Hi, I'm unsure if I'm posting this in the right place. I stumbled on this website about four weeks ago and have been fascinated. I hope I'm not jumping in prematurely but because I have enjoyed and related so well to all I've read, more so than anywhere else, I was hoping I could learn a lot here.

I am currently seperated from my husband of 9 years. We have 3 children. I have been trying to get through to him for years and it's felt as though I can't get through to him. I'm realizing I am not perfect either and am trying to understand my part in this. I'm just unsure where to go from here and hoped someone could help me gain some insight/clarity or give some perspective in a way I haven't thought of.

Soon into our marriage, things began to happen that would hurt. My husband has a tendency to be selfish and thoughtless. I realize that because I was in a "giver" mode, I didn't speak up as much as I should have. Well, I shouldn't say that, I certainly tried. Allow me to explain, he'd do things like go to happy hour saying he'd be home by 7 and not come home til midnight, not answer his phone if I called, etc. Certainly, I'd tetter between being mad and worried. I wouldn't let myself get fuming mad because in the back of my head, I'd be worried he was in a car wreck or something of the sort. He has a tendancy to drink a little too much when he goes out and after a few drinks, he doesn't care about anything other than himself. At the time, I didn't fully see his selfishness but took it very personally. You see, when he'd finally come home, before I could say a word, he'd come in ready to fight....throwing accusations, blame, horrible name calling and the like. I'd cry immediately as I couldn't understand any of this. Before you know it, guess what? I'd do anything to get him to stop saying whatever he was saying so we never really talked about how his staying out like that affected me. The nights he'd be home at 7 and arrive at midnight turned to middle of the night or not come home til morning....he always came home mad telling me what *I* did that justified him doing that. Again, I didn't "dish it back" because I was so hurt/sucked in, I bought these reasons. Mind you, after the fact, I'd realize this wasn't right. Inside I knew I hadn't done whatever he was saying and couldn't understand how hours before all was well....then suddenly because he didn't come home, I was horrible. The times I'd try to bring it up days later, I was met with more anger. Well, eventually it hurt more to try and bring it up.

With the above said, this wouldn't happen every weekend. Trust me, once is too much but I don't want to exaggerate my point of view. The first three years of marriage, it would happen monthly or every other month. The time in between was nice but the anxiety of "next time" would linger in me although I tried to hide it. One time, the last time, I couldn't take this type behavior again. We had one child and I was pregnant at the time. When he came home in the morning, I couldn't speak anymore. I couldn't cry and I didn't care about the stuff he was saying. I was numb. On monday while he was at work, I packed up and left. I told him that once he addressed his drinking and I saw some real changes we could talk, until then there was nothing to say. That I could no longer accept his one sided way of thinking, etc.

He did the work or so I thought. After three months of sobriety and working with a counselor, I returned home thinking the problems would be better. They weren't. I realized that although the drinking wasn't there and so he wasn't staying out like before or going out for that matter, certain behaviors that existed went unnoticed because in my eyes, if he just wouldn't do this one thing, all would be fine. Needless to say, it got harder and harder to be the giving. I felt it wasn't returned. Two years ago, the drinking returned. He isn't an everyday drinker....a binge drinker about once every few months. He wasn't going out and staying out but his anger would flare. He never let me forget how I left but he seemed to foget why I left. I remained the type who didn't dish it back and I still would just cry at the creul things he could say. Worse, my confidence was absent. When I would try to talk about MY feelings, it was always turned around, an opportunity for him to lash out, he didn't realize I wasn't criticizing him but was wanting some attention. I'd try to explain this, over and over. I'd leave conversations confused, more hurt and sorry for bringing anything up. But see, this only happened when I tried to talk about me. If I was adoring and appearing very content, I was the best thing ever. When I'd try to express a hurt, I was suddenly a punching bag. He seems to archieve everything and during an outburst, unloads it all, past to present. About a year ago, his outbursts turned physical. No, he never punched me in the face....it was grabbing arms, holding me down, pinning me up against the wall by my throat, blocking the door so I couldn't leave, etc. Again, the next day he might acknowledge that he shouldn't "get so mad" but he wouldn't tolerate my trying to say more. It's as if I was an "ungrateful you know what" if I didn't accept his attempt at an apology the way it was. The last time a year ago, I was so scared, I left in the middle of the night and vowed to NEVER return.

I wouldn't speak to him for weeks. I wouldn't answer a call, message, text, email, etc. It was very difficult but I needed that time to discover my feelings without him telling me what "they really are." When we finally did speak, I spoke and asked him to do nothing but listen. He did. I told him I didn't want to speak again for a week, I wanted him to think it over. He did. He agreed to my terms which were I would consider counseling if I could pick the counselor and he said to the counselor "my wife thinks I'm abusive" and we were to see the same counselor seperately until the counselor deemed it safe for us to speak together.

After a three month process which was painful to me, we began together. In those three months, I realized a lot about myself. MY poor behaviors, how I could have made different choices, not let his behavior control me but, WALK away and not return until he could control himself, etc. Instead, I was staying until I couldn't anymore then storming off. Although I realize many people would in those shoes as well....I could have done things different too. I'm not playing the victim, I am not a victim but I was a willing participant. I didn't deserve his poor treatment at times but I didn't have to "take" it that way either.

We ended up under same roof once again. Within two months, I felt dupped. I began feeling it was manipulation on his part to get me under the same roof. I do admit I felt pressure to be under the same roof FAST. He let me know how much he hated it, tried to not place demands or conditions but they were there just the same, just in a quiet way.

Throughout the past six months, I have tried kindly to express my needs effictively. Although he isn't drinking or being physical or LOUD outbursts in the old way....the "turn around" and blame and inability to take what I'm saying as an opportunity to learn or be helpful or present to me is still absent. I've tried to explain this, exactly what I'm wanting. I have also tried to lead by example...he loves the example, just seems unable to return it to me. Also, throughout our relationship, I can honestly say I have been very giving to him physically, this part of our life didn't take a toll due to this behavior. I know he wouldn't say otherwise either.

About 6 weeks ago I tried to lovingly tell him my feelings were hurt over something disrespectful he did. Mind you, I did so while we were alone, after a close moment and earlier that day he told me how happy he was....he unleashed yet again...it's as if he feels blamed no matter how I present it. His reaction to anything he precieves as blame is to gain the upper hand through turning it around, unleashing everything he's let annoy him without mentioning it, the past, etc. I tried to present it as "what can I do better to help you not feel blamed when I'm trying to talk to you about my feelings. I don't blame you, I just want you to care about me." He called me names, the whole 9 yards. I observed his behavior, didn't react but the longer he went on and on, he called me a horrible filthy name, I came unleashed.

I didn't name call but I just unloaded exactly what I thought FINALLY. Nothing untrue but my feelings about his behavior. Mind you, I didn't hold back, I probably did judge and I certainly would have rather done that in a much different way.

I cried that entire night and he didn't care. It was just a very painful time. I feel it was probably more painful than any of the others and again, I left...not "i'm leaving you" but told him I wanted to go spend a week at my sisters which I did. While I was there, he hounded me and yes, I let him, I engaged. The day before I was to return home, during one of his outrageous comments I told him to please stop and consider me. I explained that his view of me, the way he describes me when he's upset hurts me. Well there it started, the behavior where he tells me what I really feel, what my intentions really are, blah blah blah....no matter when I try to tell him how I feel, he's right there to tell me how I really feel and why, what I really think and how, what I'm really doing, etc. I can say "I feel sad when you call me that" and he'll say, "No you don't, you're too busy.....fill in the blank with some random view that doesn't resemble what I'm expressing".

I told him I wouldn't be coming home the next day that I had enough of this back and forth, etc. That until we could learn how to communicate, I just didn't want to continue to be under the same roof.

Of course he's convinced I planned this all along. That I don't want to be with him and just won't say it. He doesn't believe a word I say, etc.

He tells me if I don't come home to work on it then "forget it" he's done. He won't believe that I'd love to be home, I hope that will indeed happen, I'd like to work towards that but I can't do it all, that my needs have been neglected long enough. I realize I may not have been meeting all of his as well. So school started and when he learned I put the kids in school other than the one that's by our house, he went nuts saying he held out hope i'd come home...doing that is the final straw, he'll never believe me and he hates me.

I just don't know what to do. I'd like to keep my family together. But I'd also like to have a partner and someone who I can share myself with. Not hesitate or get confused at what's ok what isn't due to rules seeming to change, etc.

If he hates me, if he just hangs up after asking me a question he doesn't like the answer to, I'm unsure what to do. I feel more unimportant than ever. Is it immature to feel the NEED to come first right now? I don't know how to put him first anymore, it's become too painful. It's hard to listen to his feelings when they sound so mean and honestly, it's been years since he's returned this, if ever. I don't know what to do or where to start.

Sorry this is so long, I suppose I'm just feeling lost and trying to find my way through it.

The smartest think you ever did was get out. He is terrible. Why do you want to continue to keep this marriage going with this abuser anyway?

I would run to an attorney and get a separation agreement and then determine how you can support the kids on your own.

You married a real "winner", that one.

Do you see how this is a manipulation tactic, meant to make you come back in an attempt to "try again" without setting your marriage up for success this time?

I suggest putting a Plan B letter together, whether you give him a copy or not, so that you can remind yourself what you would need to set you and your marriage and family up for success, even when the pressure rises. He's always been able to get you to come back before, without making the changes your marriage needs.

Then, once you have that, I would suggest a dark Plan B. Since you do want your marriage, give him your letter, outlining the way home. A year in separate houses, how Ellen does in the Newsletter section in When to Call It Quits, until you see consistency in the behaviors that can restore the love and empathy to your marriage. Right now, you can see how he sees you as a non-person, nothing but an extension of himself, that he knows what your thinking, your input is unwelcome. Marriage coaching for outside accountability.

Take a look around here, read the Basic Concepts. There are Q&As that address problem drinking, physical abuse, selfish demands, disrespectful judgments, why women leave men. I encourage you to also read Why Does He Do that? Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men. by Lundy Bancroft. It goes into great detail how do you know if it's changed, to not go back to early. Dr. H talks about that in his article, too, how abused spouses go back to early, before the changes are in place, consistently over time, and it short circuits the process, because now the reason to change is gone.

Good for you for getting your kids to safety. For me the hardest part of growing up in an abusive home was the dread feeling of having to go back. That even when we did get a respite away from the abuser, I was afraid it was just a matter of time before my mom would bring us back to the same thing. Like you said, the severity would tone down, but it was still a prison where no one else was allowed to express any preferences or any feelings other that "Oh this is so great thanks so much." What can you do to reassure your kids that you're not going to bring them back into the same environment again, only going back if you all see from outside the house for a year or more that it is safe? For me HNHN for Parents was a great book, talked about teaching our kids thoughtfulness through spending meaningful time together.

I believe what you are describing here is called a dry-drunk. See he has an alcohol problem. Simply stopping drinking is NOT enough. He needs to engage in a life-long recovery program. He needs AA. Unfortunately, he probably wont go there until he hits ROCK BOTTOM. You need to be sure that you and your children aren't there for that, or he will take you right down with him.


You are unimportant. HE is the most important person on his life. It will take life beating him up for him to see the world any differently.

He is an addict and abusive. MB will NOT work for your marriage. I'm sorry but there really is nothing you can do. Staying with him rewards and encourages his abuse. All you can do is protect yourself, encourage him to seek help and try to rebuild your life.

If you want to save this marriage, let him know you are interested in rebuilding only AFTER he has committed and is actively engaged in a recovery program, and AFTER he has pursued treatment for his anger problem.

I can assure you he will try to manipulate and gaslight you.

YOU have to set the boundaries of what you will tolerate. It is YOUR job to protect yourself and your children.

I'm so sorry that this is happening to you - but you CAN pull away from this man.

I have an attorney. Yes, he has been horrible many, many times. Part of me feels its time to walk away and is relieved to do so. Then another part panics at the idea. When I stumbled on Dr Harley's info I was relieved to read about meeting needs, etc. Lots of light bulbs went off that he hasn't met my basic needs for a long time. More,, I have neglected mine as well. I panic for many reasons at the idea of divorce. Main one being the kids having to go with him for visitation. Especially our middle child who has severe special needs. He would want her for what I believe would be spite.

Document everything. Document, document, document.

Talk with your lawyer, see if you can do regarding the alcoholism. It may be possible for you to get full custody and him only get supervised visitation.

But the court has to be made aware of his behavior. So you have to document it.

Thanks you guy's. I feel relieved to hear these responses. You see, I did my work when we actually went to counseling. I wanted to do whatever I could for myself to help with my confusion, the pain, etc. I didn't want to be in that position ever again. At least on my end, to FEEL that low as I did when it went beyond emotional and became physical.

I have read the abuse book so many times in the past few years. It helped keep me grounded during the seperation when I refused to speak to him. When I felt paniced, I'd read parts of it and it was very calming.

I have read every single article on this website, LOL. I want so much to have clarity. I have a lot more than I did during our last seperation but I catch myself doubting my feelings more often than I'd like.

I realize it's from years of absorbing his description of me. After the fact, I'd realize it was manipulation but the broken side also felt the pain of his words. I couldn't stand the things he'd say and I'd try to explain myself to him. I'd be worn out when it was over and of course, neat little trick, his behavior wasn't addressed, just what he'd tell me mine was.

I believe I tolerate his "views" of me much better but I have a ways too go. I still catch myself at times, trying to explain my intention is nothing he's assuming or that my feelings are not what he's saying they are.

I am just exhausted. It's difficult to stay clear minded when I hear him speak from his point of view. It's grown near impossible for me to hear his feelings with empathy because his feelings chronically involve facts of a circumstance that he's distored, twisted or even flat out lies about in order to have it fit how it's my fault he's feeling this way or that way.

He tells me I always leave, how wrong it is to do to him, blah blah blah....him him him. I am so sick of how he feels, his problems, his views, his everything. I want to be caring and kind. I don't know how to hear him when it's one big lie in his favor.

Someone is absolutley right, in this home (It's so hard to say MY home) the only feeling aloud is "yes, all if fine, it's wonderful here"....beyond that there is hell to pay unless it's HIS feelings.

I don't care if I have to borrow the strength of 10 women, if I become a pest here in order to stay clear minded, I just don't want my kids growing up learning how to be dishonest or hurtful or witness just how to not be accountable when you're behavior is not your best. I would be heartbroken in my role if my daughter came home one day telling me of her pain due to her husband. My 7 year old has said out loud to a friend, "my daddy called my mommy a w-ore and pulled her hair." That was a year ago and she still brings it up from time to time which tells me it's still in her mind.

When she says to him "don't pull mommy's hair again" (she was 6 at the time) he said, "I didn't, I would never do that, I love her." I was floored. He was doing the exact same thing to her he does to me. She was frustrated at his denial and he just tickeled her trying to change the subject....it worked. When she asked me about it I'd kindly speak the truth, I didn't know what else to do but try to be an example..."He needs to work on his anger and how to treat others kindle. What he did was not ok. I know you love him. I do too. He isn't "bad" his behavior is just not acceptable towards me at this time. He needs to work on that."

Of course when she'd repeat some random portion of that to him, it's that I'm trying to turn her against him. Really, I was trying to set the example with honesty. I did not say a single bad thing about him to her, never have and never would. Unlike him, I know that would only HARM her. I want to help her. I wouldn't be hysterical and exaggerate to her....I want to be upfront and honest on her level as an example of what to model. To see a better way than his angry way. To see that just because he denies his problems doesn't mean WE have too.

No matter what, it seems I'm the bad guy.

I feel as though I've been trying to prove to him I'm not, to fill this big black hole of his and it just gets bigger and bigger, not smaller. One little mistake in his eyes by me and my word, I'd not forget it for life.

I do see along the way behaviors I'm not proud of. I grew to withhold information from him. I didn't view it as lying, I thought of it as protecting myself. You see, I don't think I'm a liar but he's told me I am for forever. A few years back when his anger and harsh words got too big, I'd withhold things like that I had lunch with a girlfriend because I wasn't in the mood to hear him go on and on. I realize this is wrong on my behalf. I apologized and corrected this through counseling. I saw how my withholding caused him even more distrust....but really what I think is that my with holding added truth to his accusations of me and therefore justified his anger even more. My husband hasn't ever seen "his part" in this. It's just that one of my flaws is I'm a liar. However, throughout my life, this wasn't one of my flaws. I've grown to doubt myself and try to explain too much to him

I shared with him a few letters from the Q&A's part of this site, sent him the links. I didn't necessarily identifiy precisely with the exact situation described from the writer but I really connected with Dr Harley's response to each of them. I thought it may be non confrontatiol to him since Dr Harley recognizes it's a two way street regardless of whether it's a man's concern or a woman's. I see my poor behavior somewhat throughout Dr Harley's responses. I explained to him when I sent them I wasn't saying anything about him, that I just really liked the response and identified with certain poor behavior of mine, etc. I told him I hoped it maybe rang a bell with him too so we could learn to communicate more effectively. His response was "you shouldn't be with me, nobody should feel controlled or abused, blah blah blah"

sorry i keep going on and on.

So here's my question, what can I do to practice not giving in to his views of me by trying to explain. I said it so much I'm exhausted at repeating myself and I feel I've tried hard enough long enough. I'm ready to trust that it's his turn and in the meantime, I need to live with the reality of here and now. That being he isn't capable of showing me he ever wants to learn and the glimmers of it are manipulation. If he starts to show me, great...maybe it could work. If he doesn't then obviously he wasn't going to....win/win either way whether or not I get which one of those I'd prefer. So where do I go from here in order to set the stage then once it's in place, then what? that's where I tend to slip....I feel relieved at first, then fear sets in after a few days and it's like I give in in order to stop the fear I feel. Even if I don't respond to him, the nice then mean then threats, etc....what am I doing wrong to not see myself past the fear....what am I lacking that prevents me from tolerating MY fear?

I feel so needy when I get at that point. I fear him moving onto another relationship (he's never admitted to being unfaithful BUT, I don't believe that and all the signs are there for random one night stands)....I don't understand why this bothers me? Maybe cuz it adds to my hurt of not being important? I fear him getting the kids. I fear the way he convinces his friends and family that I'm crazy. blah. It's always poor him, look what she does to him. What about me or our children? I get shunned by them, I end up the bad guy. I know different but I struggle when the fear sets in to tolerate it.

any suggestions?

blue - please read This thread

This is a woman who found the strength YOU need and left, she is rebuilding her family WITHOUT her husband.

That is what you must do - you need to get away from him.


This just breaks my heart.

Your ACTIONS are telling this poor girl that her father's behavior IS acceptable. Your ACTIONS will be what she remembers, not the words.

When she gets into a relationship with a boy just like her father. When this boy belittles and abuses her, she wont remember that Mommy said this was unacceptable. She will remember that Mommy stayed with Daddy and put up with it - so she should put up with it too, because that is what 'love' is.


He is telling you the truth. You need to BELIEVE him.


You are protecting yourself because HE wont protect you. He never will.


The only thing you can do is leave. I'm serious. You are repeating yourself because you can't find the right words to fix this problem.

Let me let you in on a secret: there are no words IN EXISTENCE that can fix your problem. Only ACTION will fix your problem. Only leaving will stop this abuse.


Please, if you even suspect this to be true, get yourself checked. Take care of your health.

As for him moving on - let him. Let him go. He is not worth keeping. Your self-worth, your value is not contingent on him. Your value doesn't come from him. It comes from within. It comes from your internal strength and integrity. By acting on that strength you will find your self-worth, you will find your value. You've let him beat it into the ground, you've let him convince you that you have no value.

You do.

You have to claim it.

Blue-
Have you considered going to an Al-Anon meeting (or other 12 step meeting, like CoDA)? Does your city have resources for abused women?

I'm wondering if you would help you to have real life support system, not just cyber support....

You asked this

Then you stop explaining. It seems so simple, and I know it's hard to start new habits. First, you need to observe when you are explaining yourself. Then, what worked for me was having some internal dialog, that went something like this "IRN, the other party you are trying to communicate with is not stupid. They understand the english language. There is no need to beat this to death. One communciation on the subject is enough. Stop after once, if you feel the communication is necessary."

Eventually, I got to the point where I didn't need any self-talk.

Hi Blue- I don't often post here because I don't believe that I have a good enough handle on MB concepts to weigh in or dole out advice. That said, when I read your post I felt compelled to reach out to you. I wonder if perhaps you are married to my ex-husband? The similarities--everything from behaviors to exact statements--are striking (and not in a good way).

Your husband is not interested in having "good communication" with you or understanding you because he is not interested in a real relationship with you. No abuser is. This is evidenced in how he blameshifts and defines you with his projections (you want to leave him, you hate him, etc.), as well as his overt and covert attempts to control you using force, terror tactics, threats, etc.

Also, he doesn't want to hear your "true feelings" (thoughts, desires, hopes, dreams, fears, wishes, emotions, etc.) like a normal husband would because these things show you as a separate person--something that he cannot tolerate psychologically. I recommend the book Controlling People by P. Evans for lots of insight into why this is so.

The question you need to ask yourself is not "If he loves me, why is he treating me me like that?" It's "How could he treat me like this if he loves me?" Do you see the difference? A dear friend of mine once said about my ex, "It sounds like he just wants to hurt you." Boy was that a wakeup call for me! Only you can decide what you will and will not telerate in your relationships. You teach people how you want to be treated. Perhaps it's time time to start teaching him that you won't tolerate domestic terrorism on your watch? But you don't do this by educating him or trying to get him to change, or trying to figure out your part in this abuse (hint: he would have done this to anyone --you are not to blame!). You do it by putting down a boundary, getting your plan to leave in place, and leaving.

Blue, trying to "understand" him or get him to change is a waste of your precious time and energy. And know that he has no desire to be understood, because the more confused and depressed you are, the more control he can exert over you.

IMO the first order of business is to get you and your children safe. Create a plan (without telling him) for how and when you will leave. Do not direct him to this website--he will just use it against you, as he has everyting else. Do you have family or friends or perhaps a pastor who are trustworthy and whom you can call on for help? Do you have access to cash, credit cards, and/or important documents? You need to get far away from this person, disengage yourself from his "mind tentacles," and get your mind stright. Right now you are "confused" because, yes, he has defined you in terrible terms (no loving husband calls his wife a wh***). Everyone else in the world could be telling you you're great, but your husband is treating you like garbage and you believe his lies that you are somehow to blame. Distance from this will help you "debrief" and see the foul untruths for what they are. I'm afriad that there is no other way than to leave. Staying in it means that you are, well, still in it.

be strong for your children and protect them. Nobody else in this situation can do that but you.

I will send up a special prayer for you today. Please continue to use this site for help and advice. there are some wonderful peopel on here who are wise and loving and who want to help.

(((BLUE)))

Thanks you guy's. It breaks my heart to when I take an honest look at what I'm teaching my children. In how they watch me treating myself. Believe me when I say, my rational side KNOWS and a big part of me has known it isn't right. I have tried to be a good example. You're right, it will be my actions and not my words...or perhaps it will be my actions WITH my words. I am determined to break this cycle right here. I know I can do it.

It's there, I've just allowed my confidence to be replaced with self doubt. I can be strong. I can endure this in order to do what I know is right...I imagine the reminders that I do know, it is there, I do have the tools is so refreshing.

My attempts to leave were always a good start. It's going back that prevents the follow through. I WANT to follow through, for ME and for the children. Please know that deep down, I know this. I also know "wanting to" only to fall short by returning isn't good enough for the great loves of my life, my children. It's the darn self doubt that I allow to eat at me. I try to tell myself I am letting his abuse win when I doubt me.

I'm unsure where in the world my sense of obligation got so strong that it's clouded my decision process.

To be honest, I remember when I felt "in love" with him. I believe it is the memory of this feeling along with the other things (abuse cycle) that I give into, that I allow to misguide me into thinking it could be that way again. So I try for that to no avail and at the expense of myself and worse, my childrens emotional health.

Friends (the few I have confided in) have told me I am the only one who is scared by his threats because I give into his facade. That it's just him trying to get his way. I see that....I would like to be able to just KNOW that and simply hear "bark bark bark" to his threats.

I realize love isn't what I feel under all the damage...I try to tell myself it's why I want it to work, why I try so hard. I think what I feel under the damage is fear or just bad feelings which I confusing with "missing him".

I have been spending my days engaging in life for a change. It does help to keep my mind OFF him or HIS problems. My children and I have had many great talks, lots of wonderful moments that have felt so light. They seem so happy and relieved.

At night when they are asleep I find myself obsessing...allowing myself this time to give into it. I worry about them growing up with a single parent, about them having to spend weekends with him without me there....you see, he presents this "great dad" image to the world but it's an image. it's "words". Like he's playing a role. Even to them when other's are around. When people aren't around and it's just us at home, he is very hands off...hasn't ever bathed them or fed them, etc. yes, he'll play with them when he feels like it and NO, he is not mean towards them. he's very affectionate and silly. but on his terms. and they'll have to go...my attorney told me the courts are very forgiving regardless of my "proof". he'll be all charming and say how he's worked towards sobriety and although had slip ups, he gets right back on it, etc. I worry about our special needs daughter who has never spent a second without me and is so neurologically impared, her sensory issues, etc...she isn't the type who's going to just "get used to it" the way a child would when leaving them with someone else. she cries within 3 minutes of someone besides me holding her....why? because she is visually impared, her sensory issues tell her "I don't like the difference here" and the second my hands touch her, she stops crying. people often think i'm being over protective not allowing someone else to calm her. but they don't know what I do. she can't speak, she is saying, "I'm uncomfortable, my world doesn't feel good, please talk to me but don't hold me." Everyone just sees this little baby (she's the size of a 4 month old) and think they can treat her like a 4 month old. I KNOW in my heart, from knowing her, that she couldn't tolerate weekends away from ME. My attorney said a judge would say "if you can do it so can he"....yet I thought it's about HER, not he or I. I tell him, take her for an hour, come see her everyday but you know she won't tolerate being away from me.

he doesn't spend anytime with her until I leave. then it isn't that he does, it's that he plays this part of "I just want my kids cuz i'm such a loving dad and my wife holds the kids over my head and my daughter isn't going to live long"....it tells such a sad story. it's sickening.

In order to save my children and myself for an emotionally healthy life, it's difficult to do this knowing one of children will have to endure something she isn't equipped to handle.

I don't hold the kids over his head. He says that at the drop of a hat to make himself shine. he also uses them to hurt me so who's the one doing that?

this type stuff just freezes me at times, it wears on my peace. for my "normal" kids, I know they'll be ok, maybe even happy to go and have a great time as he entertains them in order to play this role of his. But for the special needs one, I know that isn't the case for her. yet the law says he has rights. and a judge would uphold that and assume if I can care for her he can too. but he isn't in my home, he doesn't "know" her and even if I were to explain it, the law wins? A law that is supposed to put a childs interests first.

my attorney said we'd fight but he's seen cases where kids with special needs are treated the same as kids without them. i don't know how to be ok with that. I tell myself I'll worry about it when it gets here...that is tough to follow and if that day comes, i'm unsure how to live through 48 hours of what i know will happen.

I guess maybe this is another part of my drive to wish he'd "see the light." I know him. I know he'd let her suffer before calling me for help when he has her. He has to be right and live up to his image at all costs. But saying that to a judge just makes me sound vindictive as opposed to honest.

This breaks mine too. Blue, your daughter may not even PHYSICALLY remember this when she�s older, but she will likely gravitate toward the same type of guy. It�s been said that children raised like this �just feel normal� with a partner like their dad, even if they can�t remember the specifics�and In my case that was TRUE! When I told my mom I was leaving my ex, she cried (even though she was happy I was getting me and my son OUT) because my ex had turned into a man JUST LIKE MY FATHER!

She left my dad when I was 15 and we were all relieved because he was EXTREMELY abusive (so much so that he went to jail for abuse to his next family). You had no opinion. You were worthless. The only thing that mattered was making his life easy and taking care of him. She was homeless that year and so we stayed with him til she was able to get a job and place (this was overseas- they didn�t have women�s shelters like they do here). The tipping point for my Mom was when he pulled a knife on her.

The tipping point for me was how he moved from being verbally abusive to beating our son. At first it was over minor things the boy did, and I excused it saying oh, DS is strong willed and needs a little more firmness to develop his character. But the first time I saw my son getting beat senseless for nothing but his father�s frustration, I realized that strong willed or not this is abuse and I am a PARTY to it, part to blame if I sit there and watch it any longer! That is my child and my duty is to protect him!

You must protect your daughter! And yourself! You can do it. It�s hard, I know! But you can do it.


Blue, you may tell your daughter with words, verbally, that this is poor behavior� but if you go back with him your ACTIONS tell her that you (and thus she) aren�t worthy of being treated with dignity and respect. You may not always feel like you are worthy, but YOU ARE!!

Again, I second this. He may never change into the husband/father you need, but YOU can change your life�and in doing so, I expect that YOU will feel better about who you are. I know I did!

You absolutely CAN do it!


Then tell yourself, paste it on your mirror if you have to: I DESERVE BETTER! I�M NOT GOING BACK!


Good for you!


I sounds like you are telling us this to illustrate his hypocrisy and potential issues with his visitation, but do you have someone who can care for her when you�re working? Getting a plan together for how you will support the kids will go a long way toward increasing your confidence (apartment, job, etc� or are you still at your sister�s? sorry, I got a little lost)

You never know- my ex was that kind of guy. It was all about the appearance. I�ve had several �friends� tell me that until he (recently) told them how wrong he was, they had thought I was lying- they couldn�t believe what I told them because he is so careful to put up the perfect front. I�m sure the judge has seen men like your husband before.

Hugs to you {{{{{Blue}}}}}, you can make it through this!

Signs you are in a relationship with a LOSER

This article was published to the Internet several years ago and was originally written to help identify "Losers" in relationships. It's clear the article is a way of identifying not only "losers" but controlling, abusive, and manipulating individuals. It's also obvious these warning signs are not only found in dating relationships - but in our spouse, our parents, our friends, and our relatives. There are more victims in the environment of the Loser than his or her partner.

I've been contacted for help by the friends and loved ones of people involved in relationships with Losers (controlling and/or abusive partners). The loved ones want to understand the situation and ask for recommendations and guidance. If our parent or parents have the characteristics listed in this article, our ability to function as a healthy adult may be hindered due to the dysfunctional family/parent model. My goal is to follow this issue and provide help and guidance to all those involved with controlling and abusive individuals - from partners to extended victims.

Introduction
Very few relationships start on terms other than sweetness and politeness. In the beginning, "the honeymoon" of the relationship, it's difficult to determine what type of individual you are dating. Both you and the date are guarded, trying to obtain information about the other as much as possible without seeming like a police detective.


Romantic relationships can be wonderful with the right person. A relationship with the wrong individual however can lead to years of heartache, emotional/social damage, and even physical damage. A damaging adult partner can damage us, damage our loved ones, and even damage the way we feel about love and romance in the future. They can turn what is supposed to be a loving, supporting, and understanding relationship into the "fatal attraction" often described in movies.

There are a variety of "bad choices" that may be encountered each week - most of which are easily to identify and avoid. We all know to avoid people that appear insane or abusive and not select them as a dating partner. However, some individuals are better at hiding their personality and behavior abnormalities. In an effort to provide some warning about these very damaging individuals, this paper will outline a type of individual commonly found in the dating scene, a male or female labeled "The Loser".
"The Loser" is a type of partner that creates much social, emotional and psychological damage in a relationship.

"The Loser" has permanent personality characteristics that create this damage. These are characteristics that they accept simply as the way they are and not a problem or psychological difficulty. In one sense, they have always lived with this personality and behavior, often something they probably learned from their relatives/family. Psychologists usually treat the victims of "The Loser", women or men who arrive at the office severely depressed with their self-confidence and self-esteem totally destroyed.

The following list is an attempt to outline the characteristics of "The Loser" and provide a manner in which women and men can identify potentially damaging relationships before they are themselves severely damaged emotionally or even physically. If your partner possesses even one of these features, there is risk in the relationship. More than three of these indicators and you are involved with "The Loser" in a very high risk relationship that will eventually create damage to you. When a high number of these features are present - it's not a probably or possibility. You will be hurt and damaged by "The Loser" if you stay in the relationship.

1. Rough Treatment "The Loser" will hurt you on purpose. If he or she hits you, twists your arm, pulls your hair, kicks you, shoves you, or breaks your personal property EVEN ONCE, drop them. Male losers often begin with behaviors that move you physically or hit the wall. Female losers often slap, kick and even punch their male partners when upset.

2. Quick Attachment and Expression "The Loser" has very shallow emotions and connections with others. One of the things that might attract you to "The Loser" is how quickly he or she says "I Love You" or wants to marry or commit to you. Typically, in less than a few weeks of dating you'll hear that you're the love of their life, they want to be with you forever, and they want to marry you.

You'll receive gifts, a variety of promises, and be showered with their attention and nice gestures. This is the "honeymoon phase" - where they catch you and convince you that they are the best thing that ever happened to you. Remember the business saying "If it's too good to be true it probably is (too good to be true)!" You may be so overwhelmed by this display of instant attraction, instant commitment, and instant planning for the future that you'll miss the major point - it doesn't make sense!!

Normal, healthy individuals require a long process to develop a relationship because there is so much at stake. Healthy individuals will wait for a lot of information before offering a commitment - not three weeks. It's true that we can become infatuated with others quickly - but not make such unrealistic promises and have the future planned after three dates. The rapid warm-up is always a sign of shallow emotions which later cause "The Loser" to detach from you as quickly as they committed. "The Loser" typically wants to move in with you or marry you in less than four weeks or very early in the relationship.

3. Frightening Temper "The Loser" has a scary temper. If your boyfriend or girlfriend blows up and does dangerous things, like driving too fast because they're mad, breaking/throwing things, getting into fights, or threatening others - that temper will soon be turned in your direction. In the beginning of the relationship, you will be exposed to "witnessed violence" - fights with others, threats toward others, angry outbursts at others, etc. You will also hear of violence in their life. You will see and witness this temper - throwing things, yelling, cursing, driving fast, hitting the walls, and kicking things. That quickly serves to intimidate you and fear their potential for violence, although "The Loser" quickly assures you that they are angry at others or situations, not at you. At first, you will be assured that they will never direct the hostility and violence at you - but they are clearly letting you know that they have that ability and capability - and that it might come your way. Later, you fear challenging or confronting them - fearing that same temper and violence will be turned in your direction.

4. Killing Your Self-Confidence "The Loser" repeatedly puts you down. They constantly correct your slight mistakes, making you feel "on guard", unintelligent, and leaving you with the feeling that you are always doing something wrong. They tell you that you're too fat, too unattractive, or don't talk correctly or look well. This gradual chipping away at your confidence and self-esteem allows them to later treat you badly - as though you deserved it. In public, you will be "walking on eggshells" - always fearing you are doing or saying something that will later create a temper outburst or verbal argument.

5. Cutting Off Your Support In order to control someone completely, you must cut off their supportive friends - sometimes even their family. "The Loser" feels your friends and family might influence you or offer negative opinions about their behavior. "The Loser" begins by telling you these friends treat you badly, take advantage of you, and don't understand the special nature of the love you share with them. In some cases, if they can't get rid of your best same-sex friend, "The Loser" will claim he or she made a pass at them.

If you talk to your friends or family, "The Loser" will punish you by asking multiple questions or making nasty accusations. Eventually, rather than face the verbal punishment, interrogation, and abuse, you'll develop the feeling that it's better not to talk to family and friends. You will withdraw from friends and family, prompting them to become upset with you. "The Loser" then tells you they are treating you badly again and you'd be better to keep your distance from them. Once you are isolated and alone, without support, their control over you can increase.

6. The Mean and Sweet Cycle "The Loser" cycles from mean to sweet and back again. The cycle starts when they are intentionally hurtful and mean. You may be verbally abused, cursed, and threatened over something minor. Suddenly, the next day they become sweet, doing all those little things they did when you started dating. You hang on, hoping each mean-then-sweet cycle is the last one. The other purpose of the mean cycle is to allow "The Loser" to say very nasty things about you or those you care about, again chipping away at your self-esteem and self-confidence. "The Loser" often apologizes but the damage to your self-esteem is already done - exactly as planned.

7. It's Always Your Fault "The Loser" blames you for their anger as well as any other behavior that is incorrect. When they cheat on you, yell at you, treat you badly, damage your property, or embarrass you publicly - it's somehow your fault. If you are ten minutes late for a date, it's your fault that the male loser drives 80 miles per hour, runs people off the road, and pouts the rest of the evening. "The Loser" tells you their anger and misbehavior would not have happened if you had not made some simple mistake, had loved them more, or had not questioned their behavior.

"The Loser" never, repeat "never", takes personal responsibility for their behavior - it's always the fault of someone else. If they drive like a maniac and try to pull an innocent driver off the highway to assault them - it's actually the fault of the other driver (not his) as they didn't use a turn signal when they changed lanes. They give you the impression that you had it (anger, yelling, assault) coming and deserved the anger, violence, pouting, or physical display of aggression.

8. Breakup Panic "The Loser" panics at the idea of breaking up - unless it's totally their idea - then you're dropped like a hot rock. Abusive boyfriends often break down and cry, they plead, they promise to change, and they offer marriage/trips/gifts when you threaten ending the relationship. Both male and female losers may threaten suicide, threaten to return to old sweethearts (who feel lucky they're gone!), or threaten to quit their job and leave the area - as though you will be responsible for those decisions. "The Loser" offers a multitude of "deals" and halfway measures, like "Let's just date one more month!"

They shower you with phone calls, often every five minutes, hoping that you will make an agreement or see them just to stop the telephone harassment. Some call your relatives, your friends, their friends, and anyone else they can think of - telling those people to call you and tell you how much they love you.

Creative losers often create so much social pressure that the victim agrees to go back to the bad relationship rather than continue under the social pressure. Imagine trying to end a relationship and receiving tearful calls from all his or her relatives (they secretly hope you'll keep them so they don't have to), seeing a plea for your return in the newspaper or even on a local billboard, receiving flowers at work each day, or having them arrive at your place of work and offer you a wedding ring (male loser technique) or inform you that they might be pregnant (female loser technique) in front of your coworkers!

Their reaction is emotionally intense, a behavior they use to keep you an emotional prisoner. If you go back to them, you actually fear a worse reaction if you threaten to leave again (making you a prisoner) and they later frequently recall the incident to you as further evidence of what a bad person you are. Remember, if your prize dog jumps the fence and escapes, if you get him back you build a higher fence. Once back in the grasp of "The Loser" - escape will be three times as difficult the next time.


9. No Outside Interests "The Loser" will encourage you to drop your hobbies, interests, and involvement with others. If you have an individual activity, they demand that they accompany you, making you feel miserable during the entire activity. The idea behind this is to control all your activities.

Wow.

So, I'm about to have an anxiety attack just reading your post.

First of all: TWO MAIN THINGS:

Run, don't walk to your nearest bookstore (or AMazon) and get Melody Beatie's Codependent No More. Lots of libraries even have it.

Then start going to ALANON which was developed out of AA for Friends and Family of Alcoholics. Your husband is an alcoholic.
http://alcoholism.about.com/cs/meetings/a/blalanon.htm

Now I pulled quotes that struck me in your post, and I know of what I speak as I was married to an actively drinking alcoholic who felt he had absolutely no problem with drinking. I have two little girls. We've been divorced for 2.5 years now.

Please read:

You said: "I have been trying to get through to him for years and it's felt as though I can't get through to him. I'm realizing I am not perfect either and am trying to understand my part in this."

You, my friend, may have parts of you that aren't perfect. Sure. It has NOTHING to do with his anger or drinking though. If you were the way you were with a non angry, non alcoholic man, you'd get a much kinder more appropriate response to you being you.

You said: "He has a tendancy to drink a little too much when he goes out...he always came home mad telling me what *I* did that justified him doing that."

And that is because he's an alcoholic. It's much easier for them to blame others than to take responsibility for their own actions. And this blaming won't stop just because he's not drinking as he would then be a "dry drunk".

You said: "I didn't "dish it back" because I was so hurt/sucked in, I bought these reasons."

Hmmm. That could be because you're a respectful person. It could also be that you are scared of him.

You said, on the drinking, : "The first three years of marriage, it would happen monthly or every other month."

You are minimizing his drinking as a reflection of how he minimizes it to you (alcoholic behavior of his to do that). How often do you go binge drinking? Is it that often? I highly doubt it. And I can guarantee that he's drinking more than he lies to you about anyhow. They are masterful concealers as well.

You said: "After three months of sobriety and working with a counselor, I returned home thinking the problems would be better. They weren't."

And that's because he's an alcoholic and sobriety isn't enough. He would need MUCH longer than that plus a sponsor plus a program. The counselor surely was no expert in substance abuse.

You said: "I realized that although the drinking wasn't there and so he wasn't staying out like before or going out for that matter, certain behaviors that existed went unnoticed..."

??? The stopping of drinking is only removing the lid off a POT or bottomless pit?? of problems and issues that he's been covering up with liquor and anger and denial. The behaviors will continue until he gets long term help.

You said: "He isn't an everyday drinker....a binge drinker about once every few months."

Sounds like you're falling for his b.s. about why he's not an alcoholic. They ALL do this same thing. The fact that he binge drinks shows he has no control over this substance. AND I continue to believe he's drinking more than he's saying.

You said: "Worse, my confidence was absent. When I would try to talk about MY feelings, it was always turned around, an opportunity for him to lash out, he didn't realize I wasn't criticizing him but was wanting some attention.

Well, liquor is first. He is next and you're somewhere at the bottom of his priority list. That was a sad truth that I had to realize myself. I thought of the alcohol like a mistress I could never compete with and never win against. THERE IS NO COMPETITION. You will not win. But, you don't have good confidence, it's a personality trait ladies like us have which is why we attract these kinds of guys. I'm trying to change that but it's still a work in progress...

You said: "About a year ago, his outbursts turned physical. No, he never punched me in the face..."

SPoken like a truly abused woman. I'm so sorry. Whatever kind of physical he has been with you is not okay. Period. And it'll just get worse dear.

You said: "After a three month process which was painful to me, we began together. In those three months, I realized a lot about myself. MY poor behaviors, how I could have made different choices, not let his behavior control me but, WALK away and not return until he could control himself, etc."

I'm pretty certain at this point that your counselor took one class in substance abuse to get the certificate to counsel. This cannot be an expert on alcoholism. No way. NONE of any of what you said or owned up to matters because he isn't getting support for his alcoholic behaviors. There is NOTHING you did or didn't do that had him drinking or being angry. Total [censored]. SOrry.

You said: "Although he isn't drinking or being physical or LOUD outbursts in the old way....the "turn around" and blame and inability to take what I'm saying as an opportunity to learn or be helpful or present to me is still absent."

The angry stuff will return as will the alcohol cuz he's not getting proper support in the form of AA or whatever. And the blaming is gonna stick unless and until he gets the right support which may never happen.

You said: "I didn't name call but I just unloaded exactly what I thought FINALLY."

You're repressed and finally said what you thought.

You said: "he's right there to tell me how I really feel and why, what I really think and how, what I'm really doing,"

And you don't trust yourself so you would actually take someone else's word (often, right?) about how YOU feel and the state of YOUR mind. You can NEVER argue someone's feelings because it's THEIR feelings. So they feel it. He's a crazy maker. He's making you nuts.

You said: "I just don't know what to do. I'd like to keep my family together. But I'd also like to have a partner and someone who I can share myself with. Not hesitate or get confused at what's ok what isn't due to rules seeming to change, etc."

Wow. This is so typical of someone who is living with an alcoholic parent or spouse. The rules keep changing so the confusion sets in and you try to do what you can just to survive it, you change and change till you don't even know who the hell you are so you just take their word for it when they tell you who you are.

You said: "he hasn't met my basic needs for a long time. More,, I have neglected mine as well. I panic for many reasons at the idea of divorce. Main one being the kids having to go with him for visitation. Especially our middle child who has severe special needs. He would want her for what I believe would be spite."

I feel...like they'd tell you in Alanon, you cannot go to a hardware store for bread. Right? Wanting him to meet your needs is like going to the hardware store for bread. He does not have the ability to do that. You must meet you needs and your kids' needs. He's meeting his own so let's not worry about him. Visitation? One day at a time, but you get a lawyer. You file first. You show the judge that he's an alcoholic with whatever evidence you have (and abusive) and I'll surprised if he even gets visitation. Might get supervised visitation. Or you could try what I did and bluff a little "I'll use every resource I have to be sure I get full custody and it's over my dead body that you will get joint custody." ??? I doubt he wants custody, he just wants to freak you out. In the end, you'll get full custody. But start a journal NOW and hide it. Journal all that he does so you can have some kind of proof. I'm guessing you're scared to confront him on the visitation thing though. I was as well and mine wasn't quite as abusive as yours (much more covert, verbal abuse). I was scared. But I found he was full of it and only wanted to use the custody talk as a method of control. HE KNOWS YOUR HOT BUTTONS HONEY. DON'T STAND IN FEAR.

You said: to your kids: "He needs to work on his anger and how to treat others kindle. What he did was not ok. I know you love him. I do too. He isn't "bad" his behavior is just not acceptable towards me at this time. He needs to work on that."

It really doesn't matter what you said actually because actions speak louder than words, always. They see it's okay for men to treat women like this in their home. They know the truth. He doesn't "just need to work on that." He's severely disturbed and angry and I feel you must get you and your kids away.

You asked: "So here's my question, what can I do to practice not giving in to his views of me by trying to explain?"

NEVER explain as it will not do any good. You know who you are. God knows who you are. You needn't explain to someone who does not know who you are which he does not. I only see one way out for you and that is the front door.

You said: "I fear him moving onto another relationship (he's never admitted to being unfaithful BUT, I don't believe that and all the signs are there for random one night stands)"

I once read about a woman who found purple spots on her ankles and feet. Turned out she'd contracted the AIDS virus because her husband had been cheating on her. This is SERIOUS. Do not fear him moving on. Let him move on. Feel sorry for the next lady.

You said: "Maybe cuz it adds to my hurt of not being important? I fear him getting the kids. I fear the way he convinces his friends and family that I'm crazy. blah."

Hmmm. Yes, you rest your own importance in whether others need you which is typical of someone who is a codependent person (get that book!). You are important standing alone. Believe it. Now, as for his friends and family...are they not all crazy and/or alcoholics as well?? You know you're not crazy and if you don't, please go to ALANON and begin to recover yourself. You're not crazy. It'd be good for him if you believe you are though because then you can be his verbal or physical punching bag forevermore.



So. In ALANON, there is a basic directive to not give advice. I don't care. I advise you to leave him and start your own family which is you and the kids.

I am HAPPY on my own and in my job (which I had to go back to after being a stay at home mom for years).

I'm doing it. Is it in a little two bedroom apartment? Yes. But my kids are happy and stable and so am I.

My ex said he'd never quit drinking cuz he didn't have a problem with it. He finally quit. He wants me back. I will not go back. If I ever did, it'd be after another year or two of sobriety plus weekly AA meetings PLUS dating him without the kids knowing and even then I highly doubt I'd go back to him.

He'd have to prove it to me for a long long time and...well...we all know how impatient alcoholics are. He'll never last. And that's okay with me.

Good luck!!!!

Yes to the last poster. Your husband is an alcoholic LOSER. Clearly. You must hate your own self for meeting him, then marrying him and actually going so far as to have this LOSER's precious children who are being abused daily and watch mommy be abused and insulted daily.

GET OUT!!!!!!! NOW!!!!

Oh, almost forgot. There's a wonderful online Alanon and AA chat that I used to go to before I went to face to face meetings (and I still use the online one sometimes). Just go to www.stepchat.com and register. THen go to the Open Recovery to ask other alcoholics about his behaviors (they are a tough crowd, but will tell you like it is) and go to Friends and Family to talk with others who are living with or who have lived with Alcoholics.

Personally, I thank God for Alanon. And I know a lot of what they stand for is gaining sanity and serenity despite what the alcoholic is doing. Personally, I don't have the personality make up to LIVE with someone who is this way and stay sane at the same time. So, I had to leave with the kids. Others choose to stay and that's up to them. What you do is up to you, of course.

I get really sensitive when it comes to kids in the house though. In the end, I was so afraid that my girls would think that what we had was what marriage was and should be. I couldn't live with myself. Yes, I felt guilty that I gave them this man for a dad, but that was me putting everything on myself. I made a mistake marrying him. I'm glad I did it cuz I have my girls. But, what we had was not what marriage ought to be. Nobody's marriage is perfect...it doesn't mean that we need to put up with drinking and verbal or physical abuse though.

I am sorry I dont know about your husband, Twisted, but I know for sure that blueskies husband is a real first class LOSER. Who could live with a man like that even for one day!

Thank you twisted....first let me say that I am out of the house and have been for the past 6 weeks. I have talked to him but not seen him in person within this time. I've refused to because he hasn't been able to show me for longer than an hour on any day, that he gets a thing I've tried to tell him. He'll pretend too as he has the two previous times I'd leave.

I just wanted to put that out there. The reason I already have an attorney is because HE got one the last time I left. So, for those months, we battled amoungst our attorneys. I documented all his weird stuff at that time, have always saved that journal. I filed an order of protection after one particularly abusive event at a pick up time for two of our children....we settled amoungst our attorneys on this. The reason I took the agreement is because my attorney said if I didn't get the order (only had police called ONCE where they helped me leave, he wasn't arrested) I run the risk of not getting it and then NOT having this deal. He didn't want that to happen. So I took the deal knowing if he broke it, I could return for another and the judge see I am trying to work, he isn't. In this time, our daughter got very ill, hospital worthy, scary stuff....I now see this is where he came in for the bait so to speak.

I am feeling much better. It helps to hear what everyone has to say. For one, I felt it but wouldn't say it as I'm realizing the counselor we worked with must not have been very good. He did have me focusing on my behavior and I didn't want to be like him and not be responsible for my actions. I realize my behavior is situational to some degree....obviously anyone in an abusive situation who feels stuck just tries to survive.

In these 6 weeks, I haven't given in. I'm determined not to. I was willing to work if he were able to show me he could consider me. I didn't have a time frame in mind. REalizing it would need to be at least a year, I know I need to not even assume this possible. He's way too damaged to do the work required which tells me even more, just how he'll pretend to do it in order to get me back but his patience would maybe last two months with lots of pressure in that time. Truth is, I know deep down, the only reason I entertain "if you show me" is because I feel obligated to him. Another one of his damaging effects.

I am afraid of him when we're seperated. Physically afraid. I read last year in the abuse book that's common. Just as I read, when I don't have contact, I can't gauge his moods which scares me. I rationally understand however, that I am stronger than I think and HE knows it.

This afternoon, I discovered without a doubt that he IS drinking again (printed cc statements of HIS for atty). I haven't bothered myself in a few years with snooping through his stuff. I used to but quite frankly, I have enough to worry about and it isn't denial that caused me to not do it...it's a slow process of just not caring too. I totally missed his drinking behind my back. WOW, a huge wake up call. It cinched the deal even more. I thought he had been sober for quite some time....nope. all his business trips, when i'd be out of town, etc...bar after bar after bar on there....from what I believed his sobriety date to be to the present. I can't say I was shocked, I certainly wasn't hurt. I was validated.

He called this afternoon and asked if he could pick up two of our three children. Is was a an hour after I saw this. I didn't mention a word, just told him NO. He got angry instantly and started yelling and calling names, I hung up right away and went back to what I was doing. He kept calling, texting and I didn't bother even looking at the msgs. Within 20 min, a knock at the door, guess who? I didn't flinch with fear, I didn't walk near the door or try to pretend we weren't there, I just kept doing what I was doing as if I didn't hear a sound. He went away fast. phone continued to ring, texts kept coming, I don't care to see them or check them...still haven't. Tonight I didn't obsess, I read after the kids went to be. I'm unsure how to describe it. It's as if it happened for a reason...coming here, posting, the validating responses, then seeing just how big of a liar he actually is....I'm not sad or disgusted, just done wasting my time on it.

Not claiming I'm "suddenly healed"....I realize the fear may try to creep in, I may choose to let it in here and there despite my not wanting too. What I am saying is, it's like something made a loud pop within my body, my mind, my heart. I know without even knowing that if I had some sort of crystal ball that showed me all his lies, I'd realize I haven't even uncovered a tenth of them...nothing would shock me. Crazy thing about liars, where there's one there's a million.

I do have a question though. He emailed me giving me his demand for visitation until a premanet one could be establised (slight atty threat made too, LOL). He asked that I respond in a timely mannor as he hasn't got to see them in 6 weeks....after seeing the bill I realized why he hadn't asked, drink drink drink.

But suddenly it's that I was keeping them from him, anyway, legally my attorney said I shouldn't keep them from him as this looks bad. However, with this new information, I can't allow him to take them overnight even with supervision. Unless that supervision was with a family member of mine and that won't happen. All his family/friends are his biggest enablers and I wouldn't believe they'd tell the truth if he drank, etc. I haven't responded just yet. I wanted to but keep it short. "I agree a schedule is best. I believe at this time putting the children first is most important. In doing that, I imagine we can find common respect. With that said, their interests at heart where they can see you and you them, I believe twoice a week, where ever you choose for two hours at a public place with a third party present where I will remain while you visit with them is acceptable."

certainly he'll flip...but until he has some sort of sobriety under his belt (a year at least) or until the day comes that a judge tells me otherwise (we have no court order at this time, so I should allow him to see them and them him) I cannot send them with him.

see, I have been the sober one all the time. he would drink around the kids to the point of disgusting...he will drive drunk, etc. Unless I am forced to, my childrens lives come first to me just as his addiction comes first to him...his addiction and abuse are seperate...I know this. he knows he's an alcoholic, he's admitted it over and over. I have that in emails from years ago to present. in my eyes, if he were anywhere NEAR aware and just a "relapse" as he'll claim, he would respect a supervised visitation because he'd admit he isn't to be trusted.

If he weren't an abuser and an alcoholic, I would imagine if he ever got well, he'd thank me for letting him see them but not letting it be alone.

That won't happen as he won't get well. My point is, I believe that shows just how far gone he is.

I'm unsure if mentioning the alcohol is a good idea...my atty said do it but he is all law, not the behavior it could potentioally produce in him as he is going to get furious. that's ok with me, I will not engage but do i just tell him the arrangement without explanation? or do I mention the alcohol part? I could make that short as well, "Until you have some sobriety and under your belt, I believe it's best we protect the children from your alcoholism and I'm sure you want to protect them from that as well...." and then explain the plan?

Well bubbles I did. I'm not sure how. I am trying. I didn't like it and I'm really unsure how I was able to tolerate it.

I wish I wouldn't have. I will move forward from here and work on forgiving myself for doing it as long as I did and repairing the damage I helped maintain by staying. I will NOT return, I will succeed in that commitment I made to myself. It doesn't mean I won't stumble here or there....doesn't mean I have to act on it by going back or allowing him anywhere near me personally whether physically or emotionally. I'm not wanting or expecting or needing anyone to be "proud of me" for leaving. I don't feel proud in anyway. I just want to feel better, heal, regain things I've lost, be happy, etc.

I do appreciate your urging me to get out now and being blunt and to the point. Thank you.