So H and I were talking a lot the past week. We have been having some great serious discussions about what went wrong in our marriage and what went right. We even expanded some horizons about SF and talked a great deal about friendship lacking.

So last night, he called and we met up and talked some more (until 1:30). Now I'm just back to confusion and devastation. I don't know what to really think.

He recognizes that I am trying very hard to make changes in myself that will better me as a person. He knows that I have always and will always love him and said so. He knows that I am truly regretful for my actions and that I have never told him any other lies except dealing with the money situation that made him finally leave.

BUT he also says that our friendship disappeared, that I didn't pay enough attention to him and that I lacked passion for life that he really wants. He says that he wants to get younger and it seems like I want to grow older. Well, I'm 43 and growing older, enjoying grandchildren and peace and quiet on occassion is something that I do enjoy. BUT I didn't want to do that without him.

He says that I have my friend because I told him that I really didn't want to lose my friend, my best friend. But that he can't be my best friend at this point because he just can't trust me right now. He says that the trust will come and we can be best friends. If we decide at that point to date or have some type of relationship like that, then so be it, but he is not going to say yes and he is not going to say no until we see what happens along the way.

I am still going to work on myself and make changes to be a better person. I am still going to work through the MB program and make every attempt to show him my lov, respect, admiration and to hope that he will change his mind and see that we CAN make this work.

He did say that the piece of paper (marriage liscence) is not something he can see ever wanting again at this point. He just doesn't think he wants to be married. But he is open to a relationship if we choose to do that in the future.

Please does anyone have any guidance at this point? I'm so lost. I want the changes to be a better person. But I want the love of my life as well. I also want to get back to him being my best friend because I miss him in that aspect just as much if not more than I miss him as my H.

He is still living with his mom, but says that he is saving to move out at some point. And he says that he will not be able to afford to file to "get rid of that paper" until mid-2011 at the earliest. So that gives me some time but I do need some guidance. I need a reality check here about what I should and should not do.

Oh and he said I can call, text, email him ANYTIME I want for ANY reason....whether taht is to talk about our life together, the weather or even another man, I can call him and he will be there. But he wanted me to know, if he tells me he is busy at that point, I have to accept that and wait for him to get back to me. He promised he WILL get back to me each and every time. So he is still keeping that communication open between us. Is that a good thing? In my mind it is, but I just want some verification that I'm not thinking wrong.

I forgot to add.

He said that we CAN continue to see each other from time to time. We CAN continue to talk all the time, no problem. We CAN see where that leads, but he WANTS our friendship first and the rest to be secondary. And he wants me to tell him anytime I'm uncomfortable with anything regarding the newfound dynamic between the two of us so that we can discuss it and decide what to do about it or if it is really not going to be a problem.

I do know that I really have missed the conversations like the ones we have been having for the past week or so. Where we REALLY discuss things and hear what each other is saying. That is really nice to be back to that part at least.

I can't remember your original story (it's easiest for those advising you if you keep all your story in one post), however, are you SURE there is no affair going on here?

What he's saying almost sounds like textbook wayward, cake-eating speak. He doesn't want to seem a bad guy so he'll stay 'friends' with you. In particular:



this gives me pause. If he is in withdrawal he would want nothing to do with you, then friendship with you wouldn't matter because he would want absolutely nothing to do with you, he wouldn't care about you. That is the definition of withdrawal: apathy.

However, if he is in an affair, if you get into a relationship with another man, then he's free and clear. It means the relationship is 'over' and he can assuage his guilt for 'hurting' you because you've gone out and found someone else too. See the ideal situation for a wayward is to have 2 people meeting his needs and for the betrayed spouse to show no pain. He can have his mistress meeting his need for SF and you to be a friend with. If you're friends with him then he can't be that bad a guy.

I know you said in the other thread that there's no affair, but these statements concern me a great deal. You marriage is more than a piece of paper! And the first one...does he understand that what he wants is physically impossible? Those are the words of a mid-life-crisiser.

Besides being so unforgiving over the money thing, have there been indications of MLC from him? You may have just handed him an out that he was already looking for.

(how bad was it, the bills? You forgot to pay the electric and it was turned off, or you didn't pay his truck note and it got repo'd? Wow, my mom did that last one to my step-dad. He wound up arrested for it after they couldn't repo it because he was always working out of town. My mother complained he was always angry at her. ya think?)

I wish I had more help for you...I just don't want to see you expending a lot of energy addressing things that aren't the problem. Of course you need to keep working on being the best you, for you.

Well, I had replied and lost that post. Daw gone it.

K. The bills. Here's the really bad part. I didn't pay the bill for a judgement that was required per month for a few months. Though I told him I had. Now they are garnishing his paycheck each week rather than making monthly payments. We have decided to file a ch 13 bankruptcy to reorganize and that will alleviate the garnishment. BUT it ticked him off to say the least. That was the last straw so to speak.

I DO KNOW that there is no affair. Period. He has shown me email, texts and call history on phone. This was because he "wanted me to know that this has nothing to do with anyone but us. Period"

MLC? Well, not sure actually. He says he wants to be "20 again" to do things and be out and about all the time, to fight age with all his might and that I am content sitting in the house or doing hobbies. This is not something he wants to do, grow older gracefully. So that is a point of contention with him. His mom actually has asked him about the MLC thing to. LOL. He told me so and was really frustrated by not being able to make her think it's not. Does he want a younger woman? No. Does he have anyone in mind? No and he is not looking.

I do believe that I actually get where he's coming from with the "other man" thing. But not positive, just a feeling here. See, we met when I was 15 and dating his best friend. Him and I would talk all the time about my then-boyfriend and his then-girlfriend. We would commiserate when we needed it or celebrate things as friends together. He was my best friend for three years during that time. He would ALWAYS be there with a shoulder to cry on or a hug or even someone to release the tension and get me to laugh. He was my best friend when we were dating too. The one person I turned to for everything. During our marriage, that has somehow slipped away from us at least partially. He is still my best friend, the one I want to turn to, but I don't always turn to him. I don't always ask his advice, sometimes I call a girlfriend or sometimes I just commiserate myself rather than worry him over something. I think he was saying that he wants that friendship back, that ability to talk about anything, anyone, anytime, anywhere without worrying that the other person is going to react badly. Again, don't know for sure, but just my feeling on that. And I miss that close friendship too, so I understand him saying he wants us to be best friends again. The other thing with that, or the other side of the coin so to speak, is I will not begin looking for anyone for a very, very long time if ever if this relationship does not work out. I can HONESTLY say that. I can't even begin to think that far ahead without seeing us together doing something and being a couple. Why? Because he is my soul mate, the one person I have always loved, the one person I have always trusted, the one person I have always wanted to spend my life with. I have NEVER had the interest to even look at another man. I can't see that changing anytime soon, if ever. That's just not me.

The "piece of paper". He has always said that a marriage is not a piece of paper, it is a feeling, a commitment, a deep seeded love and want and need. He has always been pretty clear that the paper and the ceremony mean not much to him, it's the relationship that leads up to and continues after that one day and that one paper that mean that much to him. I will never know if he ever would have married me if he knew that I would be happy living together forever to tell you the truth. That's why he wants to get rid of the paper. I'm just hoping he wants to get back to the relationship. That's my hope and prayer on that one.

oh, I took the EN questionairre then talked it over with him over the phone. The sad thing is: I hit almost everyone of them on the head when I tried to answer with what I thought he would say and why I thought he would say that. I failed miserably in my mind and his. That is terrible! But I now know what I did wrong and what I need to prove to him and how he needs to have is EN met. That is something right??

I wanted to add this.

But here's the thing...all along he has never told me flat out that he wants a divorce. He has said he is done fighting, he is tired of trying...when I asked him point blank is this heading to divorce he said it was a "good possibility" when I asked him just the other day when he was going to file because I explained that I did not want a divorce, I will not fight him on it because I love him and want him to be happy, but since I do not want it I am not going to pay for it....he said that "well, I won't be able to come up with that kind of money til at least the middle of 2011 or even late 2011." But he has never flat out told me, I want a divorce. My counselor says that this is odd in that most people, especially men, when they decide that they want a divorce they are more than happy to tell the spouse this information and anyone else who will listen. According to his mom and a few friends that I know he has talked with, he has not said it to them in that way either...just says the same things to them that he does to me.

Please....does anyone have any advice to offer?

Today he showed up at the house. He had a tow out here that had to go back to town and he had gotten soaked. So he stopped here for a dry pair of jeans. Anyhow, then he texted me once during the day with a picture of the clouds. After work, I texted and asked how his day was...he said lousy. I ended up after a minute asking him if he was okay cause he was being very short. He said he was pissed. I asked if it was with me and he said no so I told him I was here if he wanted to talk.

Then just a few minutes ago I asked if he was busy and he said yes. So I told him to have a good night.

I'm just confused by so much stuff going on and I need to see if anyone can tell me any advice or if they feel that we are doing good or bad or what....I just need someone to talk to me please. I'm lonely and scared. I really miss him.

I don't know if this is much help, but my gut in reading these posts is that there is def. hope for you guys to be able to work on stuff. The way he is acting is a little how I acted when I was fed up with my H and not willing to be vulnerable with him. Veterans and others will be able to help more, but it really sounds like you are on the right track. If my H told me he was paying bills and was lying, that would be enough for me to leave. I would be really hesitant to reconcile. I don't think that should make you feel worse, because that is how I would act and I would still care about him and I would act/say that stuff and NOT be having an affair. It sounds like you know that what you did was really really terrible, does he know that you recognize this? Is there any way you can come up with the money to pay off the judgment so that they can stop taking his wages? That is just a constant reminder of what you did...Are you deeply remorseful, or just sorry it made him leave? Was he doing something that made you want to "get back at him" by being so dishonest? What else was going on there?

Anyway, I think there is hope. It sounds like there is still love/caring there. Hopefully my post wasn't too hurtful...you sound like a really motivated spouse.

Okay, I went back and read your original post. Your husband is being so responsive! You sound like you are doing your best. You hurt him a lot and he can't commit to coming back. Just keep at it and give him time. Keep going to therapy. You have to be patient. It may take months or years of you doing the right thing day after day to get him to come home. It sounds like you guys are talking a lot and giving each other a lot of undivided attention. The fact that he is doing that with you is awesome. Keep up the good work.

Wannatry,

To answer your questions: We are actually going to file a ch 13 bankruptcy to reorganize the money situation. This is something that I had been suggesting for two years, but he would not budge on. Now that he is not living here, he comes up with the idea so I jumped right on board with that.

I DO know that it was really terrible. I regret it so deeply I don't know how to even express it to tell ya the truth because just saying it seems inadequate.

Want to get back at him? No, just wanted to relieve some pressure. See, he has a very quick temper....not that he would ever do anything physical, just gets mad very quickly and takes a while to get over it. I don't like to cause strife on purpose and I was trying to keep him out of the loop so to speak in order to avoid conflict and to keep a loving relationship. That BACKFIRED drastically. Now I am paying for it with everything I am. NEVER again!

Your post wasn't too hurtful, just truthful and I appreciate that. I have made a promise (in my therapy sessions) to myself to always be 100% honest with everyone all the time and not to try to avoid conflict by softening any blows any longer. I will NEVER do that again....NEVER.

And thank you for going to read the original.. I really appreciate that too. I plan to keep doing what I'm doing at this point and hope and pray.

Oh, and I wanted to add....I have begun (the day he left) keeping a thought journal. This was the suggestion of my therapist that very first day that I called him and went in emergency. He said that I could go back and read and actuallly see my progress through this learning period.

I do have to say that I have been back and read several times already. LOL. Anyhow, I can SEE changes throughout the journal in my attitude and in my way of speaking and in my thought processes. I am learning a great deal about myself and the way I tick so to speak.

It has been an interesting journey. And I plan to keep that journal up, no matter what. I think that it will be a great reward to myself for the hard work to revisit the first few entries in a year or so and be able to "see" my progress through my own mind.

Cami, thanks for explaining. It really sounds like he still has love for you. That is SOO huge. I am not an MB expert, but my thought is that you do everything to fill his love bank for as long as it takes for him to agree to actively work on your marriage and then you guys can work together on your issues of him losing his temper. It may not excuse his behavior, but it sounds like it is something that needs to change for you guys to have a great marriage. I wouldn't bring it up for now though (don't take only my advice if others disagree). I would focus on yourself and expressing to your H how sorry you are and how you are taking active steps to change. I read about some pretty crappy relationships, yours sounds really hopeful. You guys are still depending on each other for one of the most important ENs: intimate conversation. To make it even better I would attempt to have lots of conversation that doesn't center on your relationship or what went wrong. Just talk about your day, thoughts and feelings. Don't pressure him, just enjoy his company and talking to him. Be gentle with yourself, you messed up, but mostly because you chose to lie instead of confront and negotiate with your husband about his temper etc. You aren't a bad person, you just need to develop and practice skills that will improve your marriage and your life (giving your son clear and focused rules and boundaries is such an awesome first step, I bet your husband is proud and impressed). You really sound like you are making those changes. Keep it up and I would not be surprised if this story has a happy ending.

Thank you so much! I really was beginning to think I may be going crazy or something.

One thing I did forget to mention in my post and this may make a difference in how you feel, but he told me the other night when talking that "right now there is no us, there is a you and there is a me" I told him I was going to keep trying to give that an us again. He said okay. And he was still responsive after that for more conversation. So that may mean something more than what my interpretation was, but my interpretation was that he wanted me to keep trying to re-create an us.

Also he told me that he never wanted to hear me use the word sorry again. He said it is making me sound weak and vulnerable which he is fully aware that I am neither (he doesn't realize that right now I am both LOOL) But he wants me to explain what I do and let it lye .

And thanks for your advice! I am definately going to keep trying and moving forward. I love my husband, I respect him, admire him, miss him terribly and emotionally cannot see my life without him at this point.

ok, this makes me believe there is an affair in the woodpile. The fact that he showed you this tells me he staged it to put you on the wrong trail.

I bet if you have him followed one night you will find an affair.

Cami, you need to start doing some sleuthing and dig out the truth before you can fix this.

Here's my thing with all of this. I asked him if he was having an affair point blank when he was here visitng. He said he didn't understand why everyone keeps saying that and he just showed me the stuff. I don't know that he would have volunteered it without me saying that or not. But I do believe him. I really do. I know that may sound crazy to alot of you....but I still have that faith in him in that manner.

He has NOT been on dates as of yet. He states that he is not looking and he has been working so much lately that I doubt he could have had time to look anyhow. They have been very busy!

We had that best friend thing going for a long time. It is my fault as much as his that we lost it. I DO know that I want my best friend back, even if we do not end up with each other....I miss my friendship with him. That's the thing.

I am getting on with my life as best I can. I am making changes that make me a better person and make ME feel good. So regardless of how this turns out, I can be the me I want to be. That will not change.

I do know that I have spoken with him about a change or two that has occured and he has said, "don't tell me, show me". So I called him tonight and he is in the truck out of town, but we are going to get together and go for a walk at the lake. That will be nice, it is one of the things that we used to do long ago. I miss those types of things. He agreed that he misses them too. So I'm throwing in little things that are fun, that I used to enjoy and he did too, that give us time to talk and get to know the persons we are today vs who we were then. I'm hoping the conversation brings us closer as friends even if it doesn't bring us back together as a couple.

Like I keep saying, not sure if this is right or wrong as pertaining to the couple relationship, but I am doing what I think is right for me....hoping it is right for us as a couple as well, but accepting that it is right for our friendship.

Does that make sense??

I have to say that I visit one other board and over there one of the gals was giving me advice. She is very straightforward which I do appreciate, but the last response from her basically said to let it go because he really does want to end the marriage. That has set me back in my thinking quite a bit and I'm not sure how I feel about that.

I want to be friends with him no matter what. I want to keep trying to work on the couple relationship as well. But I AM going to make the changes and I AM doing this for me.

I just somehow think that hope has been helping me along the way, now I'm not sure about the hope being there. From what you have said, I see the hope, I see the good things along with the bad and I still have hope for the couple relationship...but again, she is straightforward and well, she's bluntly told me to basically get over him and move on. That really hurt and scared me even more.

Please, tell me the truth, am I crazy to see hope in this situation? Am I crazy to keep talking to him and showing him the changes that will make me better as a person in hopes that it brings him back around to the couple relationship??

He has NOT filed, he has NOT got the money to file and doesn't anticipate that for several months and the only reason that I know this is because I asked him flat out when he planned to file if he was really going to do this because I was not going to end the marriage because I didn't wnt the divorce and I would not be the one to file period. He HAS told me that divorce is a "good possiblity" and that he is "done" but not when saying thw word divorce, only when talking about the problems we have had , he has NOT been on dates, he has NOT been looking for someone else, he HAS come to me for EN and SF not someone else, he IS agreeing to meet and go for walks, he IS still talking with me and confiding things about work and life with me, he IS still staying at his mom's and complaining that he hates it there but can't afford to move out, he IS still giving me money every week to help with some bills,.

I talked to his mom and she says that, if he is still talking to me rather than telling me to ##ck off and hanging up, that is a good sign, it is positive. And she is seeing changes herself in me that please her and that he has complained to her about for a few years (yeasrs? well, I was too stubborn or blind to see the requests as being something that was driving him away and NOW I DO see!)

Please. Just help me understand. Please.

There is hope. He is not acting like someone who is done. Even if he is done there is STILL hope. Someone else can give you advice about this...but I am not sure if you two should be sleeping together unless he has actively agreed to work on your marriage...that seems off to me. I don't know...

Um...how does one "move on" easily after being with someone for 25 years? Of course it isn't crazy to work on things. Have you shown him any of the MB material? What does he think?

I haven't shown him the material, however I HAVE went over some of it with him LOL> I filled it out with what I thought he would say on the EN and the LB worksheets. Then, on the ones I failed, I explained why I thought he would put those things there, then I did the same with the things that I thought I did not fail and explained why.

Then I called him and said that I was working on this thing so that I could bring to my own attention what was going on and what I needed to work on and wondered if he would listen and tell me what he thought. He agreed. We spent quite a bit of time going over the worksheet and what I had put as answers and explanations. The thing is, I nailed all but a couple of them and he was impressed that I actually recognized this and told me so. Then I explained that I was going to work on making myself better at the lacking things because I wanted to feel good about myself and he said, don't tell me, show me.

That has become his standard on some questions...on others he expands, but he wants me to show him the changes by doing them and living them, not just tell him. I get that.

Anyway, thank you for responding. And please, I appreciate your adivce!!

Oh, and one little celebration here. Now, I KNOW this is not the right way to lose weight or at least it wasn't at first when I couldn't eat because everything came up with my nerves and all.

BUT I have lost 30.6 lbs since the last time I was in the docs office before this all happened back in the middle of April. So that works for me! The only part that hasn't been good was, in the first two weeks that he left, I lost 10 lbs of that...but the rest has been done right.

Eating less, exercising more, fixing meds with the doc and making myself feel better.