I never thought I would be back on this site (no offense).

My story:
Married to H #1 for almost 10 years. Discovered Emotional and Physical Affair. Fought like hell for the marriage (and spent COUNTLESS ANXIETY RIDDEN days on this forum just trying to figure out how in the world to cope). I was one of those people who was NEVER gonna get divorced...marriage is sacred...a promise...holy covenant between us and God, etc. WH wanted D anyway, which was absolutely, positively devastating to me and my family (I went through several years of counseling and my kids are STILL in counseling).

Stayed on my own for a good 4 years or so. God did some major "heart surgery" on me...healed my wounds. I met a new man. Fell in love and married H #2. We been married for about 4 years. He's completely different from H#1...his wife left him (not for another man, but, totally gave up on their marriage, etc.).

About 2 years ago, I ran into an old fling from my childhood. We starting talking on text, chat, then the phone. It wasn't long before I found myself trudging through the fog, and became the WS by engaging in an EA with this Married OM. Luckily, he lived in another place, so it didn't progress to a PA (not that it matters, really...EA is almost worse than PA in alot of cases, because people think they are "IN LOVE"...I know that having been on the receiving end of all of this). I turned to this forum for help...got blasted quite a bit by hurting, anxious BS's (been there, done that...so I understoof where they were coming from). I knew what needed to happen. I told my H the whole story. Confessed to everything. Begged for his forgiveness. And it was very difficult for a time, but, eventually we really seemed to be in recovery. Now, two years later, I would have described that as being behind us and would say we were pretty happy, actually.

Recently, for his birthday, I bought him a new blackberry phone. He has been spending an AWFUL lot of time on that phone (I know he isn't necessarily the most computer literate, but, something about it was really bothering me...and I learned from H #1 never to doubt my intuition). I've looked at it before from time to time, and never found anything questionable. Last night, I picked it up, and was shocked to find text messages, basically starting from last Friday or so, to the same woman (she is an employee who works for one of his vendors in another state). They were flirty, suggestive, and are obviously building, with the most recent notes being of what sexual positions he enjoys, and does she wear a thong, and she sent pics of her breasts, etc.

I am in total shock.

I can already hear what the other current BS's are saying. You deserve it...you put him in the same situation 2 years ago when you should have known better, etc. And, quite honestly, I am thinking along the same lines. Maybe this is Poetic Justice...my just desserts.

The thing is, the affair I weathered with H #1 (as the Betrayed Spouse)...well, it damn near killed me. I couldn't eat. I felt psycho...monitoring, sneaking, investigating, OBSESSING. I did some CRAZY stuff. It was an emotional rollercoaster...with me trying to meet Emotional Needs, only to be greeted with this mind screw from him with hints of love and remorse and then sucker-punch like blows of the meanest, most cruel behavior I have ever, ever, ever, ever, ever had to endure. And me, thinking and rethinking, and rehashing "Maybe if I had done that...and maybe I shouldn't have done this." Went to NC even. Awful. You know what I am talking about. My fight to save that marriage was the hardest thing I have EVER tried to do. And sadly, I failed.

I don't know if I have it in me to do it again. To use an overplayed analogy...I am like a cat and that last ordeal with H#1 used up 8 of my 9 lives.

I installed the blackberry monitoring software last night on my WH's phone while he was fast asleep in our bed. Haven't done anything else...trying not to take ANY action until I know more and feel somewhat sane about what my next steps should be. I am saddened to almost feel like I am being methodical about it this time.

It breaks away some of the numbness to vent. Fess up. Own up. Take my lashes. Whatever.

I'm puzzled by your ** gently stated hostility ** towards the members of this forum.

Are you here to refresh your MB knowledge?
Are you here only to vent and complain?
Are you asking for help of some sort?
What's your intention?

If you want to learn MB tools, you're in the right place.
If you have a different purpose, what is it?

PJ, you state that this will be your 3rd time dealing with infidelity in a marriage which you are involved in, your 3rd time on this forum.

What are you looking for?

Have you not read the books? Have you not adopted the principals?

The whole purpose here is learning how to create a loving, romantic, affair proof marriage.

What have you done to create that marriage between now and your first time here?

Have you adopted PoJA? PoRH? PoUA?

Without those 3 principals as a base, this cycle will continue.

Pepperband,

Forgive me if I came across with any disrespect.

As for the first comment: didn't mean any hostility. Who wants to be on the infidelity forum talking about newly discovered infidelity? No one. MB and this forum saved my life, and for that I will be forever grateful. But, I am sure you would agree, infidelity is not a situation I would want anyone to weather.

As for comments 2, 3, & 4: Not trying to be hostile. Self-deprecating, possibly, but not hostile. When I came to MB as the WW looking for help, I had a great deal of remorse and confusion and was very committed to taking responsibility for what I had done. I DID know better!!! Some of the people who responded almost seemed to want to punish me. I figured I needed to be willing to receive that...because these people were hurting and I was representative of the very thing that was tearing them apart. And I knew that pain first hand. I also received objective, practical help. I was grateful and immediately took steps to recover and protect my marriage.

I came to MB today because I am hurting/confused. I believe in the principles of MB, respect the people who are trying to help, am looking for support, and ultimately want to be a good W to my H and have a healthy marriage.

I fear that some will think I am less deserving of any of that because of I am a FWW. And I guess I am trying to wrap my brain around that myself.

I am not inclined to help someone who comes here with hostility and disrespect; someone who admittedly has been here for years and never bothered to learn a single thing about Marriage Builders.

Why not take the time to actually LEARN the program instead of expecting forum members (for whom you disrespect) to spoon feed you? Our marriages are affair proofed and happy because we used this program. You have the same opportunity.

PJ --

I guess the question is why haven't you implemented the tools to make your marriage affair proof?

You can only fight infidelity so many times.
Why fight it again, if you're not going to AFFAIR-PROOF it after you've won that battle....

It IS one tough fight.

You have to study so much more to find the gaps in your knowledge of it.

See what your snooping discovers.

PoeticJustiss, I do not usually participate in WH/BW discussions, but I think I will in this case, if you don't object.

I will operate as if you are a neophyte to this community - no infidelity history, no previous visits, no "baggage".

Here is what this site would tell you:

Start STUDYING the valuable principles on this marvelous site. This is in parallel to mobilizing to fight the situation your WH has put you in.

SNOOP to get as much information as possible on his EA - length of time, depth of involveement - and on his AP - marital status, e-address, facebook. This will involve putting a keylogger on any computer he uses that you can access, putting a VAR in his car, and in any room at home that he would use to take private calls. Start compiling a file of electronic records of their affair in your electronic possession (ie: the pictures of her breasts; all texts; audio phone records)

Say NOTHING of your suspicions to your WH.

Keep us advised as to what you find.

Dig in. This will become a fight. He will probably fight dirty using YOUR transgressions as justification for his. Gird yourself NOW with the knowledge that a transgression one way cannot justify a retaliatory violation.

My question is: what do you think is going to be different on Marriage Builders this time? You've been betrayed, you've been the betrayer, and now you're being betrayed again. In all that time, MB's concepts for building an affair-proof marriage have remained the same. I don't want to kick you when you're down, but it sounds like you've come to this site to affair-proof your marriage by osmosis. That doesn't work. Reading the articles and agreeing with the concepts is all well and good, but that will gain you nothing if you don't put those concepts to work in your marriage.

We can't 'fix' your marriage. YOU have to do the work. What work would you say YOU have done?

I will not judge you as being 'deserving' or 'undeserving' of help. We have plenty of FWW's on here, and I'm sure they can agree that the main point to being here is not to be judged, but to learn and implement these tools into their marriage, so they never commit such a terrible act again.

However, if you try to justify your infidelity because of some perceived shortcoming on your BH's part, you will be quickly called out. We don't have patience for waywards when they point the finger of blame at everyone but themselves. Just so you know.

Most of us think the "less deserving" are those who come here and reveal they are too lazy to do the work themselves.

The labels FWW/FWH or BW/BH are never a deterrent to us helping the person who is willing to work hard.

You may think you are acting with *humility* when you extend your neck and assume we want to bite it because you once had an EA.
We don't.
But, we won't help someone who think's we are a bunch of bitter nasty betrayed spouses either.

How about a *do over*?
You got off on the wrong foot.

ASK for help and STATE what YOU are willing to do yourself.

I did try to implement the MB principles in my first marriage...but I think my discovery of them was too late, because my H was already in an Affair. And nothing I did to meet his emotional needs was received. I went on in that fashion for several months (Plan A) then went on to Plan B for even longer. He eventually decided he was "done" and filed for D.

Admittedly, with my second marriage, I obviously didn't make the MB principles the centerpiece of our marriage, or I would have never allowed myself to get into that position with the OM that I got myself in...nor would I be facing what I'm facing now with my WH (that is the BIG DUH that everyone is talking about).

PoJA and PoRH are obviously missing. We have focused on Emotional Needs (emotional bank account, love busters, etc), PoUA...but without the other 2...

Thanks for everyone's honesty and taking the time to comment.

I'll start reading like crazy.

PJ, that is a good start; my suggestion would be to start with busting up the affair. Once you do that, then implement extraordinary precautions to affair proof your marriage. It sounds like neither one of you have appropriate boundaries and have left yourselves wide open for an affair.

OMG...my stomach hurts so bad.

I loaded a keylogger on WH's blackberry. He's been texting her all day. Telling her he's jealous that she's talking to other guys (part of her job) and calling her. Now, I just went on FB, and I am locked off of his wall.

When I was talking to him this morning, I gave him a chance to come clean.

When I saw the FB thing just now, I called him and asked him what the deal was, and he said that he has no idea, he didn't do that on purpose, etc. Again, I told him, is there something going on?

He says "Are you questioning my loyalty?!" Gasp...

How do I just sit here collecting info and don't confront him? At what point do I confront him?

STOP!

You are seemingly intentionally sabotaging your ultimate ability to kill this affair. What part of "Do not tell your WH of your suspicions," is unclear?

You are merely warning him to be sneakier, to get a pre-paid cell, to tell his AP to be on her guard, to allow both of them to start the "PJ is an irrational jealous witch," rumors that will offset your exposure.

Do not confront him. Stay in "snoop and gather" mode.

Neverguessed: OK. Hear ya loud and clear.

Here is what I have found:
Duration: Probably since about mid-May, from what I can tell on his cell phone records. It is intensifying, because he is texting her a LOT...basically all day long (especially since I bought the BB for him). I have downloaded about 3 months worth of cell phone records. She has sent him a LOT of pictures, but, apparently the one I saw last night, according to his text that I read, was "too precious to delete." So, he views them then junks them.

He had downloaded some weird messaging apps onto his line...so, not sure if it was an accident, or something he was using to text and bypass the cell phone. But, he isn't too worried about that now.

OW: She is an unmarried, younger, sorta blue collar chic who apparently has a daughter, but, does not have custody (hmmm...not a good sign to start). She does not live where we live, but rather thousands of miles away. I know where she works, her email address, her cell phone, work phone, boss' name.

WH works for a very small, Mom and Pop manufacturing company and she works for one of his largest suppliers. I get the impression she is related to the owner of that supplier. So...yeah.

FB: They have been stupid enough to exchange a few notes via FB. That is probably what made him panic and wise up and change his privacy statuses. I also know his password info...not sure how long that will last.

So now what? Do I completely drop the conversation, and try like hell to act totally normal tonight or do I try to apologize for being jealous and acting irrationally (so as to not tip him off)?

At what point to I confront him with all this stuff?

Actually, you never confront him.

In a summary, here is a preview of what will happen:

(This is an extract of NeverGuessed's Betrayed Husband Survival Kit. Please make the necessary gender adjustments.)

1- KEEP ALL THESE ARRANGEMENTS SECRET FROM YOUR WAYWARD WIFE!
2 � Put a keylogger on any computer you can access that she might use.
3 � Put �Flexispy� on any cellphone that she might use.
4 � Put a GPS on her car, reporting to your computer.
5 � Put a VAR in her car, and in any room she might use to take �personal� calls
6 � Get a mini-audio-recorder, and have it in your possession and �on� whenever in her presence.
7 � Put together an e-address list of anyone who might have influence on her � parents, siblings (sisters, especially), coworkers/superiors, college friends, clergy, hairdresser, anyone.
8 � Put together a similar list for the POSOM.

WHEN YOU HAVE SUFFICIENT EVIDENCE,
9 � Put together the electronic evidence for each AP.
10 - Write a cover note for your wife�s contacts, to the tune of: �I must unhappily inform you that my wife, XXXXXX, is carrying on an illicit affair with YYYYYY. I am hoping to recover our marriage, and ask if you have any influence over her, to urge her to abandon her cheating lifestyle and return to me and our family. Her cell number is 111-222-3333�
11 � Write a similar note to POSOM�s contacts.
12 � Send out both packages, to all contacts at one time.
13 � Brace yourself.

At this point, he will confront YOU!

Well, last night was very emotional.

WH confessed to me about OW. He said he has never met her in person. He just knew of her from his supplier. He didn't even usually have a reason to communicate with her due to the department she was in, but worked with her on a rare occasion when his normal contact was on vacation. Flirtation started then. She started to text him...then it went from there intermittently for several months, intensifying the last 5-6 weeks or so. Most of his interaction (90%) with her has been via text with a few phone calls to his cell.

I was surprised to learn that it has been going on for much longer than I knew (since 12/2010, actually).

He was very remorseful. We talked about no contact, withdrawal, breaking the pattern/addiction of contact with her. We agreed on a plan of action on no contact (wrote the letter together). He closed his FB account, and has deleted her info from his phone (I can probably block her number, actually, via my cell provider, too). We both agreed to give each other full access to email accounts, cell phones, voicemail, etc.

He is saying that he is really vested in the marriage (he says he never had plans to leave). He said he actually felt kind of relieved that it is now over.

He shared with me that my previous A from 2 years ago is actually more painful to him now than it was then, because he now has a better understanding of the emotional attachment to the OM that I must have inappropriately forged then. He has a right to feel that way and a different vantage point at this point. He says he regrets not asking me more questions about it then. I told him about the Policy of Radical Honesty, and that he could ask any questions he wanted about that.

He is saying all the right things. I am proceeding with cautious optimism while waiting for actions to back up the words. He is not aware that I am monitoring his cell activity via a keylogger (but, that is easy enough to get around with a pre-paid cell or something). I am still going to install the voice activated audio recorder in his car (since the recent conversations with her mostly occurred in the car on the way to work or coming home from some activity, etc.).

We talked about entering counseling together. I talked about taking the Marriage Builders courses (either via books, workbook, or on of the formal study courses). I think counseling would be good, but, then again, there is a part of me that is afraid of the kind of advice we'd get from a counselor could ultimately be more destructive than helpful (depending on their methods, philosophy, etc.).

Guess it is not appropriate to start talking about "recovery" until after withdrawal and until I am confident that he is in fact no longer communicating with her.

After talking to him about how it all came about, what they talked about, etc., she was filling some of his particular emotional needs, especially admiration, physical attractiveness (hmmm...my personal opinion in this regard is irrelevant), and sexual fulfillment. Even though they have not had the opportunity to have sex (that I know of), she would send pics of her breasts in pretty bras, they would talk of lingerie, what he or she is gonna do for/to each other, etc.

Thoughts?

What behaviors are you requiring from both you and WH as
extraordinary precautions
to prevent future infidelity

???????????????

[video:youtube][/video]




Here's a *hint* about extraordinary precautions.

PoeticJustiss

i am concerned that he might be just hiding it better and only time will tell.

So easy to buy another phone, set up new accounts, etc.

If he was using another application on his phone it might be Yahoo chat so it does not show what the texts say.

You need to expose at work. Plain and simple. Without this they will be contacting each other again.

Stay silent about exposure -- just do. Watch and be silent