So my wife and i are working on our marriage. We got in a big discussion about our sexual relationship last night. I was attempting to be honest and open with her about the neglect I have felt from a lack of sex in our relationship. We did the emotional need questionnaires the other night and I ranked SF and PA as my top two needs which were very 'off-putting' to her. She felt I was being superficial and basically told me she doesn't believe sexual fulfillment is my top need, but that admiration is. She feels that I seek sex to desire feeling admired, desired and affectionate. She doesn't believe that SF is an emotional need at all. That it's physical need, but that it's not essential for an individual, but rather something that enhances an already good marriage. We're at a point where I'm worn down trying to meet her emotional needs(she says I do a pretty good job now for the most part, and that she has no problem meeting my other emotional needs, but it's a 'hard pill to swallow' to meet my need for sexual fulfillment right now. She has a very typical female response to sex, as explained by Dr. Harley in HNHN's. She doesn't feel that she can have sex with me until she feels emotionally connected to me, that we should 'just date/court' like before marriage and not expect sex at all until her love bank has hit the romantic threshold. I feel that sexual fulfillment is a tool to help us REACH the romantic threshold and should be implemented as soon as possible to assist us in reaching that. I feel my desire to meet her needs waning due to the lack of sex and that this is such a serious issue for me that I feel my love bank being depleted. I feel increasing frustrated, depressed, resentful and desperate. I don't want to feel like this, but I do. I guess I'm struggling with the idea that she has this wanton disregard for my perspective and that she doesn't believe me when I express my needs to her. How should I proceed? Am I off-based for feeling this way?

It isn't really her job to disagree with you when you tell her what your needs are.

HOWEVER, what I would tell you is to NOT push the issue for now.

Focus on meeting her needs the best you can, and focus on getting a bare minimum 20 hours of Undivided Attention in each week meeting the needs of Intimate Conversation, Recreational Companionship, and Affection - if you do this in a mutually enjoyable fashion, SF should come along naturally.

Ok?

Have you read this? http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8120_sex.html

You did the EN questionnaire, correct?

What were her top 5 ENs?

What are you doing to meet them?

How much UA time are you getting?

The answer is in this article. And yes, your wife needs to be courted and needs to feel emotionally attached to you in order to enjoy sex.

NM, do you listen to the radio show? I would recommend it. This subject comes up pretty often. In fact I believe last Thursday's show hit on it a few times.

It's somehow very confirming to hear Dr. Harley himself touch upon your very concerns.

How many hours of UA do you and your wife get each week?

~optimism

I guess I was looking more specifically for answers on Sexual Fulfillment actually being an emotional need or not. UA time is great, FC time has never been better. I'm meeting her needs. However, she doesn't believe Dr. Harley that SF is an actual emotional need. She feels it's a way to meet other needs like admiration and affection, but that in and of itself sexual fulfillment is not an emotional need and it certainly shouldn't be my top 1 in her mind. She thinks of it like a physical need and that I should have self-mastery over it.

My thoughts are she's approaching this with zero empathy from my perspective, the male perspective on what sex means to me. She understands it from the female perspective. I think both sides are valid and need to be blended for fulfillment to be achieved. However, how do I help explain my feelings on the matter to her in a way that she would understand? I try to tell her how I feel and I she says she disagrees with my feelings on the matter. That's the heart of the issue. Her needs are being met. At some point I think it's a conscious choice to start meeting needs, whether feelings dictate it or not.

I'm just a newbie here but I have been listening to TONS of the archives. What I have heard Dr. Harley say about this is you need to ask her what she doesn't find enjoyable about it. Is it the willingness, she just doesn't have the desire? Is there something about it that she doesn't enjoy? She will want to do it if it is fun for her! What does she enjoy about lovemaking? What would make it fun or enjoyable for her? Maybe she needs an hour of talking first? Maybe she needs you to do it in a particular way. Then you make sure that she has what she needs first. I know it might be frustrating for you at first, but the more enjoyable you make it for her the more she will look forward to it and WANT to do it. You don't want her doing it just because it is a need for you. That won't take her motivation very far according to Dr. Harley. The object is to make it something VERY enjoyable for her!!!

We're pretty much victims of the scenario Dr. Harley spells out in Chapter 4 of HNHN. Inexperience on her part, over zealous on my part. Sex hasn't been enjoyable for her and I am trying to negotiate a process to make it enjoyable for her and satisfying for me too. She just doesn't think it should be as important as I do and that it's not really a need. She's content with the way things are now. Abstinent essentially.

Ok, that explains it. You are going to have to just go slow for a VERY long time. Be very patient. When I was first married, I was also inexperienced ( we both were) and it took awhile before it was comfortable for me and he was very, very slow and gently with me for 6 months or so. If you were overzealous and it hurt or was uncomfortable then she has an aversion.. You might search the website for that topic. Sorry, but you need to go very very slowly.

See for us women, this is an emotional, complicated thing. It may well be a need for you, but we aren't going to understand that. ( Grin..ok, maybe I do now in middle age!) But for a long time it was more about being a fun way to bond with my husband. If it wasn't fun for me, then I wouldn't want to do it. If I was mad at my husband, then I wouldn't want to do it. For us, it isn't a switch we can just turn on. It is SO complicated and we have so many switches and if even one of them isn't turned on, then we won't be either. Praying for you!

If you can swing it, you might want to consider counseling with Dr Harley's daughter, Dr Jennifer Chalmers. She resolved this very problem in bitbuckets marriage by showing his wife that sexual fulfillment is as important to a man as her own needs. It resolved their problems.

NeedMeeter welcome to MB! I think your approach is off. You are trying to talk her into believing it's important, so she'll make the effort even though she doesn't want to. Imagine if your coworker came to you with a project you don't think needs to be done. And then he tells you how important it is to him, and "proves" to you you should do it because you're the best qualified one, but you still think it's a stupid project. He may talk you into working on it but you'll still think it's stupid and tedious and monotonous and boring and you'll just do the minimum to get him off your back. That's how selfish demands create aversions.

Instead how about doing your part and approach it like tiredwife is telling you. Explore with her what would make it fun and enjoyable for her too. You are saying you are meeting her needs in your last post, but in your first post you say she has been honest with you that it she isn't feeling reconnected to you yet. That you've only been working on this since "the other day". How could she possibly feel reconnected to you that fast? Have you even gotten any quality UA time in yet? You're making a stumbling block of a very temporary issue.

let me clarify a few things. this isnt some attempt of a week or so. I've been working the marriage builders program for over 6 months now. im not demanding anything, all im doing is voicing a complaint and expressing my needs.the issue is more the disregard for my perspective as she dismisses my point of view as not necessary, wrong or superficial. she doesnt like that i put sexual fulfillment as #1 and physical attractiveness as #2. she 'disagrees' with my feelings on what I view as most important. She doesnt believe SF is an emotional need and certainly not #1, or shouldnt be. i feel shes content with the status quo and I'm not. so im trying to be open and honest with her(her #3 need) and tell her how i really feel. im not trying to demand or request anything, just trying to be understood so maybe shed hbave more empathy for my perspective. im trying to negotiate with her, but how do you negotiate something when she wont acknowledge the issue as negotiable?

I would also 2nd ML's advice about Dr Jennifer Chalmers. It is not unusual for women to undervalue the male need for SF and PA. In fact, many women would scream "divorce!" at the thought of a man expressing his true desire for these needs and telling his wife that she is not meeting them. Perhaps a female counselor like Chalmers can help her understand that this is a (highly valued) true emotional need for men and bring her into understanding. Unfortunately, many husbands don't tell their wives that they require these needs for fear of being labeled a perverted pig of some kind. When a woman is open and willing to understand, it truly benefits both spouses.

All issues should be negotiated in a marriage except those that you have negotiated not to negotiate (like what to put in your sandwich). Easiest is to start with small issues like the time you have breakfast and work up to more challenging topics like this one.

Remember it has to stay respectful and the default is to do nothing. Honesty is crucial, both have to be prepared to say what they really feel.

Preaching to the choir. What if the default is contrary to meeting an important emotional need? What if the default is the desirable outcome for the other spouse. As I understand the program the default is do nothing, but is TEMPORARY, while negotiation is going on. The default is happening, but I'm trying to negotiate a solution. She doesn't even want to talk about it. She's fine meeting all my other needs, but she simply views meeting the need of SF as a 'hard pill to swallow' based on her past experiences she doesn't believe sex can ever be appealing to her with me.

Counseling with the Harley's is a little to pricey. I've emailed the show. But I lost my employment a few weeks ago and currently looking for a job, and I will likely be underemployed for the next year or two when I do find work.

Have you read this? http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5047_qa.html

You can bring her here and some of us women (who have learned to accept the importance of SF/PA male needs) can talk to her too. For free.

She hates online forums in general, and she's barely willing to do the online marriage builders program. I'll try. But I doubt she would. Something she has expressed to me on numerous occasions is that are marital problems are exclusive to us and that I should stop soliciting outside perspective and advice because everyone's situation is different.

I've read nearly every article and QA on the site. I understand the process, it's more just the ability to communicate the message to her. I try, but she feels I am trying to 'sell her' on the program. I'm having a hard enough time exciting her to read Dr. Harley's books. She's almost finished one, and she's committed to at least 1 other. We'll see.

I'm just thrown back more than anything at her response that she doesn't believe SF is actually an emotional need. She said it's just one man's opinion "Dr Harley" and she likes most of his stuff that she has read, but she's not on board with that one.

If it is an important emotional need and an outcome cannot be negotiated, you may have to call it quits on the marriage.


Nope, it is a disrespectful judgement for you to say what is desirable for your spouse.


There is your issue, right there. You do not negotiate 'a solution', you negotiate a problem. You state your issue, she listens respectfully, then she states her issue and you listen respectfully. Together you try to brainstorm solutions that will meet both sides. If you already have a 'solution' that you are trying to sell her on I am not surprised that she is refusing to negotiate. I would do the same!