I am getting the feeling that this is more about historical honesty about previous relationships than any adulterous affairs.

Granted, I have not read all 1400 of his posts. I could be wrong.

Clearly one of these "affairs" was while Mrs. Gamma was a girlfriend only. Was that the PA that concerns you so much?

Um it doesn't mitigate their effect on the marriage! EAs have a dangerous effect on your wife's feelings for you. EAs and the PA require INSISTANCE on a FULL MB recovery.

An addiction to an EA is the same as addiction to a PA effects wise. This is akin to saying: "Oh I hated the heroin but didn't mind her alcoholism. So we didn't bother treating her alcholism"

Men are given specific timescales for staying in Plan A for a reason.

Do you intend on keeping the timescale? How long have you been trying to Plan A her into recovery? If more than six months its time for Plan B.

Women don't need longer than that.

If you wait until your patience wears out, while she assumes she's got off with it scot free, then you might as well D now.

If you're patience wears out, then you're done. Recovery over. But if you Plan B she gets a genuine shot to come clean before you become a heart broken 'emasculated' wreck who is compared to OM like you were both a pair of shoes in the store.

CWMI,

more about historical honesty about previous relationships than any adulterous affairs.

No I think she has been clear about what she did before she was with me and I am accepting of that.

Clearly one of these "affairs" was while Mrs. Gamma was a girlfriend only. Was that the PA that concerns you so much?

Yes that was OM2, however she continued to work with OM2 after we married and wanted to divorce me I think it was about 1 year into the marriage, I suspect because she was pining for OM2. Also judging from the ages of OM2 children it seems he got married at about that time.

To my mind it is completely irrelevant that we were unmarried at that time, particularly since she did not disclose what happened to me. It is no more or no less a reason for divorce than an affair during the marriage.

God Bless
Gamma

Indie,

If you are muddying the waters talking about her orgasms she'll be completely baffled.

Never have that's just an private account I keep on the balance sheet of sex.

It is impossible for an unrepentant wayward to feel anything real for her H.

She doesn't get that point, thinks a person should be honest, but with "love".

God Bless
Gamma

SugarCane,

I don't think you have ever given us a clear timeline.

OM1, 1983'ish, my former best friend, fairly sure it was only emotional, I took care of OM1 case closed.

Married 1990

OM2, 1988-1990, my former co-worker, seemed to be emotional, then physical, then emotional.

OM3, 2003/4?, didn't know about this one she revealed it when I spoke to her about 1, 2 and 4. Around that time OM3 got divorced, but I did see him out and about with different women so I can't say it was my W.

OM4, 2008, really old guy very very unlikely it was physical, was giving my W gifts, she was taking him places, he was heartbroken over the end of contact with my W.

2008 found MB put an end to activity with OM4, couldn't believe W was telling me things OM4 was saying to her that other WW posters on MB were saying their OM had said to them. I was shocked to learn how scripted affairs actually are and that OM read their lines off of a laminated card.

Prior to MB I wanted to do something horrible to OM4s grandchildren.

God Bless
Gamma

Writer1

Much of what you're asking may simply be gone from your wife's memory at this point. I'm sure she may be able to recall some things, but I seriously doubt she will be able to remember every little detail, and much of what you are asking for are very specific details.

If she claims not to know that's ok as it creates an opening for a polygraph. I also intend to error check by speaking with OM2.

Don't give details, but about your recent affair would you be able to answer some percentage of the kinds of questions I've stated?

God Bless
Gamma

I honestly think you should insist on a polygraph no matter what. After so many years of dishonesty, you're never going to have the answers you need.

And, no, I don't think I would be able to answer many of those questions, and my A ended about 4 1/2 years ago. Honestly, at this point, I wouldn't even be able to answer something as simple as how many times the OM and I were intimate, let alone exact details about what happened when we were. But then, my H and I are well past the point of talking about those things. Dr. Harley has always recommended not talking about the A once it is over and the BS's questions, whatever they may be, have been answered.

How are you including something from seven years prior to marriage as an affair? It simply is not.

CWIM,

How are you including something from seven years prior to marriage as an affair? It simply is not.

I didn't necessarily include it as an affair, but it did create changes in our relationship, and I did exact a steep price from OM1.

That my W still felt guilt about OM1 when we spoke about it a few years ago, does however illustrate that time does not erase some effects.

God Bless
Gamma

You didn't answer my question about D Days. When did you find all these out?

Also:

The relationship with "OM1" took place years before your marriage. You said that you "took care of OM1 case closed". What does that mean? Did you beat him up?
Did you find out about him and "take care" of him before you got married? If so, you knew about the relationship before you got married, and effectively drew a line under it by getting married. If you knew about this before you got married, there is no "OM1" - or at least, it's not him.

What happened in that relationship? You describe it as an EA. Was it reciprocated - an EA on both sides, or was it a one-sided infatuation?

Did any of the affair with so-called OM2 overlap your marriage

What kind of affair happened with "OM3"? Was it physical? Was it reciprocated?

Again: when did you find out about these relationships?

Gamma,

Were you a virgin on your wedding night?

If not, did you have pre-marital sex with your wife?

Had you been with any others besides just your now wife...pre-marriage?

Mr. Wondering

MW,

Were you a virgin on your wedding night?

No.

If not, did you have pre-marital sex with your wife?

Yes possibly 3x as much as for my entire marriage.

Had you been with any others besides just your now wife...pre-marriage?

Yes, 5, after I started dating W 0 including emotional affairs.

The reason for this line of questioning?

God Bless
Gamma

SugarCane,

You didn't answer my question about D Days. When did you find all these out?

OM1 - not sure, my W came to me crying about him, must have been soon after W fell for him, it was revealed very quickly as far as I know. When I asked her about it a few years ago my W claimed to have forgotten about it at first.

OM2 - Dday was about 6 months before we married I think.

OM3 - Dday was when I questioned her about OM1,2 & 4 a few years ago and she revealed OM3.

OM4 - Dday was when I started reading MB in 2008 and I was shocked that many of the signs of an EA were present. I would always have assumed before that a man that old could not engage in an affair.

The relationship with "OM1" took place years before your marriage. You said that you "took care of OM1 case closed". What does that mean? Did you beat him up?

That could still happen, but no i did not beat him up, in some ways what I did was worse.

Did you find out about him and "take care" of him before you got married?

Yes before I got married I think I waited about 5 years to strike.

Did any of the affair with so-called OM2 overlap your marriage

Yes she continued to work with him after we wed, and wanted to divorce me about a year into our marriage.

God Bless
Gamma

What took place with OM3?

I don't even know what to think of OM4...I am concerned that it is a case of knowledge plus wild imagination. Did your wife have romantic feelings for him?

By marrying her, you effectively forgave any indiscretions that you learned of prior to marriage. Please stop considering these to be affairs. They're not.

There just seems to be an awful lot you don't know, I'd say a Poly is a must.

And where are you in the MB Plans?

Not recovery.

If this is Plan A, its six months for her to show remorse and commit to recovery or she's out..

Are you working an MB Plan to an MB timescale?

Has she been given the specific MB recovery conditions?

Indie, are you catching the part where "OM1" and "OM2" were both before marriage, and he knew about them prior to marrying her?

Just determining that abstinence wasn't your personal standard nor the standard you expected of the women you dated (and eventually chose to marry).




Which brings me to this statement. It is a ridiculous to state, on MARRIAGE BUILDERS no less...that "it is completely irrelevant that we were unmarried". Marriage matters. Were you a virgin and she was running around on you having sex and she married you letting you believe she was a virgin...then perhaps you'd have cause but YOUR STANDARD is fornication is OK. Though you THOUGHT you were exclusive....she was just shopping around WHILE SHE WAS SINGLE which is every persons right. In fact, at MB we encourage people to date 50 or so persons before settling on a mate upon whom to commit and MARRY. Exclusivity is truly only to be expected AFTER marriage.

I also notice you just told Sugarcane that YOU KNEW about OM#2 BEFORE you married her. The fact you followed through with marrying her wipes that slate clean. The fact they worked together thereafter was an MB mistake but it's not a character flaw or anything resembling adultery unless she continued having any sex with him.

Sure emotional affairs are hurtful. Very hurtful...but they ARE NOT adultery. I personally find it very offensive that you are even posting calling them OM#1 and OM#2 on the SAA form where so many are hurting from REAL affairs. OM#1 and OM#2 weren't even OM's at all but your competition for your wife's hand in marriage. So what they you weren't auditioning other potential mates....she was...and that was her right (although it's not nice to cheat on your boyfriend). In the end, you SHOULD BE secure and flattered that she chose you. Years later asking questions about the penis size of guy she DATED before you were even married is just downright juvenile and offensive.

As far as OM#3 and OM#4...I see MISTAKES and your wife reading and learning enough after the non-reciprocated pursuit of her by OM#4 to understand that OM#3 was really an emotional affair. I commend her for coming clean. Sounds like she didn't know and got caught up in something but it's great she pulled herself out of it (many don't...look around). It's still not adultery. I don't think you could call her a wayward wife or former wayward wife. IMO, unless you've got more that what you've disclosed, I find the idea of hooking her up to a polygraph machine just crappy and completely counterproductive to your rebuilding any kind of loving marriage of extra-ordinary care....the point of this forum.

Perhaps your wife just isn't that into sex. Maybe she has a sexual aversion....maybe not. Lots of girls/women have plenty of sex when they are single (and give it up in a misguided attempt to land a man) but when the marry just aren't that interested. The notion that her aversion and lack of orgasms years later has anything to do with some guy she dated a year or so more before you married is just ludicrous.

That's not to say you can't divorce her should you choose to...but I don't see you having any biblical right to divorce and thus, moving on a more vigorous lover would likely make YOU the adulterer. In other words, I don't see a biblical out for you here. Perhaps a consequence of your premarital fornication. Considering what appears to be your distubring hangups regarding the premarital sexual activities of your wife, perhaps you'd have been better off marrying a virgin.

Mr. Wondering

Also...

LOTS of marriages have a rough first year of marriage....ESPECIALLY if they were living together before marriage. That is not any indication of adultery or latent feelings for a guy she dated a year or so BEFORE you married her.

Were you guys living together too pre-marriage???

Mr. W

MrWondering,

latent feelings for a guy she dated a year or so BEFORE you married her.

My W and I were dating for 8 years or so before marriage with the understanding that we were exclusive to each other. So I never objected to anyone my W was with before me.

But the other reason I need to understand what happened is that OM2 got away without a scratch.

God Bless
Gamma

YOU KNEW about these and married her anyway. You knew she wasn't exclusive.

YOU KNEW!!! Stop hounding her about it already!

What happened with OM3?