OK, so I�ve been lurking here for quite a while. It�s probably been at least several months. I�ve tried to put into practice some of the advice on this site, but I�m not sure I�m headed in the right direction with my situation and at last I feel like I need some outside help. In a nutshell, my situation is this: I am in a loveless marriage. Well, I guess it�s not completely loveless. I love my wife very much still, but she no longer loves me.

Just for the record, I�m 37 years old and my wife is 33. We�ve been married just over 15 years, and we have five children. The oldest is a son, age 14. We also have four daughters, ages 12, 9, 6 and 1.

Here is some more background. We met almost 19 years ago, when I was 18 years old and my wife was 15. We actually met on America Online in a chatroom, back in the days when AOL and Compuserve was the main method people had of going online. I remember the computer I was using back then � it was a 486. I connected to the internet by dialing in with a 14.4 modem. We got married about 3 and a half years after we met, when I was 21 and my wife was 18. Our relationship with each other was and is the only romantic relationship either one of us has ever had � we never dated anyone else.

When we were dating and in the early days of our marriage, it seemed like we were so passionate with each other. We used to be able to talk for hours and we would hold hands all the time and everything was so wonderful. Things seemed great even though we were quite different in many respects � she was Protestant, I was Catholic. I was interested in politics, religion and theology, while none of this interested her. I got a college degree and eventually became a computer professional, while she had a high school diploma and stayed home taking care of the kids and the house. None of that seemed like a problem early on. We got married in the Catholic church, and were thus required to take a couple months of marriage preparatory classes, which we did. We even got the book �His Needs, Her Needs� and read it. It seemed like we were really prepared to have a great marriage for life. We also had some good examples of long lasting marriages in our families � her parents were and still are married after 38 years, her grandparents were married for 54 years before her grandfather passed away, and my parents have been married for 43 years. What could go wrong?

Well, the years passed. We had more children and moved from a townhouse to a single family home. It seemed that we would do more and more things separately. My wife has always had a lot of female friends and she would love to hang out with them. I eventually took up cycling and would go out riding. At first my wife would ride with me but eventually she lost interest. We also used to go the gym together, but she wasn�t as dedicated to it as me and eventually stopped going. Early in our marriage we used to always go on �date nights�, when we would typically go out to dinner and a movie or something like that, but eventually that seemed to fall by the wayside as well. We certainly weren�t spending anything close to 15 hours a week together for �undivided attention.� Given all of this, perhaps what happened was inevitable. We grew apart. My wife has changed a lot since we first met � she likes to do different types of things and has different goals for the future than she used to. Mine are mostly the same. My wife says that things really began to deteriorate as long as five years ago or more. From my standpoint though, it seemed like we were doing well as recently as when we were planning on having our fifth child, back in early 2011. I remember that we talked a lot then and had some intimacy. I really began noticing changes a few months after the baby arrived � maybe early 2012. I would say �I love you� to my wife, as I do all the time, and she would no longer say it back to me. She still never does. My wife also lost any and all interest in conversation with me, sex, affection, or anything like that. She no longer wanted to spend time with me. My wife was also experiencing some issues with depression after the baby was born, for which she is still undergoing treatment. She is taking some anti-depressants. My wife also says she isn�t happy with her appearance now and thus feels self conscious about it. Also, about a year ago, my wife�s female friend and her daughter moved in with us (she is divorced and has a bitter relationship with her ex). Initially this was just because they had fallen onto hard times and needed a place to stay. Lately she has been helping us out by cooking dinner and doing grocery shopping and such. My wife also decided to go back to school, and she has been watching the baby for us during the day.

A funny thing about our marriage also is that we hardly ever fight. I can only remember one big fight we had that stands out in our entire marriage. But I suspect a lot of this is because we have both tried to avoid conflict and have hidden our true feelings. At least lovebusters have never been a problem for us.

Finally I realized we were in big trouble, and I began going to the marriagebuilders website. I began talking about it with my wife. After reading up on things myself, I sent her links to the marriagebuilders articles on the Policy of Joint Agreement, the Policy of Radical Honesty, and the Policy of Undivided Attention. I began talking to her a lot about our situation � so much that she has become exasperated with it. I suggested that we follow all of the policies, but she said that the Policy of Joint Agreement was �unrealistic.� So I�ve decided to just start out with the Policy of Undivided Attention. We have started going out for �date nights� once a week again. I have also tried to set aside some time in the evenings for us to talk after the kids have gone to bed. Just this past weekend, I tried to have us work on the emotional needs questionnaire. I filled out mine, but after she initially said she would, my wife refused to fill out hers. She said it was �stupid� that she should have to fill that out after we�ve known each other for 18 years, even though I explained the purpose, and even though we have grown apart to the point where I don�t know her that well anymore. She at least looked at mine and agreed to address some areas, though not enthusiastically. She also has refused to help with certain items on my survey. For example I put that I would like it if we could have intimacy two or three times a week, but she said that was out of the question. Since then she still has not made much effort to engage me in conversation, even though I ranked this as one of my most important needs also (along with affection and sexual fulfillment). My wife would much rather talk to her friend, who lives with us, than talk to me. I suspect the reason that she won�t fill out her Emotional Needs Survey is that she doesn�t really need me for anything. She has no interest in sex or affection. She is able to converse with her friends and would rather do that than talk to me. The one need that I probably do fulfill for her is financial support, but I don�t get any credit or win any points for that. In our latest conversations, she has flat out said that she has no passion for me, and �does not care� about our marriage. I then told her why I thought our marriage was important, not just for us but for the kids and such. She basically nodded but nothing changed. She did say she has no intention to leave. She is content for us to just live as roommates.

As for me, I still love her dearly and am desperate to have a romantic loving relationship with her again. I find her very attractive. I have tried doing everything I can to get back into her life. I�ve asked about her hopes and fears. I�ve sent her notes during the day and have taken her out to nice dinners. But none of it seems to work. She still seems to be in withdrawal. There is a wall erected between us that I can�t seem to take down. Our �undivided attention� times are very awkward because it is hard to maintain conversation. It is me as the �question man� � I ask her questions and she answers, but she never asks about me. She obviously doesn�t care. As a Catholic, I don�t believe in divorce and our five kids need us, but I am also extremely frustrated by this. I don�t know how to make any deposits in her �love bank� because she refuses to tell me about her needs. I�m left guessing and it seems I am guessing wrong. I�ve tried to help more with the kids and domestic support, but this doesn�t seem to win me any points either. Between her and her friend who lives with us, I think she is happy enough to take care of those things without my assistance.

So, because of this, I feel that I�m at the end of my rope. Any ideas or assistance you all could offer would be most appreciated.

Welcome to marriage builders. Sorry you find yourself here.

From my perspective .. part of the reason yourwife doesnt "see" MB very well is because she cant see whats in it for her. From what you have written .. it seems you are trying to "educate" your wife. What you must realize is you can't change her. ONLY yourself.

I see you said your wife goes to school? How long has she been going for? What is she taking? Does she spend lots of time on the PC while at home? ALso having a divorced woman and her kid living in your home may not be very good for your marriage.

Has your wife ever said I LOVE YOU BUT NOT IN LOVE WITH YOU? Its a classic wayward signature speech.

I suggest you covertly place some snooping tools on your PC (keylogger) and put a VAR (voice activated recorder) where your wife frequents chat with this other lady. She could be feeding into your wifes unhappyness.. telling your wife stuff like "youll be better off without him" and stuff like that. ( I hope not)

If your marriage is going down the drain .. the last thing you want is a room mate. I would ask this lady to leave so you can work on your marriage. Hard to have intimate time when this other lady is intruding on your alone time. Let alone 5 kids in the house too .. that HAS to have your wife all touched out by now.

Begin plan A while you do some snooping.. do you know about plan A?

IF you find something ... (your wifes emotional distance is telling me she has a point of comparison) DO NOT confront your wife. Bring it here. WE can guide you with the next steps. Stay calm .. and read about Plan A and start cleaning up your side of the street.

p.s. Have either one of you had ANY affairs .. emotional or physical or both?

MNG

Here is a link to the Plan A and Plan B article.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html

You see ... your not even sure what lovebusters you have committed since neither one of you is honest. YOu are both conflict avoiders. ( I am/was one too and still currently navigating this with my wife but getting MUCH better at it as of late).

Check out this thread. http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2634077#Post2634077 - conflict avoidance "the kiss of death" to marriage

Thanks for the advice Mr.NiceGuy. Here are the answers to some of your questions.

You're right about me trying to "educate" my wife. I don't think that's working for the reasons you've said in some other threads. It's hard to put things into practice though unless my wife participates. I think you or someone advised in another thread for someone with a similar situation, getting one of the marriage builders counselors on board - perhaps that is what I should do.

My wife just started school in January. She is still not yet sure what she wants to major in. She's taking general courses now - she still has a while before she has to make a decision on that. She does spend some time on her computer, doing homework from what I can tell. As far as her friend living with us, I see what you are saying. But she does help us a lot, and my wife would never agree to making her move out. If she did then we'd be in a difficult spot with our youngest daughter in terms of childcare. We'd have to pay for childcare for her, in addition to paying tuition and the various other expenses associated with a large family.

My wife has never said "she loves me but is not in love with me." At first she said she didn't love me, but then amended that to say that she wasn't passionate about me. She did say she didn't care about our marriage.

As for the whole affair thing, I've thought about that a lot. After a lot of thought I really don't think that's the problem. I'm very uncomfortable with the idea of doing too much snooping. It seems that if I was caught doing that it would set us back. She mainly uses her phone for communication anyway, and she has a password on it. She doesn't seem to use the computer much other than for schoolwork. I don't know - I may have to reconsider this - I know that that is the advice that many people have given in this forum in similar situations. Maybe I'm naive for thinking it is not a problem. As far as I can tell my wife is always where she says she is and such, though of course I don't keep track of her during the day when I'm at work. I will read up about plan A though.

As for affairs in the past, I have never had one myself.

As for being conflict avoiders, that is exactly right and that is one thing we talked about. We agreed to try to not be this way in the future. We simply have avoided tough topics in the past and I have said how I thought we should err on the side of too much communication rather than too little going forward.

Hi Pius, welcome to Marriage Builders. My suggestion would be to sign up for coaching with one of the Harley children, Steve Harley or his sister, Dr Jennifer Chalmers. Not because you need counseling, but because your wife needs MOTIVATION. She has clearly fallen out of love because your marriage has been so neglected.

She needs to be motivated by someone who can paint her a clear picture of how to restore the love in your marriage. She doesn't believe she can ever be in love with you again. But if someone would sell her on that idea and show her the PLAN, she might want to get on board.

It is not a good thing that you haven't been fighting; all that means is that she is completely withdrawn from you.

I would try getting coaching, and additionally, pick up the book Fall in Love, Stay in Love. Read it and SELL her on the idea.

Think about what benefits she would get from the program and sell it to her that way. People buy things when there is a perceived benefit. She is not apt to get involved in a program just to meet your needs alone and I am sure she sees it as your way of getting more sex.

And see, once she is motivated, you can both do the program on your own with the help of the forum and the free radio show. You can get the workbook,[$11] the EN series [$20]and a few books and as long as you are both dedicated, you can transform your marriage on your own.

The way I see it, all you guys need is motivation.

And I would do some sleuthing to rule out an affair. Because if there is an affair, nothing we tell you to do will be of any effect. It needs to be ruled out.

I see it as a motivation issue too. Good advice ML.

The coaching center is a great idea.

Review, restate, reinforce;

1) Rule out an affair - not just "I don't think, "Couldn't be possible." Trust me, it's possible.

2) Look into the coaching.

- Be warned, you might get a strong reaction from this as well. It is never a good idea to suddenly spring these things upon an unsuspecting spouse, as you have already found out.

Your best bet is to set aside the money for coaching, and set a future date to begin it. In the interim, research Plan A to the best of your ability. Your LB$ is already in the Red - but, as men we tend to have more endurance for the march of Plan A. 2-3 months would be good.

You can also write the radio show, for free, and you even get a free book if your letter ends up on air!

Thats a red flag for me. My wife NEVER locks her phone. I can go up to her and ask for her phone and she has no issues with me looking into the phone and reading whatever emails and texts she has. She USED to lock her phone .. but after taking on MB realizes that to help ME feel secure in our marriage its better not to lock the phone and give my any reason for suspicion. So she leaves her phone out in the open .. unlocked for anyone to lok at at any time.

She deleted all her "guy" friends from facebook including any of the married guys we know together ... and only kept the wives on her list of those friendships.

Shes an open book to me and doesnt even question when i ask to see her stuff. She leaves her email accounts open on the computer and i have all her passwords to look at anything any time i want. I am so bored of looking at her stuff now i dont even care anymore. SHe even allows me to have a keylogger on BOTH our PCs .. this way we can monitor DD15 now.

Is your wife an open book?

MNG

Quoted for TRUTH!

You can hear directly from Dr.Harley for free ... I would jump on this.

Another thing I believe I heard on the radio show this weekend (fridays clips) Was Dr.harley suggested the caller to ask his wife what she thinks should be done if shes not sold on MB.

You can calmly tell your wife your not happy with your marriage and since shes not interested in your suggestions for marital improvement to politely ask her what SHE thinks you guys should do then to make your marriage happy for both of you. This will give her a chance to give you some feedback on her thoughts without feeling "educated" and interrogated about her lack of involvement.

Also I dont and HOPE its not true. It seems your wife gets alot of her "intimate conversation" need met by this live in friend you have. Possibility your wife is "seeing" her in a romantic way while your at work? Not trying to make you crazy or anything .. just comes with the territory of her not wanting to get rid of the live in friend. Like your wife is protecting her. I understand you kinda need this woman. But if you were to divorce your wife because your "growing apart" what would this woman do then? Shes impeeding on your private time. And with 5 kids in the house (6 actually if you count that womans kid too) Wheres time for you and your wife?

So you need to do some snooping ... and rule that out. Something is missing here.

Heres another few articles for you to ponder.

Caring for children means caring for eachother - http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8112_care.html

Snooping. Is it right or wrong in marriage? - http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8121_snoop.html

MNG

No, and I've been pondering the idea of just asking if she would give me the password to her phone, while offering to give her all of my passwords. I do not have my phone locked but I do have an email account and my laptop has a password. I think at one point I actually gave her a paper with all my passwords. That was in the context of knowing what to do in case something should happen to me. As a cyclist that kind of thing is always a possibility. I was thinking that if I came right out in the open and asked for her passwords, I could judge her reaction. If she showed any hesitation that might tell me something. Other than that I'm not really sure what to do about her phone. Seems like she is getting texts all the time, though she does communicate a lot with female friends and her family.

Sounds very reasonable. Yes, the more I think about it, getting Dr. Harley or one of his associates involved seems like a very good idea. Do you have any suggestions for how I should broach the subject? Since she doesn't seem to care much about our marriage now and is not even willing to fill out the Emotional Needs Questionaire, I can imagine that she might not be that enthused about getting marriage counseling. I very briefly mentioned marriage counseling once, and she said she didn't think we needed it but she thought she might need counseling for her personal issues.

You're also right about the sex thing - that was her first reaction when I began talking about our marriage - "you just want more sex!"

I shall look into purchasing the "Fall In Love" book as well, though I'm worried that I can't sell her on any of this stuff. It just seems like she's satisfied with things the way they are - she has no need for romance. On Valentine's Day, for example, I bought her flowers and suggested that we go out to dinner. She just said "No, it'll be too crowded" and that was it. No sort of romance of any kind.

One easy step is to log on to your account on your service carrier's website and look at the call/text logs.


That's how I busted my wife.


Directly confronting her for a password at this point may be a folly.


Instead, figure out a way to get the call/text log and compare the numbers to known numbers, and look for particular numbers that have a high frequency, increasing at times when you are not around. High # of texts or long calls will be a red flag.


Then, come up with a premise for you needing her phone unlocked; an update, an app, something of that sort - don't let her know you are checking it out. See if you can get it AWAY from her and out of her sight. You can then check contacts vs the call log. On my wife's phone, when I started entering a phone #, it would predict a contact and bring them up. Look for text conversations to a contact to have been conveniently erased before her surrendering her phone.


If you find anything; DO NOT CONFRONT, DO NOT GO OFF. Bring that evidence here and posters can help you develop a plan from there.


Until then, you are pure Plan A, sir.

If I were you, I would get an appointment for yourself with Dr Chalmers and have her tell you what to say to get your wife involved. She might tell you to ask her to come to a session to discuss her personal issues.

The reason I suggest Dr Chalmers is because females do better with women and men do better with men. [heard Dr H say this on the radio] Since sex is a big miss for you, you want that need explained to her by a WOMAN, not a guy.

And I agree that the fact that your wife's phone is password is cause for concern. Please follow HHH's suggestions and quietly do some sleuthing FIRST.

Sounds like a good plan as far as getting an appointment with Dr. Chalmers. I will need to get up the nerve to do some sleuthing. I'm terrified of getting caught though and having it blow up into a fight. I have a hard time being sneaky like that. I'm even having a hard time mentally resisting the urge to tell my wife about this thread. It's odd that I should feel so guilty for trying to find out something as important as this - I don't know - really a struggle. Also I'm not sure I can come up with something plausible for getting her to allow me to look at her phone. Just thinking about that makes me nervous.

I actually did a little research on that, and unfortunately since we have Sprint it is not so easy to get text logs. All of the other carriers apparently put it right on their customer service website (under your account) but not Sprint. Sprint will only send you a paper copy once you jump through some hoops, etc. I was able to look at the call logs and nothing jumped out at me. Of course I didn't recognize all the numbers, but I barely even know my own friends' numbers. They are all just stored in my phone. Right after I write this I'm going to read what this "plan A" thing is.

Pius, I am getting more and more concerned because when a spouse gets mad at such snooping, it is because they have something to hide. People who have nothing to hide, don't hide.

I understand it will uncomfortable, but you need to get over that. Protecting your marriage supersedes your discomfort. That is because if your wife is having an affair, snooping is the WAY to save your marriage. If you show your hand, it will be much, much harder to save your marriage.

There is nothing to feel guilty about. You have a right to know everything your wife does, so your guilt is very inappropriate.

How about right after this, doing a reverse look up on those #s until you have identified them all? Go to whitepages.com and see who they are. If you can't find them there, try googling them. Do you have a safe place to store them?

Also, have you looked through her emails?