 'married filing jointly' status - i.e husband or wife). She does not want to go to prison for her fraud, but the IRS, like the BH, is insisting on a letter pleading guilty to the fraud and siimply ending it.

I admire you NLG for assessing your own feelings, personality, and manner. However, that is probably best left for you and your IC to talk with instead of the members here. All we mainly know here is our own life experience. It is so good that you are doing that tho.

Now I will probably get some criticism for being too soft, maybe not. This is simply the best I can offer.

Just hoping the best for you,

Tom

Hi NLG,

Just checking.

How are You doing and how are you Two doing.

Me, doing well, just a little tired tonight from searching for a facility for my wife. Still lots to do but some progress.

I guess I have a little more luxury than you do in terms of relaxing and getting away from my problems and concerns. No kids at home anymore, and she is in a nursing home. So am going to make one of my favorite dinners now and watch either a baseball game or movie.

Please just keep upedating here, okay.

Tom

Hi Opt,

I just wanted to say hi to you at this point, but cannot find a recent post of yours. I suspect that you may be on another forum but I haven't checked.

Anyway, this is the only way I can think of to contact you and again just for the purpose of saying hello and wishing you my best.

Just briefly, I took C to that assisted care faciility Wed. and it looked good. Am looking at other places as well, but progress being made and she is at least encouraged.

Opt I suspect now that you are involved in D since I have not seen you post here lately. If so, then I wish you well and also as many prayers as often as I can.

Tom