YOU are unhappy though. He has an unhappy marriage.


I wouldn't ask at all. Just make the appointment for yourself and have Steve coach you on the best approach.

ML, we did MB circa 2002 and I was so grateful for it, I don't want to disrespect the process in anyway. I'm not expressing myself in an articulate manner. We did a severe NC, meaning continued contact was going to mean divorce. In the beginning I was psychotic and despairing feeling like I had to keep tabs on everything--keystroke loggers, phone surveillance, I even had voice activated recorders when I wasn't there in case there was a hidden phone! It was exhausting and depressing. After close to two years of turning up absolutely nothing I backed off because at some point I had to stop the 24/7 stuff. We've never given each other unbridled, unaccounted for freedom. But when I say 24/7 monitoring that was the extreme that I meant.

We also have an agreement NOT to friend exes on Facebook out of respect for each other. We've kept to that. From what Penni said, her H wasn't having contact with her at all...it was the other family members that liked her and had prior relationships with her...and her saying that her FIL wouldn't defriend the woman even if her H asked him too, just makes me feel like there isn't anything she can do about that. I tend to let go of things I truly have no control over.

Her H's reaction to her feelings just seems to me to be more of a global representation of some pretty long standing frustrations she's been holding in...and just symbolizes that she's finally hit the final straw in a big, big pile of hay.

I just hated to see this nutjob OW getting more credit and power than she had coming to her. Again--my own issues and you're right, I'll try to post more stringently with MB terminology and idealogy in mind. I really was trying to help.

One thing that makes this stranger, is that most of the people in my H's life including the people she is now Facebook friends with, didn't like her while they dated. She was pretty mean to him and there was evidence of multiple EAs on her part during their relationship.

Around the time he and I started dating, she felt compelled to ask for a truce with his friends and family and friend requested them. Many of his family members told her that they weren't going to hold a grudge against her but didn't want to be friends with her but not everyone.

WWCL, it is comforting to hear that after your H did a good job of taking an MB approach, you become more comfortable. I must admit, sometimes I feel overly insecure and a little obsessed with checking up on my H but I truly believe if he was on board with MB, I'd feel a whole lot more secure.

Penni, I was very fortunate that he gave it his all, but ironically it was only through his actions that *I* had the drastic wakeup call. I was actually a lot like your H (other than the EA) in that I was pretty clueless, felt happy on MY end and found his neediness to be tiresome. Little did I realize how much work and effort he was trying to put in every single day to meet and exceed my needs and how abandoned, insecure and UNhappy he was. In all fairness to me he never communicated this (he still has a HORRIBLE time standing up for his needs, but makes the effort now).

I know myself though. Even his communicating might not have made the difference. I would have rationalized his needs as somehow less evolved and made it his problem. I'm fairly self-satisfied and think I'm right a lot of the time. However, MB helped me to realize the REASON I was "happy" and "satisfied" was directly BECAUSE he was doing so much work while I was doing, well, very little.

In fact, I find not only your post, but others taking me to task over my responses somewhat serendipitous as the very reason I came back to MB was to get a little refresher course in being less aloof and more in tuned with my H's needs.

ETA: He hasn't complained and I don't suspect him of another A, but I know my tendency to withdraw and need alone time and right now I feel like I've gotten complacent and need to refocus my energy BEFORE we start a downward spiral.

Penni, insecurity and jealousy is a natural reaction to a threat in marriage. Marriage Builders does not help you deal with it by learning to ENDURE risky situations, but rather teaches couples to REMOVE risky situations. For example, if you are insecure playing chicken in the road, the MB solution is not to become accustomed to those feelings, but to get out of the road. The solution is not to learn to try to "deal with it," but to remove the threat. Your H's family members may not even understand how predatory this woman has been and might be very willing to remove her if they knew.


You would feel more secure if he stopped taking risks with your marriage. It is much easier to change behavior than it is to change reactions.

wwlc, I would suggest you start your own thread and tell your story. There are a lot of posters here who can give you support in your efforts, but your story is buried within Penni's thread right now.

Thanks maritalbliss, my initial plan was to just read and participate thinking I would osmose it I guess . I didn't mean to take Penni's thread OT, I found it really fascinating and I suppose my gut reaction of "it wouldn't be a big deal to me" is a sign I def need to be here.

I elaborated because I hated to think I had invalidated Penni's feelings. But I will stay on topic from here on out.

Hi All, my question was on the radio show today. I asked what you do if your spouse says his needs are met and that you are too needy and therefore, he shouldn't have to try to meet your needs.

Dr. Harley recommended trying to make meeting needs enjoyable for him and if that doesn't work, separation.

I have been thinking about how to make meeting my needs enjoyable and I am not sure how to do that. We have fun together, but I think he has more fun around his friends. If I tried to give him MB advice and said that he shouldn't spend time with them without me or that he should have the most fun with me, he would scoff at that.

I have asked him what I can do to be more fun to be around and he responds by saying that is a dumb question.

He really thinks the solution is for me to not want any more from him. Any suggestions for figuring out how to make meeting my needs more enjoyable?

Also, if I ask him to do something he views it as me discounting everything else he has done. I ALWAYS tell him how much I appreciate stuff he has done, I probably go overboard with thanks and praise. But, he thinks that any request means he isn't good enough, I don't value him overall, and I will never "just be happy with things as is."

Penny, how much UA time do you spend together? When a spouse is feeling neglected, the first place to look is at what is happening with UA time. What kinds of things do you do together?

We are "together" as in, in the same house, a lot but we only "do" something together a few hours per week. I feel like I have tried endlessly to change this. I suggest things to do, I plan stuff, I request it, and if none of that works, I complain.
I try to keep my complaints respectful but sometimes they turn into SDs and DJs when he starts DJing me.

He has an audio hobby so he spends A LOT of time sitting at his computer and I have tried to do this stuff with him but he tells me he doesn't want me to. He also thinks friend time is extremely important and in my opinion, chooses that over us doing stuff together often.

An Example: I was recently interviewed on a radio show for work and I do that and give talks publicly sometimes for my job. I had the 5 minute segment so I asked him if he wanted to hear it. He said, not really, because what I do probably doesn't interest him. What I do is not an obscure job that no one can understand, it's pretty straight forward. In all of our time together he has never come to see me give a talk or listened to something I did or even let me practice on him.

So, I said, it would mean a lot to me if you would listen just once so you could hear me "perform. I like to hear your music stuff because it is important to you and you spend a lot of time on it and it would mean a lot to me if you would listen to my stuff sometimes too." He instantly went on the defense and said, "That is number 15 on the list of things I am not doing that would mean a lot to you. When does it stop?" So, I said, "We're married, we are forever going to have things we could do for each other that will make each other happy." And he said, "I never tell you things that I want you to do." I said, "If you have any, I would like to hear them because I want to know ways to make you happy." He said, "Why can't you just be happy with how things are and let things roll of of your back like I do?" We went back and forth like this for a few minutes and then he decided he was leaving for the day even though we both have the day off and could actually spend some UA time together.

I guess I am not sure if I should have dropped it when he initially said he wasn't interested, or if I was right to continue because it is important to me.

Did you happen to mention to Dr Harley about your H's EA and basically that he never admitted it or committed to a recovery?

What worries me about your situation is (from what I have seen here) a WS who was unwilling to do the things necessary to recover the M after an affair (including acknowledge that it was an affair) is also the type of person who is unwilling to make changes to benefit the M in other ways as well.

I guess what I am saying is that I am worried your H will not do what he needs to do without some third party help (ie, Steve Harley).

Just some food for thought but when it comes down to moving towards a separation if there is no change in your M, my recommendation is to make a requirement that he coach with Steve to stay in the M. I think your H is the type that is going to need a third person (not just you) telling him what he is going to have to do to improve this M.

Yes, Susie, I think you might be right. I am sitting here right contemplating asking for a separation unless he agrees to phone counseling or the online program. It seems like a really drastic step for a bunch of little things that are adding up. It feels like the death of our marriage by 1000 paper cuts.

I am afraid he will think my request for separation is an empty threat, though, since I have requested one twice before and didn't follow though.

In that case, I suggest you don't ask for one. Instead, get all your ducks in a row (financially and logistically). Then, once you're ready to actually do it, do it. Inform him via a very loving letter, reminding him that you married him for life, but that you're not willing to remain in a marriage where both parthers' needs are not being met. Then list your conditions for reconciliation.

No threat. No request. Just action. Consequences to the choices he's made so far, and the promise of more positive consequences should he decide to make better choices in the future.

ITA

Well, he just beat me to the punch and came home and told me he wants a divorce. He said I don't respect his individuality and don't want him to do anything without consulting me and don't trust him to do things without me and he feels suffocated and can't handle it any more. I don't know what to think right now.

Penni4thoughts,

This is where you start to rebuild so both of you are happy, tell him you think the marriage is unsatisfactory as well, that you to are unhappy..........
Tell him you are willing to work on the marriage so both of you are happy........Ask him if he could agree to that........
Has he come to you with this kind of request before?
Do you want to stay together?
You have come to the right place if you do want to fix things, but maybe since you were already thinking the same thing then maybe a separation is a way to figure out what you two really want and need to be happy.
You are both angry and resentful, it can be turned around..........you have to learn to respect and accept each other.......
jessi

He is currently moving all of his stuff into the basement. I asked him if this is what he really wants and he said, "What does it f-ing look like." So, what am I supposed to do at this point?

He said the only way he would want to stay together is if I agree to let him do whatever he wants whenever he wants and never complain about it. I can't agree to that.

Is he planning to divorce you and remain living in your basement? That won't work!

{{{Penni}}}

Now is the time to be as charming as possible, and unable to be ruffled. It will be HARD, but just think of how confused it will make him and it'll be easier. Go about your life for the weekend, do something nice for yourself, maybe go out with a girlfriend for dinner. Monday, get with a lawyer and line up those ducks. You know you don't want to be married to someone who has no concern for you. If he's only leaving as far as the basement, hard reality has not hit him yet. Be as sweet and pleasant as possible with him over this weekend, then hit him with some reality on Monday.

If he tries to have any relationship talk, come up with a general question to ask him that he can answer affirmatively or end the conversation. "Are you ready to commit to a marriage where BOTH of us are happy?" If he is not, there is nothing to discuss. All the nitpicky you-dids and I-wants will go nowhere without the base of commitment to a common goal with the marriage at the center.