OK, I just re-read and realized that it's your WIFE'S mom who is bipolar.

I'm not convinced your wife's mom is bipolar.

I say this because my husband's mom has been diagnosed and undiagnosed as bipolar several times. She has been on every med in the book. She has spent time in mental hospitals. And today, after YEARS of being on and off meds and convinced that she has a chemical imbalance, she is no longer on meds. She hasn't been for quite some time. She was on and off so many things THAT made her crazy. Literally. Plus her family history, which was not pretty. She is healthier than I've ever seen her. Especially mentally.

What she IS doing is a LOT more physical activity. She's now addicted to martial arts instead of drugs.

I suspect that your MIL is a drug addict and that your wife may be following the same pattern. Someone else early on threw that possibility out there. And it is definitely worth looking into.

The best "treatment" for an addict is for their family members to get the help that THEY need so that they stop enabling.

Just something else to consider.

I will likely be on medication all my life. Just my H will be on insulin all his life. H and I have things in our marriage that we need to work on, but H is a PRO at helping me manage BP:

1. He keeps at me gently but unwaveringly, encouraging me to talk when I want ot pull into my hole
2. He helps me when I get overwhelmed, but he also encourages me to continue doing things, recognizing when I do
3. He helps me put up a mental stop sign when my thoughts become obsessive
4. He runs intereference with my parents (sometimes they can be stressful)
5. He is loving, but he won't allow me to mistreat him - he removes himself from the room

As far as counseling goes, I spent a lot of time at first with a therapist who wanted to spend all this time dredging up my first feelsings of rejection as a child and how to embrace my hurts and blah blah blah....Pointless. DBT (Dialectical Behavior Therapy) is more more useful. It is behavior and problem-solving oriented.

I would recommend calling the Harley's for yourself and just see what recommendations they may have. Even if you and your wife don't do it together right away.

Thanks..."acceptance" is a better strategy...I'll remember that...
I've mentioned this in past posts, and will again in case you missed it or overlooked it...i do tend to be long winded...

a little background first...a little more detail

I met my wife after I got out of the Navy in '96...we dated for about a year and a half...I knew her mother, but I don't recall her being "bipolar" at the time...she was married and later divorced...and not sure if it was bipolar related.

At the time I didn't know what depression looked like...I imagined someone crying all the time, in bed and suicidal...that was my image.

My wife and I were married 3 years before we started having kids...Our relationship was great, the real only complaint I had was that she wasn't very affectionate and she rarely initiated SF, but she always responded to my initiations for affection and SF.

After we had our first child, she started experiencing depression...again me not being familiar with depression didn't think much of it...she went on medication and she responded well and we went on living our lives...and had two more kids...looking back she would come off her meds while pregnant because she was afraid of side effects for the baby, and I would notice her being moody and not herself...but I attributed it to her pregnancy...she would always return to her meds after birth.

Again, our marriage was by all my indications, doing good...was it perfect...no, but we got along, had good conversation, still great sex (I still had to play the initiator), went on dates together, bible studies together...we had then a good relationship.

Then she got convinced to see an "alternative medicine doctor", I referred to him as the "witch doctor" and he encouraged her she needed to come off her meds, so with the help of her doctor she did (but the doctor still monitored her) and the "witch doctor" put her on all these "supplements" .

Soon, once she was medicine free and out of her system, she started experience depression...I saw this in her...but the "witch doctor" assured her to "stay the course" the all these "poisons" in her system were being expelled from her body by these "supplements"...but I tell you she became the devil...you couldn't talk with her, she was defensive, irritable about everything!

Then one day, I come home from work and she'd been crying all day and she wants a separation...why? She can't live like this anymore, it's not me personally, nothing I'm doing, she's just sick of life...she hates who she's become...

My wife went back to her doctor yesterday and here's what she learned...studies have shown that when someone comes off medication for depression it takes longer for the body to balance itself back out...So we are in our 7th month of her being back on her meds...So it's going to take some time for her body to balance back out.

Yep, me too. I invite people to make the same comparison with my date of registration.

I'd just like to point out that Dr Harley is not a medical doctor. You seem to be under the impression that he is. He is a psychologist.

That's a good question, but from my point of view... while she was on her medication, she seemed like she was happy and herself...we did things together and as a family, had your normal arguments...but being "numb"...i don't know...i didn't think meds were supposed to make one into a zombie?

you're right...i get psychiatrist and psychologist mixed up sometime...thanks.

Well, if the meds worked, why did she come off? What caused her to seek out the "witch doctor" as you call him?

I was on meds for depression but they made me feel either totaly numb and drugged out or extremely jumpy. I preferred the feelings of depression to the side effects of the drugs.

But I do not believe I had a chemical imbalance.

If this came on after she had the first baby, it was probably postpartum depression. Going off during pregnancy may have caused some problems, but as you say, it could have been the pregnancy hormones too.

How old are your kids again?

I accepted a job in another State and we through Church we made friends with other couples...My wife met a lady and became good friends with her...well, they are into this whole "organic" foods and "alternative medicine" stuff and they had good things to say about the alternative medicine doctor that they and their kids go to.

My wife has always dealt with migraine headaches and her friend recommended that she try this doctor...so she did and he told her to stop eating chocolate (which she loves) and stop all these foods she's been eating and that the flu shots we've been taking every year is poisoning us and the medications she was on for depression is harming her body...

So she comes home, we discuss it and she decides to give it a shot...only we had to stop treatment, b/c insurance didn't cover him and all the supplements she was on were overly expensive!
our kids are 8, 5 and 4...

Wow. Did she at least taper off the meds, or did she quit them all at once? Because if she quit them all at once, you're lucky this is all you've had to deal with.

Some so-called doctors should be shot. I'm all for natural therapies and knowing everything you can about what you put in your body, but ... argh.

Yes, if she was stable on meds for a long time, and then quit - ESPECIALLY if she quit cold turkey - it will take a while to even back out. But I would be terribly concerned still about a doc giving her ritalin for low energy. That's nuts.

It wasn't cold turkey, but she was off within a month...so that's pretty close to being cold turkey...now that you mention that, I forgot about the adverse side effects that she had to deal with coming off the medications...I'm sure that had a lot to do with her moods and again, myself not understanding depression/medication/side effects, probably didn't help matters any...

On a side note, after I got the "I want a separation" I was pretty distraught...i had a physical and was talking to my family physician and told him about what was happening...he put me on Cymbalta...I was scared to take it, but I did...It did help with my anxiety and the side effect for me sexually was that I could last a whole lot longer than before...and the "O's" weren't as satisfying...

I was on it for 3 months and said enough...I stopped cold turkey...wow...i had these "brain zaps" (only way I can explain it) for 4 months afterwards...not fun stuff to come off of.

Well, if she was on something pharmaceutical before, and was fine, and then stopped, and got really crazy, that says something right there. That's why I asked. Initially it sounded like you were having problems both on and off the meds and that perhaps the meds were causing the problem. And they may still be.

Is she under the care of a psychiatrist (that's an MD)?

I would try to get the system back under some control and begin using MB while she gets better. Just know that it may be some while before she will be capable of stepping up and meeting your needs too.

I for one have found choclate (dark chocolate with an espresso bean preferably) to work wonders on my headaches.

Sorry I have been all over the map today with suggestions. Just repsonding to all the different things you've been throwing out.

yes, she has been for about 3 years now and the psychiatrist was the one that recommended a therapist after this last episode when she came off her meds.

yep, that's what the plan is...although i can tend to be impatient if i don't see any progress, but like her doctor said...when someone goes off medication and goes back on, studies have shown where it takes even longer for the body to level back out...
no problem, it takes awhile to unpack the situation, and really everyone has been a big help...especially in regard to recognizing that depression can be more than just what I imagined.

I thnk you need to buy your wife some chocolate

Ever since my last post to you I've been craving it. And it DOES help with seratonin levels too I think.

When I was pregnant with my third child, I was a major mental case for the first trimester. I have never experienced anything like it. I know you're a guy and won't really understand how PMS can be emotionally and even physically debilitating, but I have begun experiencing this as I've gotten older, and the only thing that gets me through is knowing it will only last a day or two. Well, being pregnant was like PMS only it got successively worse with each day. The anxiety symptoms were absolutely unbearable. I was at the point of being willing to take any drugs possible just to be able to function again. And then, quite by accident, I discovered the wonderful pharmaceutical benefits of dark chocolate. If I ate a small amount of dark chocolate as I started feeling the "mood" coming on, I could stave it off. Ultimately this stage of my pregnancy faded into the second trimester and I became semi-normal again. But even now when I start to feel one of those moods edging in, if I have dark chocolate it helps me tremendously.

It's fun to suggest it to people, but I do so in all seriousness too. I can't say enough about how chocolate has helped me. But I'm also not a chocoholic either. It can be abused

Caffeine is a double edges sword. A bit can elevate mood and energy. Too much messes us up. When I was in the hospital a few weeks ago, I wasn't allowed caffeine, and my head hurt the entire time. Now I am trying to be moderate. Same with chocolate, although I don't like it the way I used to.

PMS, BP, lithium, effexor, synthroid...it's fun being a crazy female.

Mr. Anderson,

I hope you and your wife can work this out, for the sake of your family. I too have serious depression and it is one of the pieces that has led to the destruction of my marriage. When a person is depressed, they truly are not themselves. On the outside they may actually appear quite fine, not like the commercials (don't compare). On the inside, they are dying. It took over two years for my depression to be diagnosed and many, many more for it to be "controlled". I spent years and years wishing I would just die; I can't describe it. Even now there are times I struggle (this is one which is why your post is hitting me so hard). I take Welbutrin XL for my depression. I have taken other meds that left me absolutely numb but this one is better. I know depression is a hard thing to deal with, but your wife is truly sick if she is depressed. She and you both need help to learn how to cope.

Hey, Mr. Anderson, how are things going?

To be honest, I�m the one that has a tendency towards AO (something I am working on, per my example).

My wife hardly ever AO (per the MB�s definition)�her tendency is more of a subtle DJ, in which puts me in a position to defend myself�

I�m learning that I have a choice to respond to the DJ or let it go�sometimes I let it go or ask her to drop it�for example�

We�re Orthodox Christian and our worship services are normally 2 hours and we stand the majority of the time�during our Easter season, the week of Easter is our Holy Week and services can be up to 4 hours long�standing all but maybe 15 minutes�we have 3 kids (9,6 & 5)�Our 9 year-old we�re trying to get him to participate more.

Well, we were driving home after a long 4 hour service and my wife mentions that our 9 year-old was sitting and laying around on the pew�I said yeah, I had him stand a few times (mainly during the Gospel readings), but it was a long service, even my feet were hurting.

My wife: �He needs to do better participating during service�
My wife: �Son, you need to start participating more�you�re 9 years old�
My wife: �It�s your job to direct him, since he�s sitting next to you.�
Me: �Yep, you�re right, and when I notice him sitting I always get him up, but towards the end of the service I let him sit I could tell he was tired� (it was a 4-hour service).

Now the conversation turns from my son, to me�

My wife: �Well you need to do a better job, if you can�t instruct him, I�ll do it.�
Me: �He does good during our regular services, this service was 4 hours�I�ll do better next time�
My wife: �But you understand it�s your job as his father to instruct him, we�ve had this conversation before�If I need to take on the role of instructing him I will.�

At this point I can feel myself feeling the need to defend myself, in other words an AO is coming on.

Me: �I hear you �tina�, now please drop it.�

See, this is how she DJ�s me and draws me into an AO and an argument�It was a long 4 hour service�so my 9 year-old started sitting down at 9pm when he is normally in bed at 8:30pm and I let him slide a little�the service wasn�t over until 10pm!


My personality is to �internalize�, my wife�s personality is to �externalize��she will say what�s on her mind, even if it�s a foot in mouth moment�it seems her mouth is way ahead of her brain and she doesn�t realize�how she put something, just really offended me�I felt attacked�instead of looking at the situation, she has to overly be critical�I�m good at accepting �constructive criticism�, but there�s a fine line between being constructive criticism and being hateful and degrading.

If I�m not careful, my wife will walk over me, she has a more dominate personality than I do�I�m too laid back, and easy going�

On a side note: Even my friends notice her domineering personality and have mentioned to me that they are surprised I�ve lasted this long with her.

Is there a such a thing as being too much of a nice guy and women with the type of personality as my wife see that as a weakness and out of needing a stronger mate, they react in an unbecoming manner?

The rest of your email is helpful and I�m trying to work on being more assertive and really, really, trying to stay in tune to my attitude when a discussion with her becomes tense�so far, I�ve been succeeding�but I feel like she�s still walking over me�

Thanks again ChrisInNOVA.

mra, how about being honest, that you feel like you're being judged disrespectfully, and according to the Four Guidelines to Successful Negotiations, to preserve the love in your marriage, you would like to table the discussion until you two can discuss it without LBs? I know for myself, I can't POJA after 9pm, so I would have had to ask to table the discussion when it started. Because otherwise I find myself, like you, appearing to agree with stuff that I disagree with. Y'all can do this!

Good for you Mr A!


I am no expert but from what you conveyed ...what I see in this particular example is you explaining why you allowed Little Mr A to sit and her not acknowleding your reasons + her telling you that you need to do your job as his father, provide him with instruction, and you should have had him stand. Then you asked her to drop it and shut down the opportunity for communication completey.

One thing Mr A: Your wife can't draw you into an AO. The choice to AO is yours and yours alone. Please understand that. If you can understand that, you'll be leaps and bounds closer to eliminating that particular LB. Recall that the ultimate goal is to get the DJs from her & the AOs from you reduced and then gone. It's going to take work and part of that work is truly realizing and accepting what you are respnsible for and what you are not responsible for. You're not there yet if you can type "See, this is how she DJ�s me and draws me into an AO and an argument." You cannot justify responding to an LB from your spouse with MORE of an LB. (Her DJ makes me want to AO!) I think that the way to respond to an LB is assertively working to eliminating it. I have experienced that sometimes this means verbally saying things like:

+NO. Please do not talk to me / treat me that way.
+I feel ___ when you treat me / talk to me that way.
+Here's how I would like to be treated

Sometimes this means taking action to demonstrate you mean business by what you're saying above.

With me, it was / is a combination of all of these.



I disagree. I think that you & Mrs A have not learned to interact in respectful, relationship-building ways.

I am not familiar with your story. How is Mrs A involved in MB?


Please stop giving your friends the opportunity to speak about your wife this way. Not only is it disrespectful - but it withdraws units from your Love Bank for her without her even being present!


I think you & Mrs A need to find new ways of interacting which are respectful and which serve to bring you closer together.



Keep working. Have you read The Dance of Anger? It may give you some insight into quite a few of your wife's behaviors. You said that you have AO as a problem of yours. I am a wife who was subjected to AOs and I can tell you , I had lots of resentment and tried to control thingsin other (indirect) ways to get my dignity back. I saw some of myself in that book. You may see some of your wife there & it may help you as well.





Anytime, Mr A...I'm just sharing. Please remember I am not an expert.