AGG, there have been a lot of posts in between this one and your previous one, and while responding to various posts from others, I couldn't help but think in the back of my mind, "AGG's probably shaking his head reading all this - he and I are talking about the importance of alone time and here I am in conversations over what to do about my girlfriend's son." It's conflicting to talk about taking a break while at the same time talking about how to deal with a roadblock in our relationship. I should make a decision to either work on the relationship or not. That's the conflict that started this thread. I've learned a lot since then, but I guess I'm still conflicted.

One thing I've resolved in my mind since yesterday is that I don't need to date in order to figure out what I want. (Haven't resolved the part of needing alone time though; I believe it, just not sure how to do it.) It could've been overlooked in the previous posts, but what do you think about using MB questionnaires to assess whether or not my girlfriend and I are a good match? We've only done one questionnaire, emotional needs, and I know there are at least 2 others (love busters and recreational enjoyment). We found that our top 4 needs are the same for both of us: Recreational Companionship #1, Intimate Conversation #2, Sexual Fullfillment #3, and Affection #4. Armed with that knowledge, it seems like we're a pretty good match. I know there's no substitute for real-life experience, but after almost 3 years, if I still love her, and we line up well in MB questionnaires, do I really need to date in order to know that we're good for each other?

Another thing I've resolved is the reason for taking a relationship break. Like you said, it's not to date others, it's to have alone time. But I think the overall reason for the break would be for the benefit of my current relationship. The alone time would allow me to make sure that I'm centered and can make a better relationship partner for my current girlfriend. In other words, I'd be doing it for us in addition to doing it for me. If I continue in the relationship wondering if things could've been better by having some alone time, I may never feel 100% committed; there might always be a small doubt. I'm sure you'll have something to say about that reason for a break, but that's my current thinking.

If taking a break for the reason I just mentioned is good, the next thing to work on is the mechanics of the break. Should it be totally non-contact? Should we place a time-limit on it? Since the break is not for the purpose of dating, I think we should say no dating, but what if I felt like it? Or what if she feels like it? Do we renegotiate the break? Or is it ok to act independently. These are all questions she and I will have to agree on (using POJA I hope!), but if you or anyone else has some thoughts on this, it would help. Thanks.

That's a nice way of putting it. Pepperband once chided me in good nature for being an engineer-type, and we engineers do like equations!

From those equations, it's apparent that to affair-proof your marriage, all you have to do is have good boundaries. Not that you'll necessarily have a happy marriage, but good boundaries will prevent affairs.

I think black_raven's point is that even in the case of good boundaries, it's possible for imperfect humans to slip up. In other words, our boundaries may be good, but they're not perfect because we, as humans, are not perfect.

I also wonder about the last equation, the one with unmet needs and good boundaries. If a person with good boundaries is in a relationship with unmet needs that goes on a long time, I think the pressure of the opposing forces (unmet needs vs. good boundares) will become a tremendous burden to bear. If they try everything they can think of to fix the marital problem and are unsuccessful, what do they do? I think some can bear the burden of unmet needs better than others. If they absolutely can't fix the problem, then they're faced with a tough choice: either divorce, or try to stick it out. I think everyone has a breaking point, and if they try to stick it out too long because they don't believe in divorce, I think they're ripe for an affair. If that happens, is it because their once good boundaries weakened?

Very good point. I didn't mean to use a disrespectful term. The stereotype I had in mind was from one of Solomon's proverbs where he says something like it's better to sleep on the roof than live with a {nagging, quarrelsome, contentious} wife. I think what you're saying is, it's even better to address the problem with your wife than sleep on the roof!

That is, good boundaries on BOTH parties' sides...hence, one person CAN destroy a marriage. You don't have to be a psychopath to destroy a marriage...my XH was just a con that deliberately set the stage to live a double life (cake eater), not only with affairs but to scam me financially. It happens. Fortunately, I don't think that's the norm.

Oh, I didn't think you were disrespectful for using the word "nagging." I just think husbands are disrespectful when they say it to their wives.

Disrespectful judgments are an abusive way to get what you want at your spouse's expense. In this case, a man gets what he wants (wife quits complaining) by using the disrespectful and manipulative term "nagging." Note that at the heart of the word is the idea that his wife "should" not complain. Note the word "should," which almost always means you are making a value judgment, i.e., being disrespectful.

Dr. Harley's position is that people should complain in marriage. Respectfully.

Pretty much. Good boundaries certainly make it more difficult to have an affair but a person can choose to chuck his boundaries out the window for a number of reasons.

Simple but not easy, especially if kiddos are involved.

Hi GodGiveMeStrength, thank you for the links you posted earlier this week. I've been busy with work and other things (I'm a C++ developer too btw ), and I finally got around to reading your links, and they were very enlightening. My username is indicative of one of my personality traits, I love to learn, and your links gave me plenty of that, so thank you very much!

As I started reading, I thought to myself that I would try to draw some conclusions from what I found, and I did start taking notes, but pretty much everything I jotted down has already been said in the various threads. Very, very interesting though, thank you.

The post I found most interesting in everything I read was one by Dr. Harley himself (here) in which he addresses "John" who is having problems in a relationship that began as an affair. Near the end of his post, he recommends ending the affair relationship - no surprise there. What intrigued me was what he said afterwards; he offered advice to John on how to save his affair relationship if that's what he wanted to do. That spoke volumes to me showing his compassion and desire to help people, even when they're doing something he discourages. Awesome! It would be wonderful to meet him in person.

Dr Harley helps relationships and marriage.
You are really grasping in desperation to find justification fort your actions.
Marriage was around before Dr Harley was born. Neither Dr Harley, nor Melody nor Jon define what is right or wrong.

Really just quit using these examples. You have a girlfriend and you want to know if you dated too soon? Everyone has told you yes.
Maybe she found another married man to date. Or maybe she emotionally divorced you. Just ask her I suppose.

HDW, I'm curious. Are you currently in counseling?

It was wonderful to meet Dr. Harley in person! Prisca and I got to attend the very last Marriage Builders Weekend seminar, in 2010. We met Dr. Harley, Joyce, and their son Steve, who also counsels with Marriage Builders and had been working with us.

It was also pretty great to talk to Dr. Harley on the radio last year, and gave a much-needed shot in the arm to my efforts in our marriage.

Dr. Harley and Joyce really are full of compassion for marriages and have tried hard to find solutions for people and gone out of their way to help them.

The very last seminar??? You mean there aren't any more? I was hoping to attend one at some point in the future

I am hoping they bring them back at some point in the future.

In the meantime, people can stay pay to view the seminar online and get the same coaching/accountability program that those of us got who went to the seminar in person.

No.

Hmmm, I actually would not be a proponent of taking a break from a relationship in order to try to fix it. That is akin to a "trial separation" in marriage, which Harley frowns on, as do many others.

If your goal is to save the relationship, I would not go into no contact, I would try to work on the issues that are causing you problems. I would definitely not make any committments until those issues were completely resolved, but I would not take a break, unless for some reason you felt that you needed to clear your head. Again, speaking from my experience only, I had several times done just that, but in all cases, once my head was clear, I was able to see how wrong the relationship was for me.

As some great books say, if something is bothering you in your gut or in your head, there is a reason for it, and that feeling should never be ignored, even if you can't clearly explain it. Sometimes it takes some time alone to understand the reason, and in most cases it is an incompatibility of some sort.

So if you feel that you need to understand what's bothering you, a break may be good, but I think it shouldn't need to be more than a couple of weeks. If you need longer than that, then you sort of have your answer - you are better off alone than in that relationship.

I said it before and I'll say it again - if something does not feel right when you are dating, you do not have to force fit it, no matter how much time you already invested in the relationship. There are lots of good matches for you out there, and for every day you invest into Ms. Wrong, you are missing out a day's worth of chances to find Ms. Right. When you meet Ms. Right, you'll know it, you won't need time to think about it .

AGG

Well put, as always, thanks AGG. I haven't seen my girlfriend in about 10 days. The gut feeling that's been growing says it's time to move on, primarily due to the reason you put into words, it feels like I'm force-fitting it, and that's been going on too long. The problem is how to tell her. Even if she's not Ms. Right, I'm sensitive to her feelings. I don't like to be the cause of someone else's unhappiness. And I don't want to just drop off the radar either; I need to talk with her face-to-face. It's a lot easier to THINK about how a conversation with her might go, but a lot harder when it actually happens. Not something I'm looking forward to.

KL, you can simply tell her that she is a good person but not the right fit for you. It's simple, it's true, and it does not attack her. Please understand, ALL people get hurt when "rejected", and she may cry or be upset. Or be shocked. But she can look back and be comfortable that you respectfully acknowledged the truth first and leave it at that.

I dated a man for 2 years and he said the same thing. I was hurt, but looking back, I appreciate the respectful TRUTH being laid out. Simple. And he was right. And I'm sure she'll feel the same way.

Well there you go then, this is the perfect indicator that she was not the one for you, even if through no fault of her own.

Of course you are sensitive to her feelings, but you also know that you don't want to date someone out of pity - what will it lead to, only more time invested and a deeper heartache?

As alis said, you tell her the truth - you think she's a great person, but she's not the right one for you. And you may well hear the argument that you should have known much earlier, she feels used and deceived, etc etc - and your answer is that you really tried to make it work, but that in the end you saw that it was not the right fit, and you let her know as soon as you figured it out, without leading her on.

Reading your posts, it is clear as daylight to me that you think the world of her, and do not want to hurt her. And that speaks very highly of you, you are obviously not a player or a user. But again, you do not want to force fit a poor match, it will only lead to more pain and drama in the end. When you look back at this, you'll see that it will have taught you what to look for in the next relationship, and there should be no regrets about trying this but having it not work out.

But no, no one looks forward to those types of talks, sorry bud!

AGG

KL, this relationship began when you were married, and you are now single.

This woman took an extraordinary gamble by dating an undivorced man and no one has made any vows since then.

Why on earth do you feel bidden to treat this relationship like a marriage? It has never bound either one of you.

Dating relationships should not require work.

The thing that binds you both currently is the dopamine from mutual needs-meeting. It has nothing to do with morality because you are both free! And owe it to yourselves to shop around fully before making a binding vow.

If you are both away from each other for some time, this very temporary bond will fade and you will start to weigh up the relationship in a more logical way, instead of craving a need.

I also think you have not dated nearly enough and your GF has not been compared or put to the contrast effect of how other women meet your needs. She has only been put to the contrast effect of your WW which would make anyone look good.

You must also ensure the one you marry has dated a lot too.

Dr H says "Although my wife was young, I would not have married her if she had not dated so much."

He says that was an important test to show him he was better at meeting her needs.

Joyce freq dated other people while dating Dr H.

When you say that you are scared of your GF finding someone else if you give the relationship a break, what you are saying is one of two things:

Either

1) Your GF will settle for whoever she is with at any given time
Or
2) Someone else could likely be better at meeting her needs, but you think she settle for you without testing that.

One of the ways we show respect for marriage is by realsing that dating relationships are NOT exclusive or binding.

Finding the right person to marry is too important a process to limit selections for the right candidate.

People who indulge in faux marriages, where there are no pesky legalities but they pretend to be exclusive in order to hold on to a temporary candidate for a while.....

....Are renters. Renters are casual about signing leases.

But potential buyers shop around and won't be drawn into temporary agreements because they mean business.

Thanks Alis, AGG, and Indiegirl, all good things to think about.

Coincidentally, a calendar reminder popped up yesterday for an appointment I had scheduled with my therapist. We talked today about the etiquette of breaking up, and I received some good advice on how to handle it. Basic idea: be considerate and keep it simple.

I'll do my best. I'm meeting my GF after work.

Thinking more generally about the experience of this thread, I realize that I came here because an area of my subconscious was troubled, and I was looking for answers. The answers had to come from within, but it was everyone's thoughts posted on this thread that enabled me to put words to my feelings, and putting words to them helped me understand them. Many of you probably knew the answer as soon as I posted the question, but I needed outsiders' perspectives. It was necessary to go through the psychological work in order to arrive at what you could probably see all along; thank you for helping me with that. Everyone's lives are busy, and I appreciate the time each poster took to help.

This thread touched on a couple of sensitive issues and probably caused some tension. I'm the last person who wants to stir things up like that, and I'm sorry for anything I wrote that personally caused you any mental stress. I don't like doing that to anyone.

I've reached closure on my original question and don't have much to follow-up with. I like the advice of several who said I should take some time and center myself before dating again. My head says yes to that. But my heart?...... my heart is not so easy to convince, and I think I'm learning why. Per recommendations from others on these forums (Pepperband comes to mind), I'm reading Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders. In the very first few pages, Dr. Harley writes:

That's what I feel, like I'm wired for it. Taking time for myself and avoiding relationships feels like trying to prevent water from flowing downhill - it's hard to resist nature.